Talk:Scientific method

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Archive 12

This talk page certainly needs archiving. Not a chance of seeing the whole thing in Blazer. Could someone who has been paying attention oblige? Banno 00:07, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Done. --Ancheta Wis 01:29, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Ancheta Banno 02:07, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, makes it a lot easier no matter what my space-time coordinates are. ... Kenosis 02:08, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Take a look at what I did on Talk Page cleanup issues for the Wiki entry for psychokinesis. Go to the Discussion page there and see the notice. Not everyone is aware that if you delete something, it is still available in the archive. Also, I've sometimes included a time limit on my and others' postings, giving everyone the right to delete after a certain date: "After 10 days, I propose this discussion block can be deleted (moved to the archive section) to keep this page from filling up again. (If you are reading this on [date] or later, then delete this entire discussion block.)" Seems to work to everyone's satisfaction over at that entry. You might want to try someting like that here, 10 days, 30 days, whatever. Some Talk entries, however, deserve to stay indefinitely obviously. Anything can be restored though. 208.50.10.5 15:21, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Suggestion for Peer Review Section - classified research and corporate R&D

In reading the article, I noticed that there was no mention that some scientific research is not available for peer review/publishing, such as classified research for the government and corporate research and development projects. A one sentence addition would be useful about that. This suggestion can be deleted (archived) if someone makes it so. 208.50.10.5 15:34, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Removed material

This material placed yesterday into the introduction by User:Faaaa, removed yesterday: ... Kenosis 13:12, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

• The fundamental assumption of the scientific method is that the scientific "laws" should always be space-time position independant or bounded to strictly defined space-time co-ordinates.This assumption is made to preserve that experiments and their results are also space-time position independant or space-time position bounded, so that it is not necessary to repeat experiments into all space-time co-ordinates in order to be able to prove a scientific theory. If the laws that govern experiments are position dependant and/or cannot be bounded in a specific space-time position, then the experiments have to be repeated to all space-time co-ordinates (or to all bounded space-time co-ordinates the scientific theory requires), in order for the scientific theory to be proved. ... 13:12, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

This placed today by User:Faaaa [1]), removed and placed here for analysis and further consideration. ... Kenosis 13:12, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

• Scientific method deals only with repeatable events. This is a fundamental assumption of the method, which assumes that all natural phenomena should be underlied to repetition. Hardcore scientists claim that non repeatable natural phenomena do not exist and never existed, as long as they cannot be repeated and tested through experiment. ... 13:12, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

This introduction was thoroughly parsed by about 8 different editors several months ago. Any significant changes should be well researched and justified on this page. ... Kenosis 13:12, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Scientific method assumes that space-time is homogenous. The method can only deal with repeatable events. Why dont you mention this into the article? I think it is essential mentioning it. Faaaa 22:34, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I have a couple of issues with the new material. A model is tested, and this will generally cover a multitude of possible events, none of which are repeatable exactly. For example masses are never measured precisely. So events themselves don't have to be repeatable as long as the model can still be tested. Stephen B Streater 22:49, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

The non repeatable events you are mentioning are related eachother. Scientists insert into their theory, experiment and measurement the possibility of a statistical error, and this error is expected to be below a predefined percentage. As long as the error in measurements are not above this predefined percentage, then the theory is considered to be correct. But in that case we are not talking about non repeatable events, we are talking about related repeatable events that may differ eachother just a little bit, and we define how little this bit may be. Could you please give me an example, where scientific method deals whith non repeatable, unrelated eachother, events? I dont think so. The method requires for the events to be repeatable, or almost repeatable. Faaaa 23:03, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Newtonian dynamics. Almost identical initial conditions can lead to widely divergent outcomes, for example with double pendulums. Chaos theory predicts this behaviour, which can be tested, but no event is repeatable enough to exhibit the same or even similar positions over time. Stephen B Streater 23:17, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Let me doubt a little bit that Chaos theory is able to predict Newtonian dynamics. It predicts, but always under the possibility of a statistical error. Even in the case that accurate predictions can be made by Chaos theory, scientific method still assumes that space-time is homogenous, in order for the Chaos theory to be valid in all space and time, and thus beeing able to predict the Chaotic behavior of Newtonian dynamics. Faaaa 23:27, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Faaaa, please provide citations. Otherwise, it's OR, and inadmissable. 220.244.221.35 23:46, 20 July 2006 (UTC)(that was me - dang IE - Banno 00:03, 21 July 2006 (UTC))

