User talk:Ungtss

Hinduism | Dolphins | Heresies | Trinity | Colliding Galaxies

Creationism vs. Evolution

23 Jan 2005

Well, that explains your response to my comments about the "false premises" of Christians. What's your feelings on bibical infailability? crazyeddie 02:41, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

i don't believe it for a second. i think that inerrancy and infallibility were invented by christians in the 19th century (along with papal infallibility) as a reaction against the fact that secular thought was replacing the church -- i think it was a last, desperate appeal to authority at a time that the church had nothing to contribute. however, in reading the bible, i find that it is qualitatively different than any other book i've ever read. i find it to be breathtaking -- the historical scope, the accuracy, the insight of the authors, the objectivity ... and the way it differs from the writings of any of the other religions ... to me it doesn't read like a book that's trying to convince you of something -- it reads like a collection of historical accounts spanning 2000 years that were patched together and collected -- books written by and about men that experienced life and God in profound and personal ways ... and i think the quality of the experience reflects itself in the writing -- there seems to me to be a Truth and Light coming from the writing that i can find nowhere else -- so i find it to have an amazing amount of credibility. but infallible? no way. what in this world is infallible? nothing. why should we expect the bible to be any different? Ungtss 03:39, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

You say the Bible is accurate. How can you know this, without correlating it to an external, independent source? I suppose you could say that the Bible is an accurate description of your own experience with God. But somebody else might disagree, and say that the Bible does not accurately describe their experience. Plus, there is some question of how independent your experience is from what the Bible has taught you to expect. Or for that matter, how much your own preconceptions have shaped how you interpret the Bible. (I must say, however, you are more careful about that than most Christians.) But let's leave that aside for now, and treat the Bible as just a historical record. There is no question that the Bible is, to a certain extent, a factual historical record (at least post-Deluge :-)). But I've heard that historians have difficulty correlating it with other, contemporary histories.

For example, our best guess is that the Hebrews came to Egypt when the foreign Hyksos ruled, and served as intellectuals. When the native Egyptians overthrew the Hyksos and set up the New Kingdom, we think they resented the Hewbrews as collaborators. We think that the Exodus happened under Ramses II. Prior to that time, the area that would become Israel was under Egyptian control. About that time, Egypt experienced a lot of troubles (which might have been the basis for the Bibical account of the Plagues), and their sphere of influence shrank. I personally have the sneaking suspicion that the Hebrews were not so much allowed to escape, as forcibly deported by the government in order to save resources, made scarce by the troubles, for the Egyptian citizens.

But all of this is just our best guess. No event described in the Bible during that period can be found in contemporary Egyptian accounts. That doesn't prove anything, because the Egyptians of that period are known to have followed a certain Orwellian method to their histories - not hard when literacy is limited to a select class of scribes, and writing material is expensive.

There are other places where the Bible describes historical events consistant with our knowledge from other sources, but can't be confirmed by those other sources. There are precious few places where there is close enough correlation between other sources and the Bible to determine how closely they match up. I'm not saying the Bible isn't accurate. But how can you prove how accurate it is? crazyeddie 09:38, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

certainly there's no way to prove it -- whatever happened happened like 4,000 years ago, so there's no way to cross-check -- you're right about that. what strikes me is the accuracy of the bible as far as it CAN be cross-checked -- while there are many things that can't be verified, it seems to me that nearly all the things that CAN be verified have been. archaeological "consensus" will determine that the bible was wrong on a particular account, and then 10 years later, they'll find out that archaeological consensus was wrong and the biblical narrative turned out to be accurate -- and it's THAT sort of accuracy that (to me anyway) gives credibility to the rest. i wouldn't be surprised if a lot of it was wrong -- but i CERTAINLY think it's the best guide we've got to ancient middle eastern history.

like you said -- the egyptians and all the others followed an orwellian approach -- telling people what they wanted people to think / exaggerating the powers of their kings and armies beyond realistic levels (the list of kings had their kings living like 24,000 years) -- trying to build a mythology. but exodus? exodus records every single foible of its "heros" -- it shows moses murdering, saying, "i'm not a good speaker -- don't choose me," shows aaron helping the israelites build an idol in the wilderness and moses getting so mad that he disobeyed God so God didn't let him into the promised land ... this was not a book designed to build a mythology around its people and leaders -- this was a book that tried to "tell it like it is." i can't get over that.

but again, i can't prove anything -- i only find it to be a remarkable book -- one that i'm willing to take seriously as a historical account until it's been debunked by science. but in my opinion, genesis and exodus have stood the test so far -- science hasn't even been able to debunk the creation account yet, despite their best efforts. i think genesis is the most reasonable explanation for our origins we have. not perfect, but pretty damn good:). Ungtss 14:42, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

25 Jan 2005

I've taken the liberty of inserting a new section header, for the simple reason that I'm getting tired of my watchlist saying "Don't screw another man's wife." It's a sad state of affairs when your watchlist is giving you moral advice. Feel free to rename the header.

I'd like to enter into a Creation vs. Evolution debate with you. (I do have your talkpage watchlisted, so no need to cross-post this discussion.) That infallibility line was my opening manuever. I'll admit that I'm at something of a disadvantage. It looks like you're an old hand at this debate. You probably know just about every arguement and counter-arguement. You're an expert. Me, I consider myself a generalist, and what little expertise I have lies in a different field. So, as part of my stragety, I'd like to start with generalities. That way, we can start on common ground. We can then work ourselves towards the specific question, by creating more common ground. We can do that by either by determining that there is no disagreement between our positions or by persuading one another of the truth of our positions. The debate will persumably continue until we either completely agree all the way down the line, or, more likely, the gulf between our POVs becomes too great, and there is nothing left to do except for some quite boring shouting. At which point, I'll probably find something more productive to do.

