Wikipedia:Featured article candidates

For the similar process page for good articles, see Wikipedia:Good article nominations.

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This star, with one point broken, indicates that an article is a candidate on this page. Here, we determine which articles are to be featured articles (FAs). FAs exemplify Wikipedia's very best work and satisfy the FA criteria. All editors are welcome to review nominations; please see the review FAQ. Before nominating an article, nominators may wish to receive feedback by listing it at Peer review and adding the review to the FAC peer review sidebar. Editors considering their first nomination, and any subsequent nomination before their first FA promotion, are strongly advised to seek the involvement of a mentor, to assist in the preparation and processing of the nomination. Nominators must be sufficiently familiar with the subject matter and sources to deal with objections during the featured article candidates (FAC) process. Nominators who are not significant contributors to the article should consult regular editors of the article before nominating it. Nominators are expected to respond positively to constructive criticism and to make efforts to address objections promptly. An article should not be on Featured article candidates and Peer review or Good article nominations at the same time. The FAC coordinators—Ian Rose, Gog the Mild, David Fuchs and FrB.TG—determine the timing of the process for each nomination. For a nomination to be promoted to FA status, consensus must be reached that it meets the criteria. Consensus is built among reviewers and nominators; the coordinators determine whether there is consensus. A nomination will be removed from the list and archived if, in the judgment of the coordinators: actionable objections have not been resolved; consensus for promotion has not been reached; insufficient information has been provided by reviewers to judge whether the criteria have been met; or a nomination is unprepared. It is assumed that all nominations have good qualities; this is why the main thrust of the process is to generate and resolve critical comments in relation to the criteria, and why such resolution is given considerably more weight than declarations of support. Do not use graphics or complex templates on FAC nomination pages. Graphics such as  Done and  Not done slow down the page load time, and complex templates can lead to errors in the FAC archives. For technical reasons, templates that are acceptable are {{collapse top}} and {{collapse bottom}}, used to hide offtopic discussions, and templates such as {{green}} that apply colours to text and are used to highlight examples without altering fonts. Other templates such as {{done}}, {{not done}}, {{tq}}, {{tq2}}, and {{xt}}, may be removed. An editor is allowed to be the sole nominator of only one article at a time, but two nominations are allowed if the editor is a co-nominator on at least one of them. If a nomination is archived, the nominator(s) should take adequate time to work on resolving issues before re-nominating. None of the nominators may nominate or co-nominate any article for two weeks unless given leave to do so by a coordinator; if such an article is nominated without asking for leave, a coordinator will decide whether to remove it. A coordinator may exempt from this restriction an archived nomination that attracted no (or minimal) feedback. Nominations in urgent need of review are listed here. To contact the FAC coordinators, please leave a message on the FAC talk page, or use the {{@FAC}} notification template elsewhere. A bot will update the article talk page after the article is promoted or the nomination archived; the delay in bot processing can range from minutes to several days, and the {{FAC}} template should remain on the talk page until the bot updates {{Article history}}. Table of Contents – This page:

Featured content: Featured articles ← Featured lists Featured pictures Featured topics Featured article candidates (FAC) Featured article criteria Featured article log Featured article statistics Featured article review (FAR) Former featured articles Unreviewed featured articles/2020 Today's featured article (TFA): This month's queue About Today's featured article Recent TFAs and statistics Current TFA requests Potential TFA requests TFA oddities Most viewed TFAs Featured articles yet to appear as TFA Script to track TFA recent changes Featured article tools: Mentoring for FAC Nominators of featured articles promoted Recent changes to featured articles Random featured article

Nominating How to nominate an article Nomination procedure Before nominating an article, ensure that it meets all of the FA criteria and that peer reviews are closed and archived. Place {{subst:FAC}} at the top of the talk page of the nominated article and save the page. From the FAC template, click on the red "initiate the nomination" link or the blue "leave comments" link. You will see pre-loaded information; leave that text. If you are unsure how to complete a nomination, please post to the FAC talk page for assistance. Below the preloaded title, complete the nomination page, sign with ~~~~, and save the page. Copy this text: {{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/name of nominated article/archiveNumber}} (substituting Number), and edit this page (i.e., the page you are reading at the moment), pasting the template at the top of the list of candidates. Replace "name of ..." with the name of your nomination. This will transclude the nomination into this page. In the event that the title of the nomination page differs from this format, use the page's title instead. Commenting, etc Commenting, supporting and opposing Supporting and opposing To respond to a nomination, click the "Edit" link to the right of the article nomination (not the "Edit this page" link for the whole FAC page). All editors are welcome to review nominations; see the review FAQ for an overview of the review process. To support a nomination, write *'''Support''', followed by your reason(s), which should be based on a full reading of the text. If you have been a significant contributor to the article before its nomination, please indicate this. A reviewer who specializes in certain areas of the FA criteria should indicate whether the support is applicable to all of the criteria. To oppose a nomination, write *'''Object''' or *'''Oppose''', followed by your reason(s). Each objection must provide a specific rationale that can be addressed. If nothing can be done in principle to address the objection, a coordinator may disregard it. References on style and grammar do not always agree; if a contributor cites support for a certain style in a standard reference work or other authoritative source, reviewers should consider accepting it. Reviewers who object are strongly encouraged to return after a few days to check whether their objection has been addressed. To withdraw the objection, strike it out (with <s> ... </s>) rather than removing it. Alternatively, reviewers may transfer lengthy, resolved commentary to the FAC archive talk page, leaving a link in a note on the FAC archive. To provide constructive input on a nomination without specifically supporting or objecting, write *'''Comment''' followed by your advice. For ease of editing, a reviewer who enters lengthy commentary may create a neutral fourth-level subsection, named either ==== Review by EditorX ==== or ==== Comments by EditorX ==== (do not use third-level or higher section headers). Please do not create subsections for short statements of support or opposition—for these a simple *'''Support''',*'''Oppose''', or *'''Comment''' followed by your statement of opinion, is sufficient. Please do not use a semicolon to bold a subheading; this creates accessibility problems. Specifically, a semi-colon creates an HTML description list with a description term list item. As a result, assistive technology is unable to identify the text in question as a heading and thus provide navigation to it, and screen readers will make extra list start/item/end announcements. If a nominator feels that an Oppose has been addressed, they should say so, either after the reviewer's signature, or by interspersing their responses in the list provided by the reviewer. Per talk page guidelines, nominators should not cap, alter, strike, or add graphics to comments from other editors. If a nominator finds that an opposing reviewer is not returning to the nomination page to revisit improvements, this should be noted on the nomination page, with a diff to the reviewer's talk page showing the request to reconsider.

Add new nominations on top, one section per nomination.

