Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism

Archives:

• Archive 1 (Hebrew pronounciation; transliteration; article outlines discussions);
• Archive 2 ("Fundamentalism discussions": avoid using the word "fundamentalist"; academic sources for the word "fundamentalism");
• Archive 3 (Divine inspiration; Orthodox views of Mishnah and Talmud; Orthodox Judaism vs. "fundamentalism");
• Archive 4 (Science, Judaism & theology; science, homosexuality & Halakha);
• Archive 5 (Bias in articles; Topics & templates; Jewish vs. Christian Bible; "news" box; pronounciations; Doc. hypothesis; Hebrew language; dealing with anti-Semitism; holiday articles; Hebrews vs. Canaanites);
• Archive 6 (Samaritan Hebrew; Hebrew Wikisource & Mishnah Project; Siddur; Jews & Greece; Holocaust article; Ladino);
• Archive 7 (Ten Tribes; Jewish music; Parsha; kaddish; astrology; biographies; Niqqud; Yidiish Wiki; Chareidi project; historical topics; "Messianic Jews; Lists of Jews)
• Archive 8 (Categories for Jewish law and rituals; Jewish prayers; requested articles & moves; bereavement: brit-dam; eschatology);
• Archive 9 (Aim of project; Jewish vs. Christian perspectives; Tetragrammaton; avoiding the word "anti-Semitism" name calling; templates & citations; BC & AD vs a Jewish viewpoint; Portal Israel; Jewish Encyclopedia topics; WikiProject Jewish culture; new Wikipedian Hassidim; Jewish Encyclopedia images; Kaddish; Hebrew Bible sources; sanhedrin; mamzer; Tikkun olam; censorship; blech);
• Archive 10 (Protocols of the Elders; new templates; aleinu; Desi Jews; Kabbalah center; festivals; misleading articles; Purim;)
• Archive 11(Articles needing attention; Messianic prohesies; Adam&Eve; Ethics; Ropshitz; Sofer ST"M; 'Christian' Essenes; Jewish education; Masorti/Conservative; Yeshiva day school; Shira Hadasha; Vote/Portal/Expertise/; True Torah Jews; Deletionism; Category:Rabbis; Solomon);
• Archive 12(Interesting stuff, too much to list)

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Dates

I think that Jewish dates (23 Kislev, etc.) should have pages just like April 23. I have started a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Jewish dates; please continue discussion there.—msh210℠ 00:29, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Night (book)

In case anyone is interested, Night (book), Elie Wiesel's story, is up for featured article status. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 08:29, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Hasidism

Could I ask that at least one religious/observant Jew take a look at my comments at Talk:Hasidic Judaism#Very POV link? The link strikes me as unrepresentative of Hasidism, but perhaps it is all too representative and should stay. In any case, if it stays it should be better captioned. I don't feel qualified to make the judgment on this one. - Jmabel | Talk 02:42, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

The Third Temple and Shekhina articles

Hello, we're getting an influx of what appears to be Messianic Jewish POVs in The Third Temple and Shekhina articles giving what are claimed to be mainstream Christian POVs that -- I don't know for sure -- I suspect aren't very mainstream. Seeems like a repeat of a discussion we had a while back about Passover in which a Jesus-as-Passover-Offering POV was presented (except here we gave Jesus-as-Temple and Holy-Spirit-as-Shekhinah). Can someone with more knowledge of Christianity than myself check these claims out and see if we're getting a representive or a tiny-minority POV here? Also, the relevance of some of the material seems shaky -- there's a discussion going on in the articles' talk pages. Perhaps this could be checked out as well. --Shirahadasha 03:32, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Wikiproject Award

Has anyone seen the award proposal page? Is there any interest in proposing an award for this wikiproject?

I award this Award to Wikipedian for their great efforts on Wikipoject.

This is a simple sample of what one could look like. If you think it's appropriate, please place a proposal on the page.evrik 18:18, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Who is "Wikipedian" and what's "Wikipoject"?  :-D Tomer^talk 03:58, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

not such a fan of that one. but something can be done. i may have something to post shortly. --User:Yung Wei ^綪永徽 01:12, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I award this Award to Wikipedian for their great efforts on Wikiproject.

here's my creation. simple and doesn't ruin the somewhat standardized aesthetic of wikipedia. --User:Yung Wei ^綪永徽 01:33, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Alternate version

Here's an alternate version I just made:

Unfortunately, my Photoshop abilities don't measure up to those of whomever created the original barnstar... --Eliyak T·C 10:45, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

• There is a discussion about this going on now here. --evrik 17:21, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I removed the barnstar I made pending some sort of improvement ideas. Masterhomer File:Yin yang.png 20:02, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Aliyah, in the sense of the bimah

There is a vocabulary question at Talk:Aliyah#before and after the reading - Jmabel | Talk 19:15, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

• answered. - Jmabel | Talk 04:47, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Key articles for Wikipedia 1.0

Hello! We at the Work via WikiProjects team for Wikipedia 1.0 would like you to identify the "key articles" from your project that should be included in a small CD release due to their importance, regardless of quality. We will use that information to assess which articles should be nominated for Version 0.5 and later versions. Hopefully it will help you identify which articles are the most important for the project to work on. As well, please add to the Judaism WikiProject article table any articles of high quality. If you are interested in developing a worklist such as this one (new) for your WikiProject, or having a bot generate a worklist like this one automatically for you, please contact us. Please feel free to post your suggestions right here. Thanks! Walkerma 04:55, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject Judaism's involvement in Wikiversity

Since Wikiversity recently launched, I think there should be a presense of WikiProject Judaism in it. If anyone wants to teach any subject releated on Judaism or wants to help the project in anyway, please let me know. Masterhomer File:Yin yang.png 06:06, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