I expect this debate to be quite intermittent, since we're both got other things to be doing. I'm giving up a bit of sleep while typing this, and I'll have to stop soon. (Another advantage for you - fatigue!)

The immediate point at hand is this: "How reliable of a source of truth is the Bible?" So far, you've agreed that the Bible is not infallible, but you have proposed that it is a virtual paragon of accuracy. I've allowed that it's not a complete pack of lies. Let's work on narrowing that gap down.

This is a bit more specific than I would like. So after we have chewed this bone, I'll take us further afield.

I was hoping to get further than this, but... crazyeddie 09:03, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

i'm certainly no expert in the topics -- i'm a layman just like everybody else, in the face of reality:).

i guess i just find genesis to be the most parsimonious explanation available for our origins. in my opinion, buddhist, naturalistic, and pagan views of history require me to reject my understanding of science. gases spread in a vaccuum: so where did the stars come from? There are no transitional fossils among higher taxa: so is it reasonable to believe they're all related? O3 (ozone) can only exist in concert with O2 in the atmosphere -- so is it reasonable to believe that life arose on earth when the atmosphere was entirely carbon dioxide, when there could have been no ozone, so UV radiation would have destroyed early life? atoms? the space-time continuum? where did it all COME from? philosophical naturalism leaves me with no answers, and only contradiction.

but creation? creation makes it all make sense to me. all these things came to be because they were designed to be that way. so which model of creation?

well, genesis is a very simple, ancient, unattributed account that is taken as historical by over half the world's population. it's got dates and genealogies and geography ... and it's at least worth a good read. it is absolutely nothing like any other mytholgoical account. plus, it makes some rather remarkable and falsifiable predictions -- like a global flood -- so then i look for signs of the flood -- and Flood geology gives me more than i know what to do with. that pushes me over the edge -- obviously genesis isn't PROVEN (and can't be -- it's all in interpretation of the evidence!) -- but i find it to be the most reasonable account we have -- and then i turn to science and the evidence to try and understand it better. Whatcha think? Ungtss 13:42, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

This is exactly the kind of details I didn't want to get bogged down in. I'm sure that the scientists in the fields mentioned either say one of two things: The paradox is only apparent - here's what we've figured out. Or they will admit that they don't know - but here are some possibilities that they're working on. Here's my attempt to answer you, before we move back to more general topics.

Interstellar gas is spread out pretty thin and cold. Any further thermal expansion is kept in check by the individual atoms' mutual gravitational attraction. If you get any clumping, that gravitational attraction will increase locally. That's when you get a star.

We've pretty much worked out that life began in the seas. Seawater does a pretty good job at blocking radiation - much better than the relatively thin ozone layer. By the time terristrial life developed, photosynthesis had been around for a long time. The atmosphere was fairly similar to today's, and we persumably had an ozone layer. I remember hearing that it might not be necessary to have an ozone layer for land-based life to survive. IIRC, there have been periods when the ozone layer was stripped away, and the geological record doesn't record any major extinctions during those times. The ozone layer going away would be bad for us - more skin cancer - but it probably wouldn't kill the human race.

I'm not sure what you mean by this: "There are no transitional fossils among higher taxa: so is it reasonable to believe they're all related?" What do you mean by "higher taxa"? Phylum level?

Energy and mass are equivalent. As the extremely hot universe cooled and expanded, some of its initial energy formed the fundamental particles of matter. There are very small number of these. As the universe cooled still further, these fundamental particles came together and combined to form more complex particles, such as protons and neutrons. In accordance with their natures (mutual attraction from the weak and electromagnetic force, IIRC), protons, neutrons and electrons came together to form atoms.

As for why the Big Bang happend, and why space-time exists (if it does) or why it has the properties it has, we simply don't know. In fact, we aren't even sure about the properties space-time has. Some variations of super-string theory suggest that space-time has eleven dimensions, not just the four we observe. We currently have two working theories of physics - relativity and quantum mechanics. In the conditions of the universe just following the Big Bang, and in describing the nature of space-time, the results these two theories give are not consistent with each other. It is hoped that super-string theory will resolve these issues. But it is still under developement. Not even the physicists who are working on super-string theory understand it yet.

Let's get away from these details, and look at the big picture. "What in this world is infallible?" Philosophers have asked this question for a long time. "What is truth?" or, more precisely "What can we know beyond any doubt?" We actually have an answer for that last one.

The answer was come up with by René Descartes. It is known as some circles as "the brain in the jar" idea. Matrix played with it. Essentially, the reports given to us of our surroundings by our senses - sight, sound, smell, taste, touch, even the contents of our memory - can all be falisified. All of them. Everything we observe could be wrong, a mere shadow show. But what cannot be falisified is the fact we are observing it. Because we observe, we know that we exist. We might be as we seem to be. We might be a simiulation in a computer. We might be a dreaming god. But we do exist.

That is the one thing that we can know without fail. crazyeddie 18:07, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

well alright -- we can skip the scientific details:). i agree with you that the only thing we can know without fail is that we exist ... and that there are levels of knowledge from certainty (existence) to falsifiability (repeatable science) to reasonable belief (history based on evidence) to hope (belief without evidence but with a raw desire to MAKE something true). personally, i think that repeatable science (like "what is dna made of?") can be falsified, but origins cannot be falsified -- they're based on a reasonable interpretation of the evidence. so i wouldn't claim to know how things came to be by any stretch of the imagination -- but i would claim that it's reasonable to believe that Genesis is history ... more reasonable than evolution, in fact. so i wouldn't dare force my ideas on anyone else. but i demand that they be fairly represented:). Ungtss 18:14, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

A Wikipedia article, in theory, doesn't care about about truth. Its purpose is only to report what the various factions report as the truth. However, this is not a Wikipedia article, but a private debate. And a debate means forcing your views on someone - to a certain extent, your opponent, but also the audience. Not by force of arms, mind you, but by force of logic. (And the occasional psychological dirty trick. Human cognitive systems are quite buggy - somebody should send God a bugreport so he can fix those in the next version.) You better be prepared to force your views on me - because I'll be doing my best to force my views on you. (Phone call - have to go.) crazyeddie 19:52, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

lol:). well then:). feel free to begin your effort to force your views on me -- i will respond in kind as soon as i know which issues you'd like to address. so far, i have agreed with everything you've had to say except for your interpretation of the scientific evidence ... which you wanted to exclude from the debate. bring it on:). Ungtss 19:55, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I don't want to exclude it from the debate - I'd just like to avoid it for as long as possible. Right then.