Plenty of citations. Search about space-time homogeneity, space-time isotropy, or Cosmological Principle. Scientific method assumes that principle, and I think we should mention it. Faaaa 23:56, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, the citations should be here, not in other unlinked articles; secondly, what you propose is a contentious issue in philosophy of science, not a verifiable part of scientific method. At the least, you need to provide citations, and move the material to the correct secton. Banno 00:03, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

There is also the issue of organization of content in the article. The intro is already slightly too long, but it was decided to live with it. More will need to be a central aspect that runs the gamut of variations in method for different fields of inquiry, as well as be concise and accurately stated. ... Kenosis 00:00, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

yeh, i know

Ball lightning citation

The ball lighting which killed Georg Richmann was observed by Sokolow, his engraver. cites are Clarke, Ronald W. Benjamin Franklin, A Biography. Random House (1983) p. 87 and Physics Today, vol. 59, #1, p.42. --Ancheta Wis 10:16, 22 July 2006 (UTC) -- (Sokolow survived the experiment.)

Homogeneity

dunno who started adding this. but I don't think it helps or is accurate. it was a major change and wasn't discuss. pls discuss and get agreement before major changes Mccready 15:29, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

see section above re: Removed material. i don't agree with its addition. This idea does not belong in the introduction. David D. (Talk) 17:53, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi David. A valid equation in physics must be homogeneous. Homogeneity is the the quality of having all properties independent of the position. Scientific method assumes that the world is homogeneous. There is no example I can give about it, its an axiom. Scientists, in order for their inductive and deductive reasoning to stand , they are bound to believe that the natural world is homogeneous. They cannot deal with the possibility that the laws of physics could be dependant of space-time position, because in that case their reasoning turns irrational. Faaaa 09:42, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I assume that I am talking to scientists, who are well known for their effort to be reasonable. My questions are.

1. Is scientific method capable to deal with a natural world that is not homogeneous. yes or no ?
2. If no, then why this is not mentioned into the article? Is it reasonable and scientific to hide the fact that we can understand and predict only in case the natural world is homogeneous ?

The reason we named our natural world homogeneous is because we want to be able to understand it and predict it. Due to our appetence to understand and predict, we repulsed the possibility that the natural world may not be homogeneous, although we have plenty of evidences of that possibility (see Physical paradoxes, black holes e.t.c.) Faaaa 09:42, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

As with a many words and phrases, homogeneous may not translate into a word in Korean which has the same connotations as it does in English. Yes, a physical principle or law that applies in London is also expected to apply in New York and Seoul (and even in Pyongyang). But it should not be necessary to explain this in the article on scientific method. This concept is currently dealt with in a number of other articles such as theory, Physical law, and commentary on the idea in Falsifiability#Physics. The article on scientific method is not limited to physics but must also accommodate many other disciplines where certain "universals" may in fact be location-dependent and must be defined accordingly, which is one of many reasons why the article is written the way it presently is (I'm not saying the article can't be improved). But "homogeneous" is definitely not the term used to express the concept of "universal" appicability of physical principles. ... Kenosis 13:01, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

That current physical theories, quantities do indeed exhibit symmetries, invariances, etc under transformations in space, time has in fact been observed and inferred. For example, conservation of mass was once thought to be the case. Once observations started breaking the conservation of mass, it's accuracy was put into question and, like many older laws, is now seen only true as some low-velocity limit (to use relativity as an example), or when mass-defect is negligible/irrelevant.

The fact that science would crumble if Reality(TM) were merely a jumble of uncorrelated, randomly changing rules and laws coupled with the fact that science is hugely successful all the way from the mundane to the esoteric lends scientific evidence that the universe *does* exhibit this kind of homogeneity you're alluding to. Basically, this homogeneity is tested, like every other aspect of science, with every single observation and experiment. It is not an assumption. No one is claiming that there aren't any exceptions to current theories, nor is anyone suggesting that all of Reality(TM) will be amenable to all-encompassing laws (though many are trying to formulate those laws). Rather, we can observe that it's tending that way.

To answer your question (1), of course it could. Being a bit loose with definitions, if there were an appartment somewhere in Nevada where a mass moving with velocity v actually had energy 10mv^2, then we would have to accept that moving masses have kinetic energy 0.5mv^2, except in Flat 24, Weirdness Drive, Las Vegas, NV, where it will have kinetic energy 10mv^2. It wouldn't be pretty, but it would be coped with. Tez 13:34, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Tez, I sure as hell hope that's not an argument for the application of the word "homogeneous" to explain "universal generalizations" ;-) Thank you for a superlative explanation. ... Kenosis 15:20, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Isn't the correct term symmetry? Stephen B Streater 09:14, 3 August 2006 (UTC).