Nominated articles

Nuclear reactor

Oh, why not? I've looked this over, and it seems to be both complete and NPOV. -Litefantastic 15:51, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Object. Although Chernobyl and Three Mile island are briefly mentioned and there is some discussion of environmental safety, the topic of catastrophic failure is not given much attention, or am I missing something? Kosebamse 18:55, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Object. No sources, only external links. [[User:Neutrality|Neutrality (hopefully!)]] 21:25, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)
• Object. There's easily room for 5-10 images here. Fredrik | talk 16:55, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Japan

A great example of the country template. +sj+ 06:38, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Object. This looks quite good, but a few remarks. 1) The lead section is insufficient, and should present a summary of the article. 2) There are some differences here with the country template. While that is not (necessarily) a problem, I would like to know why this is, since conformation with WikiProjects is one of the "requirements" mentioned at Wikipedia:What is a featured article. In particular, why is the "Prefectures and regions" (together with the disputes subsection) not listed under a level 2-heading? Also, the link to the appropriate subarticle is missing. Also, several of the other sections have been put under "Society". 3) There are no references, only further reading and external links. Please add references (which may come from the aforementioned). In addition, the style of the further reading is not as described in Wikipedia:Cite your sources, and the external links section is messy; some are barely (if at all) relevant to the article (e.g. "stock market crash", "male love in Japan"), the Wikitravel link appears twice, etc. Please review those. Jeronimo 07:16, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Removed second link to Wikitravel. Fg2 11:15, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)

• Object. history section 4 times the desired length. Other sections need some more minor trimming to confirm to summary style conventions. --Jiang 07:46, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Object for now. Links need to be cleaned up and references need to be given. I don't mind a long history section, since Japan has a long history, but maybe you can do some trimming if there's a history of-article. Also, I would like to see the Geography and Society sections moved up to just after History. They seem far more important than the politics section. [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm|^(talk)]] 11:33, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)
  • we should keep the wikipedia:wikiProject Countries standard.--Jiang 17:53, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Object. The sources all need ISBN numbers and need to be properly formatted. [[User:Neutrality|Neutrality (hopefully!)]] 21:23, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)
• Object. Promising article, but needs some standardising. As Jeronimo and Neutrality point out, the "Further reading" list sure does need formatting, and more urgently raises the question of what the actual sources for the article are (further reading surely implies that the listed books specifically were not mined for the article?). However, books listed don't need ISBN's, where does that come from? See Wikipedia:Cite sources: "The ISBN (which is wikified automatically) is optional." See also sample entries in Wikipedia:Guide to layout. See also Wikipedia:ISBN, not a wholehearted recommendation by any means.--[[User:Bishonen|Bish (Bosh)]] 01:59, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • further reading surely implies that the listed books specifically were not mined for the article? No, it implies that the reader has not read the books, not that the writer hasn't. Mark¹ 04:36, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • Sorry, but I disagree. References is for information gathered for the article. Further reading is for information not in the article that might interest the reader. - Ta bu shi da yu 09:09, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
      • Exactly, and this is a distinction that needs to be made. Anyone who wants to fact-check an article needs to know which references were actually used. Further reading is for those who want to learn more. Filiocht 09:19, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)
        • No. Neither references nor further reading are information: they are sources of information. A reference is a source which has been used in writing the article. If there is no references section, then the references are probably somewhere in the further reading section (they are further reading because not all the information in that source will have been incorporated in the article). (Having said that, there should be a references section). Mark¹ 09:23, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
          • Yes, because a list of references is information about how the article was made, and for readers who know the area, they can even indicate any underlying biases. Filiocht 09:27, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)

French language

A solid, complete example of the language template. +sj+ 06:38, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Needs a picture. -Litefantastic 15:53, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • map of Francophone countries? Eiffel Tower? Frenchman in stripey shirt with onions round neck? (maybe not the last) Dunc|☺ 17:00, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

gonna have to go for map of francophone countries --Larsie 23:11, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Noel Gallagher

Sorry to stick this up again but I've made extencive changes and additions, and am very proud it. I cannot see how to improve it further and would really appreciate hints. User:Vague Rant did a lot of helpful work on it too.--Crestville 00:50, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Object for now. The opening line is confusing: Should it not read "Noel Thomas David Gallagher (born May 29, 1967) ..."? Or has he formally changed his name? Dbiv 12:59, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

  No name change. Fixed -- GWO

• Object for now: a lot of repetition in the writing. For example, the name Noel appears seven times in the first paragraph of the biography section alone. Filiocht 15:15, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)

Flag of the Republic of China

Good article. Very informative. [[User:Neutrality|Neutrality (hopefully!)]] 00:01, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)

• References, please. Jeronimo 07:07, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • addressed. --Jiang 20:16, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Object. I feel that the prose in this article is not up to snuff. The lead section, particularly, is not terribly clear. The material is interesting, but I don't think this quite meets the criteria of "brilliant prose" quite yet. --Eudyptes 23:32, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support. (I've just tweaked the text a little.) -- ALoan (Talk) 13:51, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • you sure? i don't see an edit by you. --Jiang 03:57, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Lesch-Nyhan syndrome

self nomination i've been writing this article for a few days now and hope its up to par, so tell me what you guys think. ya i know but those are the best images i could find in wikipedia. --Larsie 23:54, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Neutral just now, but mulling it over. One thing that needs to be clarified is the 380,000 live births. That's in what population? A percentage would be more rational, there. Otherwise, the article is exceptionally medical (perhaps technical). While I think that is admirable, I do think that a bit of lay speech is necessary in the lead to set a general expression of the thing before the detailed and medical discussion goes forward. Including differentials and genetic mechanism and treatment is crucial in a medical text, but it's a bit higher order than usual on Wikipedia. I don't dislike or diagree with it, but I do think it should be set up by something more accessible at first. Geogre 05:30, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I see now that I missed the ratio because it mixed "one" with "380,000." I made that "1:380,000" to prevent anyone else missing it with eyes as tired as mine were. Geogre 15:26, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Support if a lay lead is introduced at the head to set forth the disease in plain language before the launch into the scientific description. I have no objections to the way the article is written in its body, but I do think we owe readers a courtesy of common language first, especially in the lead. Geogre 15:26, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Also, I feel that the lead is now sufficiently user-friendly. After a lead that gives an overview of the subject, I personally think that precision and technical terminology are acceptable, so I don't agree with trying to explain every specialist term in the article per se. Summary sentences in "plain English" at the heads of each technical section could benefit, but I do not feel that we would be demanding that a high math article or computer science article explain each term before use, so neither should we here. Geogre 00:52, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Also neutral, as I mentioned to Larsie I think the article needs a more relevant picture. I also agree that it needs some more explanation for us everyday people, but not at the expense of preciseness. And I do want to point out that Larsie has made a tremendous effort here, and has also gone and written good articles for some of the linked terms. Rhobite 05:44, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)
  • Still neutral, I'm sorry, it needs a relevant picture. Genes and RNA stuff are good, but at least the lead picture should be specific to this syndrome. Rhobite 02:13, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)

• Object. This article is undoubtedly comprehensive (congratulations Larsie). However I have concerns about its relevance to the wider audience. LNS is a rare disease. Estimates vary between 1 in 100,000 and 1 in 1,000,000 live births. In the scheme of genetic diseases, this is rare. The most frequent X-linked diseases (excluding colour-blindness) with incidence per 1,000 live births are: -

Fragile X	0.5
Duchenne muscular dystrophy	0.3
X-linked ichthyosis	0.2
Haemophilia A	0.1
Becker muscular dystrophy	0.05
Haemophilia B	0.03

Larsie's estimate is far below this, at only 0.0026. Is there a precedent for such rare diseases to be accepted as featured articles in Wikipedia? Axl 13:45, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Why should it matter if it does not affect a large part of the populus? one would think that it affects more lives in this world than an exploding whale, don't you think? come on now. --Larsie 16:17, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Axl's objection is, as they say, not actionable. Rhobite 20:04, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)
  • Axl's objection is not actionable and is therefore invalid. [[User:Neutrality|Neutrality (hopefully!)]] 21:26, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)