Now we had just agreed that Descartes was right when he said that it is true, beyond any doubt, that we exist, because we observe. There was a reason he was asking this question in the first place. At the time, Europe was in the throes of the Protestant Reformation and the Catholic Counter-Reformation. There were a lot of people running around, claiming a monopoly on truth - and their claims conflicted. So a lot of people were asking: "How can we determine truth, without appealing to authority?"

Descartes reasoning was one answer to that question. What developed into the scientific method was another.

We have determined that "We exist." is one truth that is beyond doubt. Try as they might, that is the only truth philosophers have been able to add to that list.

This truth, by itself, doesn't help much. So the philosophy of science has added a few axioms. These axioms are not proven, but have to be accepted on faith in order to get any work done. Fisrtly, we assume that the other jabbering apes that surrond us are, in fact, other sentient beings. We assume that they have their own "shadow show", their own viewpoints, their own subjective reality.

Secondly, we assume that all of these differing subjective realities are projections of a single, self-consistant objective reality. What scientists try to do is gather these subjective realities together, and attempt to construct narratives - theories - that match the facts. By doing so, we try to create an accurate and precise of a model of objective reality as possible.

In any situation where these two axioms hold true, the scientific method should work. (For situations where they do not, I personally turn to Buddhistic philosophy for inspiration. For fortune cookies and horoscopes, I just decide to ignore the scientific method for a while.)

The scientific method, in theory, should be able to prove the existance of God. It can't entirely rule it out, because, according to some concepts of God, He exists outside of the observable universe. However, it can rule out certain scenarios. For example, it can place an upper limit of how much He has meddled in the affairs of our observable reality. crazyeddie 21:22, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

26 Jan 2005

so far i'm still agreeing with everything you said, except i would qualify "should be able to prove the existence of God" to "should be able to make belief in the existence of God more reasonable than non-belief." as you noted earlier, only our existence can be truly proven -- the rest is a matter of falsification and evidence -- which cannot be strict PROOF (in the sense that i can give you an irrefutable argument forcing you to accept God's existence) but can give a logical line of reasoning, based on reasonable premises, that make belief more reasonable than non-belief. other than that, however, I have absolutely no debate with you -- i think you're right on track:). Ungtss 00:52, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I notice you're taking heat from both atheists and Christians for your views. Hope you're wearing abestos underwear!

You raise a point that I was going to touch on, but I don't think I was planning on explaining it fully. It's not what I was going towards, but since it will make things easier to explain down the road, I'm willing to make a detour now.

As you say, nothing in science, except that one truth and those two axioms, are beyond question. The most firmly believed scientific dogma is only a theory. However, while we can't be absolutely sure of anything, a hypothesis will have to go through a gauntlet of debate before it gets accepted as a established theory. While we still aren't absolutely sure of it, we're pretty sure that it's closer to the truth than the competing theories it has bested.

The process of scientific debate is something like a jury trial. But it is, I believe, even more exhaustive than that. In a jury trial, you have two different theories that have to be compared. You have the prosecution and the defense. In a scientific debate, all comers are welcome. In fact, if there are currently only two competing theories, the eventual winner will usually be some third theory that nobody is considering.

In a jury trial, in the States at least, the defense's theory has the advantage. The prosecution has a limited time to make its case, and, in a tie, the defense wins. The prosecution has to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, according to the unanimous decision of 12 jurors, that their theory is more true than the defense's.

In theory, no one hypothesis has an advantage over any other. In practice, newer theories have an uphill battle against more established ones. But, as I'll attempt to show later on, this doesn't matter in the long run. And, in any case, this is probably a good thing.

In order to gain final victory, the proponents of a hypothesis have to prove their case to the entire field, not just 12 individuals. There is no time limit. The debate goes on until one side's case is so strong that nobody wishes to argue against it anymore. (Aside from a trace amount of crackpots, which can be safely ignored.)

Because there is no time limit, the differing sides have time to say "Okay, if what you say is true this would happen in this case. If what I say is true, that would happen. Let's try it and see." In a jury trial, the prosecution pretty much has to have their ducks already lined up.

Note that I said that the jury consists of "the entire field". In theory, anybody can join in. But, in addition to being the jury and the advocates, the field also serves as the judge. The debate takes place in peer-reviewed journals, and peers, (established members of the field), control the funds needed to perform experiments. In order to have a say, an outsider would have to convince somebody (not the entire field) that they are worth listening to. This is pretty common. But it does limit the playing field. Again, probably a good thing.

So, while we aren't sure of the current dogma's absolute truth, we are very sure that it is closer to the actual truth than the competing theories it has defeated. crazyeddie 19:44, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

<<I notice you're taking heat from both atheists and Christians for your views. Hope you're wearing abestos underwear!>>

lol:). that's pretty much the story of my life -- i enjoy it tho:).

your analogy to a jury trial is very apt -- but it ignores one important point, and that is that a jury can be prejudiced -- determining that it is "more probable" that a person committed a particular crime due to his race, appearance, or previous crimes -- although none of those factors actually go into the probability that the individual committed this PARTICULAR crime. the legal system has a number of mechanisms to prevent such biases from entering the courtroom -- there are strict rules regarding what information juries are permitted to hear, in the knowledge that humans can be prejudiced based on their preconceived notions.

science, however, has no such mechanisms.

the application of this idea is supported (in a back-handed way) by the book The Structure of Scientific Revolutions by Popper -- the argument being that the scientific community finds itself in a Paradigm which controls its interpretation of the evidence, and that that paradigm continues to control the interpretation of the evidence until it is (after a long and hard battle) falsified, usually by an outsider who has not built his reputation on the paradigm.

it is my contention that the scientific community is prejudiced. science has been defined in such a way as to exclude BY DEFINITION supernatural causes and evidence of intelligent design -- such ideas and evidence are not even on the TABLE, because the philosophy of science disallows them from the beginning?