CALL TO ARMS: CREATE THE FIRST OPEN JEWISH STUDIES COLLEGE IN THE WORLD

• Need: Lessons and books
• Need: Teachers

Wikiversity: School of Jewish Studies

Transcription/Transliteration conventions for Hebrew

I understand there is an official policy for how Hebrew terms should be transliterated, Wikipedia: Naming conventions (Hebrew), which requires modern Sephardic Hebrew as well as apostrophes in certain places. A number of articles -- Chanuyos comes to mind -- are titled in Ashkenazic Hebrew and would need to be renamed, and vast numbers of articles have various words in variant transliterations. There had been a previous discussion about carving out an exception, e.g. for Ashkenazic individual and place names, but this exception doesn't seem to have made its way into the policy. --Shirahadasha 16:41, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I've moved it. I agree that all pages should be moved to conventional spelling. JFW | T@lk 18:31, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Clarification: I've been given to understand that this is a draft and that no official policy has been adopted yet. I edited the document to make this clearer. --Shirahadasha 21:31, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Hello, we're having an interest mix of academics (including folks arguing for Tiberian Hebrew since, being the ancestor of all modern dialects, it's considered philologically representative of them all) and Haredi folks (including folks arguing for Ashkenazic Hebrew on grounds that any other use could lead to apostacy etc.) Perhaps some input from "regular" Hebrew users whose native language is English, and who could represent the interests of the average Jewish-interest Wikipedian, might be helpful. --Shirahadasha 19:30, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism!!!!

I reverted the Rashi page to a prior edit because of the worst kind of vandalism. <samples removed. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 00:43, 25 August 2006 (UTC)> (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 20:10, 24 August 2006 (UTC))

We are open to all and unfortunartely, this happens from time to time. I took the liberty to remove examples here: no need to duplicate it. A good place to report ongoing vandalism at Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against vandalism (WP:AIV for short), see also Wikipedia:Vandalism in progress (WP:VIP). Thank you. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 00:43, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Islamic Barnstar Award

Please offer your opinion, vote, or whatever about your choice for the image to be used with the Islamic Barnstar Award at the Barnstar proposals page. Although there is consensus for the concept of an Islamic Barnstar Award, some editors would like to change the image for the award. I was just thinking you should be aware of this discussion because you have contributed to Islamic-related articles, received the Islamic Barnstar Award, or have contributed to the Islam-related Wikiprojects, etc.--JuanMuslim ^1m 17:13, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Talk:Jews for Jesus#A belief in divinity of Jesus is incompatible with Judaism

Some editors dispute this. Please take a look and express yourself. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 23:01, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Exilarch

This edit claims to correct Exilarch. Since it is an anonymous uncited edit claiming to correct a statement from the Jewish Encyclopedia, I'm pretty skeptical. The issue is whether Jehoiachin (JE) or Zedekiah (anon., uncited) is the last king descended from David. Does anyone know if there is any reason at all to doubt the JE here? If so, please cite; if you are sure there is not, please revert. Thanks. - Jmabel | Talk 04:18, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Transcribed and answered on article's talk section under heading "Which king was it?" --Shirahadasha 05:17, 31 August 2006 (UTC).

New template for articles needing Hebrew script

I have created a new template {{Hebrew script}}, to tag any articles about a place, name, or concept originally written in the Hebrew alphabet, but which does not include that version in the article. It adds these articles automatically to Category:Articles needing Hebrew script, where people knowledgeable in Hebrew can sort them out. The idea was based on {{Arabic}}. Rigadoun (talk) 17:35, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Member list in alphabetical order

I noticed that the member list off WP:Judaism was not in alphabetical order (though it is supposed to be) and therefore I have taken the initiative to alphabetize it. Valley2city 21:36, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. :) Masterhomer File:Yin yang.png 22:05, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

What happened to the Template section?

Can anyone explain what happened to the template section? I am confused and baffled. Masterhomer File:Yin yang.png 22:10, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm bewildered...and here I thought we had fixed all the problems with it a coupla months ago... Tomer^talk 23:34, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Typical programming bug- template:tt was missing a "/" --Eliyak T·C 06:17, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Editor Review

Hi! I've requested an Editor review. If you have time, I'd very much appreciate your thoughts. Best, --Shirahadasha 06:09, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Defining Halakha LeMoshe MiSinai

Please add your learned comments whether Halakha LeMoshe MiSinai should be part of the Oral Torah article or not. See the discussions at Talk:Oral Torah#Defining Halakha LeMoshe MiSinai. Thank you. IZAK 08:37, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Jewish WIKIVERSITY

NEW: On Wikiversity there is now a "Jewish Studies School." Will it become a "duplication" of many things on Wikipedia? What should it's goals and functions be? Please add your learned views. Thank you. IZAK 09:00, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

P'tcha

Rescued from prod. Please improve. - CrazyRussian talk/email 04:11, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Edits by User:Fduffy to Hebrew Bible articles and topics

For anyone with an interest in all the articles about the Hebrew Bible; Tanakh, Torah and related subjects, User:FDuffy, who is very serious and devoted to the Biblical criticism POV (by his own admission he is a "third year theology student"), has recently resumed serious editing of Hebrew Bible articles and subjects. Please see the extensive edits via FDuffy's contibutions Your involvement, responses and edits would be important at this juncture, especially if you are capable of adding material from classical Judaic sources since most of these articles are lacking the teachings of Judaism, their obvious true source. Thank you. IZAK 11:53, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

User:FDuffy appears to have identified a single source for his claims that e.g. "most" scholars believe that Samuel in the story of Hannah really refers to Saul. (The source is identified in the King Saul article, although the claim has been added to a number of other articles without copying the source citation). The source indicated is the personal web site of one Rabbi Moshe Reiss, [1], a self-published source. Per WP:RS,

A self-published source is a published source that has not been subject to any form of independent fact-checking, or where no one stands between the writer and the act of publication. It includes personal websites, and books published by vanity presses. Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, and then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources.