• Support. If it is OK to have the article (not a list) on Wikipedia, then it is a potential candidate. I found it well structured and clear, if technical. Made a couple of minor format edits. Filiocht 14:49, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)
• Neutral. Getting much better. I agree with JFW's comments below. Too much unexplained medical jargon for an audience where 99.9% plus will not have the requisite background. Don't remove any detail, just explain any term most people are not likely to understand. Especially in the intro, then the article can slowly descend into the detail that most people would not understand without training. Finally this was listed on Peer review 24 hrs before being listed here. I reallize you worked a lot on it, but there are comments that were not entirely addressed both there and on your talk page when you listed this here. This listing was a little premature considering that. There are many many topics in this that do have Wikipedia articles that should be linked to. I will try to cover that one. By the way, how common the disease is has no bearing on whether it is a great article and thus if it can be featured. - Taxman 16:05, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)

• if i can get some examples of which parts of the article are hard to comprehend i'd be more than happy to re-work them, as i understand the subject at hand it is hard for me to differ what would not be understandable to others. --Larsie 16:51, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I've replaced "hypotonia" with "abnormally decreased muscle tone (hypotonia)". Other examples of terms needing explanation are: "extrapyramidal", "pyramidal", "dystonia", "choreoathetosis", "opisthotonus", "hyperreflexia" "extensor plantar", "hyperuricemia", "nephrolithiasis", "hematuria" to name a few. Paul August 17:25, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)

all these terms are explained in the articles that they link to to exdplain them all would expand the aricle to the point in which it would be to exhaustive to read. --Larsie 17:28, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Well "pyramidal" and "extensor plantar" aren't linked ["plantar reflexes" is now linked Paul August 03:07, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)], and the first use of "extrapyramidal" wasn't linked (I've linked it now). Also, consider that articles should stand alone without links so, for example, printed versions make sense. It is better, where possible to add short definitions, similar to my edit above, or your "uric acid crystals or calculi". Other examples: "hyperreflexia" could be replaced by "overactive reflexes (hyperreflexia)" and "hematuria" with "blood in the urine (hematuria)", to name just two. [These two have now been addressed. Paul August 19:24, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)] Paul August 18:28, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)

Well a good lead section (please read) needs to be accessible to those that have not read every one of those articles. Yes, it is difficult for some subjects, but it can be done. It may involve carefully considering what information is truly important enough for inclusion in the intro. But yes, all of those terms either need to be explained in the intro where they are used or not be used in the intro. See black hole for an example of a good intro on a potentially difficult subject. Only the important topics are covered, and it is accessible to most people. I think you may just be trying to tell too much about the subject in the intro, that instead should be included in the detailed subsetions. - Taxman 18:08, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)

• alright so i re-worked the intro and added a paragraph 'description' i don't know if it is what you were looking for or not what do you think? --Larsie 18:34, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Well i think i'm done i re-worked what was requested and added a bunch of applicable images i hope you'll be pleased have a look. Lesch-Nyhan syndrome --Larsie 20:11, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Intro is much better but I worked on it a small bit, so caveat emptor. The rest of the article still could use some explaining of the various medical terms inline as explained in other comments above. Finally the last sentence in the inheritance section refers to less severe versions of the mutation, but I couldn't see anywhere else in the article this was covered. How much does it vary? That sentence needs to be expanded where it is and that idea should be covered wherever in the article is appropriate. Taxman

[I took the liberty of signing the above for Taxman ;-) Paul August 02:22, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)]

I think this version of the intro, written by user:Jfdwolff but reverted by user:Larsie is better:

Lesch-Nyhan syndrome or LNS is a severe medical condition caused by a genetic defect that affects mainly males. Patients have severe mental and physical symptoms throughout life, experiencing severe arthritis, gout, self-mutilation, as well as difficulty in achieving normal function. LNS was first described in 1964 by Dr. Michael Lesch and Dr. William Nyhan. The disease is due to a mutation located on the X chromosome. It is a rare disease, affecting 1:380,000 live births. No cure is available, and continuous follow-up and symptom control is required.

Paul August 02:11, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)

Ok, with Larsie's agreement (I think) I've changed the intro back to Jfdwolff's version above - plus I've reincorporated some of Neutrality's edits and added a tweak of my own. Paul August 04:18, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)

• Comment: Can the caption on the first image say if these are LNS defective X-chromosomes with defects pointed to by the blue arrow or not? Paul August 03:16, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)

The image has now been removed. Paul August 15:36, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)

• Comment: This is an interesting topic which may be featured due to its academic interest, not because of its incidence. At the same time, it has to conform to lay readability and scientific integrity at the same time - a tall order indeed. I have reorganised the article to conform to other medical articles under the Wikiproject "Clinical medicine", and made some factual changes. I would recommend some academic references - webpages are poor reflectors of recent scientific knowledge. I will search Pubmed for a recent quality review article and post its conclusions on Talk:Lesch-Nyhan syndrome before inclusion. Actually, the webpages may also provide some references. JFW | T@lk 14:43, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Question: The following sentence from the "Differential diagnosis" section has a problem: Biting the fingers and lips is a definive feature of Lesch-Nyhan syndrome. I don't think "definive" is a word and "definitive" seems too strong. Is "defining" what is wanted here? Paul August 16:00, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)

Visit of King George IV to Scotland

Very well written and a fascinating subject. Kosebamse 23:16, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Support. Kudos for an excellent article on an obscure topic. The only (very minor) gripe I have is that the "Outcome" section could perhaps do with a reword. Ambi 07:21, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Object for now. The lead needs some work: in what sense did the visit "divert the King from diplomatic intrigue in Vienna"? Scotland's national identity is not "kilted". And some of the writing is not great: He was obese and was widely unpopular with many offended by his treatment of his wife, and had been struggling to manipulate the government which was seen as a corrupt oligarchy by radicals who went as far as civil war following the revolutions which shook America and France tries to fit in a little too much information. Mark¹ 07:47, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

ß

The entire section discussing the article in question was deleted, surely accidentally, in a process documented at Talk:ß. Should the previous participants be notified that it has been resurrected? --Jerzy(t) 19:33, 2004 Nov 9 (UTC) [sig belated by several minutes]

• Well, I have some sympathy since I stet inadvertantly deleted discussions about once a week (cat earlier today, for example), but putting it back 5 months later is a bit steep! How about treating this as a new nomination? Have the issues below been addressed? -- ALoan (Talk) 20:30, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

ß (Contested -- Jun 28)

This is another very interesting and informative one. User:Cow 01:39, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

• Neutral. I've left some questions on the talk page. Markalexander100 03:06, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)
• The writing isn't clear enough IMO. Needs rewriting with particular attention to clarity. (I'd have a go myself, but I'm busy working on objections to X Window System ;-) - David Gerard 12:57, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)
• The part of the lead section telling the difference between β and ß is kind of silly; it doesn't need to explain it in that much detail, at least not in the opening paragraphs. [[User:Sverdrup|✏ SverdrupSverdrup]] 21:39, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)
• Object. 1) ""ß" should not be confused with ... beta ("β"), which it closely resembles,...Indeed the resemblance is not close enough to enable substitution of the one with the other in typeset material without the result looking extremely unprofessional." -- can we express this another way? It seems a little too coercive / didactic in tone to me. 2) Can we move the whole "comparison with Beta" thing into its own section? 3) "this is considered typographically wrong." -- can we use a more informative word than "wrong"? "Incorrect in typography"? -- Matt 23:27, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)
• Other than the "typographically wrong" bit, which I think is a fair criticism, I support. I've just moved the "comparison with Beta" chunk into a new section "ß and β", between usage and miscellaneous, where I think it fits relatively well (though I sha'n't be offended if people disagree and move it back or elsewhere). -- OwenBlacker 15:45, Jun 30, 2004 (UTC)

