Talk:Rejection of evolution by religious groups

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For a November 2004 deletion debate over this page se Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Creation vs. evolution debate

Archives

  • For full discussions prior to October 29, 2004, see Talk:Creationism and archives.

/Selected discussions prior to October 29,2004

Section regarding Ungtss

  • Ungtss reverted 4 times in a row on the intro of this article. Bensaccount 22:58, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • Ungtss admitted to trolling during this discussion.Bensaccount 22:58, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • Ungtss admitted to being biased towards creationism. (Note that he was not sarcastic in any way when he stated "Since i'm biased, i've just fleshed out my side. would somebody be willing to add to the evolution side?". He had just created a new discussion section proposing falsifiable evidence be stated for evolution and creation and was genuinely attempting to gather data from the other side. Bensaccount 23:16, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

a couple more reminders:

Bensaccount introduced himself to ungtss by calling ungtss a moron three times.

He is a moron (4). Just look at the following point. He is suggesting that this article has reached a consensus and should no longer be edited. Bensaccount 20:44, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Bensaccount made four edits to a section reached by consensus and unsupported by anyone but himself.
Ungtss has a bad habit of using subtle sarcasm when exasperated. Ungtss 23:02, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

And he is very easily exasperated to boot, so it is nearly impossible to tell when he is telling the truth or not.Bensaccount 20:44, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

ungtss knows he is biased, and that's why he invites people who disagree with him to help develop a fair article based on information which they are better equipped to present fairly and accurately. Ungtss 01:26, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

But only when they agree with him. Bensaccount 20:44, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

In summary:

Ungtss is a bastard. Ungtss 21:31, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I think he may be sarcastic now (who can really tell), but I would summarize this section as: Ungtss is not a good candidate for writing NPOV on this page. Bensaccount 21:34, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

  • Let me say it this way. I don't trust either of you to write NPOV on this page without my help. 8)) I don't know enough myself to write NPOV on this page. So I suggest all of us quote and paraphrase published scholars and polls. In my opinion, quoting and paraphrasing published scholars and polls is the only way for any of us to write NPOV on this page. ---Rednblu | Talk 22:09, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
agreed:). ungtss the moron does not trust himself either, and greatly appreciates the willingness of so many intelligent people to keep us "crazy creationists" on our toes:). Ungtss 22:18, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • Ungtss has stated that NPOV is a quality attributed only to the winner of a revert war. Bensaccount 21:01, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

An actual poll. What is the debate?

CREATIONISM

How set are your opinions on the issue of teaching either creationism or evolution in public schools? Is your mind completely made up, or is it possible you might change your mind at some point in the future?

People for the American Way

Mar, 2000 

                                      mind      mind       not
                                        is       can      sure
                                      made    change
                                        up
     should teach evolution only       59%       37%        4%
 teach evolution and creationism        46        53         2
   should teach creationism only        75        24         1


Based on Americans who believe public schools should: teach evolution only = 20%; teach evolution and creationism = 63%; teach creationism only = 16%.

2000

Universe: United States

From: People for the American Way Action Fund 

           Research and Forecast, Inc.
           301 East 57 Street
           New York, NY 10022
           (212) 593-6424


Method: telephone

Sample size: 1500

What is the debate? It seems to me the debate is about whether or not evolution or creation is the best explanation for how people got here. And, in America of all places, 63% of the voters think that creation and evolution are 50 - 50. So, in my opinion, evolution is losing the debate. 8(( ---Rednblu | Talk 23:04, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

No if that were the case then the article would be renamed "popular opinion on the Creation vs. evolution debate". Bensaccount 23:30, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

  • Part of your mistaken personal research here is assuming that the debate is not in the public. However, if you consult the meaning of the English word debate, you will find that the debate is in the public. This is not merely "popular opinion" as you mistakenly assume. For the debate goes much further than "popular opinion," such as "paper or plastic." These people are voting ignoramuses into office merely because they take the right side in the debate which is public. ---Rednblu | Talk 00:52, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Genealogy

<<Contemporary creationists believe that these geneologies are a selective report of the geneology leading from Adam to Abraham, the father of Israel. They believe this because the account of Cain's murder of Abel, Cain's banishment, and the subsequent birth of Seth is followed immediately by a geneology reporting only Seth as the son of Adam, and no account is given of any women in the geneology, or of the origin of Cain's wife.>>

There are some creationists that believe that there are, or at least could be, gaps in the genealogies. Is this what the paragraph is about? Is so, this is not because of the reason given, but because of Caanan being omitted from Genesis, but included in Luke, and because of other genealogies in the Bible that skip generations.
Philip J. Rayment 13:10, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

the only reason i put that there was to explain why there's only a straight line of people named with no brothers or sisters ... and why people "lived 130 years and then had a child" -- because it wasn't necessarily their first child. just indicating that the list was trimmed for relevence. any way to make that point clearer? Ungtss 15:28, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Regarding reverting of third paragraph

The page read: "Some mainstream scientists believe that the fossil record shows ample evidence for gradualistic evolutionary change. Others, such as Stephen J. Gould, believe that transitional forms are sparse in the fossil record, and explain it by means of non-darwinian theories of evolution."

This is misleading. This text does not point out that the only point under consideration here is the fossils. Gradualistic evolutionary change is not the same as gradual genetic change. Also the usage of "some" and "others" replacing "main stream" and "many" is wrong because these descriptions were correct. Darwinian theories of evolution refer to the mechanism of change of the genetic material. Stephen J. Gould does not believe in gradual morphological change. This does not make him non-darwinian. Barnaby dawson 18:21, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

i can see that there's some disagreement on that subject, so i think you're probably right. however, this article (in the section, "The Punctualist Response") shows that at least some evolutionists consider PE to be non-darwinian -- but you're right -- it's probably a misleading characterization. all i wanted was reference to some scientists, like gould + eldridge, who think that the fossil record is "discontinuous." I'll try again:). Ungtss 18:27, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

great stuff!

Main stream geologists would point out that if there had been a worldwide flood we would have expected very small populations of various species to have seeded current populations and this would be evident in their genetic variability (this is not the case).