None of the exceptions to self-published sources (e.g. by someone known to be highly regarded in a field) appear to apply here. Accordingly, it appears that all this content is unsourced and should be deleted. I believe this is particularly so since the content makes claims such as "most textual scholars" hold, claims that are clearly so untenable in light of the sources provided as to cast even more doubt on this content. --Shirahadasha 18:29, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I fought a lot with Francis Duffy last year. He was quite unhelpful in backing up his edits with serious sources, always claiming that his views were those of "the academics" (and presumably were therefore above citation, being obvious fact et al). A veritable war was raging on both Sons of Noah and Ten Commandments, the former with Codex Sinaiticus (talk · contribs) and the latter with myself as his main antagonists. His obvious lack of respect for tradition (see his userpage), his total disinterest for NPOV and his tendency to provide unsourced material are a big problem.

I feel this user should be the subject of an RFC if he has returned to his previous behaviour. There have been enough policy violations in the past, plus a healthy dose of incivility, to make this user a case for worry. JFW | T@lk 20:14, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

"Obvious fact" is a WP:NOR violation, especially as distinguished from "common knowledge". Tomer^talk 23:56, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I looked up Samuel in the Jewish Encyclopedia, which has the line "Indeed, the temptation is strong to suspect that originally the name (Saul) was found as the hero of the victory, for which later that of (Samuel) was substituted." So there is, or at least was, something to this hypothesis. Don't know whether "the temptation is strong to suspect" ever became "most [or any]critical scholars believe", but if this source is used as a basis, mention could be made of the hypotheisis as long as it is presented (a) in the speculative terms the source states it, and (b) as the Jewish encyclopedia's point of view Will check further, but probably not this week. Best, --Shirahadasha 16:08, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

The Jewish Encyclopedia says, among other things (note that some of the hyperlinked words are missing from my cut + paste here for some reason):

The outline of the life of Samuel given in the First Book of Samuel is a compilation from different documents and sources of varying degrees of credibility and age, exhibiting many and not always concordant points of view (see ). The name "Shemu'el" is interpreted "asked of ," and, as Ḳimḥi suggests, represents a contraction of , an opinion which Ewald is inclined to accept ("Lehrbuch der Hebräischen Sprache," p. 275, 3). But it is not tenable. The story of Samuel's birth, indeed, is worked out on the theory of this construction of the name (i. 1 et seq., 17, 20, 27, 28; ii. 20). But even with this etymology the value of the elements would be "priest of El" (Jastrow, in "Jour. Bib. Lit." xix. 92 et seq.). Ch. iii. supports the theory that the name implies "heard by El" or "hearer of El." The fact that "alef" and "'ayin" are confounded in this interpretation does not constitute an objection; for assonance and not etymology is the decisive factor in the Biblical name-legends, and of this class are both the first and the second chapter. The first of the two elements represents the Hebrew term "shem" (= "name"); but in this connection it as often means "son." "Shemu'el," or "Samuel," thus signifies "son of God" (see Jastrow, l.c.). (emphasis added)

It seems to me that this source is disagreeing with a claim that Hannah's explanation of why she named his Samuel should be interpreted as representing Samuel's Hebrew name's etomolygy. All it seems to be saying is that the proposition that The name "Shmu'el" is interpreted "asked of" is untenable. I simply don't see how this passage raises a claim that Samuel is really Saul. It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with such a claim. One has to engage in WP:OR to draw an inference from this statement to a claim that most contemporary scholars believe that Samuel is really Saul. --Shirahadasha 16:18, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

The New American Bible, in a footnote for 1 Samuel 1:20 says:

Since she had asked: this explanation would be more directly appropriate for the name Saul, which means "asked"; Samuel means "name of God."

This source was never cited in this article. Moreover, this quote again doesn'ts upport a claim about what most contemporary scholars believe. It is hardly couched in terms of suspicion, let alone a claim, certainly not a statement about most contemporary scholars believe. --Shirahadasha 16:18, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

It seems to me that far from being interested in checking sources, that Shirahadasha, Jfdwolff, and IZAK are far more interested in removing any material that contradicts their literalist/semi-literalist stances on the accuracy of the Bible. Im not sure where the passage that Shirahadasha has quoted derives from, but selectively reading sources, and missing out the main arguments is really not appropriate. And claiming that my source is the website of some Rabbi is completely disingenuous - I had never heard of the Rabbi or website in question until Shirahadasha mentioned it, and I certainly do not see, having read the website, how it could even be considered to be my source. --User talk:FDuffy 14:39, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I should add that now I will be a 4th year (or rather an MA) theology student. And by the way, being a theology student does not intrinsically make you have a POV; and to suggest otherwise is simply Anti-Intellectualism. Also note that Biblical criticism, for those that don't know, is simply the rigourous treatment of the Bible as a historical text (the word criticism here being a reference to historical criticism (a method of study employed by nearly all historians of literature), rather than meaning anti); it is not a POV - to claim that Biblical criticism has a POV is tantamount to claiming that breathing is a biased action. --User talk:FDuffy

Editors can hardly be blamed for failing to check sources never mentioned in the article, or for failing to draw inferences not explicit in sources mentioned. Our concern here is simply whether this content is supported by the sources cited, and its claimed notability is limited to what the souces can prove.. Please read the WP:NPOV regarding Wikipedia's policy on the necessity of citing the range of points of view on notable disputed subjects, although the issue here involves reliable sources only. I appreciate your pointing out the analogy between intellectual POVs and the biologcal activity of breathing. I would add only that, as with our intellectual points of view, we can become so habituated to our own mode as the only possible mode of living that we become unaware that a diversity of modes is even possible - until we find ourselves in deep water and notice the fish. Best, --Shirahadasha 16:18, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

For your information, Jfdwolff, the quote from Jeremiah on my user page is in reference to the documentary hypothesis and how it is backed up even from within the Bible at face value. If I had such a lack of respect for tradition, then how come I always include the classical rabbinical viewpoint where the Jewish Encyclopedia mentions it?--User talk:FDuffy 14:51, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Re the Jeremiah quote, you have changed it to read: "How do you say "We are wise, and the Lord's torah is with us"? In fact here it was made for a lie, the lying pen of scribes" Try reading the original Hebrew... (Quod erat Demonstratum!) ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 15:59, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

FDuffy, the Jewish Encyclopedia is not the final word, neither on Rabbinical scholarship or on the Documentary Hypothesis. Quite on the contrary, it is >100 years old, and even in its day represented a stream in Rabbinical scholarship that was rather innovative (to use an euphemism). Many of the points you quote as the gospel (no pun intended) are highly, highly speculative and rather easily disproven by a slightly less radical look at the text.