And a symmetry is an invariant under a transformation. (This topic is not part of scientific method. It is discussed extensively elsewhere.) --Ancheta Wis 09:35, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree. The Scientific Method doesn't make assumptions about the nature of laws of the universe. Many things are non-scientific, and these are not covered by science. Stephen B Streater 09:49, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

JA: There was a lot of discussion in the 19th century about the role of homogeneity and regularity assumptions in science. Whether homegeneity and regularity are same thing or not is another good question. Based on a fundamental theme out of Aristotle, J.S. Mill and others derived a few simple inferences about the "regularity of nature" and its salience in science. But the analysis of C.S. Peirce, as usual, showed that the real situation was not as simple as it had been supposed. The issues involved here go to the root of scientific inquiry, and so I will take them up under the more general heading below. Jon Awbrey 14:06, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Some limitations are to be found in the discussion of Eddington's net: a scientist casts a net with a mesh of 2 inches. He catches no fish smaller than ... guess how big? --Ancheta Wis 18:29, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

On the nature of method

JA: Being, I'm guessing, the only person or even quasi-person here with a degree in "Mathematical and Philosophical Method" (BA MPM, JMC, MSU, 1976), I feel quasi-qualified to say something on the nature of method, scientific method in particular.

JA: The first thing to know about any method is that it involves a voluntary limitation. So when you say that a method is limited this is just a tautology. It is the limit that makes it a method. The question is whether the limit that you are talking about is the one that is built into the method from the start, or perhaps some other limit that was not intended.

JA: When it comes to scientific method, the limit that defines the method was identified some time ago by Aristotle. I will comment on this after I finish my coffee. Jon Awbrey 12:16, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

On the not so fundamental status of causality

JA: I have corrected a slight overstatement of the status of causality in science. I think that my qualifications are a fairer summary of the literature, and it's easy to come up with many citations from the likes of anybody from Peirce to Heisenberg if anybody feels the need to do so. Jon Awbrey 20:45, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

In my estimation, this is an apt correction you made in the callout box, which has my support. I appreciated your qualification of falsifiability which covers the appropriate base about Popper and modus tollens. ... Kenosis 21:13, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

On the role of probability

I'm surprised so little is mentioned on the role of probability, in several areas:

1. Precision of measurement and importance of including it in calculations and results.

2. Weighing of the (estimated) probability of the truth of a hypothesis with the effort involved in resolving it further. Failing to do this well is one of the main hindrances to scientific progress. For example, there was a time when the vast majority of doctors chose not to spend 30 seconds washing their hands between patients because they assigned an unreasonably low probability to the validity of the microbe hypothesis, or were simply too lazy, or both. It seems a true scientist would at least be willing to try it for a few months to conduct his own experiment. We must be careful to consider ourselves part of the "enlightened age of enlightened thinking"--those doctors probably felt the same way.

3. Philosophy: nothing can be totally proven and nothing can be totally disproven (only seat-of-the-pants probabilities can be assigned) because the laws of a universe cannot be proven consistent from within that universe. Yes, we've even learned "logic" by observing our universe.

-QZ27, Aug 13, 2006

Thank you for your contribution. This is covered by the references to Bayesian inference. --Ancheta Wis 19:34, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Nice article!

Just posting to say my first impression of a quick look through the article is a really good one, and I especially like the bit unorthodox way of merging the DNA examples into the article to exemplify the topics that could otherwise be a bit abstract. I haven't seen the method in much use in Wikipedia, but I think it works really well. :-) -- Northgrove 22:02, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your kind words. --Ancheta Wis 23:24, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Observation as first step

Kenosis, I advise you to revert your removal of observation from the callout box. I understand your concern, but I point out that the author(s) of the text have been careful to introduce observation as a 'facet' of scientific method and not as an initial step. This could be clarified without removing the text on observation.