New discussion

• Object. See also: Wikipedia:What is a featured article. 1) No lead section. See Wikipedia:Lead section. 2) No references. See Wikipedia:Cite your sources. Jeronimo 19:46, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • To clarify: the lead section needs to summarize the article. It does not mention enough about the origin nor the usage in the lead section. Come to think of it, the origin doesn't tell anything about the history of the letter. When was it first used? It also briefly mentions something about the letter in other languages, but only very briefly. This gap needs to be filled. As for the references: some are mentioned in the text, but these be (re)mentioned in a separate section at the bottom with full information (title, authors, publisher, ISBN, all where applicable). Jeronimo 07:02, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• I disagree. The pre-TOC paragraph reads like a lead section to me and there are plenty of articles without references (apart from anything else, an article about a letter of the alphabet may well mainly be written from un-cite-able personal knowledge). I supported it before and I support it now; though it's more arguably a self-support than it was then. — OwenBlacker 00:24, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)
  • Duden would be an obvious reference. Mark¹ 00:33, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • The fact that there are other articles without references doesn't clear this one; it is requirement for FA's. And I certainly think there are references on this subject, so they should be used. Jeronimo 07:02, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Falklands War

Article has improved much since its last nomination in September. Well written. =) --Andylkl 08:26, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Object. See also Wikipedia:What is a featured article for some of my objections. 1) Insufficient lead section. See Wikipedia:Lead section. 2) No reference section. Some are mentioned in the article, but there should be a section listing all used sources, and possibly further reading and external links. See Wikipedia:Cite your sources 3) The image of Galtieri is uncredited (and had a non-standard caption, fixed now) 4) There is non-standard use of boldface and italic characters in the article. Literal quotes should be in normal font, but with "-quotes. Titles of books should be in italic, not boldface. See WP:MOS. 5) Sectioning should improve. Some sections have only a single paragraph ("Failed diplomacy", "Life under the occupation") while "Invasion" is way too long and should be split up, or should be given subsections (such as done with "War"). 6) I fail to understand why the "Invasion" doesn't qualify as "War". 7) Although there is an analysis section (the "Military" section is very messy), I miss an "aftermath" discussion, in which the post-war developments are discussed. 8) I would like to see some more information from the Argentine point of view. We get the reactions in the British newspapers, but what happened in Argentina? There should be more balance in the article regarding this. Jeronimo 19:41, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Oppose. as Jeronomo. The details of the actual invasion can be detailed on a "sub article". Also, aftermath. Let's get the POV right too. Dunc|☺ 16:58, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Remembrance Day

• A usefully topical article (the day itself is in two days' time) which seems pretty thorough and admirably concise. -- ChrisO 00:33, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Object - topical and concise alright, timely too; but hardly comprehensive. What about practices in South Africa, Australia and New Zealand? (All are mentioned as observing Remembrance Day but then not mentioned again.) What about other countries? France? Germany? The text from Remembrance Sunday could usefully be included here instead and Remembrance Sunday turned into a redirect. Where are the references? Why an inline external link to the Royal British Legion? Are there no other relevant pages externally or in Wikipedia. Need I go on... -- ALoan (Talk) 00:46, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Object. In addition to being not comprehensive, there are various other issues mentioned in Wikipedia:What is a featured article not applicable to this article. E.g.: lead section, headings, references. Jeronimo 19:48, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Cat

To my ignorant eyes, this looks like an excellent, thorough article. —No-One Jones ^(m) 00:20, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Object. The stuff about the black death being caused by a lack of cats is a myth. Comment. The pictures are fine photos of cats, but they don't illustrate the article. They are just pictures of cats, except the one illustrating a breed named in the article. Gdr 00:42, 2004 Nov 8 (UTC)
  • What exactly is the nature of the myth, and where is it debunked? A cursory search indicates that at least in some regions, cats were killed for superstitious reasons, e.g. [1].--Eloquence*
• Object. the entire section on feral cats appears to me to be full of false information. Feral cats do thrive in the wild, are quite adaptable and readily find food sources (at least in Australia). It is either Americentric, or totally false.--ZayZayEM 09:03, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Object: the lead is... odd. I don't think that baby rats and obscure sayings are the most important subjects to mention there. Markalexander100 09:34, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Object. All of the above and no refs section. Filiocht 09:37, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
• Object, not featured-quality. Needs to be at least twice the current size, with references. [[User:Neutrality|Neutrality (hopefully!)]] 17:53, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
• Object: "The only way to distinguish them is by looking at the processus hamatus of the feline scapula, which should have a processus suprahamatus" what does that mean? At least link it to relevant pages.. Mozzerati 23:47, 2004 Nov 8 (UTC)
• Object: 1) Just as a comment, this should be moved to Domestic Cat in my opinion (which redirects to this article already) and Cat become a disambiguation page. This isn't why I'm objecting, however. 2) No references quoted 3) The part about the black death needs to be expanded. I'd like to see some figures on what effect killing cats had on increasing the number of plague victims. It sounds a bit suspect to me. 4) Can we have a bit more about Cats and ancient Egypt? They were reverred as Gods there (and as any cat owner knows, they've never forgotten this) so this section deserves more than a paragraph). 5) Little, or no mention of famous cats (eg. Garfield, Puss in Boots) aside from a link. Can we go into some details on this? 6) Slight agreement with ZayZayEM, feral cats DO thrive on their own but how well depends on the environment. The local strays in my neighbourhood do fine but that's because there's plenty of humans around to steal food from. This section needs to be fixed. Zerbey 21:28, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Comment: "Cats and the Black Death". Is this true? Seems a bit simplicitic to say this was the only cause of the black death. Also, the Black Death spread throughout the world, didn't it? Wasn't just isolated to the "religious" areas of Europe... - Ta bu shi da yu 23:07, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Economy of the Republic of Ireland