I have no doubt that you want to improve the critical scholarship in Wikipedia, and I agree that articles should have reasonable coverage of all views in Bible articles, quite unlike your characterisation of me as a literalist and an anti-intellectual. Your big problem, as I've said only several times in the past, is your failure to cite your sources adequately. Have a look at aprotinin. Before I touched it, it looked monstrous - clearly written by someone with an agenda.[2] It lacked historical context, basic biochemistry etc etc. With the judicious use of good sources it wasn't even too difficult to arrive at the much more relevant, NPOV and well-sourced article that we have now. Similar things can be done with Bible articles. If you represent the POV of the Jewish Encyclopedia or Richard Elliott Friedmann, then CITE IT. However, if you are simply inserting your own thought, then stop, because WP:NOR is one of Wikipedia's strongest policies.

Have you thought about fixing your signature, by the way? JFW | T@lk 19:46, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree that this discussion suggests that there is some support for the Samuel-substituted-for-Saul theory. A remaining difficulty is that both the Jewish Encyclopedia and the New American Bible sources seem to use very tentative language, presenting the idea as something of a possibility or a speculative hypothesis, and don't provide a clear idea of how widely the view is held. This language doesn't seem to be consistent with the definite, even emphatic way that the idea is presented in the proposed content. It also doesn't seem to be consistent with statements that this is the view of "many" or "most" contemporary critical scholars. I also agree that terms like "textual scholars" may be unclear and suggest that the views of academic biblical critical scholars should be labeled more clearly, just as the views of rabbinical or Christian religious scholars are clearly labeled as such. Finally, it is often appropriate to separate religious and academic views of these subjects into separate sections, just as (for example) the Jewish Encyclopedia often does. I want to stress that the issue is not the inclusion of the views of Biblical Criticism as such, but issues such as the citing of sources, whether statements go further than can be supported by the sources cited, whether a hypothesis or speculation is presented as definitive, a minority view as a majority or principle view, etc. These are all nuts-and-bolts issues of ensuring that an encyclopedia provides appropriate coverage to the range of views held. Wikipedia is vulnerable to having an editor's favorite theory or own Original Research given undue weight or presented as fact. The content contained elements such as unclarity of sourcing, emphatic statements, statements like "most" scholars, etc. which are often clues that these sorts of problems may be present. More explicit sourcing including the use of standard sourcing formats, and more modest and measured statements about definiteness and evidentiary support, are usually best, and could prevent these sorts of difficulties. Best, --Shirahadasha 11:26, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

It is never appropriate to write articles in the style of a debate. See for example Template:Debate, the manual of style, and the quality standards.

I provided a link under "textual scholars" to textual criticism. That should be sufficient to clarify what is meant. Likewise the views of classical rabbinical scholars are marked by a link to Classical Rabbinical literature, Midrash, Talmud, Rashi etc. as appropriate.

Im not generally familiar with the views of modern Christian or Jewish (incl. Rabbi) religious scholars that meet the notability criteria, particularly as most modern Christian and Jewish sources seem to be from unnotable individuals (in respect to scholarship on the subjects in question) - I am aware of certain notable modern Christian and Jewish scholars, but they are not scholars in this field (NT Wright for example being a scholar concentrating on Paul the apostle). Thus being unaware of any notable views from modern Christian/Jewish scholars (by which I assume you mean modern notable Christian/Jewish scholars in the field in question who disagree with the other academics), I am unable to include them too.

The Jewish Encyclopedia does not present it tentatively. It says, about the traditional Samuel=heard by/of God view that it is not tenable. That doesn't look tentative to me. That looks very definite indeed. And the New American Bible states ...this explanation would be more directly appropriate for the name Saul..., which also looks pretty definite not tentative.

--User talk:FDuffy 18:44, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

WP:NPOV requires multiple points of view to be expressed in terms of A says X while B says Y. This is nonetheless in expository form, rather than back-and-forth arguments in the style used in a debate transcript.

Just in response to Codex: Jeremiah 8:8 is clearly about the ignorant pretending to be Torah scholars; for an unlearned person to read the "words of scribes" out of context or for the purposes of justifying ones unethical behaviour would turn these words into lies. Those "wiseguys" (as the prophet mockingly calls these people) have clearly despised God's word. (The commentary by Rav Joseph Breuer is especially enlightening here, but I will refrain from fanning the fires of this already overheated debate.) JFW | T@lk 19:56, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

But no, Francis chooses the distorted translation by R.E. Friedmann, look at the page Priestly source where he actually attributes this. JFW | T@lk 20:05, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Friedmann is a very well respected textual scholar. His version is no more distorted than the New International Version, and certainly less than the New Living Translation which says for Lev. 18:22 do not practice homosexuality: it is a detestable sin (lev. 18:22 actually mentions male-male anal sex, including male-male anal sex by heterosexuals (eg gay-for-pay, or slaves, or something) not simply being gay in general, and doesn't refer to lesbianism). --User talk:FDuffy 18:44, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Friedmann tries to read things into that sentence that are not readily there. It is quite a feat to suggest that Jer 8:8 refers to the scribes rather than the people purposedly misreading their writings - simply from the verse's context. I admire the creativity, but it's not the plain meaning - or pshat in the terminology of Jewish exegesis.