By the way, in the article 'theory ladenness' is mentioned without reference to Popper. Isn't it Popper who speaks of 'falsifying hypotheses' rather than 'falsifying facts'. And isn't it Popper who first argued that observation can't be the first step (Yeah, I know Lakatos argued the same, but I expect he got there later). Anyhow I always thought theory ladenness was Popper's baby. --Chris 15:56, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree. The box says "The scientific method involves the following basic facets". Observation is one of the basic facets of science present at every step. It is not the first step as the initial addition claimed, but it still needs to be in the box.--Roland Deschain 16:43, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

This particular callout box was largely derived from the text Research Methods in Psychology (don't recall which author, there are several such texts by this title) and is presented as one of several ways scientific method is delineated or summarized. Originally it was summarized as "description", "prediction", "control (where possible and appropriate)" and "understanding", along with the three-point addition about "time-order relationships", "covariation of events" and "identification of causes to the best achievable extent". Someone has since replaced "understanding" with "falsifiability" and attached to "falsifiability" the supplementary content about increasing confidence levels in the results of a hypothesis or theory as observations are confirmed or contradicted in accordance with the research. That's Wikipedia for ya'.

As I stated in the edit summary, observation runs throughout the entire process. Please read the already existing text-- although much of it is currently lacking in explicit citations, this article has had ongoing participation by experts in the subject, including several professional scientists. The article amply describes how observation fits into the method at every stage of the process. Two paragraphs down from the second callout box is a paragraph stating that observation is inevitably "theory laden", that is, driven by the concepts one intends to pursue at any given stage of observation. An entire section is devoted to abductive reasoning, in addition to several additional mentions of the concept. A mere reference to "observation" is meaningless here-- everyone observes, including scientists, non-scientists, junk-scientists and pseudoscientists alike. What the article describes is how, in summary, scientific method involves specific kinds of observation, the relevant analysis, further focused observation, adaptation of the focus of the research, further analysis and testing, documentation of all data so others can similarly direct their testing and analysis, etc. ... Kenosis 16:45, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

As you said, observation runs throughout the entire process: therefore it should be mentioned right away in a prominent place. Especially as it is in the rest of the article, it should be included in the box. "Everybody observes" is a true statement, but that doesn't change the argument at all. Critical observation is still part of the scientific method, even though my mother uses it when she does pancakes and my father uses it when fixing the car. A concept should not be excluded just because it is present in other ways of life. Creationist observe that life is complex, yet they are not scientific as the rest of their method is radically different. Observation is such a huge and varied field in science that it needs a mention but cannot be fully exposed in this article as it is such a huge and varied topic. Here are a couple of websites that reflect the predominance of observation [2], [3], [4], [5] (these are all quick and dirty google searches, and it was that easy finding supporting evidence) --Roland Deschain 17:03, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Point taken, and accepted. Thank you kindly. ... Kenosis 04:47, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Standard scientific method?

I would like to challenge the statement that we have documented the standard scientific method. From the 'Elements...' section I quote,

"While this schema is currently accepted as standard scientific method..."

If we mean 'standard' in the sense that a research body has seen fit to institutionalize this version of the method, then we should cite the standard. I have inserted the {{fact}} template. On the other hand, if we merely mean that it is standard in the sense that it is typical of how the scientific method is schematized, then it would be more accutare to say just that. --Chris 19:47, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Chris, I agree that the statement is too strong. What about something like "While this schema may be typical of scientific method, ...". --Ancheta Wis 20:58, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I've narrowed the statement and provided one citation for now. I should point out that this section was written with a cautious eye on the perspectives of Popper, Kuhn, Thagard, Lacatos, among others, and it generally applies irrespective of paradigm shifts, ant-colony behavior among scientists, jealous covetry of the next big breakthrough, etc. And nothing escapes Feyerabend. As Hugh Gauch put it in Scientific Method in Practice (2003), commenting on Feyerabend's sociological perspective: "Such critiques are unfamiliar to most scientists, although some may have heard a few distant shots from the so-called science wars. Scientists typically find those objections either silly or aggravating, so rather few engage such controversies or bother to contribute in a sophisticated and influential manner. But in the humanities, those deep critiques of rationality are currently quite influential. Anyway, by that reckoning, Figure 1.1 [which diagrams scientific method with a core set of principles and many specialized branches representing particular fields] should show blank paper."