  • can we flesh that out a bit?
    • The problem I have with this page is that there is simply too much evidence to put into it. I think maybe we should create some pages to house evidence for common "facts" that we wish to put on this or other similar pages.
  • 1) doesn't evolution (especially punc eq) predict that small populations seeded ALL new species?
    • Not populations of less than 10. Punc eq would predict new species to be formed from small initial groups occasionally but not most or all of the time. Barnaby dawson 19:05, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
      • what i mean is that evolution believes that life in all its present diversity came from one single cell. where did THAT diversity come from? Ungtss 19:11, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • 2) how does this objection work within the creationist genetic model -- that the animals that came off the ark had a MORE diverse genome than current species, and that they INBRED to differentiate?
    • If a population starts off with 2 animals how would their genome be more diverse? You could only ever have 4 alleles for a given gene and that would be unlikely. The variation in V genes in the immune system would be very low making the species prone to disease and so probably dying out very quickly. The idea that several related species bred with each other to increase variation is interesting but it would imply that their genes would show completely different phylogenetic trees which they don't. It would also increase dramatically the number of animals required on the ark. Barnaby dawson 19:05, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
      • What i meant is that if you take a "mongrel" -- the dog that remains after all the present breeds of dog have been left to interbreed for a while -- that dog has a more "diverse" genome than the breeds it came from -- and that mongrel's descendents can then be bred back OUT into a number of breeds. am i right? Ungtss 19:11, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • 3) can we get any cites on this? Ungtss 19:12, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
    • Here's a web page with the ice core records we have for CO2 and temperature levels (determined by deterium and Oxygen 18 levels) in the last 420,000 years. Barnaby dawson 19:05, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
      • okay ... i'll cite that -- but it's gonna come with reference to the assumption of uniformitarianism -- we're basing those "years" on the assumption that ice has been accumulating steadily ... when creationism explicitly claims that it didn't.

Also main stream geologists contend that we would expect very high rates of decomposition when the flood receded which would be evident in various climatic information we have for the last 10,000 years (this not being the case).

  • can we flesh out exactly what that climactic information is and what the methodology was? Ungtss 19:12, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
    • One piece of climatic information is found here. This is the same website as I gave above. It might be interesting to see if there are seasonal variations in the ice core CO2 levels as this would be evidence that photosythetic life has been around for 420,000 years. Barnaby dawson 19:05, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
    • hmmm you might not expect seasonal variations now I come to think of it. It depends on the speed with which air mixes globally (I haven't checked out whether you do get it yet). But anyway I found this piece of information showing how the time period in which the snow fell is calibrated. It also gives a test for carbon 14 dating (The temperature dependent and the carbon 14 dating should coincide). Interestingly this info seems to be part of a discussion forum of some kind. Barnaby dawson 19:21, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

---

<< 1) doesn't evolution (especially punc eq) predict that small populations seeded ALL new species?>>

Never.  :)) Please cite to the article. :)) Let's stop this personal research.  :)) Punctuated equilibrium grew from live observation of existing speciation events, such as in insects, parasites, and fishes. All observed speciation events have consisted of at least a gene pool of several hundred individuals. For example, a daughter species of coral-dwelling goby fishes has been observed in a patch of rare A. caroliniana coral on the ocean floor just outside Bootless Bay Papua New Guinea. The daughter species speciated from the parent species about 300,000 years ago as measured by DNA comparison of daughter species with parent species. Currently, the daughter species is reproductively isolated from the parent species, though the daughter species is surrounded by the parent species and hence is not geographically isolated. The daughter species mutated to take advantage of the unique biochemistry of the A. caroliniana coral which the parent species shuns and cannot reproduce well when force to live in it. The patch of A. caroliniana off Bootless Bay is only several hundred square kilometers. There are other patches of A. caroliniana in the world but the daughter species has not found a way to get to any of them and so is limited to Bootless Bay. The daughter species consists of only several hundred individuals. Goby fishes occasionally migrate to a coral patch different from their birth. The authors hypothesize that there was a punctuated equilibrium event in the parent species over several hundred years in which a few individuals of the parent species were forced because of lack of good coral space to take up a severe life on the hostile A. caroliniana coral. At first there was a gene pool of the whole parent species. And then after a few mutations, the emerging daughter species found the A. caroliniana coral more hospitable than the coral patches of the parent species. At all times there was a gene pool of several hundred individuals, though generally goby fishes live and die in the coral patch of their birth. (Munday, Philip L., Lynne van Herwerden, and Christine L. Dudgeon. 2004. "Evidence for sympatric speciation by host shift in the sea." Current Biology 14 (16), pp. 1498-1504.) ---Rednblu | Talk 21:36, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

thanks for the research -- the above wasn't personal research on my part -- this was in response to some edits barnaby made to the flood geology section -- "mainstream responses to flood geology" -- i was trying to flesh out those arguments against the creationist model with some cites:). Ungtss 21:45, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • We are getting there. It is all adaptive work; we are evolving "gills" in the process. :)) ---Rednblu | Talk 21:52, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

lol no you aren't. Bensaccount 23:23, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

No progress is being made

The article doesn't even say who is debating. How can you discuss a debate without noting who is on each side of the debate? Bensaccount 23:22, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

the debate is between creationists and evolutionists -- it's in the title. there are creationists (like me) who don't think the bible is inerrant and don't go to church. there are theistic evolutionists who think the bible is inerrant, that God made life through evolution, and that Genesis is a poem and a local flood. you're trying to promote your pov that the debate is bible vs. science. that pov is wrong. Ungtss 23:29, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I don't understand what you are saying. Do you or do you not think that the theory of evolution conflicts with the bible (creation)? Because if not... Bensaccount 23:40, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

look. not all creationists are religious zealots, and not all religious zealots are creationists. it's not "Bible versus science." Muslims are creationist too, and they don't use the bible -- in fact some of them have been known to kill people for bringing it into the country. it's not as simple as you're trying to make it. Ungtss 23:50, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

There are varying degrees of creationists, but the ones who think that it conflicts with evolution all are taking their religious text literally. Bensaccount 00:11, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

not even that is true, really. genesis talks repeatedly about God "walking around the Garden," "looking for Adam." When you read it literally, Genesis describes God as a tangible being. Most Christians don't believe that God is actually like that -- they think he's a spirit or something. Only the Mormons really think God has a body. you're oversimplifying the issue by making it "biblically literal" versus "science." it's much more complicated than that. Ungtss 00:14, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

