Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous)

The miscellaneous section of the village pump is used to post messages that do not fit into any other category. Please try to post within news, policy, technical, proposals or assistance rather than here.

Please sign and date your post (by typing ~~~~ or clicking the signature icon in the edit toolbar).

Start a new discussion in the miscellaneous section

 Policy Technical Proposals Idea lab WMF Miscellaneous 

• Table of contents
• First discussion
• End of page
• New post

« Archives, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80

Miscellaneous archive

Discussions older than 7 days (date of last made comment) are moved here. These discussions will be kept archived for 7 more days. During this period the discussion can be moved to a relevant talk page if appropriate. After 7 days the discussion will be permanently removed.

ornithology note

The five golden rings listed in the 12 Days of Christmas carol are not jewelry. They are ring-necked pheasants, phasianus colchicus-- which is why tghey are included in a list of birds. Please get this cleared up beforre the next carolling sseaason.

A source for this pheasant would be useful to see; certainly 99.99% (plus) of people understand it to refer to jewelery. --Vamp:Willow 23:29, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I decided to look around and see what I could find on the 'net:

"The Twelve Days of Christmas" is what most people take it to be: a secular song that celebrates the Christmas season with imagery of gifts and dancing and music. Some misinterpretations have crept into the English version over the years, though. For example, the fourth day's gift is four "colly birds," not four "calling birds." (The word "colly" literally means "black as coal," and thus "colly birds" would be blackbirds.) The "five golden rings" refers not to five pieces of jewelry, but to five ring-necked birds (such as pheasants). When these errors are corrected, the pattern of the first seven gifts' all being types of birds is re-established.[1] —Mike 02:05, Jan 19, 2005 (UTC)

Slow speeds - my official resignation notice

It is with mixed feelings that I resign as an editor of Wikipedia. I will outline my full reasons on my user page in a few minutes, but briefly it is because of the outrageously slow speeds. I spent half an hour trying to get this page to load. I gave up on news ticker. It may not be constantly slow, but on the many occasions it is it's worse than slow: it grinds to a halt. It doesn't respond to commands, it freezes...and that brings me to another point. It keeps freezing my computer. Many pages, including metasyntactic variable, respiration and Alice and Bob just prevent the computer from doing anything. Also, the behaviour of the admins is appauling. Cyrius is rude. Theresa knott harasses me. Gazpacho won't discuss anything, whether I ask him to or not. I am effectively bullied by DrZoidberg over the sandbox, so why should I stay and help other people who are rude to me, bully me, harass me, ignore me...? So, I quit. I'm leaving. I'll continue to respond to messages left on my talkpage for 1 week after today (that brings up to next Monday), but won't check back here. So if you want to discuss this, use my talkpage. This message was left at 17:19, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC) and the time now is 18:45.--Gabriel (internal ID number: 118170)

At the moment I'm finding general browsing OK, but submission very slow with numerous database errors. I'll persevere. violet/riga (t) 17:32, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Things are running very slowly lately, but I'm assuming that they're the result of occasionally Slashdotting and the world-wide populatity of the 2004 Tsunami page. Things seems to have settled down a bit, and hopefully they will continue to do so. As for computers crashing, that has nothing to do with Wikipedia. – ClockworkSoul 17:56, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I can understand Gabriel very well. I'm fed up myself. Considering the fact that Wikipedia Day is approaching, things are bound to get worse (if that's possible) rather than better over the next few days. Whoever I introduced to Wikipedia over the past two and a half years was fascinated by the concept and the many many contributors but appalled by the technical performance. Complaints used to be fended off with requests to donate money. Well, people have donated money, but nothing much has changed. With a simple page needing several minutes to load, routine work like checking on newly created pages is absolutely out of the question. It would be sad to see anyone leave but, as I said before, I can understand them. <KF> 18:18, Jan 10, 2005 (UTC)

I agree that the horrible performance is frustrating, but I'm probably too addicted to quit (unless it gets even worse). It's also very disappointing that $50k was raised, and (presumably) spent, and the performance is worse, if anything. Also, for what it's worth, according to Alexa, traffic is only about 10% over traffic at the end of November (December had an understandable dip). Niteowlneils 22:36, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Alexa rank has gone from around 200 in November to 130 today. Traffic doubling times have generally been 8-16 weeks. 68.237.137.57 07:03, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