"Why," i ask myself, "should science exclude a number of possible explanations by definition?" there are a number of philosophical reasons i know, but i disagree with them. i think science explores cause and effect wherever they lead -- and if they lead most reasonably to God, then science should lead to God.

but science has defined God out of the equation. That is like handing the jury instructions with only one possible verdict: "Guilty." Even if you think he's innocent, that's not an option.

Why the bias? statistically, 92% of scientists either doubt or disbelieve in the existence of God, while 5% ascribe to a biblically literal creation. the ideological bias is due in part, i'm sure, to the many abuses and false premises of organized religion today -- in fact, much of it is disgusting enough to sicken anyone with an open mind.

But this is prejudiced the jury. It is like the prosecution bringing in evidence that a man cheated on his wife in a case against him for car theft. The fact that he cheated on his wife has no relevence to whether or not he stole the car -- telling the jury that will prejudice the jury against the defendant.

the fact that many christians, muslims and jews are absolutely ridiculous has no relevence as to whether Genesis is a historical account.

So in the end, i agree with your analogy to a jury trial. however, i think the jury instructions are flawed and the jury has been irreparably prejudiced, and i move for a new trial:). Ungtss 20:02, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

27 Jan 2005

We really need to find a way to subsection this thing... Anyway, this has nothing to do with this debate, but the rumors I've heard suggest that the consensus of historians of science have rejected the pardigm shift idea. It's basically a variation of the old "Great Man" theory of history. Like the "Great Man" theory, it has some truth to it, but the situations it describes are the exceptions, not the rule. A more general view would state that the process of science is the continual discovery of anomalies by the experimentalists and the invention of theories to explain those anomalies by the theorists. Occassionally, the experimentalists get ahead, and then a theorist steps in to restore the balance. That's when you get a paradigm shift. They're rare enough that those theorists are household names among layman centuries later. Newton. Darwin. Einstein. Why the imbalance occurs might be, as you suggest, mental tunnel vision.

The point I'm making is that, if a book advocates the paradigm shift theory, you need to read it with a critical eye. I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm just saying be careful. Good advice in any case.

Now, back to business.

The mission of science is to discover natural laws. To create a progessively more accurate model of objective reality - nature. In this sense, "supernatural" - "beyond nature" - implies that objective reality doesn't have set rules, that it is not self-consistent. This is in direct contradiction of the second of those axioms I mentioned. In science, there are no miracles, only anomalies. Anomalies are events that contradict the laws of nature as we know them, but it must be assumed that they obey the laws of nature as they are. They are to be sought after, because they are the key to improving our knowledge of the world that surrounds us. There is nothing man was not meant to know, there are only things we are to stupid to figure out. In this sense, science isn't just prejudiced against the supernatural, it defies it in its very foundation.

But, in this sense, God is not supernatural. If He exists, he is as much a part of objective reality as we are, and just as bound by its rules. His workings, pretty much by definition, contradict the laws of nature as we know them, but not as He knows them. As long as he stays in His corner of reality, and does not project Himself on our own observable reality, science is powerless to see Him. But if he does interfer with our slice of reality, he should leave traces of his passage. We might not be able to see Him, but we should be able to see His fingerprints - if he left them, and if we're smart enough.

So science itself is not anti-theistic. The college of scientists might be, but that a different story completely. crazyeddie 19:05, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

With your last sentence, i agree entirely. in fact, in my personal view, science works best when done with a theistic state of mind -- it seems to me interesting that many of the most profound scientific innovators of all time: aristotle, newton, mendel, einstein -- the real "paradigm shifters" -- all found that the universe was best understood as Created -- and i believe it is that state of mind that PERMITTED them to do science successfully.

by analogy, if you're looking at a machine trying to figure out how it works, those who believe it was BUILT (and and therefore looking for HOW it was put together) will have an advantage over those who believe it arose ad hoc -- because you are looking for the way in which things were arranged DELIBERATELY. i think the history of science bears this out.

with regard to the Supernatural, i think there are two views of God's relationship to the universe (actually more -- have a look at the page -- but two for our purposes).

one view is, as you described, that God is "outside the realm of nature" and "can't be observed unless he intervenes by "peeking out of his corner and violating the laws of nature through a supernatural act."

The other view is that He operates according to laws which WE cannot understand -- and that "supernatural events" are merely the "anomalies" that let us know that we are still confined to ignorance as to the true nature of the universe. I described this is "Supernatural as a Higher Nature" on the Supernatural page. God operates according to scientific laws ... we just don't get them yet. consider the man who goes to the primitive island with a gun and shows it to natives that don't know how it will work. The gun operates according to definite physical laws, but appears to VIOLATE the physical laws to someone who doesn't yet understand the laws by which it operates. This is how I think of God.

To put it another way:

One view places God in the corner and says, "unless you peak out, we have no reason to believe you're there."

The other view places us in the corner and says, "man, God is so big and we are so small that we haven't even begun to scratch the surface of the laws of nature by which God operates -- we better get started."

To put it one more way:

The former view thinks of us as solid and God as a vapor. The latter thinks of GOD as solid and US as a vapor.