No it isn't. People who think that creation conflicts with evolution all are taking their religious text literally.Bensaccount 00:18, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

alright. i'm finished talking with you. Ungtss 00:23, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

So you agree then? Bensaccount 00:26, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

ben, listen. you're wrong. you keep saying it over and over without justifying it, but you're wrong. if you could provide me with ONE SINGLE CITATION saying what you're saying, maybe we'd get somewhere. but you ignore my every point. i've told you in a dozen ways why you're wrong, ben. it is NOT a debate between literalists and scientists. there are people who take the bible literally a DOZEN ways, and THEY debate EACH OTHER over their SCIENCE. there are also debates between theistic evolutionists and naturalistic evolutionists about whether GOD exists. it's not as simple as you keep trying to make it. please stop. Ungtss 00:56, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I hate to cite the obvious, but you refuse to admit it until it is rubbed in your face so here is a reference that shows that creationist who debate evolution insist that they have discovered the true meaning of their holy text - that they know with certainty exactly how it is meant to be read and interpreted - and that anyone who disagrees with them about this interpretation is either sadly deceived or not really a member of their religion at all. [1].Bensaccount 17:29, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

and here are a group of atheists starting a "new religion" based on the doctrines of naturalism, atheism, and evolution. Ungtss 18:29, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

So we agree that people who debate that creation conflicts with evolution all insist that they know with certainty exactly how their holy text is meant to be read and interpreted? Bensaccount 18:33, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

no. i don't claim to "know with certainty exactly how the bible is to be read and interpretted." i don't have a friggin clue. but i'm still debating ... and sadly i'm usually debating with everybody:(. Ungtss 18:38, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

When are you going to answer my question: Do you or do you not think that the theory of evolution conflicts with the bible (creation)? Bensaccount 18:40, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

what i'm telling you is that i DON'T KNOW, but i'm TRYING to FIGURE IT OUT! there are people with all SORTS of beliefs on the subject ... it is NOT as simple as you keep trying to make it. Ungtss 18:54, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

You dont know if the theory of evolution conflicts with creation, yet you have created an article about that very conflict. Irony? Bensaccount 18:58, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

ben! listen! there is a DEBATE between people who interpret the bible DIFFERENTLY. some people think genesis means young earth creation. other people think genesis leaves room for evolution. other people think the bible is hooey. there's a DEBATE as to whether the BIBLE FITS WITH EVOLUTION OR NOT, AND whether the bible is any GOOD or not. it's NOT just a two-sided debate. Ungtss 19:01, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This debate is not about whether there is a conflict between creation and evolution. The title of this debate assumes that there is a conflict. This debate has two sides and they are clear. On one side there are the people that insist they know with certainty exactly how their holy text is meant to be read and interpreted. On the other side are the supporters of the theory of evolution whos opinion on the holy text has no relevence to their argument and therefore varies widely. Bensaccount 19:12, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

young earth creationists believe the bible says the world was created 6,000 years ago.
mormons believe all that, and believe God actually walked around as a physical being just like us in the garden.
gap creationists believe the bible says the world was created billions of years ago, destroyed, and rebuilt;
intelligent design creationists believe that the bible is not literally true, but that God created life some other other way.
there are NOT two sides to this debate, Ben. Ungtss 19:25, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

All of the above insist they know with certainty exactly how their holy text is meant to be read and interpreted. Bensaccount 19:29, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

what holy text are intelligent design creationists using, ben? Ungtss 19:31, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Whichever religion they belong to. Bensaccount 19:36, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Proposal

Lets start from scratch, salvaging bits and pieces.

Lets have

  • Players in the debate
(various discussion of who it is on each side of the debate)
  • Methodology in the debate
(the arguments over therof)
  • Ockham's razor
  • Endless requests for ever more specific evidence (i.e. nitpicking)
  • Falsifiability
  • Arguments in the debate
  • Variation of the speed of light and its effect on carbon dating
  • Irreducable complexity (or lack therof)
  • Life from non-life (e.g. Miller-Urey experiment, synthetic Polio virus)
  • Macroevolution is seperate to microevolution (or not)
  • Humans and dinosaurs co-existing
  • The Flood as an explanation for fossils
  • General relativity and its effect on the age of the earth
  • External Links

CheeseDreams 14:37, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Your proposal seems reasonable, the article certainly needs some reorganization, though your recent “EDITORIAL NOTE” about 100% pro-creationist links seems somewhat less reasonable. Due to the character of this article, most of the relevant links will be either 100% pro or 100% against, so maybe a better idea would be to split both the References and the External links sections into subsections corresponding to the sides of the debate. Rafał Pocztarski 16:18, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
i'd be up for reorganizing, but not starting from scratch. there's a lot of good npov stuff in there, IMO -- reorganize and reword, but don't scrap. Ungtss 16:25, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

There is no NPOV in this article, unless it snuck in by accident when Ungtss wasn't watching. Bensaccount 17:37, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

There should be a section for similar historical debates between science and religious zealots. (and maybe the ones that arent historical [2]). Bensaccount 19:39, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

  • The list of arguments is a small in porportion to the many tat are out there. I will try to fill in some sides of the evolutionist's argument in articles present as i know it; however, because what i feel is NPOV may not actually be NPOV, but i will try to fill in some arguments best i can. Fledgeling 19:55, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

When to provide references

    • I would appreciate it if each of us begin each of our edits after looking at an actual published scholarly article or poll. I suggest that each sentence in the Creation vs. evolution debate page should be testable by going to a published scholarly article or poll to verify that what is in that sentence some specific scholar or poll actually said. Far too much of the current page is original research  :)) in my opinion. ---Rednblu | Talk 20:42, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Thats absurd. There is no need to cite the obvious, and unnecessary use of statistics is called spin. Bensaccount 22:06, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

  • the alternative is known as "personal research." Ungtss 22:10, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

If something is disputed, it should be referenced if placed in the article. If it is obvious and agreed upon by everyone, it is silly to reference it. Bensaccount 22:18, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

  • has ANYTHING you have proposed ever gone undisputed? Ungtss 22:37, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