• Comment It may be superstition on my part, but I have the distinct impression that saving edits is both faster and more reliable if one edits and saves entire pages rather than a section of a page. That is, the problem is much worse for section editing than it is for whole-page editing. Dpbsmith (talk) 23:09, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
  • I've noticed the same thing, so I don't think there's superstitious reinforcement involved in that at all. Grutness|^hello? 03:50, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Huh. I hadn't noticed, but theoretically is seems quite possible, if not likely. FWIW, it's actually much faster tonight than it was this morning--dunno if they fixed or optimized something, or if this is just a low-traffic time o' day (I assume most Brits and Aussies, etc. are asleep, and most people in the eastern 3/4's of the US and Canada are watching TV or sleeping). Niteowlneils 03:55, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Brits asleep, yes. Aussies? It was 3.55pm in Sydney when you wrote that (and 4.55 here in NZ) Grutness|^hello? 04:41, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Aussies do not, as far as I know, take siestas, which is a shame because I think its rather a good idea.-gadfium 04:47, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

OK, so my wild guess was way off--shoulda said the down-unders were 'at work'. Speed's still good this morning, tho' still many db errors such as:

 A database query syntax error has occurred. This may indicate a bug
 in the software. The last attempted database query was:

   SELECT cur_id,cur_namespace,cur_title FROM `cur`,`links` WHERE
 cur_id=l_to AND l_from=1386723 FOR UPDATE

from within function "LinkCache::preFill". MySQL returned error "1213: Deadlock found when trying to get lock; Try restarting transaction (10.0.0.1)". Niteowlneils 18:44, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I have to say that I've been very discouraged lately buy the sloooooooooow wiki response as well. Perhaps we need to have another fund drive. Whatever it takes this needs to be fixed. As to section edits, I always do section edits because I assumed it would be faster. Maybe I should rethink that. Paul August ☎ 22:34, Jan 11, 2005 (UTC)

Apparently it's a technical problem, a disk got full, since then things have been bad, and they need to shut down all editing for a day to fix the problem properly. I think things are a little faster now because they have switched main servers as a temporary fix. Jayjg | (Talk) 23:00, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Not true. There was a disk full, but it's not causing deadlock errors. -- Cyrius|✎ 23:41, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The full disk problem is an irrelevant issue and was solved quite easily by changing the master database server some time ago. It has nothing to do with the current issues which are not caused by disk capacity. Kate.

According to Tim Starling, the reason for the slowness starting 10 days ago was that "Ariel ran out of disk space and suda was made the master DB server. We'll probably have to switch the site into read-only mode for a day or so to fix this. Before we do that, we want to finish compressing the database, which will probably take another few days. In case you're wondering, the root cause of this problem was a lack of available development and system administration expertise, coupled with a poorly timed developer conference." Jayjg | (Talk) 00:02, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Comment You said "Also, the behaviour of the admins is appauling." I share your concern over this matter. In fact I believe the misuse of admin powers to be the greatest threat to Wikipedia. Sadly it is apparent that Wikipedia is now attracting a breed of person who is less interested in editing articles (for better or worse) than reverting and deleting and otherwise exercising what bureaucratic might they be able to muster to throw their weight around. We have such a person about to be elected as an admin [2] It does not help Wikipedia if people leave as a result of being brow beaten by power crazed admins, it is more important to stay and force change. Please reconsider. - Robert the Bruce 02:22, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I've been trying to edit two articles for the past 40 minutes and cannot save them yet ("The wikimedia web server didn't return any response to your request"). Now I can't close the window because I'd lose the edits. But this edit has gone through without any problems. Basically I've spent an hour trying to make two edits - fantastic. violet/riga (t) 17:31, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The site would be a lot faster if everyone would just stop using it. STOP IT! STOP IT! YOU'RE HURTING THE SERVERS! CAN'T YOU HEAR THEM SCREAMING? But seriously, a large part of our problems are due to lack of development and system administration expertise. We could also compensate for this by buying lots more hardware, or at least fixing the piles of broken hardware we're collecting. Like Niteowlneils says, traffic hasn't changed very much in the last two months, but our hardware configuration constantly changes as old hardware (under warranty) breaks and new hardware is installed to replace it, and our software configuration changes as we attempt to take better advantage of what we have with innovative new solutions.