Lev 18:22 is completely ambiguous as to whether the intercourse is anal, penetrative etc. All it says is "ve-et zachar lo tishkav mishkevei isha" - "do not lie with a man as one would lie with a woman". The term mishkav is not necessarily penetrative, nor does it definitely indicate that it is anal. Only through exegesis does Jewish law take this to refer to male penetrative behaviour. Female homosexuality is only banned by rabbinic law in Judaism, and is not derived from this verse at all. JFW | T@lk 15:45, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

That was quite my point. --User talk:FDuffy 22:20, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

You were fairly unclear. You said "lev. 18:22 actually mentions male-male anal sex" while it doesn't. It is correct that while Jewish law forbids fantasising about sin, is does not ban "being gay" but rather the act. JFW | T@lk 23:21, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

FDuffy claims reprised

User:FDuffy claims that the Jewish Encyclopedia supports his position and brings a quote from it as evidence. The problem with this argument is that the Jewish Encyclopedia quote plainly opposed FDuffy's position. It plainly and clearly states that it is interpreting Samuel as representing "asked of" God -- Saul -that is untenable. The Jewish Encyclopedia not only provides no support for FDuffy's position, it strongly and emphatically opposes it. Here is the qoute again:

The name "Shemu'el" is interpreted "asked of Yhwh," and, as Ḳimḥi suggests, represents a contraction of , an opinion which Ewald is inclined to accept ("Lehrbuch der Hebräischen Sprache," p. 275, 3). But it is not tenable. The story of Samuel's birth, indeed, is worked out on the theory of this construction of the name (i. 1 et seq., 17, 20, 27, 28; ii. 20). But even with this etymology the value of the elements would be "priest of El" (Jastrow, in "Jour. Bib. Lit." xix. 92 et seq.). Ch. iii. supports the theory that the name implies "heard by El" or "hearer of El." The fact that "alef" and "'ayin" are confounded in this interpretation does not constitute an objection; for assonance and not etymology is the decisive factor in the Biblical name-legends, and of this class are both the first and the second chapter. The first of the two elements represents the Hebrew term "shem" (= "name"); but in this connection it as often means "son." "Shemu'el," or "Samuel," thus signifies "son of God" (see Jastrow, l.c.).

FDuffy's whole argument rests on an assumption that Hannah's answer must represent the etymology of Samuel's name, only if one believes this could an anomaly be perceived. The Jewish Encyclopedia takes the contrary position, stating that a purely etomological interpretation is "untenable." The sources FDuffy supplies simply do not check out in a very basic way. These claims should be removed. Best --Shirahadasha 14:34, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

It is not my argument. I do not make arguments, wikipedia is not about original research. What is or isn't logical, and whether or not you think it depends on belief, or the perception of an anomaly, is not important - you should not try to form an argument of this manner since you would be creating original research by doing so.

The argument clearly exists, is cited, and is notable - the only qualification required for being present in wikipedia. What you are disputing is whether the position is a majority one, and whether the Jewish Encyclopedia views the argument as accurate or not - as a Jewish Encyclopedia, in the era before editorial neutrality (ie wikipedia), I would hazard a guess that some editorial bias may have been present. This is not important; what is important is that the view exists, is notable, and mentioned by a respected encyclopedia. You would seem to be attempting to remove a view simply because you disagree with it - something not allowed.

As for other citations, which you have asked me to present, where this theory is produced:

• Concise Bible Commentary, WK Lowther-Clarke
• New English Bible (Oxford Study Edition) [footnote]
• New Jerusalem Bible [footnote]
• Peake's Commentary on the Bible

--User talk:FDuffy 21:34, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

-- Could you please provide standard references with author, title, publication date, ISBN, page numbers if possible? Thanks. --Shirahadasha 19:45, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I have reviewed an additional source user:FDuffy provided, Peake's Biblical Commentary and the version I found (Mathew Black, Peake's Commentary on the Bible. Routledge, 2001. ISBN 0415263557) says the following at p. 319:

Hannah named her son Samuel. The name, in the narrative, is interpreted as meaning "I have asked him of the Lord," but this interpretation belongs, etymologically, to the name Saul. It has therefore been suggested that the etymology, and probably the whole birth story with it, has been displaced from Saul to Samuel in the course of compilation or transmission.

I agree this commentary is a reliable source to support mention of the idea as a hypothesis. However, a plain reading suggests it describes the theory as a suggestion ("it has been suggested..."). This tentative statement of the view does not appear consistent with the use of emphatic language or claims that the idea is established among "most" academic scholars or with anything like the degree of evidence or support comparable to evolution. A lot of explanation (e.g. a later anti-monarchist author etc.) which does not appear to be in this source's commentary on the Hannah story (It may be elsewhere). The Hannah article (and others) need to be signifcantly toned down, to state only what the sources can support. It is the making of statements beyond what the sources can support, as well as Wikipedia's policy shouldering editors with the responsibility for supplying sources, that is at issue. If sources can simply supplied in accordance with policy, they could be quietly checked without all this fuss and bother. Best, --Shirahadasha 22:04, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

The anti-monarchist (aka republican) stuff is in the Jewish Encyclopedia (see for example the Samuel, Books of article) you will also find in Peake's at the start of the Samuel commentary (I.e. before 1 Samuel 1:1 is commented on).

Also note that the second sentence is quite definite - "but this interpretation belongs, etymologically to the name Saul", and not at all tentative - hence "most scholars" support the view that it belongs to Saul (to be true to the source one should perhaps say "all scholars", but evidently there will be some who disagree, just on religious grounds).

As a more general comment on Peakes, statements, suggestions, etc. given by the commentary are the majority view, unless otherwise stated, alternate views are given, or the view is attributed to a particular individual - these conditions are not met here, ergo it is the majority view. Other encyclopedia also present this view; Cheyne and Black for example state that it is "too clear for any trained biblical scholar to deny" and go so far as to propose the possibility that Saul may in fact be completely identical to Samuel (the latter being a theory that is definitely in a minority, and only suggested by Cheyne and Black as plausible, not probable).