No (at least not by you). So I havent posted anything have I? Whereas you on the other hand...Bensaccount 00:37, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

i know ... i know ... i'm a moron. Ungtss 00:50, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Whereas you on the other hand...have posted a whole lot of content that is disputed, and refuse to remove it. Keep making a victim of yourself, at least when you admit you are a moron, people will not let you spread your bias. Bensaccount 17:30, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

name what's disputed and we'll talk about it, ben. that's what this forum is for. Ungtss 18:00, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Clarification

I think the article is a muddled and definitely needs revising. Evolution is a theory generally accepted by the vast majority of scientific opinion. It is concerned with the history of life on the planet but, in itself, can give no clue as to how or why life originated. At the present time, there are a number of competing theories, none of which have - or perhaps ever will have - sufficient scientific evidence to sway scientific opinion one way or the other. The majority of scientists freely admit that the origin of life is a mystery. This is not to say that they deny that a divine hand was involved - they just dont know. There are no absolute truths in science. What the theory of evolution does tell us, and we can be almost certain of this, is that life was not created exactly as we see it now and placed own this planet 4500 years ago. Science has no quarrel with those who believe that life was created by god; this is where science lets philosophy and theology take over. The scientist has a problem with those whose faith precludes them from considering other theories regarding the world around them other than their own. Essentially, creationist vs evolutionist = closed mind vs open mind.

that is certainly one point of view. however, it is not the only one. almost 50% of the US population believes that a biblically literal creation is supported the evidence, and that the scientific community is close-mindedly ignoring the evidence due to its naturalistic philosophical assumptions (and questionable methodologies such as uniformitarianism). I for one am not convinced there is ANY substantive evidence for the theory of evolution as it is currently understood. The goal of this article is to find a "middle ground" through those two ways of thinking, reflecting each fairly. were the article to take your point of view as Truth ... i do not think it would fairly represent the issue, any more than if it took mine as Truth. Ungtss 21:27, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The vast majority of biologists do not agree that biblically literal creation is supported by the evidence. Most usages of uniformitarianism can be seen as usages of ockham's razor. To reject ockham's razor is to reject modern day science. I disagree with Batholith below as I think it is very important to have this page in order that people can make their own minds up with the necessary facts and figures at their fingertips. Btw could you refrain from capatilising key words in your text as it is rather off putting. Barnaby dawson 23:38, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
we all know what the majority of biologists think -- some of us just think occam's razor is slicing a bit too close these days:). Sometimes you gotta acknowledge things you can't see to explain the things you can (Relativity). Ungtss 02:15, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Personally, I think this article should be deleted all together. The rest of the civilised world accepted the theory of evolution 100 years ago and moved on to more challenging biological issues, discovering DNA and mapping the human genome, for example. Both would have been impossible without knowledge of the process of Evolution. Modern Biology and medicine is based almost entirely on this concept. The debate centres around groups of isolated fundamentalists - especially, but not exclusively American - arguing with science. Science has done more to advance human civilisation than any other concept. Is there a page on Wikipedia detailing the debate between those who believed the Earth was flat and those who thought it was round? I think not. Science already covers the middle ground.--Batholith 23:00, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

  • Now. Now. :( Join the modern world. Not everyone agrees with you. You want to become President? Well, let's see--President of the United States of America for example? You will never win the election for even street sweeper in the Holy United States with an attitude like yours--even if you are right. 8)) By the way, right this very moment, you can vote to have this page deleted, if you really feel strongly about it. But on the other hand, I doubt that your vote would count, since you don't have many edits on your record. 8((( ---Rednblu | Talk 23:07, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • To be honest, if GWB can become President then there's hope for even me. I think it's frankly dangerous to even mention evolution in the same breath as creationism. The world has moved on, its just a shame that the religious right in America hasnt. Is there anyone contributing to this article who has any scientific background at all? --Batholith 23:43, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • You do. :)) What do you have in mind? ---Rednblu | Talk 23:45, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • Yes I have a good working knowledge of biology and physics and a degree in mathematics. I'm not a creationist though. Barnaby dawson 23:53, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • None of us are creationists. We are encyclopaedists.  :)) We are writing the Creation vs. evolution debate page by finding scholarly journal articles on the debate and paraphrasing them, quoting them, and citing them on the Creation vs. evolution debate page. Does that sound like fun? ---Rednblu | Talk 23:58, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
    • However, I will admit--just among us foxes here in the henhouse--some of us have been doing forbidden "personal research" on the Creation vs. evolution debate page by just writing on that page "what seemeth right to be said" instead of paraphrasing, quoting, and citing actual scholarly publications. :)) Several people have caught me at some statements that "seemed right to me" but that were not what the cited scholar said. *(( ---Rednblu | Talk 00:13, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • Rewrite the whole thing to a paragraph at most. Stick it in as a footnote to Evolution (and creationism) entitled "evolution vs creation" making it clear that evolution theory has clearly superceded creationism is the eyes of the scientific community. All relevant evidence of evolution can be listed on the "evolution" page and the same for creationism. I dont think this is the right place for acres of statistics or opinion polls because a) you cannot really apply either of these tools in theology or philosophy and b) this sort of information is difficult to digest outside of an academic context.--Batholith 00:09, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • Well yes. But that would not explain what the debate is, would it? The trouble is: Creationism does not seem to be theology, philosophy, or science. It seems to be politics, opinion polls, and statistics on how many people think they can get to heaven.  :)) More later. I have a bunch of phone calls. ---Rednblu | Talk 00:13, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
    • perhaps it's a little bit of all of the above -- but one thing it's not is dead:). we're still here, we're still not buying evolution, and we're not going anywhere anytime soon:). Ungtss 00:20, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
    • However, it would explain that these are conflicting theories and by reading both articles you would have all the information you would need to form a balanced opinion on the subject. Providing they are both NPOV.--Batholith 00:24, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
      • okay, let me line up your proposals. you propose we should:
        • Rewrite the whole thing to a paragraph at most
          • my question: where, then, would we identify the issues in dispute between the two sides? would the creationism article be full of evolution rebuttals, or would the evolution article be full of creationist rebuttals? don't you think it's most efficient to have all the issues of the debate in one place?
        • making it clear that evolution theory has clearly superceded creationism is the eyes of the scientific community
          • my question: doesn't the current article make that clear in the very first paragraph?
        • I dont think this is the right place for acres of statistics or opinion polls because
          • a) you cannot really apply either of these tools in theology or philosophy and
            • my question: why must things be applicable to theology or philosophy to be relevent? what percentage of wikipedia articles would you say are directly related to theology or philosophy?
          • b) this sort of information is difficult to digest outside of an academic context
            • my question: why must things be easily digested to be relevent? aren't many other articles, such as Path integral formulation difficult to digest? Ungtss 01:16, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The article needs to stay if for no other reason that to fight the attempts at censorship by the disciples of evolution. The depths that some of them plunge to in an attempt to stifle the debate never ceases to amaze me. It is one of the most hotly-disputed topics around, yet they claim that there is no debate. Caught out on this, they resort to claiming that it is not a debate among the scientific community. But this is refuted by things like the Scientific American article on creationism, the NCSE and Project Steve, etc. They also continually misrepresent reality by referring to "the scientific community" and the like as though opinion is unanimous, by caricaturing the debate as science vs. religion, and I could to on and on. The contradict their own beliefs by claiming that science is about evidence, but then use majority opinion in support of evolution. What they tend to do least of is actually address the claims put forward by creationary scientists. Instead, they do all they can to avoid the subject, sideline or ridicule its adherents, insult their intelligence, and try to suppress its claims. Their tactics run the gamut of logical fallacies, from straw man arguments to argument by authority to guilt by association. I refuse to lie down and roll over. Philip J. Rayment 13:06, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The three links you give do not support the statement that there is a debate within the scientific community they mearly show evidence that the scientific community disagrees with creationism. I would observe that creationists also use the "tactics" you deride to a much greater extent imho that main stream scientists. I deplore such tactics also. Barnaby dawson 18:31, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Just split this