So when i think of the supernatural in this way, I do not conclude that God is beyond the realm of science, and i do not conclude that he doesn't exist because we don't have evidence of him. Instead, I conclude that we are so miniscule in the grand scheme of things that we haven't even begun to scratch the surface of the nature of the universe and God ... that God operates according to physical laws that we can't even FATHOM ... and that the best approach to science is to stop trying to prove or disprove God under our present knowledge (surely a futile task) and instead simply start trying to understand the Universe ... and let our conclusions about God slowly be shaped around the evidence. The true nature of God is certain to be RADICALLY different than any currently taught -- but that's due only to OUR ignorance, not any lack on his part -- and i think that true science helps to refine our view of God as WELL as our view of the universe.

What do you think?

28 Jan 2005

I think the only difference between our views on this particular point is in emphasis, not essence. The reason I'm harping on this point is because most CvsE debates duck the question of God. I prefer to meet it head-on.

Here's a list of things I think we can agree on:

• According to the scientific method, aside from the "one truth, two axioms", every belief is provisional, and subject to doubt.
• God is part of objective reality. Therefore, His nature, including His existance or non-existance, can be determined by science - if He has interacted with our subjective reality, if we are smart enough. ("Are we smart enough?" is an open question.)
• Therefore, science itself is agnostic. To truely follow the way of science, theists must be open to the possibility of the non-existance of God; atheists must be open to the possibility of His existance.
• The current body of scientific theory, including Evolution, does not disprove God's existance. However, it also doesn't demand it.
• Occam's Razor suggests that, since the existance of God is not required by current theory, it should be removed as an unneccesary assumption.
• Occam's Razor is a rule of thumb, not an absolute truth. Belief in the current body of theory is not inconsistant with a belief in God. Many scientists, including evolutionary biologists, have a personal belief in God.
• A literal interpretation of Genesis, as well as the related hypothesis of Creationism and Intelligent Design, are inconsistant with the current body of accepted theory.
• A belief in a literal interpretation of Genesis, as well as the related hypothesis of Creationism and Intelligent Design, requires a belief in God.

The purpose of this debate is to determine which is more truthful: the current body of accepted theory, including Evolution, or a literal interpretation of Genesis, and/or the related hypothesis of Creationism and Intelligent Design.

You say that the vast majority of scientists doubt or disbelieve in the existance of God. I say that doubt is the job of scientists, and doubting is not the same as abandoning. Do you have data on what percentage of scientists actually believe in God? You imply that it is non-zero... Further, since a literal interpretation of Genesis is inconsistant with currently accepted theory, this is only to be expected. crazyeddie 18:53, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

i follow your list of points up to "Occam's Razor suggests that, since the existance of God is not required by current theory, it should be removed as an unnecessary assumption." that is where we part ways:).

let's define occam's razor first: occam's razor requires very simply that we not make more assumptions than are necessary to explain phenomena. it doesn't require the simplest explanation -- the simplest explanation is always "it just happened" -- but that doesn't EXPLAIN the phenemonon. occam requires that we line up our possible explanations for phenomena, and choose the one that requires fewer assumptions of things we cannot observe. the abuse of occam's razor to require only the SIMPLEST explanation has led to a number of "counter-razors" -- check out the occam's razor page for a list of those.

So let's look at the two alternatives that are currently on the table, creationism and philosophical naturalism. Let's limit ourselves to one very small issue: where the atom came from.

what does naturalism require us to assume?

1. the neutron came into existence in some unknown way, but without God.
2. the proton came into existence in some unknown way, but without God.
3. the electron came into existence in some unknown way, but without God.
4. the proton and neutron came to be bonded in the nucleous in some unknown way, but without God.
5. the electron came to orbit the proton and neutron in some unknown way, but without God.
6. electrons came to form s, p, and hybrid orbitals in some unknown way, but without God.
7. atoms came to show the definite pattern based on their configuration within the periodic table in some unknown way, but without God.

and on and on we could go. to believe there is no God is to believe that all these things came to be ... how? we don't know. but we're assuming that all these things happened separately.

what does creationism require us to assume?

1. some self-existent being of enormous power and intelligence and designed and created all these things in order to work in concert with each other for a definite purpose.

in my opinion, occam's razor prefers creationism in this case.

this leads us on to the question of the God of the Gaps. "Science is explaining God away," it is said.

is science really doing this?

naturalism in classical greek science required us to assume only the spontaneous existence of 4 elements.

the atom requires us to assume over 100 elements of different characteristics which work in concert with each other to form molecules.

the subatom requires us to assume the spontaneous existence of 3 subatomic particles which spontaneously arranged themselves into hundreds of elements.

quarks ...

whatever we discover next ...

I don't think science is explaining God away. On the contrary, I think science is giving us a greater and greater understanding of the mind of God. and as every discovery in science shows us MORE and MORE evidence of complexity and intricacy, naturalism is forced to assume more and more (becoming less and less reasonable) while creationism simply refines its one big assumption: "We used to think God did THIS. but NOW we think God did THIS." The more i learn about science, the less reasonable naturalism becomes to me, and the more reasonable creationism becomes. i can't get away from it.

what do you think? Ungtss 19:54, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

29 Jan 2005

Is this the only point you disagree on?

If you had no problem with these points, I was going to suggest moving on. But this difference seems to be fundamental enough that we need to work on it.

Firstly, let's make sure we are talking about the same thing. Occam's Razor, by my definition, which I'm fairly sure is the standard one, states that, given two theories, that both explain all evidence equally, the simplest one, the one that makes the least ad hoc assumptions, is probably true. If we discover some artifact that naturalism couldn't account for, then some variety of Intelligent Design theory would have to be used. To date, current theory has been able to explain all evidence in terms of naturalism, aside from the usual batch of anamolies that every theory has. But all of this evidence could also be explained by a Intelligent Designer who just happened to work in a manner that differs from naturalism so little that our methods can't tell the difference. In this case, Occam's Razor slices out the concept of an Intelligent Designer, since it is not currently needed to explain the evidence. This does not absolutely prove that ID doesn't exist - the Razor is only a rule of thumb, more true than not. It does mean that scientists have to work, in their professional role, under the assumption that ID does not exist, until further notice. It does not mean that they have to decide between their personal belief in God or their intellectual intergrity.