As a word of caution, its probably best to be aware that Peake's is not out of copyright, and therefore that explicitely quoting from it verbatim is somewhat inappropriate (Im not sure of florida copyright law, so I dont know exactly how much can or cannot be quoted).

--User talk:FDuffy 22:18, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject Judaism Award

Check out - WikiProject Judaism Award. --JuanMuslim ^1m 03:28, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Judaism COTW

Yes, a Judaism COTW is now established. Please help out and lets make this work. Masterhomer File:Yin yang.png 04:28, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Sources for articles

I have just begun putting the public domain Jewish Encyclopedia online at Wikisource (see here). Not only is this an invaluable source of fantastic information; it can be mined for articles and images. Best of all, we can provide sources for statements by using projects within the Wikimedia family of projects. I encourage you to help in this effort. Danny 13:42, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

How does one cite and link a Jewish Encyclopedia article from this source? --Shirahadasha 15:19, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

It is a simple interproject link. Danny 17:59, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

You can also add a box like this in your external links section: Danny 18:31, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Article proposal: Sukkah (building)

The current Sukkah article is about the masechta, not about the structure. Any takers? Tomer^talk 22:06, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Roald Dahl's Anti-Semitism

Does anyone here have access to back issues of the British newspaper The Independent going back to 1990? The reason I ask is that I've worked for a while with other people on the Roald Dahl article dealing with his anti-Semitism. We've had a few anonymous users occasionally appear and try to reduce or delete this section of the article, but the charges are well-documented. Dahl long made anti-Semitic remarks, though he personally claimed to be only anti-Israel, not anti-Jewish. (It's a fact that he had several Jewish friends, who apparently viewed him as an Archie Bunker type.) However, shortly before his death in 1990, he finally admitted to The Independent that he was an anti-Semite. This last fact is one I remember being publicized back in 1990 when I was a teenager, but strangely I found no mention of it anywhere on the Internet. There was lots of information about Dahl's anti-Semitic statements in the 1980s, but it always gave the impression that Dahl went to his grave denying the charges. I finally dug up a reference to it in an old New York Times letter to the editor by Abraham Foxman that appeared shortly after Dahl's death, and this is the source I used in the Wikipedia article on Dahl. (The exact quote is as follows: "I am certainly anti-Israel, and I have become anti-Semitic.") I so far have not gained access to back issues of The Independent going back to 1990 (I think I'm going to try my local library). If anyone can get the exact citation of the article in which Dahl made this statement, I'd appreciate it. marbeh raglaim 15:33, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Have you tried the British library? It has back issues of pretty much everything published in the UK since 1900 (and before), including newspapers. --User talk:FDuffy 18:54, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Ha! As if I'm going to travel all the way to England just to verify this tiny fact. I guess anyone who lives near there might try; meanwhile, I'll look for sources closer to home. marbeh raglaim 03:55, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

sometimes you can get acess to back issues without paying if you declare youר browser as a Googlebot with a User agent switcher. Jon513 10:39, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

You don't mention where in the world you are, but your user page suggests the U.S. If you can identify the date of the story you want, then there is a fair chance that you can get microfiche of it on interlibrary loan. - Jmabel | Talk 05:18, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Conflicting names with Christian and Jewish Orthodoxy

Hi: I posted the following at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Eastern Orthodoxy#"Orthodoxy" alone is ambiguous. Thank you. IZAK 03:07, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Hello: This message deals with a number of issues stemming from the unclear use of the word "Orthodox" and "Orthodoxy." In the past Wikipedia has tried to avoid confusion between the names of Orthodox Judaism and Eastern Orthodox Christianity by not using the word "Orthodox" or "Orthodoxy" alone in titles when other qualifying words, such as "Church" or "Christian" (in the case of Eastern Christian Orthodoxy) or words such as "Synagogue" or "Jewish" (in the case of Orthodox Judaism, would help to qualify the usage of the name "Orthodox" or "Orthodoxy" so that any reader or editor on Wikipedia should not be confused by a title and should know from an article's or category's name whether that subject deals with either Orthodox Judaism or Eastern Orthodox Christianity (also called Orthodox Christianity). In the past there has been no objection to inserting either "church" or "Christian/ity" where the Eastern Orthodox Church articles or categories are concerned and I have tried to move in this direction. It is for this reason that I have made the nominations to rename the ambiguous categories at Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 September 14#Orthodox Christian categories. Yet it seems that some editors are not aware of this and I am bringing this to your attention. I will cross-post this message to Wikipedia:WikiProject Orthodox Judaism and to Wikipedia:WikiProject Judaism for further discussion. The implications for Wikipedia:WikiProject Eastern Orthodoxy is that it too should be renamed to Wikipedia:WikiProject Eastern Orthodox Church or Wikipedia:WikiProject Eastern Orthodox Christianity to avoid any confusion with Wikipedia:WikiProject Orthodox Judaism. Sincerely, IZAK 02:58, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Deletion review: Liozna and Larger than Life (books)

Please see: Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2006 September 19#Liozna and Larger than Life (books). Thank you. IZAK 06:40, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Help?

Sorry if this is the wrong place, I can't find a Jewish Wikipedian's notice board - is there one? This phrase was written in the Jewish Chronicle in 1877, it refers to a Jewish heiress marrying a British gentile aristocrat - can anyone explain to me, what they are trying to say - "If the flame seize on the cedars, how will fare hyssop on the wall: if the leviathan is brought up with a hook, how will the minnows escape" - I'm not Jewish and find it completely mystifying, I gather they are not happy but is their an explanation of the text? Any suggestions gratefully accepted. Its for an article I am writing here. Thanks in advance Giano 13:30, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not a member of this wikiproject or any wikiproject, and in fact, I'm just trolling your contributions, but I got your answer. It's from the Babylonian Talmud, I won't bother with its history, but original alongside a 'simple' translation by me is cited below followed by the answer:

“ אם בארזים נפלה שלהבת מה יעשו אזובי הקיר

אם לויתן בחכה הועלה מה יעשו דגי הרקק

אם בנחל שוטף נפלה חרבה מה יעשו מי גבים

If the flames seize upon the cedars, what will the hyssops on the wall do?