Self-nomination. I've expanded this article significantly over the last few weeks. It covers all sectors of the Irish economy, taxation, wealth distribution, the relevent statistics, economic ties etc. CGorman 20:03, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Support - robust article and gives insight into Ireland, an alternative history and modern Ireland - also recommend that article should (perhaps) incorporate larger historic section and definitely use less abbreviations (can be quite abstract) and more paragraphing. Djegan 21:23, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Neutral for the moment - the "Economic ties"/USA section needs a considerable update as it still refers to the Clinton administration in the current and future tenses (someone taking bets for 2008?!). Most of the figures in that section refer to 1998 and 1999, something more recent would be a good idea. There's also quite a lot of US spellings there, which isn't appropriate as we should be using Hiberno-English. -- Arwel 00:51, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC) P.S. - I forgot, there's also a tendency to refer to the whole island as "the country", which isn't exactly NPOV. Looks OK now. Support. -- Arwel 23:27, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • The US economic ties section has been updated to reflect current circumstances. CGorman 21:43, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support as long as Economic ties is updated thoughZayZayEM 08:50, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • See above. CGorman 21:43, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support on same condition. Filiocht 08:55, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
  • See above. CGorman 21:43, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Will support after sources are formatted in MLA style. [[User:Neutrality|Neutrality (hopefully!)]] 17:54, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
  • Uh, last I checked, the manual of style says that any referencing style is acceptable. →Raul654 17:59, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
    • Agreed. but they should at least have the publisher, author, and year for every book reference listed. Also, the 'See also' and 'External links' are included under the 'Reference' section. They should not be unless they were used as actual references for this article. If other wikipedia articles were used as references, my feeling is that the references for those articles should be listed instead of listing the wikipedia article as a reference. But maybe that is just me. Finally the external links are not formatted correctly as references as noted in Wikipedia:Cite sources. I completed the suggestion in my foregoing comment - Taxman 19:06, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
• Support, looks good to me. Especially the name fix. Object, I seem to be a one man mission on this, but please fix the one sentence paragraphs :). This article lists the growth differently than in Celtic Tiger, which is right? Great pictures, otherwise looks good and I would support with those fixes. - Taxman 19:06, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
  • I have merged or lenghted some of the shorter paragraphs were appropiate. As for the growth figures - the Economy of Ireland article mentions 10%, but clearly states that this is over the five year period 1995-2000, the Celtic Tiger article mentions 5%-6%, this is for the longer period - of 1990-2004. Have I satisfied your complaint? CGorman 21:58, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Object. Certainly not bad, but I have some issues: 1) The article is called "Economy of Ireland", but appears to be only about the Republic of Ireland. This should be corrected (either the title should change or the contents should reflect it is also about Northern Ireland). 2) The history has almost nothing on the early history. Everyting up to 1848 is covered in a single sentence, and 3/4 of the section is about the 20th century or later. This trend is noticeable troughout the entire article; the present and recent past are getting most of the attention. I understand this is the period for which most information is available, but a better overview is really needed for an encyclopedia. In addition, this makes the article read rather "dated" at times: "In 1999, trade between Ireland and the United States was worth around $18.5 billion, a 24% increase over 1998." looks like the last information on this is already 5 years old.3) Some additional figures for the history section (or elsewhere) to compare would also be nice. I can think of graphs or tables with the GPD or inflation (or other indicators) every so many years (10, 20). 4) "Recent economic circumstances" should be merged with the history. 2000-2004 is as much part of history as all years before. 5) I don't think there is a reason to keep all of the information that is left over from the CIA book. Some of this information is really not very useful (such as the historic exchange rates in US$), others are duplicates of the information in the table. The rest could probably be integrated with that table as well (I like the table). Jeronimo 19:33, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • I've made a considerable stab at your wish list... hopefully I've satisfied you! 1) Excellent suggestion, the page has been moved to Economy of the Republic of Ireland - information for Northern Ireland is in the UK article (or should be!). 2) The history section has been expanded to include the early economic history of Ireland and old 1998/1997 figures in the article have been replaced with the most recent available - you cited the US section in particular - i've added a link after the figures to allow them to be easily and accuratly updated in the future. 3) I cannot seem to find any historical GDP figures - besides I think the articles informative enough without needing such a graph 4) Recent economic circumstances is now part of the history section - which has itself been devided up into periods. 5) On this I would disagree with you - the historic exchange figures are usful in telling how stable the economy has been in the past, the other figures such as gold reserve, electricity production etc., all are relevent to the countries economy, as for the table, im glad you like it (i've done the same to the USA and UK articles in the hope that it will become a standard) but I fear that adding all CIA figures would make it too long/confusing - and anyways I think for example natural gas reserves are better suited to the resources section than the table. CGorman 22:40, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • The Republic of Ireland did not exist prior to 1922. The lacking pre-20th century content has been moved to Economy of Ireland. zoney ♣ talk 11:58, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
      • See discussion on page title and content at Talk:Economy of the Republic of Ireland. See also Talk:Economy of Ireland.zoney ♣ talk 13:19, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• This looks pretty OK now. I'm not totally in agreement regarding issues 3) and 5), but they are not sufficent to keep objecting: support. Jeronimo 10:45, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• question why has Ireland got the fastest growing economy in Europe? answer: because its capital's always Dublin. Anyway, no vote. Dunc|☺ 21:26, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • ???? I don't get you - joke or sarcastic comment? CGorman 22:46, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • If you have to explain a joke. It's a pun of the words doubling and Dublin, and a play on the meaning of the word capital in a country's capital and capital (economics). Honestly... Dunc|☺ 23:07, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
      • How could i've missed that! I was having quite a bad day yesterday - not in the mood for jokes and all the objections were bugging me... CGorman 19:25, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Comment: I have some concerns about the time dependent nature of this article. Should an article like this be dated? Do we expect it be updated continuously? Will it still make sense 10 years from now? Paul August 23:09, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)
  • Yes this article contains a lot of data that is time changeable and in need of regular updating - but so too does Olympic Games. I have provided plenty of sources to allow figures to be easily updated - the majority of which come from the excellent CIA world factbook. Anyways how can you write an article about the economy of a country without talking about recent growth, economic size, labour force etc.? The nature of the article requires these figures - besides as wikipedia continues to grow, there will always be someone around to update things. CGorman 22:46, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

If you havan't already, you might want to take a look at: Avoid statements that will date quickly. Paul August 23:09, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)

Here's the introductory economic paragraph from the CIA factbook:

Ireland is a small, modern, trade-dependent economy with growth averaging a robust 8% in 1995-2002. The global slowdown, especially in the information technology sector, pressed growth down to 2.1% in 2003. Agriculture, once the most important sector, is now dwarfed by industry and services. Industry accounts for 46% of GDP and about 80% of exports and employs 28% of the labor force. Although exports remain the primary engine for Ireland's growth, the economy has also benefited from a rise in consumer spending, construction, and business investment. Per capita GDP is 10% above that of the four big European economies. Over the past decade, the Irish Government has implemented a series of national economic programs designed to curb inflation, reduce government spending, increase labor force skills, and promote foreign investment. Ireland joined in launching the euro currency system in January 1999 along with 10 other EU nations.

This looks like a revised version of our intro (or rather our intro looks like a previous version of CIA's entry), should our intro be changed to reflect this more recent info? By the way, I assume that the CIA factbook being a US government document is not copyright protected, but are there other issues (plagiarism?) with using its text verbatim? Paul August 13:11, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)

William N. Page

This is a self-nomination. I have been working on research on Col. Page for several years. This remarkable man was cofounder of the Virginian Railway. While Col Page's partner, millionaire industrialist Henry Huttleston Rogers, has received most of the published credit for building the VGN over the years, many of us have come to realize that Col. Page's role was a crucial portion of their partnership. It is a pleasure to record add this man's story (and that of the building of the Virginian Railway) to Wikipedia.

The information used in the article has been reviewed for accuracy and improvements by members of Virginian Railway (VGN) Enthusiasts yahoo group, which has over 400 members and includes authors and historians. I got a lot of help on content, but I am still learning how to write for Wikipedia, and appreciate suggestions and/or edits by others, and will try to respond to objections. Vaoverland

• Object for now, although I would add that the article is generally impressive and I would like to see it featured. Some obvious problems: inadequate lead section; no references section; only the first word and proper nouns in headings should be capitalized. Markalexander100 03:45, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Lead section has been enhanced, references section added, and improper capitalizations in headings corrected User:Vaoverland

• Support. This really does look impressive and it's well written. The objections above seem to have been addressed, the references section is truly impressive now! One comment, I'm unfamiliar with the history, but there seems to be a lot of adjectives used in headings and text, are these generally NPOV?
• Support - very impressive - ZayZayEM 08:42, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Regarding neutral point of view, I may need help or suggestions in that area if y'all think it is biased. I know that Wikipedia articles are used by teachers as a basis for school projects. When composing, I visualize school children of middle school or high school age, and I try to keep it factual and interesting to read. It is an exciting and true story, and I would like the reader to be able to relate to some of the emotions the people involved experienced, if that is appropraite in the encyclopedia setting. However, I may have overloaded it with adjectives in my enthusiasm. I'm open to help or suggestions to make it a better article for Wikipedia. That is more important to me than the need to change anything from the way I have done it. In other words, please HELP if you can make it better, or guide me in doing so. Thanks. user: vaoverland