The first step the proponents of ID have to take, in order to displace the current theory, is to demonstrate evidence that can not be explained by naturalism alone. This is not sufficent in and of itself - but it is the first step.

If you don't believe that naturalism, all other things being equal, is simpler than ID, consider the following: Are you proposing that God, by hand, glues three quarks together to make a neutron? Are you proposing that God makes us think by personally poking our neurons every time they fire? And that He, then, by hand, carries the neurotransmiter molecule to where it needs to go?

Or are you proposing that God, to some extent, sets up the initial conditions, and lets things bake a while? Like a computer programmer coding out a program, and then letting it run.

If you are proposing this more moderate version, then realize that this version combines ID with naturalism. Why would you do this, unless naturalism is simpler?

Just being simpler doesn't mean that naturalism is the truth - unless it also explains all the evidence to date. In that case, and only in that case, does it become provisionally true. crazyeddie 01:51, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

To put this another way, a theory should be a simple as possible - but no simpler. There are more simple theories than the current ones - but they don't explain the evidence as well. Pure naturalism is simpler than ID, but it would still have to be junked if it can't explain the evidence as well as ID. crazyeddie 01:56, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

To put it yet another way: I purposefully choose the term "Intelligent Design" above, because, of the choices, it is the most general. It doesn't mean just God - it could also mean that life, on Earth, was created by a mortal alien from another solar system. The question then becomes, not "how did life on Earth begin?", but "Where did that alien come from?". ID doesn't solve the problem of the origin of life, it only pushes the question back a stage further. Why do that, when we don't know if that stage is neccessary? crazyeddie 02:49, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

i follow you all the way, except for your assertion that "To date, current theory has been able to explain all evidence in terms of naturalism, aside from the usual batch of anamolies that every theory has." that's an empirical question, and i disagree with your conclusion. i think that everything we've learned points to a designer. i know of no observable instance of greater organization arising from lesser organization without the intervention of an intelligence. entropy tells us energy is spreading, and leaves us wondering how it got concentrated. Genetic drift tells us we're losing genetic diversity more quickly than we're gaining it, and leaves us wondering where we got it from. the moon is receding slowly from the Earth, and makes us wonder where it came from. on and on and on. but that's an empirical question -- and that's why the argument continues. you see a universe of self-organization. i see a universe of entropy. i think that, empirically, the "theories" of origins held by contemporary scientists are unadulterated bullshit, and violate every law of observable science we have.

<<Or are you proposing that God, to some extent, sets up the initial conditions, and lets things bake a while? Like a computer programmer coding out a program, and then letting it run. If you are proposing this more moderate version, then realize that this version combines ID with naturalism. Why would you do this, unless naturalism is simpler? >>

i'm simply trying to obey occam's razor. some things -- like gravity, sickness, and death, can be explained by natural means alone. other things, like the complexity and diversity of life, cannot. occam's razor shaves God from why my grandfather died of cancer, because it can be explained naturally. but occam's razor doesn't shave God from the creation of the world, because in my opinion, naturalism is fundamentally inadequate to answer those questions. Ungtss 16:58, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

<<ID doesn't solve the problem of the origin of life, it only pushes the question back a stage further. Why do that, when we don't know if that stage is neccessary?>>

it's definitely true that ID can't solve the origin of the designer -- but in my opinion, that question is way beyond our scope at this point -- the question that interests ME is "Where did I come from?" if and when i meet God, i'll ask him how He came to be. But i'd be a fool to think WE came about without a designer ... because everything about US screams design.

What do you think?

Occam's Razor is probabilistic

I think our disagreements (or, dare I say it? misperceptions) are multiplying.

Let's take this one step at a time. Occam's Razor is a very misunderstood sentence. Who knew one little sentence could cause so much trouble?

The first thing you have to understand about Occam's Razor is that it is only a rule of thumb. It is not absolutely true. It is only held by those who use it to be true more often than not.

Here is the full version of its standard formulation:

"Of two equivalent theories or explanations, all other things being equal, the simpler one is to be preferred."

For right now, I'd like to focus on just two parts of that sentence. "Of two equivalent theories or explanations, all other things being equal, the simpler one is to be preferred."

Occam's Razor is actually one of the weakest weapons in the debating scientist's arsenal. The slightest bit of evidence defeats it. Its main use is giving the coup d'grace to a dying theory that has overstayed its time. Scientists are trained to expect their entire worldview to be turned upsidedown periodically. They are even trained to welcome it. But scientists are only human, and have a prejudice for the old, familar, comfortable certainties, as opposed to the new, unfamilar, frightening, provisional truth.

Just about every theory or hypothesis, when first proposed, is perfectly simple. It only gets complicated when it is placed in contact with harsh reality. Every theory has anomalies. Sometimes, these anomalies are only apparent, and can be explained by the proper application of the theory. Other times, the anamolies are real. The theory can, given time, be hacked to fit the evidence - but the result adds subclauses to the theory. The theory is no longer as simple, as elegent, as it once was.

Eventually the theory becomes quite complicated, baroque. So theorists propose new theories that also claim to explain the same evidence as the current one. Most of these new theories are shot down on grounds of the evidence. Although simpler, they don't explain the evidence as well as the current theory. There are places where the older, more complicated, theory matches up with reality better than the new one.

But, one day, along comes a theory that survives every single piece of experimental evidence thrown at it - or at least as well as the current theory. It might not explain the evidence better than the current one. After all, given time, a new version of the current theory can be created that also explains the new evidence.