If the leviathan is brought up with a hook, what will the small fish do?

If the drout hits the dashing torrent, what will the waters of the purling brook do?

”

Answer: they will do many wonderful things. Anyway, the three lines above have a common thread, and the first one esp., is often used in modern Hebrew to denounce corruption of authority, i.e. 'if authority fails to do this or that, what sort of example does that set for the masses?' (the answer in the case of imperialism is, of course, very bad) So, for example: 'If the Arbitrators are not impartial, what will the un-connected editors do?' More generally, it can be seen to be saying: if major components are affected by something or other, how will that impact minor components. I hope this has been enlightening for you. [An interpretation of the original can be found here] Regards / בברכה , El_C 09:53, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks EL C, that is very helpful indeed. Giano 10:25, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Not at all. My pleasure! G'luck with the article. El_C 10:49, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Messianic Judaism vs. Judaism

In an ongoing POV attack, anons [3] [4] attempt to present Messianic Judaism as "the practice of the religion of Judaism". ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 22:34, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Barry Gurary article

Hi: Could you please take a look at the discussion concerning Conceptual backround: Hasidic dynastic disputes in the Barry Gurary article. See Talk:Barry Gurary#Dispute of content. Thanks. IZAK 03:47, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Wikiversity Torah Study

In the Division of Jewish Studies on Wikiversity, I'm starting up a Department of Torah Study] to provide for a way for the perpetual discussion of the parshah online. If anyone is able, I'd really appreciate some help getting the project off the ground. I think it could be really successful if we could get a group of people together who are willing to contribute to the discussion even once a month. Kari Hazzard (T | C) 18:21, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Happy New Year

Just wishing everyone a happy and successful New Year. Shana Tova! Masterhomer File:Yin yang.png 08:27, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Kashrut

Kashrut is up for a featured article review. Detailed concerns may be found here. Please leave your comments and help us address and maintain this article's featured quality. Sandy 14:53, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Nominated anti-Semitism for FAC

Vote here. Masterhomer File:Yin yang.png 04:24, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Rival Biblical views

I am moving this section from Wikipedia:WikiProject Judaism/Todo: it is supposed to be a list, not a discussion. No change in content. The note was so huge that it destroys formatting. Thanks. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 10:37, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Biblical Criticism has been formed to "to improve the coverage of material related to Biblical Criticism. I.e. to improve the provision of information deriving from academic rather than just religious sources" (see for example: Wikipedia:WikiProject Biblical Criticism/Torah list).

Input into articles from this "school of thought" has already been offensive to some members of Project:Judaism. Therefore, members of Project:Judaism are requested to be alert to efforts that would radically change the classical teachings of Judaism on related subjects.

Someone seems to have failed to understand Neutral Point of View. "Rival views" suggests that WikiProject Judaism has a "view" - which is a complete failure to comprehend NPOV. A "call to arms" against "radically changing the classical teachings of Judaism" (which by the way are often different to modern Judaism's views, such as interpreting parts of Hosea as referring to a cult of spiced human skulls, which Hosea saw as positive) is totally against Wikipedia's principles.

Wikiprojects are not POV-pushing exercises, and should not be made into such things. Quite what anyone could have against making sure that not only religious sources (such as [hypothetical] Rabbi Jones who has a spot on channel 6) are included but also academic sources (which, by the way, include midrash etc. where available), is incomprehensible. — Preceding unsigned comment added by FDuffy (talk • contribs)

• Duffy old chap: NPOV does not mean "NO POV" (ie "not having any point of view") because if someone wants to know what classical Judaism has been teaching about Hosea in its commentaries then that view (and not yours and what your professors are teaching you) must be conveyed first and truthfully. The traditional teachings must not be chopped up into unrecognizable interpretations by the "Bible CRITICS" (why don't they take up Film criticism instead?) and by modern POV-pushing secular professors in universities who mostly hate religious people, hate religion, hate rabbis, hate the outlook of classical rabbinic literature, and are in love with their own narrow Bible-bashing atheistic breast-beating anti-Judaic teachings. One cannot have secular views of religion dominate the roost, as much as one cannot have religious views of every scientific subject under the sun spoil articles about science. You are making unfair accusations that this group is "pushing views" (what views? is the factual NPOV truth a "view"?) when all it is trying to do is convey what Judaism has been teaching faithfully for millenia and NOT what Rabbi Jones (hahahaha, is he Jewish by the way?) teaches the stupid masses on TV. For goodness sakes man, get a grip on yourself! IZAK 12:07, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't disagree with Francis' insistence that articles should at least contain DH views. Yes, it's apokorsus, and I won't be the person writing it. What has annoyed me about Francis' contributions is the creation of a large number of articles with inadequate sourcing. Simply listing some popular books, such as by the infallible R.E. Friedman, is completely inadequate in controversial topics.

I would also insist that the "classical" interpretation is provided by default, with the academic/DH view brought seperately in a section dedicated to it. This will show clearly the differences between long-held popular belief (for which millions died during persecutions) and the concoctions of a group of people bent on distorting the history of Judaism and the Jews. The suggestion that Hosea endorsed spiced skulls is laughable (what would one do with a spiced skull anyway? smoke it?). Have you considered a prophet may be using metaphors to eloquently state his point? JFW | T@lk 12:55, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Category vote

Please provide your view at Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 October 10#Category:Saintly person tombs in Israel. Thank you. IZAK 03:46, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Vote to delete Medzhibozh (Hasidic dynasty)

I have written the following to the nominator:

Meshulam: You should avoid this kind of move (the hasty nomination to delete Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Medzhibozh (Hasidic dynasty)) because it's a slippery slope and could lead to the nomination for and deletion of similar articles about smaller Hasidic dynasties - by people who are not experts and don't care - with unintended consequences. Votes to delete are open to the world and you are inviting people who have no idea what this topic is about at all to cast a vote, which is very unfair and lacking insight. It seems that you may have been better off trying to add a {{merge to}} template or considered MERGING the material at some point perhaps and WAITED (at least a month!) to do so. You should also have first started a discussion at a number of places where people who know something about this topic could have given their intelligent input, such as at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism and Wikipedia talk:Orthodox Rabbinical Biography Collaboration of the Week. Or you could have contacted other editors who deal with topics like this to solicit their views. This action of your is extreme and I do not condone it. I urge you to withdraw this nomination. Thank you. (I am cross-posting this message on a couple of relevant places, to get people's attention.) IZAK 10:26, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Bible

There is currently a dispute over the future fate and scope of the Bible article. Someone has enlisted the help of WikiProject Christianity on this matter, so (because this dispute has to do with including the Jewish POV) I am returning the favor here. Comments over at Talk:Bible are encouraged. Thank you for your consideration.--Andrew c 20:29, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Weekly Torah portion FAC: expert help needed.

Hi,

I recently nominated the Bereishit parsha article for FA here. However, it has run into a little difficulty because one of the editors feels that the article is not comprehensive enough, but doesn't know enough about Judaism to tell me what is needed. Could I ask you to check this article and, if it needs more to it, either add it yourself or explain what is needed on the FAC and I'll have a go. If it doesn't require anything, please also explain that on the FAC. Votes of support, of course, are also welcome. :) Thankyou, Dev920 (check out this proposal) 23:15, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Jews in apostasy

Jews in apostasy article needs attention. IZAK 10:47, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

The Seven Worlds, is it Kabbalah?

Please review the The Seven Worlds article. What is fact and waht is fiction? Anyone know? IZAK 11:06, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Is the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn Qabbalah the same thing as the Jewish Kabbalah? --Shirahadasha 16:43, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

There are many derivative forms of kabbalah, some of which are initially from Jewish sources but have left their roots substantially. In the Middle Ages there was remarkable interest in Jewish mysticism (see Nostradamus) but much of it is completely out of key with what an Orthodox (or even Conservative) scholar would understand to be Kabbalah. JFW | T@lk 21:09, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Articles for deletion/The Seven Worlds

What do you make of this Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Seven Worlds 2? Thanks. IZAK 09:05, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Holy of Holies, Most Holy Place, or Kodesh Kedoshim

I created a stub under Holy of Holies to address the location in the Tabernacle, Temple in Jerusalem and Temple Mount. There's a proposal under Talk:Holy of Holies either to merge it into Most Holy Place or to create a new article called something like Kodesh Kadoshim devoted specifically to this purpose. Please share any thoughts you might have on the subject in the discussion taking place at Talk:Holy of Holies. Best, --Shirahadasha 00:41, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Most Holy Place seems to be an article that complies a list of holiest places according to different religions. I don't really see a need for it. Jon513 12:23, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Holy of Holies, definitely. If there is an English term that umambiguously refers to that subject in question then WP:NC dictates that term is to be used (e.g. Passover). The content presently on Most Holy Place (which is a hodgepodge) can be moved to Shirahadasha's new stub. JFW | T@lk 19:45, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Edits to Korban

User:FDuffy has made extensive edits to the Korban article, including, in typical fashion, citing the Jewish Encyclopedia as a whole without bothering to identify a specific article, and adding a provocative section entitled "Human Sacrifice" claiming a dark origin in human sacrifice based on the views of a single individual (assuming the individual actually said it) characterized as fact and as what "Biblical scholars" as a whole believe. I'm going to wait to comment myself until I've had a chance to review this user's claims, but perhaps others might want to comment now. At the very least, biblical-criticism type claims should go in a separate section. Best, --Shirahadasha 20:44, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

This is getting beyond the joke. I'm happy supporting an WP:RFAr against this user for consistently failing to adhere to the most basic Wikipedia policy. WP:NPOV, WP:RS/WP:CITE, Wikipedia:Tendentious editing and WP:NOR are all being violated here.

I'm fully aware of the DH proponents claiming that Judaism evolved from Kanaanite sects that practiced human sacrifice (even Dan Brown lends his reputation to this view), based on the circular argument that bans on these customs were only introduced in sources that they consider to have been of later date. If we are to include these nefarious claims, we should at least demand the highest level of sourcing and critiques from traditional scholars. JFW | T@lk 00:37, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject Conservative Judaism

I would like to create a project to help improve the series of articles dealing with Conservative Judaism. What do I need to do in order to create a new WikiProject? Is anyone interested? --yonkeltron 08:31, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

You don't really need to do anything except start it. Remember, be bold! I'd be interested in helping if you could get it going. Kari Hazzard (T | C) 12:19, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I think it would be useful to carefully delineate the scope of such a WikiProject. Of course Conservative viewpoints deserve airtime, but it needs to be quite clear what POV is Conservative and what POV is Orthodox. We have previously had a Conservative-affiliated editor trying to redefine Orthodoxy according to his POV, causing incessant edit wars. JFW | T@lk 12:30, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Good idea, one of the goals should be to clearly define the POV and relationships with other projects. Thanks for the advice. --yonkeltron 21:22, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

(after edit conflit)you don't need a wikiproject - if you want to improve the articles, just go ahead an improve them. Wikiprojects are unnessiary when there are only a few editors involved, talk pages would work much better. Also, this wikiproject can with help with article related to conservative judasim. Still, if you want to creat a wikiproject you should read this. Jon513 12:28, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

By that logic, however, why is there WP:OJ? Kari Hazzard (T | C) 21:29, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't think there should be a wikiproject for orthodox judaism. It just makes another page I have to watch. This project isn't so active as to make it nessisary to have splinter projects. Often items are posted on both project! whats the point of that! having another project for conservative judasim would just make the problem worse. Jon513 17:35, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Shlosheth haReghalim

Question here. Tomer^talk 23:52, 28 October 2006 (UTC)