• Support.Close, but I think it has too many duplicate links, IE Henry H. Rogers is linked 19 times (even after I removed a few while correcting spelling errors[2] [it's not as different as it looks--apparently removing blank lines sometimes confuses Wikipedia's diff feature]), and up to 3 times in a single paragraph. Seems like once per section, at most, would be better. Niteowlneils 22:57, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC) Niteowlneils 15:25, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Since they are not being voted on, this is NOT an "oppose" issue, but ideally some of the articles it links to, and the way they are linked could be tidier. I cleaned up Virginian Railway a bit, but, for example, Chesapeake & Ohio has a 'missing image' message, and many links are to redirect pages (eg City, ST, instead of City, State), and at least some are to disambiguation pages (EG New River). I'll try to work on some of these issues myself, but given my short attention span, I'm not likely to do them all. I've looked at them all and tweaked the ones I had issues with, except I didn't look at any city/county/state page as they are very rarely problematic. I noticed you've worked more on some, as well. Niteowlneils 04:10, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

That said, I think Wikipedia is MUCH better served by people like you that contribute a smaller number of very high quality articles, rather than the recent trend towards contributing dozens, or even hundreds, of 6-10 word articles. Niteowlneils 23:36, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I have gone back through the article and removed many of the duplicate links, especially those to Henry H. Rogers. I have added a little more information, as my research on Col. Page is ongoing, aided by members of the Virginian Railway Enthusiasts Yahoo group. At the same time, I have been trying to make improvements to some of the linked items, such as Jamestown Exposition, Sewell's Point, Battle of Hampton Roads, and the other railroads. I am not familar with some of the wiki editing tools, so I go through the articles word by word. A downside of that approach is that sometimes you can lose the big picture while working with individual details. Also, I have searched far and wide for a photo of Page, without success to date. Thanks for all the help, suggestions, and encouragement in making this and the other articles more accurate and easier to read and work with. [user:vaoverland].

He seems to have been married[3](didn't look close enuf), and may have written a book, which I'm still trying to track down.(guess not, an unfortunately common name) BTW, you can sign your entries on Talk and 'backend' pages by typing ~~~ and add a time stamp using ~~~~ instead. Niteowlneils 04:10, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I also haven't been able to determine any information about William Page's marital status or whether he had any children. I have also found information about an author of the same name, but with different dates of birth/death. Thanks for tweaking the photos; they look much better. I have been working this evening on cleaning up the articles on Hampton Roads and the Battle of Hampton Roads, and eliminating duplicative information. I have also fixed the misisng logo on C&O and added a table to the Virginian Railway article. I am also working on major overhauls of the Virginian Railway and Henry H. Rogers articles. Vaoverland 05:33, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I have revised the article to address some additional questions/concerns shared on the Talk page for the article. I have also gone back through it to add some additional personal information and a physical description of Col. Page, even though I still cannot locate a photo of him. I also have removed some dates about his early work with the C&O, which, although documented from a govt. source, just do not make logical sense to me. I would rather sidestep the issue than present what may turn out to be incorrect information. Vaoverland 11:54, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

This[4] seems to indicate he had a female relative named Mary, but its not clear if it's sister, wife, or daughter. Seems like worth contacting to see if they can clarify, and if any pics/paintings of him are included in the documents. Also, if you search amazon.com for his full name in quotes, you get two books--might be worth trying to find them in a library, and/or contacting the authors to see if they can help with either issue. Great job merging the battle info into the battle article, BTW. Niteowlneils 15:50, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Great find on the additional description information of the WNP papers at UNC Chapel Hill! I have found other indications that Page had "relatives" in Staunton, VA (Augusta County). And thanks for the comments about the work on the Battle of Hampton Roads, a topic for which web searches turn up far more information! I have noticed a discrepancy about the length of the March 9 battle, 4 hours in one version of events, and over 9 hours in another. The longer period is more logically correct, but like the dates Page started work on the C&O, to be safe I have side-stepped the issue for now. BTW, for the dates I originally used to be correct, he would have been through with UVA and gone to work on the C&O at rather young age of 17 or so. It is possible that the birthdate used in wrong instead, as he was supposedly only 10 years younger than Rogers who born in 1841 (according to H. Reid). I will post this new information about Col. Page to VGN yahoo group and see if that helps anyone there with more info. Vaoverland 16:19, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Apparently, the collection of WNP papers donated to Duke University in 1952 found their way to UNC Chapel Hill. The description and even the item number matches, although the reference to the collection at Duke provides a little but more information, including the donor's name. Vaoverland 17:03, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Support. Mark¹ 00:42, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Creation accounts in Genesis

This article was put together collaboratively by people with opposing POV. It reads excellently, and appears to completely surround the subject. CheeseDreams 20:37, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• ...And unfortunately it shows. It's not an article so much as a dot point of opposing views. I have to object.

• Object. I see the following problems that need to be addressed (I may try to help with this myself...): (1) Lead section is currently three 1-sentence paragraphs (2) No image (3) Most of the text is bulleted lists rather than prose (4) Proponents of the various theories are not identified (5) A brief discussion of the documentary hypothesis would be appropriate here (not in detail, but enough to give context to the theory) (6) There are some less "mainstream" theories about the two-creation school (dinosaurs were in the first creation, but not the second, etc.) that should be at least lightly addressed. (7) No references. Mpolo 11:35, Nov 7, 2004 (UTC)
  • I find this countdown list very, very helpful--a real service to Wikipedia quality, in my opinion. So thanks! ---Rednblu | Talk 16:55, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Object - bulleted lists are not great writing. It should be prose. See Shroud of Turin for how that can be done acceptably. - Taxman 13:42, Nov 7, 2004 (UTC)
• Object: Not only is it all dot-points, but the dot points aren't even well used dot-points as they read linearly in many places. Make it prose and attribute the proponents, and maybe it will be up to scratch. Shane King 05:46, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
• Object: no refs, too many bullet points, to many sentences beginning 'Some.../Other.../Proponents... A classic example of why NPOV should not be considered to equal Include All POVs. Filiocht 12:16, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)

• Object Full of minor illiteracies. Not every Christian article need be featured. --Wetman 17:01, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• 'Object The article seems to be almost entirely an argument (without much attempt to resolve the arguments) about whether there are 2 or 1 creation accounts. Its angels-on-pinheads stuff and there isn't enough detail to allow the reader a meaningful ability to understand -- William M. Connolley 17:52, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC).

Urm, doesnt NPOV mean that you don't take sides and resolve the arguments?

Further, angels-on-pinheads is actually a very important philosophical question about the nature of infinity and was first posed by Augustine of Hippo. CheeseDreams 00:01, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

No, it's not. And no it wasn't. It's a theological question, unrelated to infinity but related (surprise!) to the nature of Angels. And it's usually attributed to Thomas Aquinas. -- GWO 15:49, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

David Irving

For the most part a self-nomination, the article has been significantly re-worked and expanded since the last time it was nominated. Besides being a biography, it also dissects the rise of Holocaust revisionism. GeneralPatton 18:21, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Object - Far too much POV phrasing. - Xed 19:01, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • All objections must give a specific rationale that can be addressed. - as it is, this objection is too vague to be actionable. →Raul654 19:50, Nov 6, 2004 (UTC)

"enabling Irving to claim he was a serious historian, publishing original material"

"Though Irving's works were generally ignored by academics, and often criticized as inaccurate when reviewed by specialists" - contradicted by quotes from said academics and specialists

"Most serious historians picked the book apart, noting its numerous inaccuracies and misrepresentations" - who?

"Historians viewed the book as revisionist nonsense" - who?

"but they did help enforce the public impression that Irving was not just a historian of Fascism, but a Fascist historian"

The main authors of the article openly admit using the ADL as a reference!