In addition to the two callout boxes outlining aspects of scientific method generally, the Wikipedia article outlines a seven point description of the hypothesis/testing cycle, as follows:

1. Define the question
2. Gather information and resources
3. Form hypothesis
4. Perform experiment and collect data
5. Analyze data
6. Interpret data and draw conclusions that serve as a starting point for new hypotheses
7. Publish results

If this isn't standard, I don't know what is. ... Kenosis 22:08, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Kenosis, one difficulty is the level of abstraction at any iteration of scientific method. As an example from the craft of movie production, one director might say "move the field of view of the camera to coordinate (x y)", a low-level command which a robot could execute; another director might say "float the scene", a fairly abstract command which an expert cameraman could then implement. In effect the director has delegated something to the cameraman instead of forcing a situation of micromanagement. (In the article, then, the various versions of the callout boxes basically allow different populations to uphold scientific method with varying degrees of understanding. This is a good thing.) To bring a camera into perfect mathematical focus is not possible. There is always the circle of confusion in a situation where physical optics holds and the robot may have obeyed a command which made no physical difference to the movie, whereas the cameraman just may have 'gone with the flow'. My difficulty with 'standard' is the connotation of 'required'; that is what 'typical' might have avoided. But if we are attempting something else in the article, that might be noted. --Ancheta Wis 22:32, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely Ancheta, yes. This is, of course, very much what the general concept of abduction speaks to, and what Peirce was grappling with. Maybe let's go get high sometime and just observe things for awhile; stream of consciousness; maybe give the Feyerabend advocates another validation of their position. I'll go change that to "typical" now, if someone else hasn't already.... Kenosis 02:11, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Science and Hypothesis

Stanislaw Ulam in his autobiography Adventures of a Mathematician recommended Poincaré's Science and Hypothesis to all. A link to an e-print of this classic is listed in the bib. of the article. --Ancheta Wis 21:17, 6 September 2006 (UTC) But the font of the e-print is pretty strong. Maybe it was meant to be read to a class of students in a classroom.

The

Shouldn't this article begin with a The? Has this debate already been had? Isn't it, "The Scientific method is a body of techniques..." Mathiastck 06:58, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, right at the top of Archive 11, there is debate on the definite article The. --Ancheta Wis 08:17, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok well I vote to include "The" next time :) Mathiastck 18:12, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

At the outset of the discussion about this issue, User:Wjbeaty pointed out some of the published current discussion in the field per WP:VER and WP:RS. He said: "Many scientists object to ... the very concept The Scientific Method, and they fight to get it removed from grade-school textbooks. Examples:

• D. Simanek, physicist
• J. Denker, physicist
• P. Bridgman, physicist
• R. Feynman, physicist
• W. McComas
• H. Baur, chemist

Experience has taught that scientific method should be viewed as a cluster of techniques or body of techniques. When diagrammed it might look something like a sunflower with an identifiable core with a bunch of petals representing various fields of science. Add or remove a few petals, and it still looks like a sunflower. Kenosis 19:23, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

My modest opinion: I disagree on "The". A laboratory experiment, a computer simulation, a theoretical model: all may be scientific but are far from using a unique and univocal method. One thing is to single out a body of criteria in order to define if a method of inquiry is scientific, and another is to say that there is only one such method. Also (but I might be wrong), I think there is an implicit usage in Wikipedia so as to use "The..." in reference to a book or a specific theory (e.g. "interpretation of dreams" and "The Interpretation of Dreams"). -- Typewritten 08:21, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Removed sentence from intro

I've removed the following sentence from the first paragraph of the intro, for further consideration as to its accuracy and relevance in the intro. Perhaps it was an attempt to explain the concept of a theory?, which is already introduced elsewhere. Also, there were previously some concern about whether the statement "All such evidence is collectively called scientific evidence" belonged in that paragraph, so I've removed that pending a clarification on whether it's needed in the lead paragraph. ... Kenosis 16:54, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

• All such evidence is collectively called scientific evidence and is used as a means of structural cohesion to that new information. This new information or scientific evidence, becomes a building block to that structure or particular body of knowledge. ... 16:54, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Good call I think. --Chris 22:13, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Peirce

I've removed the large section on Peirce's theory. There does not appear to be a good reason to single him out for a special place in this article. Banno 21:32, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

A clear and succinct introduction is needed

In my interpretation www.wikinfo.org has a much more clear and succinct introduction for "scientific method":

"The scientific method is a multi-step continuous and iterative process to expand knowledge by observation of phenomenon, formulation of hypotheses, experimentation, verification and unification. The details of the process might vary from one field of inquiry to another but share the same core abstract principles. In addition to the above, other principles include requiring research to be objective, logical, open to refinement and accepting of external criticism."