I think that, first, this page is necessary because if it doesn't exist, creationists will try to deface the evolution pages with their nonsense and keep the real science out of the creationism pages. Both are unacceptable to scientists, and keeping silent is unacceptable to creationists.

Second, the main problem is that the two parties are working at the same sentences and the POVs are too different even in the most basic assumptions.

How about this format:

What is the age of the earth?

Creation

  • Young Earth Creationism says: 6,000 years
  • Old Earth Creationism says: 5,000,000,000 years

Evolution

Standard geology says: 5,000,000,000 years Standard astronomy says: 5,000,000,000 years Standard biology says: 5,000,000,000 years Radioactive dating, inferred from nuclear physicists' measurements, says: 5,000,000,000 years

Is creationism science?

Creation

Creationists say: yes, creationists do have degrees in science, see link ...

Evolution

Standard science says: no, it's pseudoscience.

  • This can be easily found out by comparing creationist misrepresentations of scientists' quotes with the actual quotes, see link ...
  • Creationists' science degrees are normally either from creationist degree mills or in an irrelevant field, see link ...

Is evolution controversial?

Creation

Creationists say: yes, many scientists find mistakes in the theory, and evolution will collapse soon.

Evolution

Standard science says: no, serious scientists agree it is rock-solid. It's challenged by some religious fundamentalists and other pseudoscientists only.

Of course, the content should be a bit longer. This way, there is a clear border, and everybody knows that the statements on the other side of the border can be arbitrarily false - just write a correction on the other side.

We know who is on which side, and while everybody is allowed to edit both halves, if there is a controversy, the creationists have suzerainty about the left half, the others about the right half. --Hob 15:41, Dec 14, 2004 (UTC)

sounds like a rock-solid idea to me. Ungtss 16:26, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Mr. Gadling, you are brilliant! Both sides have to paraphrase, quote, and cite published scholars, though. Fair enough? ---Rednblu | Talk 19:11, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
This seems like a good suggestion and the published scholars restriction will make it difficult but it is imho necessary in this case. We still need an introduction and we may find we need subpages where the response to a point has great depth. Barnaby dawson 20:45, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Actually how about having a separate subarticle using this column idea to present the views in context. It would be called Creation vs. evolution debate/Comparison of views. We should recognise that there is a difference between describing the arguments of a debate and describing the debate. Then the main article could deal with statistics, groups on either side, the history of the debate etc. I shall probably start work on this subpage. Do join in. Barnaby dawson 21:01, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I think heading the column on the left "evolution" is misleading. The three questions posed cannot be answered by evolution theory in isolation. For example, the theory of Evolution in itself does not postulate any age for the Earth. The theory of Evolution in itself does not discount the possibility of life being created by divine means. Maybe there is room for Crationism in Science. The theory of evolution remains just that. A theory. No theory is sacrosanct in science - even Newton was superceded in the last century. Maybe the page should be renamed: Creationism vs Science. What does everyone else think? --Batholith 00:40, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The subpage addresses your concerns: Creation vs. evolution debate/Comparison of views Ungtss 00:45, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Read Wikipedia:Subpages, and stop this mess. Bensaccount 18:35, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I also removed the links to other pages (creation and evolution) at the top, since people can easily find these on their own. Also moved education debate to a subsection, which is consistent with wikipedia format. Got rid of link to subpage, see above. Bensaccount 18:49, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I've moved the subpage to Views of Creationists and main stream scientists compared. Long name I know. I do think this page is necessary although I see the point about subpages. Barnaby dawson 19:54, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Misleading statistics

In places such as the United States, opinions are widely mixed. According to a 1997 Newsweek poll, among the general population, 44% believed in biblical creation, 39% believed in theistic evolution, and 10% believed in purely naturalistic evolution. Among American scientists, 5% believed in biblically literal creationism, 40% believed in theistic evolution, and 55% believed in naturalistic evolution. [1] (http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_publi.htm) Less than 1% of earth and life scientists in the United States believe in biblically literal creationism.

If anyone can summarize in one sentance exactly what this poll proves about the debate, please do so, because to me, it doesn't seem to have any relevance to the debate at all. It does however lead to the following misconceptions:

  • That scientists do not matter in the debate because they don't represent the general population.
  • That theistic and naturalistic evolution are different flavours of evolution.
  • That there is some evolution-related debate between theistic and naturalistic evolution (there is not).
  • That the 44% of people who believe in biblical creation all dispute evolution.
  • That the people surveyed all chose one of the 3 options. This would require that the numbers add up to 100%, which they almost do, but not quite. I doubt that the poll actually required people to choose just one of the three options, it seems more likely that the poll asked each question separately and then the results are displayed as if the people who didn't believe in biblical creation did believe in evolution. I would like the details on this. If the poll did require the person to choose one of three, it is inherantly biased since these options arent mutually exclusive.
  • That the 56% who said that they didn't believe in biblical creation don't exist.
  • What is biblical creation, is it related to biblically literal creation?

