Talk:Historical background of the New Testament

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Wesley (talk | contribs) at 03:03, 16 December 2004 (→response to 'moving on': any specific objections?). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Archives

  • Archive 1 has been lost.
It contained discussion prior to the big dispute. We do not know where it is.
votes; son of man; 10 key issues in dispute; the meaning of messiah
votes; debate over "new messiah" paragraphs, meaning of messiah
FT2's version vs. SLR's version; due process
increasingly verbose discussion of outstanding issues
summaries of the above; meta-debate about this talk page
Please be aware that Archive 7 is infact predominantly a duplicate of archive 6 caused by an editor acting too hastily to suppress information. CheeseDreams
very similar to archive 7
very similar to archive 7 (again)
predominantly a repetition of events in archives 1-6 - summarised here


response to 'moving on'

Slrubenstein, I continue to support your general ideas for moving forward with the article once it is unprotected. I think the discussions of incivility and personal attacks are entirely off topic for this page, and a distraction from getting work done on this article, as they have little direct bearing on going forward with the article. By now, we have not only user talk pages, but abundant requests for comment and requests for arbitration pages to discuss such issues. Let's stick to the article here, please. Wesley 04:33, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

seconded! Pedant 19:02, 2004 Dec 6 (UTC)
I will try to avoid any form of incivility or personal attack. And I am gratified that Wesley supports my general ideas for moving forward. But I have made a number of specific suggestions and I fully expect other contributors to have criticisms/suggestions and so on. So far, CheeseDreams is the only person to comment critically on any of my suggestions. Should I ignore her, or respomnd to her criticisms? How do I respond to a criticism like, "the phrase "all of it, including the grammer" seems to me to be aposite?" If the page is unprotected, I do not want to make the changes I have proposed only to have them reverted, or to be accused of ignoring criticisms. How should I have responded to CheeseDreams' rejection of my suggestions? I am seriously asking for advice. Slrubenstein
Slr, I honestly don't think a response is possible. CD's objection is not sufficiently clear -- after all, changing everything including the grammar would be a major overhaul, and no suggestions are made as to what you should overhaul it to. You could counterpropose "Cheese is tasty - perhaps the Pharisees liked it" and have addressed the objection CD makes. I would offer you criticisms and suggestions that were more specific and constructive, but I have not researched the topic well enough to know whether or not your version is accurate. As far as making changes that are reverted, if the only objection to your proposal is that it is "all wrong, including the grammar", without any constructive suggestions or references that contradict your account, I don't see that a reversion is at all justifiable. If actual objections are made, then they need to be resolved, but if the current one remains alone, I'll gladly help defend your version against reversion. I hope CheeseDreams will offer more constructive feedback soon. Jwrosenzweig 21:46, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Israeli cheese does not taste very nice, so I doubt the Pharisees liked it. CheeseDreams 00:07, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

SLR, my opinion is that in the absence of specific objections or constructive criticism, you should go forward as planned. I'll probably have some specific suggestions and edits to make at that time, but hopefully we can all go forward from there and work out smaller differences as we go along. Wesley 04:29, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

My objections are expressed by many parties (incl. me) throughout, and thus form part of the summary of the debate so far. They have not been addressed (check the (disputed) summary and see for yourself). CheeseDreams 00:08, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
CHeeseDreams, this has been a long and wide-ranging debate. If you have specific criticisms of Slr's version, please simply explain them rather than asking us to wade through the massive archive or the massive summary. It would cost you far less time (and would win you far more thanks) if you simply explained what is wrong with Slr's version rather than coyly replying to requests for specific objections in this way. Jwrosenzweig 00:32, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I have not read the whole set of archives, but would like to comment on one specific point: the term "fundamentalist" for Christians who believe the Bible to be reliable and authorative is not a good one. Outwith the United States teh term is mostly used as a perjorative. Christians who hold teh Bible as reliable and authorative would usually describe themselves as evangelical if they are Protestant, though many orthodox and roman catholic Christians would hold similar views. None of those would chose willingly the term "fundamentalist"- outwith the USA at least- but woudl reserve this term for the more lunatic fringe. I do understan that the situation and use of the term is different in the USA. Refdoc 01:55, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

CheeseDreams is, as he/she has pointed out, from the UK, as I am. Evangelicals are something different for us (born-again happy-clappy Christians as against conservative CofE types) and those who insist on the literal truth of the Bible are described by us as fundamentalists. It doesn't necessarily have a pejorative meaning for us, although because the UK is an enlightened European nation, we tend towards feeling fundamentalism is backward, whatever religion, creed or belief indulges in it.Dr Zen 02:23, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Does this have any connection with how or whether the word 'fundamentalist' should be used in the article? If it's only about whether various editors are "fundamentalist," I would again ask that discussion be taken to the various users' talk pages etc., if only to avoid cluttering this page further. Wesley 02:56, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It appears that a week has gone by since Jwrosenzweig asked whether there were specific objections to Slr's version and approach. Are there any? I'd hate to be presumptuous. Wesley 03:03, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

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