What do you think? I think the current version of this article is needlessly wordy and has confusing sentence construction and its introduction misses the abstract essence of the scientific method. zen apprentice T 18:53, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Here are a couple of defenitions from the internet:

• "The scientific method is the process by which scientists, collectively and over time, endeavor to construct an accurate (that is, reliable, consistent and non-arbitrary) representation of the world."[6]
• "The principles and empirical processes of discovery and demonstration considered characteristic of or necessary for scientific investigation, generally involving the observation of phenomena, the formulation of a hypothesis concerning the phenomena, experimentation to demonstrate the truth or falseness of the hypothesis, and a conclusion that validates or modifies the hypothesis."[7]
• "The scientific method is the experimental testing of a hypothesis formulated after the systematic, objective collection of data."[8]
• "The scientific method is a process used to systematically investigate observations, solve problems, and test hypotheses."[9]

The current into, I totally agree, has to be rewritten. It has no citations, which shouldn't be really hard to get for such a prevelant topic.--Roland Deschain 19:38, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Added a citation for Isaac Newton's Principia to give proper credit to the central figure of the scientific revolution. --Ancheta Wis 21:54, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Just so you know, the 4 rules of reasoning can be read at History of scientific method. 21:58, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Why do you want me to know them? One person's list of rules is incomplete compared to a clear and succinct summary that points toward the abstract essence of the subject. zen apprentice T 05:31, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the intro could be better. I'm less certain that the article should be reduced to an essentialist vision of scientific method. However, such a view might make a worthwhile addition to the article if citations can be provided. Chris 11:38, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Please expand on what you mean by "essentialist vision"? I mostly mean "succinct summary" using simple sentence construction and unambiguous language. In your interpretation how is my proposed summary introduction above at odds with the rest of the article or the subject such that citations would be required? zen apprentice T 16:31, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

What I mean by "essentialist" is the view that although scientific method appears to be a diversity of things, it is nevertheless a cohesive idea to the extent that a common thread, or essence as you put it, maintains throughout. What's more, the essentialist would consider this essence of highest import. In opposition to this, we might think a methodology is important in that it differs from other methodologies. So, for example, Popper's method shares some characteristics with Bacon's (observation, experiment, emphasis on falsifying instances) but the similarities, although perhaps interesting, do not highlight what is important in either method. I asked for citations since I thought the essentialist view unusual, not to mention unlikely. I reserve this if you meant something different. --Chris 21:02, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I am not saying my proposed hopefully succinct introduction above is perfect, just that it is better than the current hodgepodge needlessly wordy and unclear introduction. I would say the scientific method is not a cohesive idea but an abstract concept or a non-concrete methodology, the only really "essential" part separate from observation, hypothesizing, experimentation and verification is that it is an iterative process which does not produce an absolute conclusion [much confusion exists on this point]. I still find it odd that you are asking me for citations for something that is mostly a condensed/summary version of the current introduction, how exactly is what you are labelling the "essentialist" view "unusual" or "unlikely" compared with the current introduction? zen apprentice T 01:08, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Your criticism might be more helpful if you explain in detail, word for word if necessary, what specifically you see as wordy or unclear. Since I should practice what I preach, it is the text "core abstract principles" I object to in the introduction you propose for reasons already mentioned. In the current introduction we speak of "identifiable features that distinguish scientific inquiry" which leaves open, to my mind, the question of whether all those features are always present. The second paragraph of the introduction talks of repetition rather than iteration. There’s not much to choose between 'repetition' and 'iteration', but I prefer the former since iteration suggests to me something almost mechanical.

Just to explain one point, scientific method can be considered a cohesive idea without recourse to essentialism. Wittgenstein's family of usages suggests one way and I imagine there are others. Maybe you could clarify your last question. Are you asking why I believe the essentialist view unlikely? Or are you asking to what extent I see the current intro meets or diverges from an essentialist conception of scientific method? --Chris 05:59, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

The phrase "body of techniques" portrays too concrete a concept given that specific rules might vary from one field of inquiry to another. Only "core [abstract] principles" or at least less concrete "rules of thumb" can be common among something that is variable...? The first sentence of the current introduction reads like a definition which I consider to be incomplete because a key point, iteration/repetition, is not mentioned until later and mentioned insufficiently explicitly. I chose "iterative process" to hopefully convey that the process repeats forever or at least does not produce an absolute conclusion in and of itself [much confusion exists on this point]. The word "repetition" by itself to me means repeating the exact same concrete process over and over again which I consider to be incomplete/misleading, it's better to note the scientific method's repetitive nature more explicitly but also less specifically, something to the effect of: iteration is inherent in the scientific method. "Recursive" might actually work better than either "repetition" or "iterative" now that I think about it.