The list goes on. This is an obvious attempt to mislead the reader.Bensaccount 19:15, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

  • That scientists do not matter in the debate because they don't represent the general population.
how do the statistics show that? Ungtss 19:49, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
By showing statistics of scientists that differ from the general population.
couldn't that also be interpretted as "scientists believe in evolution because they know what they're talking about, but ignorant people still believe in creation?" Ungtss 20:26, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • That theistic and naturalistic evolution are different flavours of evolution.
how do the statistics show that? Ungtss 19:49, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
By listing them in different categories rather than just listing one category for evolution.
and wouldn't the people that said they believed those things also think they were different? Ungtss 20:26, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • That there is some evolution-related debate between theistic and naturalistic evolution (there is not).
how do the statistics show that? Ungtss 19:49, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Again, why are these groups separated. The belief in god doesnt effect evolution.
yes it does. theistic evolution says that it happened because GOD guided the process ... and wouldn't or couldn't have happened otherwise. they ARE different. Ungtss 20:26, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • That the 44% of people who believe in biblical creation all dispute evolution.
how do the statistics show that? Ungtss 19:49, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
By making it look like the survey was mutually exclusive.
so what other categories of people are there? Ungtss 20:26, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • That the people surveyed all chose one of the 3 options. This would require that the numbers add up to 100%, which they almost do, but not quite. I doubt that the poll actually required people to choose just one of the three options, it seems more likely that the poll asked each question separately and then the results are displayed as if the people who didn't believe in biblical creation did believe in evolution. I would like the details on this. If the poll did require the person to choose one of three, it is inherantly biased since these options arent mutually exclusive.
how do you know any of that? Ungtss 19:49, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I told you I dont, and asked for the details that were omitted to skew the results.
i'm asking how you know they were skewed? Ungtss 20:26, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • That the 56% who said that they didn't believe in biblical creation don't exist.
how do the statistics show that? Ungtss 19:49, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
By listing the 44 percent but not the 56 percent.
then why don't you add the 56%?
  • What is biblical creation, is it related to biblically literal creation?
that's addressed later in the articl. Ungtss 19:49, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Well it is very relevant to the survey.
the SURVEY is relevent to the ARTICLE, and not vice versa?
  • The list goes on...Bensaccount 19:15, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

here's my one sentence, ben: the statistics are accurate, reflect the proportional views on the topic worldwide, and are therefore relevent to the debate.

now why don't you explain how you got all those ideas out of a set of numbers? Ungtss

How about the fact that the scientists were only surveyed about biblically literal creationism while the general population was surveyed about biblical creationism. Why don't you go cite a source that says that this is directly related to the creation vs evolution debate. Bensaccount 19:58, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

those two are the same thing -- it's just wording.
Ben, has it occured to you that the fact that you lost the revert war and the votes for deletion might mean your edits are more pov than the article itself? Ungtss 20:26, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I will remember that statement. Ungtss: NPOV is a quality attributed only to the winner of a revert war. Bensaccount 20:29, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

perhaps that would be worth remembering if it were what i said. i didn't say that. i said you might want to reconsider your view of npov in light of the fact that nobody agrees with your edits ... whether creationist or evolutionist. Ungtss 21:09, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

And the difference in wording proves the poll is misleading. Bensaccount 20:33, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

i will fix the difference in wording and put the stats back in. Ungtss 21:09, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

And wheres the source that says that this is directly related to the creation vs evolution debate? Bensaccount 20:35, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

that source is common sense, ben. in a public debate over an issue, you take a poll to see how people view the two sides of the discussion.
are we done with this yet? Ungtss 21:09, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

You are seriously going to change the wording? It seems to me that manipulating wording that describes data in a poll after the poll has already been taken is spinning the data. But fine, you go ahead and make those numbers represent whatever the hell you want them to represent. Its not like the rest of the article isn't equally biased. Ok you seem to be fed up so we are done for today. Tomorrow I will point out another bias and you will refuse to provide references again. Bensaccount 21:30, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

why don't we instead get over this stupid ego battle we've got going and try and improve the article? Ungtss 23:19, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Bensaccount is right on one thing. These statistics are misleading. We should try to find some which are less misleading. Could you (Bensaccount) please explain why you keep removing the link to Views of Creationists and main stream scientists compared. Barnaby dawson 23:53, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

how are they misleading? what do they imply falsely? Ungtss 00:06, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
They don't tell us anything about what people think are reasonable beliefs just about what they actually believe. They imply that 44% + 39% do not think the naturalistic evolution is a viable explanation. But without further information we don't know if that is the case. We could fix this by looking up the methodology. Barnaby dawson 17:13, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Above I listed seven ways the poll misleads the reader. I neglected to mention the following. There are essentially two groups or as you say "views on the topic" that are listed in the poll: Biblically literal creation and evolution (theistic evolution, and naturalistic evolution are both evolution). However, no one who believes in evolution necessarily disagrees with biblical creation and not all biblically literal creationists disagree with evolution. However, the fact that this poll is presented at the beginning of a page on a debate obviously implies that there is a debate between these groups of people. This is a false implication; the groups surveyed do not represent the sides of the debate. Bensaccount 17:04, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Not that it matters to you, the poll on this page has likely been changed so much from the original newsweek poll that any actual correspondence between the two is purely fictional, so you may as well just say the numbers represent whatever you want. As for the link to Views of of Creationists and main stream scientists compared, I put this in a subsection. It is not Wikipedia format to have italicized links to page subsections at the top of the page, no matter how important the subsection is to the reader. Bensaccount 17:10, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Disinformative first sentence

The creation vs. evolution debate is a debate between people holding a number of different scientific and religious viewpoints regarding the origin and development of life on Earth.