What we developers have acheived is certainly not perfect, but at least we've managed to keep the site operational for most of the time, which is an achievement I think we should be proud of considering the adverse conditions under which we operate. I discovered over Christmas that I could work 40 hours per week on Wikipedia system administration, and I wouldn't be able to keep up with the demand that is placed on me, then on top of that there's MediaWiki development. If people want to leave because of the slow speed, that's fine by me, it makes my job that little bit easier. -- Tim Starling 06:34, Jan 14, 2005 (UTC)

Defining "political party" on lists of such

Should every List of political parties in X article begin with a definition of "political party"? User:Wilfried Derksen seems to think so, and has added the following section to the top of many such lists (e.g. Norway, Spain, and Mexico):

A political party is a political organization subscribing to a certain ideology or formed around very special issues with the aim to participate in power, usually by participating in elections.

See political party for a more comprehensive discussion.

I find this to be an unnecessary repetition of information, and also somewhat disorienting (I was confused when I first saw one of these articles - I thought I accindently arrived at the political party article instead of the list I was looking for). I believe that a link to political party in the title would suffice (as is currently in Thailand).

What do other people think? -- uriber 18:51, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I think it's unnecessary: the term is in common enough use that a link should suffice. -- Jmabel | Talk 19:31, Jan 11, 2005 (UTC)

Thank you, Uriber, for putting this question at this page. Yes, I think it is useful to start a article on political parties in a country with a short definition of a party in general. It can help users and I do not consider it a unnecessary repetition of information. Why it is disorienting I do not know, since the title of the article is clear.

Gangulf 19:32, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Jmabel, I don't think it is necessary. But if it remains there, then I don't think that "political party" should be bolded. That tends to imply, to me at least, that this is the "political party" article. That's probably part of the reason that it is "disorienting" Paul August ☎ 22:16, Jan 11, 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Jmabel as well; it's needless repetition. Jayjg | (Talk) 03:14, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I think if there was only one list, say List of political parties, than adding the definition would be a good idea, since it will greatly reduce amount of arguing on adding list items. But when there are many lists this is redundant. ilya 11:06, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The Grid and Electronic Economies of Scale

I read the following on wikitech: Why is the site so slow?

Re: More servers, separate pipes [info]keturner 2005-01-14 00:11 (link) Yes, but LJ is a profit-making company and can afford hardware :) While the WMF continues to make money only from donations, we're unlikely to ever have enough money to run the site properly. It's probably time to start looking at grants/hardware donations ASAP - I keep hearing about these but nothing seems to materialise.

I was wondering if Wiki's could/would be able to utilize Grid software and resources to defray the costs and improve the performance during peak demand. Also with technology and bandwidth prices continuing to drop as speeds increase; won't that mean in a few years it will cost less to do more, making Wikipedia perform reliably with its current budget sooner rather than later. Or is it safe to assume that Wikipedia will continue to expand/experiment as it has; pushing its capabilities as they improve for the near term?

BTW I tried to put the quote in a box by starting it with a space, it didn't wrap... so I bolded instead. - RoyBoy [∞] 07:13, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Fixed it for you. Good question BTW ;-) --Phil | Talk 09:08, Jan 14, 2005 (UTC)

IMHO, Wikipedia will always require lots of money for hardware. Text is easy, but we have multi-megabyte pictures, and some day we will probably have video. Perhaps we should consider banner advertising. Something tasteful like Google AdSense at the very bottom below the GNU licence link. See https://www.google.com/adsense/adformats for an example. pstudier 02:49, 2005 Jan 15 (UTC)

Interesting idea, makes me think that perhaps since Google and Wiki share a bit in common from a philosophical POV; if there has been any contact or consideration of partnering with Google to make use of their server capacity. Although of course there is no such thing as a free lunch; but ads might be a necessary evil. - RoyBoy [∞] 17:14, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