So, all too often, the score on the evidence board is a tie. Occam's Razor is the tie-breaker. "All things being equal, the simpler theory is to be preferred." It lets the proponents of the new theory rule the roost - at least for the time being.

Since Occam's Razor is only probabilistic, it gives the diehard proponents of the old theory a face-saving way out. The winning side can say to the losers, "Hey, it was just Occam's Razor. Maybe you just need that last bit of evidence to bury us. Now get to work on that!".

A small group of scientists still trying to prove the previous theory might not be the most efficent use of scarce resources. But since the new theory proponents are now the majority, thanks to Occam's Razor, they control the purse strings. They can use that clout to encourage the diehards to at least work on it only on their own time. And, who knows? There is always the possiblity that an experiment will have an unexpected result. The diehards might not prove their theory is correct, but they might find that crucial anomaly that will give somebody else the tool they need to displace the new orthodoxy. crazyeddie 18:56, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

i don't think we're misperceiving -- i agree with everything you just said. i just happen to think that the "last bit of evidence needed to falsify contemporary scientific orthodoxy" is all around us ... in fact ... it is us ourselves:). and i think that all of the "untied ends" of science point to design, so that far from snipping God, occam's razor RECOMMENDS him for the moment. perhaps science will be able to explain the universe entirely in naturalistic terms some day -- until then, in my opinion, the existence of the universe is most parsimoniously explained with reference to a creator. Ungtss 21:39, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Naturalism is simpler than Intelligent Design

Okay, moving along then.

The job of scientists is to try to explain the world in the simplest way possible, while still accurately describing it. So, ideally, they start with a blank slate. We have already mentioned that they begin by assuming three things to be true. The existance of God is not one of those things.

Again, ideally, they start with as simple of a theory as possible. After all, the simpler a theory is, the easier it is to work with. So they start with a few rules that seem to be true. (Things fall down.) Then they look for instances of those rules not being followed. (Some things travel up.) They then try to modify the theory to take into account this new information. (Some things go up, some things go down.) Sometimes, a more general statement can be made that explains the new information more simply. (Things that go up tend to go down.)

The point I'm clumsily trying to make here is that scientists don't assume anything they don't have to. It seems to me that you are assuming God exists first, and then demanding that atheists disprove his existance. Scientists, wether they are believers in God or not, don't assume that any given entity exists. They assume that a given entity does not exist, and then seek to prove themselves wrong.

Assuming that God exists, without first having evidence He does, creates headaches that scientists would like to avoid. It's not that scientists mind speculating on the nature of God. It's that its hard to say anything meaningful about something, when you don't have any evidence that it exists. If you can find something that you're pretty sure God made, then you can start making conclusions about God. (Given that God designed each species individually - man, did this guy like bacteria!) But if you don't have any evidence about His nature or even His existance, you can't really say anything meaningful. (How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? How should I know? Have you seen one? If so, then how big are they, on average?)

You see, you might not wonder about things like "So where did God come from?". But scientists do. The very foundation of science is to see what we can work out about our reality without appealing to authority - even God. If we do come face to face with Him after we die, and we can ask him questions, I, for one, think it would be a good thing to be able to tell if He is lying. The first step to that is to see if he really exists.

So far, current theory has been able to trace our history back into the past, without invoking the need for God. These theories aren't perfect, there are bugs, but they are the best we've come up with so far. We still don't know what the First Cause was. This doesn't mean our theories are wrong. It just means they are incomplete. But we already knew that. It's possible that the First Cause is, in fact, God. He could be waiting just around the corner. But the simplest explanation for the First Cause, that the universe literally just popped into existance, is actually still a valid contender.

Until we have solid evidence that God exists, we can not assume he does. Creationists claim to have that evidence. Maybe so. But until they can prove it, Occam's Razor says we have to assume pure naturalism. crazyeddie 00:55, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

well articulated:). and this is, i believe, the fundamental difference of opinion between creationists and evolutionists:

<<Naturalism is simpler than design>>

i don't think it is:). as i argued above, i think that naturalism requires me to make a million assumptions about unknown sources, causes, events, and phenomena to explain the universe, and forces me to ascribe to models which (in my opinion) violate the basic laws of nature ... and that every step of science requires me to assume MORE. on the other hand, creationism requires me to make only one very big, very subtle assumption: design. and having MADE that assumption, i am free to study the universe as it IS -- without being forced to reject ANY aspect of empirical science of today. i think creationism to be more parsimonious.

<<Until we have solid evidence that God exists, we can not assume he does.>>

secondly, in my view, we are the solid evidence that God exists, because our existence cannot reasonably be explained by chance and natural law alone; and the more we learn about science, the less reasonable naturalistic models become, the further we come from models that actually work, and the more necessary design becomes. whether those models work is an empirical question, and hence is the substance of the debate. you think there's no evidence. i think there is overwhelming evidence.

i think all the evidence you could ever need to believe in God is being used by you right now to read the screen -- the human eye is a work of engineering beyond my wildest fathoming:). i find the idea that it came about by chance and natural law to be absolutely laughable:). i think that my eye proves creationism, and i think that the models you mentioned are fundamentally flawed -- maybe someday they'll be better, but at the moment, they're laughable, and the most reasonable way to explain the universe is still "by design:)."

design by who or what is a question for another day -- but i find the inference that somebody created the universe, the earth, and me to be absolutely inescapable:). Ungtss 14:24, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The immediate issue at hand is not wether or not current theories are correct. That issue is, of course, the overall question of this debate. But it is not the question we are considering right now. The issue immediately at hand is, if current theories are correct, what they say about the nature of God, including his existance or lack thereof.