This is POV for the following reasons:

  • There aren't "a number of different scientific" viewpoints. There is only one scientific viewpoint being debated (evolution).
  • There aren't "a number of different religious viewpoints" there is only one religious viewpoint being debated (creation).
  • The intro fails to mention that this debate has two sides and they are clear. On one side there are the people that insist they know with certainty exactly how their holy text is meant to be read and interpreted. On the other side are the supporters of the theory of evolution whos viewpoint on the holy text has no relevence to their argument and therefore varies widely.
  • Evolution has nothing to do with the origin of life on earth.

Find a reference that says this or delete it.Bensaccount 17:28, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This page should be retitled to be "Creation vs. mainstream science" because this is what it is. There are at least two different religous viewpoints: Young earth creationists and Old earth creationists. They are not the same. Barnaby dawson 17:34, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

They are both creationists, so they are the same. If the debate were between creation and mainstream science maybe it would matter when creation occured, but its not its between creationists and the theory of evolution. The debate has no relevance to when creation occured because it revolves entirely around disproving evolution. Bensaccount 17:47, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

can you two hear yourselves? so obsessed with cutting the other side out of the debate that you refuse to acknowledge any scientific validity to their claims, and wish to retitle the page accordingly? how can you look at yourselves in the mirror, knowing you've become just as closed-minded as the dogmatic religious people? there ARE a number of scientific and religious viewpoints -- there are THEORIES for why both happened, and evidence THAT each happened. the page SHOWS that. creationism was the dominant SCIENTIFIC opinion for almost TWO THOUSAND YEARS. why don't you stop obsessing over this bs and provide some facts to support your view? Ungtss 19:10, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Maybe you should be the one to provide some fact for a change, posting whatever you want and backing it up by saying that 'any thing different is bullshit' doesn't provide a very strong argument. Bensaccount 19:46, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

look right below this text, my fine, intelligent friend. Ungtss 19:49, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

piece by piece

This is POV for the following reasons:

  • There aren't "a number of different scientific" viewpoints. There is only one scientific viewpoint being debated (evolution).
    • that is factually incorrect. flood geology argues for a global flood on a scientific basis. right or wrong is another issue ... but it is scientific.
This isn't creation vs. flood geology, its creation vs. evolution.
flood geology explains the fossil record, ben. it says that the fossils you're seeing were not laid down over millenia, but were laid down in a year. that's a creationist argument. Ungtss 19:54, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Creationists arguing agaist geologists is a different debate.Bensaccount 20:10, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
no, ben, it's the same one. the fossils used to support evolution are explained by flood geology. if there was a global flood 4000 years ago, then evolution doesn't have a leg to stand on. it also goes directly to the historicity of genesis. it is CENTRAL to the same debate. Ungtss 23:00, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • There aren't "a number of different religious viewpoints" there is only one religious viewpoint being debated (creation).
    • this is factually incorrect. young earth creationists believe that God created us as we are. theistic evolutionists believe that God created us through a process. naturalistic evolutionists believe there is no god at all. those are fundamentally different religious viewpoints. Ungtss 19:17, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
There is no debate between the theistic evolutionists and the naturalistic evolutionists about evolution. Stop citing the fact that the supporters of the theory of evolution have widely varying viewpoints on the holy text. This has no relevence to their argument.
there IS a debate between theistic evolutionists and naturalistic evolutionists. i've heard them. i've been in them. the argument is over whether evolution can occur without God's guidance. See Orthogenesis.
Whether evolution can occur without God's guidance is an entirely different debate. Bensaccount 20:06, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
i see you like to define the debate to suit your ends. however, you're dead wrong. i've been in the debates. they're the same. some people think evolution works be itself. some people think it doesn't, but needs God. some people don't think it works at all, but creation is the truth. there are three sides to the debate, if not more. Ungtss 23:00, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • The intro fails to mention that this debate has two sides and they are clear. On one side there are the people that insist they know with certainty exactly how their holy text is meant to be read and interpreted. On the other side are the supporters of the theory of evolution whos viewpoint on the holy text has no relevence to their argument and therefore varies widely.
    • there are NOT just two sides, ben. get over it. Ungtss 19:17, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Very well proven Ungtss. Nice to see you aren't just saying "NO" repeatedly.
well when facts don't work i don't know what else to do with you. Ungtss 23:00, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • Evolution has nothing to do with the origin of life on earth.
    • are you serious? Ungtss 19:17, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Of course im serious.
have you even looked at the abiogenesis page? they are trying to prove the origin of life through the random arrangement of self-replicating compounds which evolved into cells through random variation and selection. that IS evolution, ben. Ungtss 19:54, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
No evolution refers to the processes that have transformed life. You are using the laymans version of evolution. How can you be writing on this page if you don't even know what evolution is. Bensaccount 20:02, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
then tell me, what is evolution in ben's world? Ungtss 23:00, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • This page should be retitled to be "Creation vs. mainstream science" because this is what it is.
    • that is your pov. there are others. the current title is the most npov possible. Ungtss 19:17, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

So in summary, the first sentence does not provide any useful information, but does provide several incorrect statements which obfuscate the debate preventing the reader from obtaining any of the unifying characteristics of either side of the debate. Bensaccount 20:21, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

so in summary, the first sentence clearly and concisely describes the geographic and demographic divisions of opinion regarding the debate in a fair, unbiased, and factually accurate way, and ben just doesn't like it because it shows that a whole lot of people disagree with him. Ungtss 23:00, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I thought we agreed that the disputed parts would be removed or a reference source would be cited for them. I guess that only goes for me, and you are exempt from this rule. Oh well, you can include this disinformative first sentance because it backs up your POV. Tomorrow I will list the next bias you have introduced to this article and you will once again refuse to cite a reference or remove the POV. Bensaccount 02:48, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

<<Creationists arguing agaist geologists is a different debate.>>
By and large, I support what Ungtss is saying on this. The bit that Bensaccount wrote under Disinformative first sentence is itself extremely POV. The bit I have quoted above (from subsequent discussion) is just one example of this POV. The flood geology debate is a debate between creationary geologists and uniformitarian geologists, not between "creationists" and "geologists". That is nothing more than a misrepresentation of reality, by implying that creationists and geologists are two mutually-exclusive groups. They are not. I have observed here and elsewhere that a large part of the evolutionary tactic to discredit creation is to claim that it is not scientific, even though it is argued by scientists in peer-reviewed scientific journals (mainly creationary ones as most others won't allow it) and it was the ruling paradigm in science prior to the advent of uniformitarianism and Darwinian evolution. Philip J. Rayment 04:18, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