We are currently in negotiation with Google about using some of their servers to host squid cached requests. This should be able to divert a great deal of anonymous reads from the Wikimedia servers. At first Google wanted us to host Google Ads, but Jimmy and the other board member have told them that this is not an option since it would fork the project. --mav 23:12, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Edit war over www.wikipedia.org

The fact that www.wikipedia.org no longer redirects to en.wikipedia.org was mentioned above, but nobody pointed out that everyone can now edit it at m:www.wikipedia.org portal. It's a very visible page and so I hope it will be carefully checked and reviewed. The debate over what should be there has degenerated into a rather silly argument/edit war between Eloquence and Node ue. Now Eloquence says he's giving up for a week. I don't really trust Node's graphic design skills, so I'm hoping a few other people will get involved. Any takers? -- Tim Starling 07:38, Jan 14, 2005 (UTC)

Wow, I can't believe no one is working on this. That page gets SOOO much traffic... I threw something together - it sucks - it's just templates taken from the main page. English is the lingua franca nowadays, and if someone speaks another language their eyes are going to be drawn towards that text. Probably, we should have, written out in that language, every language we have...but anyway, wikipedia.org is really ugly right now. If ten people take a stab at this page it will be looking good. m:Www.wikipedia.org_portal/test --Alterego 19:31, Jan 22, 2005 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)#Another proposal for www.wikipedia.org portal. Noisy | Talk 23:00, Jan 22, 2005 (UTC)

Category sorting

I've been trying to figure out the way we should sort categories that list people's names. If there's already a discussion or policy on this, I have not found it. Generally, we seem to sort by last name -- the surname in English. However, there are cases where the word to sort on is not obvious (to me, at least):

• Non-English names that have the surname first (e.g. Chinese). The articles are not always titled consistently (with respect to name order), and it may not always be clear which is the surname.
• Names of the form "xxxx of yyyy", such as Wladislaus III of Poland. I've seen cases where it was left as is, where it was sorted on "Poland", and where it's been sorted on "III" (yes!).
• I'm sure there are others...

Any suggestions? Rholton 22:28, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

• Wladislaus III of Poland goes under W — since he's royalty, he's a special case.
• Wasim Akram (A Pakistani name writtenn surname givenname), likewise goes under W.
• Robbie Williams also goes under W because that's his surname. Dunc|☺ 21:12, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)
• Others take on a case-by-case basis. e.g. Even though Kylie Minogue is known as Kylie, she should still be listed under M.Dunc|☺ 21:12, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Song Lyrics?

Hi all, I was wondering what kind of issues are involved in the posting of song lyrics. I suspect most would be copyrighted, but there are a ton of (poor and frustrating) websites that are simply a compendium of song lyrics (and ads). I don't suppose it's fair use? I know I would love to have a reliable, easy place to find song lyrics, but I'm not sure if this (or wikisource, more likely) is the place. Thanks, Timbo ( t a l k ) 06:58, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Except for things like national anthems, or the occasional important song old enough that its lyrics are out of coyright (e.g. Vicar of Bray), this is not -- repeat not -- the place. All you will do is waste people's time going through the process to get them deleted. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:11, Jan 15, 2005 (UTC)

That and of course Wikipedia is not a mere collection of source material. Evil Monkey → Talk 07:17, Jan 15, 2005 (UTC)

Well yeah, but Wikisource is. Roger that, though, no lyrics! Timbo ( t a l k ) 07:18, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Lyrics. National anthems yes, everything else no. -- Curps 07:22, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Advertising on Wikipedia

User:4 Wikipedia advertising is wanting to put some ads on Wikipedia and I want to make sure I know what to do with it. Any comments?? Georgia guy 19:55, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Advertising isn't going to happen. The last time advertising was even mentioned, Enciclopedia Libre forked [3]. -- Cyrius|✎ 23:44, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Tsunami Aid: A C

I was wondering if anyone else is watching the Tsunami Aid concert and would contribute to the article since we've been providing so much coverage of the tsunami. ;) --Saint-Paddy 02:31, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Country names in titles

There's a discussion on standardization of country names in titles (at least for categories) on Wikipedia:Categories for deletion which may be of interest. -- Beland 02:14, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Help!