My primary issues with the current introduction is its phraseology, it has little passion and is difficult to parse and comprehend and seems written by committee (all over the place). Though, the current introduction is not as bad as I first thought after reading it a few more times, but I repeat it is difficult to parse, especially for someone with apparently poor or slow reading comprehension (me). Other issues with the current introduction: the word "taint" is better than the word "bias" in my interpretation, everyone has some sort of personal bias, "taint" in this context applies unambiguously to research/results, it's more important to note that research might be tainted (which indicates the research is potentially worthless). I asked why you labeled the above proposed definition the "essentialist view" because I still have no idea what that label means or how it is relevant. Now that I understand your other counter criticisms more I will try to come up with a hopefully better new compromise/superset introduction proposal soon. zen apprentice T 20:19, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Rules or laws

I know that we never seem to get further than the introduction, but here's a thing. We say in the second sentence, "It is based on observable, empirical, measurable evidence, and subject to laws of reasoning." In the citation, Newton uses the work 'rules' rather than 'laws'. I notice that this is normally the case as in Descartes' Rules for the Direction of the Mind, Popper's "rule of thumb". Bacon, despite being a lawyer, calls his New Organon, "true directions concerning the interpretation of nature". I suggest we change the sentence to read "rules of reasoning". --Chris 21:34, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I concur. --Ancheta Wis 21:51, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Succinct intro proposal

The scientific method is a logical, multiple step, and recursive process to expand and improve knowledge using general principles and procedures commonly including the observation of phenomenon, formulation of hypotheses, investigation, experimentation, verification and unification. Specific procedures often vary between different fields of scientific inquiry. Other principles include requiring research to be open to both refinement and independent scrutiny.

Comments welcome. zen apprentice T 01:00, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, guessing or abduction is as much a part of it as logic; see also hypothesis. Observation need not be the first step; a question was the basis for relativity; (What would I see if I were riding on a beam of light? --Einstein). And you didn't mention prediction, which is the logical deduction from the guessing stage. That's one reason for the length of the article; scientific method is like an onion. One person's guess can be another person's starting point, which is the reason for the Heisenberg quote deep in the article. All of that is pretty tough to jam into an introductory paragraph.

I listed the common principles and procedures in sentence form, rather than as a bullet pointed list, to convey precisely that "step" order is variable. The process of hypothesizing creates predictions. A layered onion still can have a succinct introduction that gives a general overview rather than being all over the place. Note: when I use the word succinct I mean clarity not necessarily brevity. zen apprentice T 00:50, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

If you are looking for a quick intro, read the material in the yellow boxes. There are 3 versions of the box in the article. But they are not equivalent; they are like layers of an onion. --Ancheta Wis 03:12, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

The word hypothesis is within the proposed introduction above, the process of hypothesizing creates predictions. Feel free to update the proposal above with anything you consider to be missing. Do you like the current introduction? Do you agree or disagree whether the current introduction is phrased unclearly? zen apprentice T 07:30, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Once you start saying 'A' includes 'B' then you cannot justify disliking the current intro, which includes all of the words in the successive paragraphs in the entire article. And if you admit that truth is layered then the current intro suffices, even in the face of its stylistic deficiencies. The archives show that the proposed intro had its roots in previous versions of Wikipedia's article. "What I cannot create, I do not understand": even Feynman had this urge. That does not justify attempting to nail down the entire article in the intro paragraph. The intro is designed to lead the reader onward. It ought not give the reader a false impression of comprehension or comprehensiveness.

The steps of scientific method are currently our best approach to understanding, and they are rooted in our history, but it has taken the best minds of our civilization to come up with the steps. Most people can only hope to engage in only one or two of the steps at a time. Scientists work in communities and specialize in one or two of the steps themselves; since unusual people like Newton or Galileo showed the breadth and depth of comprehension to be able to engage in all the steps (see the yellow boxes), then it may help to characterize what one or two of them has done, before proposing a succinct intro paragraph. That of course limits the scope of generality of any proposed intro paragraph. --Ancheta Wis 10:18, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