-Xed 20:17, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Support: I did some grammar clean up, and I may have missed some things. The only POV objection I had was in the choice of "fascist historian," above, since Fascism is separate, or separable, from Nazism, and it was not by itself anti-semitic. Whether Irving is an anti-semite or not is not really in debate for us: the courts have said that he is. The governments of Austria, Germany, and South Africa have said that he is. We do not decide this matter -- not being competent to do so -- but rely only upon the verdict of those who do have the authority and charge to do so. (E.g. I don't think Alger Hiss was a spy, but if I were writing about him on Wikipedia, I would say that he was one, since that is the verdict of the courts. I don't think Bruno Hauptmann abducted the Lindbergh Baby, but the courts said he did, so, for our purposes, he did. We report the ambiguity, but we do not argue it.) Geogre 20:25, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The same logic would mean referring to Mandela as a terrorist with every mention of him. - Xed 20:40, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

If the account were written before the end of apartheid, he would have been "a convicted terrorist regarded by the rest of the world as a freedom fighter." Thing is, I can't find any "rest of the world" that regards Irving as a freedom fighter. All I see is country after country denying him entry and calling him a holocaust denier. Geogre 04:26, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

No, both the US and Thatcher thought of Mandela as a terrorist. - Xed 18:12, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Object: for now. This splendid article is not quite there, but I really do hope it will be. (1) Given the large amount of detail, it needs some more breaking up into logical sections the two longest sections need some subheads, but, more importantly, (2) I agree with Xed in his/her general point that more references and specifics in the article text are needed if all the assertions in it are to stand. However, if this is going to make it too clumsy I think many of the type of phrases Xed identifies could simply be omitted, and make the article more neutral, albeit slightly more abstract. And (3) one of the only persons who testified? Naturenet 17:30, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Support. Admirable work by General Patton. Jayjg 21:27, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

National parks of England and Wales

This was the UK collaboration of the week last week, and has been on Peer review for a few days with generally very positive responses and a few comments that have been dealt with. Largely a self-nomination, although User:Naturenet and others also contributed large chunks, and some parts (list and map) were there already. -- ALoan (Talk) 14:52, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Support. As disclosure, I was one who made remarks on Peer review. Filiocht 14:58, Nov 5, 2004 (UTC)
• (Not a vote yet) Question 1: Wouldn't it make sense to merge this article with the articles National Parks of Scotland, National Parks of the United Kingdom (and also National parks of Northern Ireland, although there aren't any parks there)? It seems like these would make a nice combination in NPs of the UK, but I may be mistaken. Question 2: How can broken class cause fire? ("Broken glass is a danger to people and a possible cause of fire") Jeronimo 20:14, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Good idea, but the article is already pretty long, and the division of National Parks into (England and Wales), (Scotland), and (N Ireland) is not accidental: each of those three areas has different legislation and different history to their parks, not to mention different parks. I believe there are significant differences between these three and I wouldn't support a merge. There is no need for a full UK page - it can just be a pointer to the others. The answer to your glass query can be found here: [5]. Naturenet 22:03, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • AFAIK the glass can magnify the sun's rays (and consequently heat) onto dry tinder-like ground and cause fire. JOHN COLLISON [ Ludraman] 22:06, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • Indeed - I have added a note to that effect. -- ALoan (Talk) 23:53, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • National parks of the United Kingdom is a summary article, a kind of hub which subsumes and links to National parks of England and Wales, National parks of Scotland, and National parks of Northern Ireland in a very orderly and highly organized manner, according to the principle recommended on Wikipedia:Article size. If these articles were all merged together into one, it would be a very long one. They are surely all set to grow further from inside, too. National parks of England and Wales is about 20 kb now, a very nice size and with no more than an appropriate margin for internal growth before it starts to knock up against the 32 kb limit. Jeronimo, if you think these broken-up UK national parks articles, which seem to me exemplary of their kind, need to be merged, perhaps you'd be interested in contributing to the current article length discussion on the Talk page? In that discussion, the user who has objected to John Vanbrugh (listed some ways below) as being "way too long" is highly recommending that this very same summary + links method should be used to break that up, and (I think, not quite sure), to break up any and all pages over 32 kb, according to Wikipedia policy. I didn't know that opinions on what constitutes acceptable page size or Wikipedia policy on page size varied this much, and my head is starting to hurt at the idea of the possible wanton violence in store for well-functioning pages, if they are all to be either broken up or merged. (Btw I should declare a personal interest, as one of the authors of John Vanbrugh).--[[User:Bishonen|Bishonen (Talk)]] 00:14, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • Support. The answers to my questions were clear, thanks. Jeronimo 19:36, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Joe D (t) 22:09, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Excellent article on a somewhat unusual topic. Ambi 05:33, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• "Support, great article, but I have one point. The photos are excellent, as well as high resolution, do the thumbnails have to be so small? Would it be a major problem for dial-up users if they were bigger (personally, I'd like to see them much bigger)? They, and the whole layout, would look a lot better. They're really beautiful photos. --[[User:Bishonen|Bishonen (Talk)]] 00:14, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC). Sorry, I'm pretty new to this page, I didn't realize it was better to first voice concerns and then (maybe) vote Support. To get a reply, I'm changing my vote to "Object because of the smallness of the 2nd+3rd thumbnail, a postage-stamp Scafell Pike isn't the compelling landscape it should be. The page isn't profusely illustrated anyway. Would bigger thumbs make it slow to load?"--[[User:Bishonen|Bishonen (Talk)]] 00:11, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Like that is it? :) I've enlarged a little them - sufficient? I don't want them too large, otherwise they cease to illustrate the text and start to dominate it - on one PC that I use, they are already getting on for half of the text column width. -- ALoan (Talk) 12:38, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • Yes, big enough, already. Lovely though thi images are they crowd out my screen as it is. I trust that's now acceptable as any bigger may cause me to object! Naturenet 13:16, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
      • Solid, Hadrian's wall doesn't look like a length of electric cord lying in the grass any more! Support: great article, interesting, very well written, beautifully illustrated.--[[User:Bishonen|Bishonen (Talk)]] 18:11, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support - very nice article. -- Arwel 19:03, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support ZayZayEM 08:26, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support Jayjg 21:30, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support ✏ Sverdrup 22:54, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support James F. (talk) 13:13, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Augusta, Lady Gregory

Mostly self nom. This was a stub a while back and I've been working away at expanding it. Some other users (notably Geogre) have corrected many of my errors. Would make a nice FA Abbey Theatre set with W.B. Yeats and J.M. Synge in the centenary year of the founding of the theatre. And potential for another woman on FA. Filiocht 13:56, Nov 5, 2004 (UTC)

• Support: Excellent and comprehensive short biography. I had never heard of her, would now like to know more. Giano 14:20, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support: I did some copy editing. Geogre 14:33, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