Help! This is the Georgia guy, presenting very bad news:

Tonight, while I edit Wikipedia, while I am in Wikipedia, without doing anything, something causes me to log out. Can anyone do whatever is available to keep this from happening?? Georgia guy 02:37, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

This has happened to me a few times. It doesn't seem to happen that frequently, no more than once a month on average. When it happens I just log back in, no big deal. Thue | talk 12:04, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

If you are finding yourself totally unable to stay logged in, here are some things you might try (in general, on any site):

1. Clear your cache (delete your Temporary Internet Files if you have Internet Explorer)—a really full cache can cause some odd effects.
2. Delete your Wikipedia cookie. (So you can start fresh with a new one.)
3. Make sure the date on your system isn't totally incorrect. (My Wikipedia cookie does seem to have an expiration date. If my computer thought it was 2040, that might be problematic.) -Aranel ("Sarah") 01:22, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Back

Hey guys, I'm back, in case you haven't noticed. I've recently been doing just 'grunt work' -- that is reverting vandalism and stuff, because I found a life now (lol). I see wikipedia has changed in a few months. Cool. — Ilγαηερ (Tαlκ) 01:31, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

How could a non-registered user object?

Why people hurt by Wikipedia content, cannot object without registration? I know there is a Content disclaimer but still some articles I found recently spread on Internet contain insulting facts of the kind "home-made science". The particular item I found in a foreign-language forum is http://www.fact-index.com/l/li/list_of_country_name_etymologies.html Unfortunatelly, ethimology is very risky to home-made suggestions and here is one more question from me: who checks the facts on Wikipedia? As you can see from the link above the quotators /and what a name they got!/ do not give links to the Content Disclaimer! %/

All articles have talk pages, where questions or comments can be asked. You will need to go to the actual article at the Wikipedia: List of country name etymologies. Any page can also be edited by non-logged in users, although there are many benefits to registering. Facts can be—and are—checked by all editors. Again, the talk page of the article is the logical place to question statements in the article. User:Anárion/sig 10:20, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Thank You. Just to clear - shouldn't Wikipedia quotators mention the Content disclaimer too?

We have very limited control over what someone who reuses our content does or does not say, as long as they follow GFDL. Your issue should be with them, not with Wikipedia, just like if a site quotes a politician out of context, your issue is with the site, not the politician. -- Jmabel | Talk 02:26, Jan 22, 2005 (UTC)

Copyright: Company claims that a picture is violating their licence rights

The image commons:Image:Barlach Magdeburger Ehrenmal.jpg shows a sculpture by Barlach from 1929. The picture was taken by me, after purchasing a photo permit at the Cathedral of Magdeburg where the sculpture is on public display. An anonymous user on the commons listed the image for deletion, claiming that the "Ernst Barlach Lizenzverwaltung Company claims that this picture is violating their licence rights on Barlach's works". (see also: commons:Commons:Deletion requests). The company's homepage is here (english), stating that All kinds of use and exploitation are strictly subject to our permission and licence charge and are to be marked with © Ernst Barlach Lizenzverwaltung Ratzeburg.. I am not that familiar with copyright law, but I thought that a photo of a copyrighted object can be taken and published legally. Otherwise pretty much all modern art, architecture, or objects would be copyrighted. I am also not sure about the ownership of the sculpture, i.e. if it belongs to the company. I am also not sure how these requests are based on german law, or if german law applies here at all. Any comments are very welcome -- Chris 73 Talk 01:30, Jan 21, 2005 (UTC)

What are the terms of your photo permit? —Mike 04:14, Jan 21, 2005 (UTC)

I don't remember. I paid 2 euro for a small slip of paper, which I have thrown out long ago. This was advertised at the entrance of the church, and also priced so that tourists can take pics. -- Chris 73 Talk 05:07, Jan 21, 2005 (UTC)