The current introduction is the result of a great deal of thought and discussion by at least seven or eight editors. It takes into account many aspects of this broad subject, including but not limited to such issues as the demarcation problem and use of scientific method by the social sciences. ... Kenosis 15:29, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Responding to everyone above, in my interpretation my proposed new introduction at the top of this section is better than the current introduction but since allegedly "seven" or "eight" user accounts disagree I suppose I will continue to discuss and work toward a larger consensus with more and more people. I would not characterize the current introduction's deficiencies as being merely "stylistic" but instead I interpret them to be fundamental deficiencies. Though I am not saying necessarily throw away the current introduction completely, just that the top proposal is a good first introductory paragraph (there can be more than one introductory paragraph, feel free to add on to it if you think it is incomplete). The way the current intro is written does not lead the reader onward in my interpretation and seems almost as if it was fabricated for the purpose of befuddling readers subtly. Please explain how you think the proposed new top introduction gives readers a "false impression of comprehension of comprehesiveness"? If an introduction is just a tease readers are more likely to keep reading. Note: I added the word "investigation" to the proposal at the top of this section. zen apprentice T 00:44, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, for the moment I'd like to amend my statement so as to make that "allegedly 'six' or 'seven' user accounts", per the immediately above, because one of the "alleged" users might have been a sockpuppet, and an additional two dozen or more might be derivative sockpuppets, but there's no way to WP:VER this at the moment. ... Kenosis 04:45, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Naturalism

John Rennie wrote:

• A central tenet of modern science is methodological naturalism: it seeks to explain the universe purely in terms of observed or testable natural mechanisms.

Is there anyone who has ever sought to generalize science beyond the self-imposed limitation of naturalism? That is, to extend the range of science beyond the physical, material world of nature and to explore the inner realm of thought or the spiritual world (afterlife) spoken of by religions? --Uncle Ed 20:40, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Here is the full quote:

"Creation science" is a contradiction in terms. A central tenet of modern science is methodological naturalism--it seeks to explain the universe purely in terms of observed or testable natural mechanisms. Thus, physics describes the atomic nucleus with specific concepts governing matter and energy, and it tests those descriptions experimentally. Physicists introduce new particles, such as quarks, to flesh out their theories only when data show that the previous descriptions cannot adequately explain observed phenomena. The new particles do not have arbitrary properties, moreover--their definitions are tightly constrained, because the new particles must fit within the existing framework of physics.

In contrast, intelligent-design theorists invoke shadowy entities that conveniently have whatever unconstrained abilities are needed to solve the mystery at hand. Rather than expanding scientific inquiry, such answers shut it down. (How does one disprove the existence of omnipotent intelligences?)

So the quote applies to the creationism movement in the U.S. I'm just trying to put the quote in context.

Thought is very much a scientific endeavor. Due to it's complexity (the major obstacle being a agreed upon definition of thought), most of the work is done in psychology, but the molecular basis is being slowly worked out as well. The most important recent advance is the human/chimp genomes and large scale micro array studies that allow scientists to pinpoint differences in the genomes as the pertain to brain function and development. Be prepared for a lot of scientific research on that topic in the coming decade. Afterlife cannot be investigated using the scientific method.

I also think the phrase "self-imposed limitation of naturalism" is wrong. Nobody, to my knowledge, has found a way to investigate beyond the observable natural phenomena. So it's not a self imposed limitation, but rather a limitation imposed upon science by the reality we live in.

The above quote should definitely be in the article. It gives a nice parameter of what science can and cannot approach. Most importantly, this article should discuss why this principle must be a part of science (the historical, philosophical, and (of course) scientific reasons). --Roland Deschain 01:53, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

2 things

1) One never proves the hypothesis to be true--they fail to disprove it.

2)What about mentioning the null hypothesis. In some circumstances the null hypothesis is tested to prove good research methods/techniques.

intro again

I just hacked away at the intro. We really need to keep this as simple as possible. I have tried to rewrite it in a way that is more crisp and simple. I hope this is OK. Comments welcomed. David D. (Talk) 16:02, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Paragraph three contains the text,

"Any hypothesis that cannot be subjected to a test is not considered to be scientific."

For sure, we need to say something about testability. Testability has been a feature of scientific method, in various guises, since Bacon. I would prefer to avoid the suggestion that it is the determining factor in deciding whether an argument is scientific. If we could be certain of this then we would have a solution to the demarcation problem and I don’t think we have. In any case, it is a tangential philosophical issue and it would be good if we could keep every sentence of the introduction focused on method. Here are a couple of examples how we could do that:

"This method is efficacious to the extent that experimental results are able to unambiguously affirm or refute the hypothesis investigated."

Or perhaps,

"The efficacy of this method is dependent on our ability to unambiguously affirm or refute hypotheses using experiment."

Both of these sentences relate the importance of testability to scientific method without going so far as to define science in terms of testability.

--Chris 22:07, 20 October 2006 (UTC)