Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mail bag

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was a compelex outcome (please see full explanation). I see a consensus to redirect Mail sack, Mail pouch, and Mail satchel to Mail bag. I also see a consensus to redirect Portmanteau (mail) to Portmanteau (luggage). Pony Express mochila should also be sutbifyed per this discussion. Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 14:14, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Mail bag

[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!

• How to contribute
• Introduction to deletion process
• Guide to deletion (glossary)
• Help, my article got nominated for deletion!

Mail bag (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Part of the ongoing Doug Coldwell cleanup, User:SandyGeorgia raised the point on a number of articles included in a DYK of Coldwell: Did You Know that throughout U.S. history, different types of mail bags have been called mail pouch, mail sack, mail satchel, catcher pouch, mochila saddle mailbag (pictured), and Portmanteau (mail) depending on form, function, place and time? And questioned whether many of these articles justify their own article, or should be merged. At the same talk page section, User:Hog Farm suggested that catcher pouch be kept as an independent article, which I tend to agree with, and therefore have not nominated here (although someone else is obviously free to), and User:EEng suggested the possibility of keeping the mochila saddle mailbag article, but stated he was uncertain if it justified it. Thus I bring to AFD's consideration a large list of related articles to discuss how much they justify their own articles. I believe that mail pouch, mail sack, mail satchel should be merged with mail bag, that Portmanteau should be merged with Portmanteau (luggage), and possibly mochilla should be merged with mail bag, although I am less certain on that matter. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 07:40, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

• Other Articles considered list:

  Mail sack (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

  Mail pouch (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

  Mail satchel (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

  Pony Express mochila (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

  Portmanteau (mail) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: History and Transportation. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 07:40, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
• Merge with Mail bag: Merge everything with the mail bag article except the Portmanteau page which should be part of the related Portmanteau page. Gusfriend (talk) 08:00, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

  So the portmanteau page should omit Portmanteau? EEng 09:16, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

  I was agreeing with the proposal "that Portmanteau should be merged with Portmanteau (luggage)". I should clarify that by merge I mean redirect to Mail bag (and Portmanteau) and keep anything that happens to be useful which may not be much leave us with just a stub and a couple of references. Gusfriend (talk) 20:51, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

  What I meant is the portmanteau mailbag article will not be receiving the merge from the Portmanteau (mailbag) article. Instead, the Portmanteau (mailbag) article will be merged to the portmanteau Portmanteau (luggage) article. I hope that's clearer. EEng 17:48, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

• Wait, it's Doug Coldwell content, and we want to merge it anywhere? Isn't that just going to make it more difficult to track down the copyvios, the unreliably sourced material, and the downright bizarre? I spent about half a minute looking at the history of mail pouch and found overly close copying from 2012 that was still in the article until today. XOR'easter (talk) 12:38, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

  This is why I know not how to handle this mess (and appreciate that Iazyges brought it forward here for discussion). I opine that most of this content needs to go away, but await feedback from others as how to best effect that. XOR, perhaps by "merge" we mean we only copy the sources over in case they are useful, and delete all the content, as almost all DC articles have a combination of original research, failed verification and copyright issues. Particularly since presumptive deletion applies to all DC content, and manually examining the sources is time-consuming (that is, we would not copy any content anywhere under the presumption that applies, and all of these articles are basically all DC content, allowing for subsequent technical edits by 7&6). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:14, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

  My current inclination is to redirect all the others to mail bag and clean up that one, maybe by stubbifying it and going from there. Nothing except the sources can be carried over, and often the sources just aren't that good. XOR'easter (talk) 15:02, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

  I suppose that just redirecting and stubbifying is an easier path than merging and stubbifying. Mostly just think that the others have no business being articles on their own, however we want to achieve that. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 19:14, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

• Delete: Another Coldwell phony. Toddst1 (talk) 14:37, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
• All this stuff should be in a single article, probably mail bag. Coldwell made a bunch of forks for reasons only he knows. @Iazyges: Catcher pouch is another Coldwell mail-related article that should be considered. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 13:39, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

  @Trainsandotherthings: I excluded catcher pouch intentionally because IMO it can stand on its own. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 13:43, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

  Catcher pouch definitely should be an article (though maybe there's something it could merge with), but it's full of the usual DC drivel. EEng 22:48, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

  It was probably done because of DC's fascination with multiple-hook DYKs (this isn't the only example): Template:Did you know nominations/Mail bag, Mail sack, Mail satchel, Mail pouch, Catcher pouch, Pony Express mochila, Portmanteau (mail). And DYK is complicit in this sort of content. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:49, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

To give some credit where it's due, the original reviewer of that multi-hook DYK, Orlady, identified many typical DC issues – misconstrued sources, too-close paraphrasing, parochial content, possible length padding – in these articles and this was a decade before the DC situation blew up. But after a gap in activity, another editor stepped in and approved it. Wasted Time R (talk) 22:23, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

• Redirect and stub Presumptive deletion of DC content and excessive number of content forks. (t · c) buidhe 22:18, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
• Merge All and then remove potentially offending content. Reywas92^Talk 22:44, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

  Presumptive deletion applies to all DC content, and anyone doing any merging then becomes responsible for any copyvio they move to another article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:02, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

  That just makes the bad content harder to find. Why bring extra trouble upon ourselves when the task is already plenty hard enough? XOR'easter (talk) 14:58, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

  Reywas92 could you please have a look at what you are suggesting? Your proposal would have another editor re-creating potential copyvio in another article-- which puts the editor doing that in an interesting spot. All of DC's content is subject to presumptive deletion, and only some of the sources are even worth saving. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:27, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

  Okay, remove the offending content first, then merge what's left. Or agree with Hog Farm below. Reywas92^Talk 13:13, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

• Redirect Mail sack, Mail pouch, and Mail satchel to Mail bag, and redirect Portmanteau (mail) to Portmanteau (luggage). If any references are useful, they can be migrated over to the other articles as further reading. Keep Pony Express mochila as that seems to have separate coverage - this, this, and this are all presumably reliable enough, and it looks like other coverage exists. Hog Farm _Talk 01:58, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
• Redirect Mail sack, Mail pouch, and Mail satchel to Mail bag, and redirect Portmanteau (mail) to Portmanteau (luggage). Do not merge any content other than references. I can't stress this enough. DC's material is a slog to clean up, and shuffling it into another page just gives it a false imprimatur. Stubbify Pony Express mochila to give it a clean start. XOR'easter (talk) 15:02, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
• Redirect Mail sack, Mail pouch, and Mail satchel to Mail bag, and redirect Portmanteau (mail) to Portmanteau (luggage). Save only those sources that are useful and reliable. Stubbify Pony Express mochila to avoid copyvio issues, per WP:PDEL and WP:DCGAR. (Per XOR and HF and WP:PDEL.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:54, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
• As nom, vote per above for Redirect Mail sack, Mail pouch, and Mail satchel to Mail bag, and redirect Portmanteau (mail) to Portmanteau (luggage). Save only those sources that are useful and reliable. Stubbify Pony Express mochila to avoid copyvio issues, per WP:PDEL and WP:DCGAR. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 13:34, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
• Merge/redirect as suggested by the last few contributions. There is nothing much in the article but a dictionary definition and even that seems to be excessively US-centred. Peterkingiron (talk) 14:51, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.