Whether German copyright law applies, I do not know, but I suspect that this may well be the case, given that the image was (a) taken in Germany, (b) the creator of the sculpture was a German, and (c) the photographer, too. (?) If the sculpture had been standing outside, there'd be no question at all: §59 of the German Urheberrecht explicitly allows taking pictures from public squares and roads and publishing these images. However, since the sculpture is inside the cathedral, this doesn't apply. It appears that with your photo permit you just got a license to take the picture for personal use, but did not get a license for general public redistribution of the picture—such redistribution apparently is only allowed for non-profit use and maybe for use (as a quote or illustrative example) for the purposes of criticism or research §51(1). See also this pretty good discussion (in German). For better info, I'd try asking on this mailing list of German lawyers, they have many discussions regarding copyright concerning photographs in their archives. (By the way, Ernst Barlach, the creator of the sculpture, died on Oct 24, 1938. Hence on January 1, 2009, the copyright on his works expires §64, and from then on, one can indeed use this photo for any purpose. The photo itself is a Lichtbildwerk (cf. Template_talk:PD-Germany) and copyrighted until 70 years after the death of the photographer, too.) Final note: the same problem may also exist for de:Bild:Güstrow Barlachs-Mutter-Erde.jpg: this garden is not a public square or road but private property... :-( Lupo 09:34, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Thanks a million for the excellent links and infos! I will try to contact the Church again to see if the permit included commercial use, and also who owns the Barlach sculpture. If not, thn we'll have to move the pics from the commons to Wikipedia, where I think the use may be feasible again, as non-commercial or fair use. -- Chris 73 Talk 09:14, Jan 22, 2005 (UTC)

As a follow-up comment, I don't know the details of German copyright law, but from what I can tell, UK copyright law doesn't cover sculptures, whilst recent US copyright law cover's both sculptures and buildings, with exceptions for what can be seen from public spaces. -- Solipsist 19:59, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Read the Wikipedia:Copyright FAQ - James and I wrote it to avoid these questions. In the US: Statues can be copyrighted, and pictures of them are derivative works (pictures of 2D works with "slavish efforts" made to ensure accuracy are copies and *not* derivative works). In this case, if the statue is not in the public domain, a picture of it would be a derivative works and therefore could not be distributed without consent of the copyright holder. →Raul654 21:03, Jan 22, 2005 (UTC)

Formal Greeting

Hello My name is Zoe Batham and I joined the Smalltalk community a few years back with the Open University. I have been learning the basics and interacting on entertainment boards. I still have much to learn as I am more familiar with the grammer and sytnax of C++.

This comes at Wikipedia:New user log. utcursch 12:19, Jan 22, 2005 (UTC)

Mediation committee

The MC is currently without a chair. User:Jwrosenzweig offered to step into the breach. See also the WikiEN-l mailing list and in particular Wikipedia:Mediation Committee#Candidate_for_being_chair.

Please comment. (Original posted by SweetLittleFluffyThing 12:26, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC), refactored to make it clear that JWR was not trying to power grab !:) by me Pcb21| Pete 16:13, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)

In addition to that, it seems like a good idea to get a few of the current candidates to beef up the Committees numbers. If you have any objections to me doing that over the next day or two please comment at Wikipedia_talk:Mediation Committee. Pcb21| Pete 16:13, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia mentioned in article of large-circulation magazine

Hi. I'm pleased to divulge that Wikipedia has (finally) been the object of a story in Veja, the largest and most prestigious weekly magazine in Brazil (over 1 million subscribers) and one of the 5 largest in the world in terms of numbers of copies printed (every week). Not everything was great though. We took heavy criticism: the reporter inserted a wrong information in our article on the Brazilian president, to test how fast the mistake would be corrected by the community. It wasn't! The reporter himself changed it back to the original version two days later (check the page history &#150; edit by anon user, IP address 200.196.241.1 on the 17th and the 19th of this month). That led the story to question the credibility of our encyclopedia. If people would be interested, I can provide a full translation into English (I would do it myself) and post it on Wikipedia, but I'm not sure as to where I could post it (maybe I could create a subpage in my user page, or maybe I could do it in the Sandbox, since it's temporary anyways?). I am however considering a letter of criticism to the magazine, since I found the story to have been somewhat superficial, given the reporter's ignorance of the particularities of our community. Personally, I think the story could have been much better if they had contacted a user (maybe even a Brazilian one) to assist them. They didn't even care to take a statement from Jimbo! I hope this is of some interest. Regards, Redux 17:45, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)