So far, current theory claims to be able to explain the universe without invoking God. It explains the universe in terms of naturalism - the unfolding of the universe in accordance with natural laws. Current theory does not explain First Cause. It is still possible that God is the First Cause. It is also possible that he intervened later in history, in the era covered by current theory, but did it in such a way that our methods can't tell the difference between this intervention and naturalism. Or, if you prefer, that this difference isn't so blindingly obvious that it can overcome the rationalizations of the college of scientists, who, you alledge, are prejudiced against theism.

However Occam's Razor states that we should not assume, just yet, that God exists. Naturalism, all things being equal, is simpler than Intelligent Design. Assuming Intelligent Design would introduce an additional entity, whose nature we would be required to speculate on. This would add an additional complication to our model of reality. If it becomes neccessary, it will be done. But not until then.

Naturalism, in general, is simpler than Intelligent Design. Naturalism states that the universe is the result of the unfolding of natural laws. It does not state what those laws are. I will admit that our lists of natural laws are growing increasingly complex. I will later attempt to show that this complexity is neccessary.

However, in general, naturalism is simpler than Intelligent Design. It is possible that it is too simple, and because of this oversimplification, does not accurately describe reality. If this is the case, then we would have to go with Intelligent Design. But because naturalism is simpler, Occam's Razor places the burden of proof on the side of Intelligent Design. crazyeddie 18:54, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

i agree with your analysis, but (naturally) disagree with your conclusion. if current theory succeeds in explaining the natural universe with reference only to natural universe (except, of course the "first cause") then indeed naturalism is more parsimonious. the question then comes down to "do these models work?" my knowledge and experience tell me they do not, and that on the contrary, cutting God out of the equation requires MANY more unobservable assumptions than design (for instance, how did the atom come to be? a million facts and laws that came about from nothing, or 1 designer?) my provisional conclusion is, "not only do the models fail, but they are fundamentally opposed to the observable laws of science, and science is in the process of making naturalism less reasonable every day:)." Ungtss 19:02, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Crap. You agree with me on this point just when I have a brainflash: Naturalism is so much simpler than Intelligent Design that Intelligent Design is a subset of naturalism. If God exists, he is as subject to natural law as us mere mortals. Otherwise, objective reality would not be self-consistant. It may be possible that God can edit or amend those natural laws - but that's a natural law itself.

But since you have agreed with me on this point, it's time to move on to other things. (After I finish my oatmeal, brb.) crazyeddie 19:27, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The Growing Complexity of Currently Accepted Theory

You have stated that currently accepted theory is growing increasingly complex, in apparent violation of Occam's Razor. I will attempt to prove that this increasing complexity is the result of explaining experimental evidence, which trumps Occam's Razor.

As an example of currently accepted theory's increasing complexity, you cited science's progressive answers to the question "What are the fundamental building blocks of the universe?" I'll admit I'm surprised that you take exception to this portion of of current theory, since it's as far removed from the Creationism vs. Naturalism debate as anything. (I'm renaming this debate, since it seems you object to more than just evolution.) Whatever is used as the fundamental building blocks of the universe, they can be used equally by God or the actions of natural law. crazyeddie 19:39, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I stated earlier that scientists, ideally, start with a blank slate. In practice, this is not the case. Each succeeding theory builds on the previous one, for reasons I plan to cover later. Because of this, current theory traces its lineage back to the commonly held beliefs of the time when the way of science first started. Roughly speaking, this was the 17th century.

At that time, it was believed that all matter was the result of combinations of 4 different elements. It was also an ongoing philosophical discussion about wether there was some fundamental, indivisible, unit of matter, called an atom, or wether matter was infinitely divisible. Occam's razor would prefer that matter be infinitely divisible, but this idea is counter-intuitive. Like the matter of First Cause, science has, so far, not given an answer to this question, and may never be able to give one.

Early scientists - or, as they were called at the time, natural philosophers - were able to isolate elements that can not be further broken down by any chemical means. IIRC, they started with oxygen and the "base" metals. However, they ran into a problem. Instead of there being only four elements, eventually 91 naturally occuring elements were discovered. Upon comparison with reality, the original, simple, theory of only four elements had become much more complex.

Meanwhile, using extremely precise measuring methods (the exact nature of the methods is something I'm trying to find..), scientists determined that elements were atomic - that there was a unit of mass for each element that could not be subdivided by chemical means.

It was realized that, if you listed the elements according to their mass, there was a pattern to their properites.

Elsewhere, work was being done on static electricity. Long story short, it was determined that matter consists of two kinds of stuff with, an equal and opposite charge. One kind of stuff tended to stay put. It had a positive charge. The other kind of stuff could be moved from one object to another. It had a negative charge, and was called an electron.

It was realized that these kinds of stuff were sub-atomic, more finely divided than atoms. Furthermore, they were particles - things that could not be divided by any known means. It was further realized that the properties of the atoms of elements were determined by how many protons, particles of postive charge, each one had. (The number of electrons were determined by how many protons an atom had, since protons stayed put, and each atom "wanted" a balanced charge.)

The resulting theory of sub-atomic particles was more complex than the original atomic theory. But it was simpler than having 91 kinds of fundamental building blocks. Evidence demanded that the original atomic theory be made more comples. The discovery of sub-atomic particles simplified that expanded theory. crazyeddie 20:24, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

(As similar story could be told for each successive iteration of theory - from subatomic particles to quarks, from quarks to superstrings.) The sub-atomic particle theory is more complex than atomic theory, because different rules apply to subatomic particles than atoms. But this complexity is protected from Occam's Razor by the "anti-Razor". To paraphrase Albert Einstein, "Theories should be as simple as possible, but no simpler." Scientists don't object to all complexity, just complexity that the evidence doesn't require.

Evidence trumps Occam's Razor. The current theory is complex because it has to be, in order to explain the world around us. If, and only if, a simpler theory can be found that describes the world as accurately as the current one, then Occam's Razor would select the simpler theory as the one that is more likely to be correct. crazyeddie 21:18, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)