You make no sense rayment. Sure there may be "creationary geologists" as you say. There may be creationary blacksmiths and creationary elephant trainers for all the difference it makes. When you are defining a debate, you need to find unifying characteristics for each side. Other characteristics tell you nothing about the debate, since humans are infinitely variable from one to the next. Bensaccount 16:54, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

tell me, ben: are there any evolutionist flood geologists? Ungtss 17:24, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I don't know, why do you ask?Bensaccount 17:27, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

because there aren't any, and here's the reason: to be a flood geologist is to be a biblical creationist. the two are inseparable. Ungtss 17:29, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

So you found some minority scientists who are also creationists. Whats your point? I honestly have no clue where you are going with this. Please fill me in. Bensaccount 17:43, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

you started this thread off saying "There aren't "a number of different scientific" viewpoints. There is only one scientific viewpoint being debated (evolution)." i just showed you that there are "minority scientists" who believe there is a scientific basis for creationism in the form of flood geology. that means there is another "scientific viewpoint," meaning there are "a number of scientific viewpoints." there are also disagreements between evolutionists -- some believe in darwinian gradualism -- others in an epigenetic macromutation model. there are a number of scientific viewpoints, ben. that's what started this and that's what i just showed you. please, ben, i don't have a problem with you. i'm tired of this. let's be constructive. Ungtss 17:46, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

My point stands. Sure there may be "creationary geologists". There may be creationary blacksmiths and creationary elephant trainers for all the difference it makes. When you are defining a debate, you need to find unifying characteristics for each side. The opinion of the creationary elephant trainers do not represent either side of the debate. Bensaccount 17:53, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

these are not "creationary elephant trainers" -- these are CREATION SCIENTISTS. that means they have a SCIENTIFIC POINT OF VIEW REGARDING THE ORIGIN OF THE EARTH! BEN! CUMMON! take the horse-blinders off, man! Ungtss 18:05, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Calm down. If you want to say that purely scientific views should be more well represented in the argument even though they dont represent the general population debating I am fine with this, although this changes everything. That means, in case you are a little slow, that you can no longer say that pure science doesn't represent the evolution side of the debate. Bensaccount 18:08, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

where have i said that "pure science doesn't represent the evolution side of the debate, ben?" the issue here is, "is it nonsense to have a sentence that says, 'there are a number of scientific and religious views regarding the origin of the earth.'" that statement is all i'm talking about, ben. you've been trying to say this is debate is simply science versus religioun for like a week now ... and trying to force that pov onto the page. you're entitled to that pov, but you're not entitled to have that pov represented as truth on the page, because there ARE a number of religious and scientific views regarding the origin of life on the planet. it is NOT just science versus religion. Ungtss 19:13, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)


Did I just imagine you saying this? Was it not a couple sections ago?

Science has no quarrel with those who believe that life was created by god; this is where science lets philosophy and theology take over. The scientist has a problem with those whose faith precludes them from considering other theories regarding the world around them other than their own. Essentially, creationist vs evolutionist = closed mind vs open mind. -
that is certainly one point of view. however, it is not the only one. almost 50% of the US population believes that a biblically literal creation is supported the evidence, and that the scientific community is close-mindedly ignoring the evidence due to its naturalistic philosophical assumptions (and questionable methodologies such as uniformitarianism).

As for me, I never said the debate is science vs religion I said this debate has two sides and they are clear. On one side there are the people that insist they know with certainty exactly how their holy text is meant to be read and interpreted. On the other side are the supporters of the theory of evolution whos viewpoint on the holy text has no relevence to their argument and therefore varies widely. Bensaccount 19:45, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

POV and idiotic second and third sentences

In some areas, such as Europe, acceptance of evolution has achieved near-universality, among religious believers and atheists alike. In other areas, such as the Middle East, creationism is nearly universal.

Look at these vague, idiotic sentences:

  • "In some areas such as Europe"? What is that supposed to mean? Various small continents? Australia?
  • In some areas, such as the Middle East? Im assuming this implies southern USA, right?
  • [3].
  • The fact that it exemplifies one place where evolution is highly accepted and one place where creationism is highly believed leads to the assumption, once again, that these are mutually exclusive. Must every sentence in this article support this incorrect POV? Bensaccount 17:24, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • listen. if you think they're idiotic, find BETTER, more ACCURATE statistics. don't delete these and leave us with no idea who believes what ... find BETTER ones. Ungtss 17:27, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Another great Ungtss assertion: 'We should keep the POV statistics because being POV beats not providing statistics'. Bensaccount 17:45, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
that's not what i said. i said, "if you want something better, find something better, but don't erase the best thing we've got because you think it's not good enough." common sense, ben. Ungtss 17:48, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

They aren't only idiotic (although that alone warrants deletion). They are also POV. See above. Bensaccount 17:55, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

fine, i'll bite.
  • "In some areas such as Europe"? What is that supposed to mean? Various small continents? Australia?
    • no, ben. it's supposed to mean, "some places, for example, europe."
  • "In some areas, such as the Middle East? Im assuming this implies southern USA, right?"
    • no, ben, Middle East refers to saudi arabia, iraq, iran, dubai, bahrain, yemen, egypt, among other countries. other predominantly creationist countries include morocco, algeria, libya, pakistan, uzbekistan ... Ungtss 19:19, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • The fact that it exemplifies one place where evolution is highly accepted and one place where creationism is highly believed leads to the assumption, once again, that these are mutually exclusive. Must every sentence in this article support this incorrect POV?
    • how does it say that, ben? evolution is almost universal in europe. creation is almost universal in the middle east. who said they were mutually exclusive? there are theistic evolutionists both places, but the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY are one or the other. that's statistically accurate. Ungtss 19:19, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Sure you can say what your interpretations are ie. by some areas such as the Middle East you meant Morocco, but that doesn't change the vagueness of the statement. Its not a question of accuracy its a question of misleading the reader. You can keep your idiotic second and third sentences if you need them to back up your POV. Tomorrow I will list the next POV and you will no doubt once again refuse to remove it or produce references.Bensaccount 19:39, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

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