Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Muslim sportspeople

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete.  Sandstein  10:42, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

List of Muslim sportspeople

List of Muslim sportspeople (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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Indiscriminate list. As over 90% of the population of Pakistan and other countries are Muslim this list could go on forever. What about a list of Christian, Buddhist, Jewish, atheist sportspeople, where do you draw the line?? Ajf773 (talk) 12:01, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. Ajf773 (talk) 12:01, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sports-related deletion discussions. Ajf773 (talk) 12:01, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

• Keep - I'm not really seeing a compelling reason why this should be treated differently than other "List of Muslim PROFESSION" articles, like List of Muslim philosophers or List of Muslim writers and poets. Beyond that, I think the spirit of PRESERVE may apply here, since this is a pretty substantially worked on list, at 60k+ and nearly 200 references. TimothyJosephWood 12:28, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
  • I'm not seeing a compelling reason why we should keep based on other examples which arent' anything like the article in question. WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS applies. Most of the references are just player profiles and give away almost nothing about their faith. Ajf773 (talk) 12:34, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
• Relevant (though not determinative) discussion at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2013 October 2#Category:Muslim sportspeople as to why the corresponding category was deleted. postdlf (talk) 15:04, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
• Keep Notable list topic and other similar articles exist for Muslims as pointed above, as well as List of Jews in sports (of which List of Jewish sportspeople is a redirect), etc. Smartyllama (talk) 15:26, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
  • See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jews in sports (3rd nomination), kept at least in part due to sources expressly focused on the topic of Jewish sportspeople. I guess our question here is, do we expect this particular list to pass WP:LISTN such that this grouping itself has been covered (are there sources about Muslims in sports generally?), or do we accept that "people by religion and occupation" is generally a valid way to list people such that we don't need a specific justification for each such intersection of a religion and occupation? postdlf (talk) 18:40, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
• Delete the page is too general to be useful. Could become a category page, or be replaced by more specific pages (e.g., list of American Muslim sportspeople). Power~enwiki (talk) 18:43, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
  • There would be more merit in doing this. As I said before we would have to include practically every cricketer who played for Pakistan or Bangladesh (bar a few exceptions), however we couldn't list a great deal of Australian, British Muslims, etc. Ajf773 (talk) 20:19, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 19:15, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Islam-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 19:15, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

• Comment - Thinking about User:postdlf's question, google books finds many books about Muslim athletes in general. And specifically, being a Muslim athlete is often a notable part of an individuals biography - there are many stories about how a Muslim athlete dresses or what a Muslim athlete does during Ramadan when many Muslim's fast. Lists of Muslim athletes are also common[1]. However, there are many athletes who happen to be Muslim, but their religion is more or less irrelevant, including some individuals on the huffpo list to which I just linked. On the other hand, as the nominator suggests, the article could easily be increased many times in length by looking for Muslim Olympians and international level athletes from Mulsim majority countries. For this reason, I think the list is a bit indiscriminate and not very helpful for navigation. Smmurphy^(Talk) 19:58, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
• Comment - There is an underlying assumption in the list that references are required only for players who are from nations where Muslims are in a minority. Also many references do not explicitly state that the said player is Muslim, relying instead on names that sound Muslim, or family backgrounds that touch upon the Muslim upbringing, without mentioning the player's personal beliefs. What I however intend to convey is not associated with WP:AFDISNOTCLEANUP, but to the fact that the intersection between religion and sports is always a forced one. However WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is a valid reason not to delete as well as I personally feel that Jews and Muslims are two sides of the same coin when it comes to religiosity, and the reason why such articles even exist also has got to do with that. A WP:TNT to create a list of American/French/British Muslim sportspeople as mentioned above, may be a better option, as the co-relation between sports and religion is more pronounced (and probably only exists) in cases where Muslims are a minority. Jupitus Smart 15:54, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 20:44, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 10:35, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

• Weak delete as currently established. Per a lot of the commentary above, there's something to be got out of a list like this, and possibly a couple of somethings. While the list could currently (and mercifully doesn't) list just about everyone who's ever competed at a high enough level for several countries, the point is well-made that the religiosity of certain Muslim sportspeople is a notable thing - Hashim Amla and his cricket kit without certain sponsor logos comes to mind immediately, and I'm sure I've read things about the impacts of Ramadan for people doing things like distance running and playing basketball. In other cases, the athlete is known for being outspoken about "Muslim things" (Anthony Mundine, although he was outspoken before he converted anyway). If the sentiment is against adding something at the start of the list saying that an athlete only qualifies if they're notable for being Muslim, rather than by being a notable sportsperson who happens to be Muslim, then I'd agree with the TNT option. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 12:18, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
• Delete. Per nom. Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 02:03, 23 May 2017 (UTC)
• Keep, there are many analogous articles like this on other religions, so why not this one? 92.2.69.110 (talk) 21:43, 24 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Such as??? Give us some examples. I find it astonishing an IP address' only Wikipedia entry is on this AfD discussion. Ajf773 (talk) 22:01, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein  07:24, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

• Delete This is ridiculous. The list would be huge and impossible to maintain. There are 1 billion Muslims in the world, how can you have a page that details all their sportspeople? Deathlibrarian (talk) 08:40, 27 May 2017 (UTC)
  • If this is to be deleted, we're going to do it for a valid reason. Thinking that it must contain all people who literally qualify is not one of them. Please familiarize yourself with list guidelines and practice, as it is completely standard to limit lists of people to only those who have or merit articles. postdlf (talk) 01:14, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. Too indiscriminate to be useful and nearly always not a significant intersection of sports and religion. If the category was deleted, why would we keep the list? Clarityfiend (talk) 18:11, 27 May 2017 (UTC)
• Delete there are far to many muslim's in the world to make a list of all that play all sports. There is also no intersection of note between religion and sports playing. Legacypac (talk) 20:52, 27 May 2017 (UTC)
• Delete the list would be too long for us to have practical article. Lepricavark (talk) 21:30, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

• Strong delete: Wikipedia should not group people on the basis of their religions. This world already has its fair share of communal conflicts. No need to increase the "separatism". I dont understand why an encyclopaedia needs such a list.

 Comment: Editors wo are voting for "keep": instead of pointing out why it should not be deleted, kindly point out why it deserves a place in an encyclopaedia. There is literally no use of this list, except to reverse search: "oh let me find out if XYZ muslim player is included in this list".

What comes next? "List of Christian sportspeople" or "List of English speaking sportspeople"? I think we should go with "List of White sportspeople" first, then we can work on black, yellow, and then brown Indians from India. The last list will be mostly of cricket players though. —usernamekiran(talk) 19:08, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.