To potential reviewers to whom the name isn't ringing any bells, this is Lady Gregory, Yeats's angel and Mighty Big Wheel in the Irish literary renaissance. (Don't mean to insult anyone by implying that they don't know the name, but I know I'd certainly ask "Who's her when she's home" upon hearing it.) Geogre 05:20, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Comment: should the article not be called Lady Gregory, as the more common name? Markalexander100 03:55, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • We don't seem to use titles related to knighthood in article titles, for some reason. Thus, Thomas Browne rather than Sir Thomas Browne; Agatha Christie rather than Dame Agatha Christie; and Isabella Augusta Gregory rather than Lady Gregory. -- Emsworth 14:27, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • There should really be an exception for people known exclusively by their titles. Augusta, Lady Gregory would be a much better place for this article. Proteus (Talk) 21:41, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
      • I certainly would not mind Isabella Augusta, Lady Gregory or Augusta, Lady Gregory (this is the form used by the Encyclopedia Britannica). -- Emsworth 21:52, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • No, Lady Gregory should be a redirect, as it is. See the link to rationale and specifics at your more common name reference: "Use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things. The principal exception is in the case of naming royalty and people with titles."
    • My understanding exactly. Anyone care to vote now that that's sorted? Filiocht 09:00, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
      • Not quite sorted: that page gives this as a specific example: Courtesy titles (also referred to as an honorific prefix)² such as Lord or Lady differ from full titles because unlike full titles they are included as part of the personal name, often from birth. As such, they should be included in the article title if a person if universally recognised with it and their name is unrecognisable without it. For example, the nineteenth century British prime minister Lord John Russell was always known by that form of name, never simply John Russell. Using the latter form would produce a name that would be unrecognisable to anyone searching for a page on Russell. Similarly, Lady Gregory, the Irish playwright, is more recognisable to readers than Augusta Gregory. Markalexander100 01:50, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
        • Simply "Lady Gregory" is definitely an insufficient title. Augusta, Lady Gregory is more appropriate. -- Emsworth 02:26, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
          • I like this solution and am about to adopt it. Filiocht 08:34, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Regarding the name of the article: I would prefer Lady Gregory here as well (just take a look at "What links here" to see how many of the links are to Lady Gregory). Still, there are two conflicting "rules" here (best known name vs. using titles in names), so either one is really OK. Jeronimo 19:40, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support except two small things. The intro para's don't seem long enough or distinct enough to need to be separate, but simply linking them looks awkward because of the duplicated her, her. Could you expand that, or at least vary the second "her" in Her motto...? Also, the list of works seems like it would be better in a separate article. Especially for every work that is not going ot have prose written about it. - Taxman 20:23, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
  • Is the intro better now? I would resist removing the list of works, which I always feel is vital info in an author biog. Moving it to a distinct article introduces a redundant click for the interested reader, IMHO. Filiocht 08:34, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)
    • Well the real issue was that it was just two sentences that has no need to be a distinct paragraph. Unless you think it needs expanding to stay two paragraphs, merge them together so they flow nicely. I know nothing about the subject, so I didn't want to mischaracterize anything by doing it myself. Come to think of it, the article covers very little about her works at all. Were they important or was she just important for her involvement in the revival? - Taxman 15:01, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)
      • Most of her books, apart from the diaries and some of her myth retellings, are out of print or available only in expensive academis editions, and her plays are never performed nowadays. But as a 'figure', she has an importance way beyond her quality as a writer. I'll expand the lead a bit more later. Filiocht 15:11, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)
        • Well that may help, but my point was that if she is not really known for her works, all of the ones that don't deserve individual mention really should be moved to a separate article. It doesn't take much if anything away from this article to link to a separate list. - Taxman 17:05, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)
          • Just for whatever it's worth, it has always been my impression that her works were important but aren't important. Her translations, in particular, were the first and were important in popularizing the materials. At the same time, other Irish scholars (and scholars of Irish) immediately got their hackles raised, and they struck back. Barely a generation after her work, other translations were available and preferrable, but she had a big effect. She got satirized so bitterly by Flann O'Brien (a serious Gaelic scholar) because she made naive mistakes. Her Anglo-Irish feelings also brought some hostility, I gather. Geogre 05:24, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
            • My own view, for what it's worth, is that any author biog should include as full a listing as possible of published works. It serves, amongst other things, as a snapshot of their development over time. Filiocht 12:53, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)
• Support: PRIIS 22:49, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Venus (planet)

Good intro; lots of good info and images. --P3d0 16:15, Nov 4, 2004 (UTC)

• Support Filiocht 15:23, Nov 5, 2004 (UTC) Object for now. The external links that served as references need to go to a references section, along with any print refs that were used. Also, could the Recent flybys and Future missions subsections be merged? They're both very short. Filiocht 16:22, Nov 4, 2004 (UTC)
  • Ok, I renamed "External Links" to "References". Why merge Recent flybys and Future missions besides their length? --P3d0 15:04, Nov 5, 2004 (UTC)
    • Fine by me. Filiocht 15:23, Nov 5, 2004 (UTC)
• Support JoJan 19:27, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Zerbey 21:34, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Geogre 15:18, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support. The history section is nice, and the 'Venus in fiction', while small, contains the most basic facts. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 18:48, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support ZayZayEM 07:05, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Lots of dates are not wikified so they don't display according to my preferences. Are there no paper references that should be included? (I also I have a niggling feeling that it is not comprehensive enough, but can't quite put my finger on what is missing: some of the sections and paragraphs are certainly rather short. I'll support if I can't think of something to add when my objections are addressed.)-- ALoan (Talk) 00:54, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Support - on second thoughts, I think this is good enough. -- ALoan (Talk) 22:19, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support (99% of dates now wikified) -- Martin TB 17:03, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Oppose. Cultural references (I changed the heading from Venus in fiction) is rather incomplete. I assume that Venus, the brightest "star" in the sky, has been a topic in many cultures and mythologies, yet this section talks only about English / Western culture. — David Remahl 21:13, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Venus (mythology) deals with the many of the mythological/religious aspects - that renamed section really does deals with Venus in works of fiction rather than its wider culture influence. However, much as I hate to bring it up, I can't see where astrology and alchemy and so on are dealt with - they don't seem to be referred to in either article, and arguably relate more to the planet than mythology. - ALoan (Talk) 10:04, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • Someone re-renamed the section "Venus in fiction". My intention with renaming it, was that it should be _exanded_ to cover more. It still focuses solely on western novels. Fiction is too narrow, I believe. For example, it does not cover Venus from Gustav Holst's The Planets (classical music). Furthermore, it would be POV to call mythology "fiction" (even though I think it is appropriate). The NPOV policy entails including not only the _currrent_ points of views, but important viewpoints from history. My objection thus stands. — David Remahl 16:50, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
      • Sorry, I have put it back. --P3d0 17:37, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)

Light

No particular reason for nominating this. I just randomly came to the page and thought, "Why not?". (Note - this was nominated by an anon →Raul654 19:34, Nov 4, 2004 (UTC))

• Object for now - insufficient lead, too many short sections, too many lists that could be turned into prose, infelicitous placement of images, and generally more that could be said. On the other hand, a good start. I'll help it if/when I have time (it would be a nice complement to speed of light). -- ALoan (Talk) 13:54, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • I've started, moving the theories of light section to a better place at the end, but much work still to do. -- ALoan (Talk) 14:45, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Object, in case this needs another agreement to the above. Simply does not meet very many of the featured article criteria yet. - Taxman 20:48, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
• Object. Although some sections are very good (eg Theories), others clearly need more work. I suggest, in particular

• Categorising the sources of light into groups based on the chemical/physical process underlying them, or man-made vs natural.
• Providing brief explanations of each of the above, also of the items in the measurements
• giving the whole article a natural "flow" somehow. It currently flutters from topic to topic like a butterfly, but lacks any cohesive direction overall. --mike40033 06:42, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

High jump

"partial self-nom". i added to history, others helped with pictures and captioning, while others copy-edited, right down to the last umlauts. 128.8.222.44 22:36, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)(srf)

• Object. Needs an expanded lead section. Some dodgy language too - "obtaining the most economical clearance to date." What does that mean? Also seems a little short to be truly comprehensive, but I personally don't know much else that is not covered. - Taxman 00:14, Nov 4, 2004 (UTC)
• Object. 1) History is incomplete, mostly focussed on male high jumping and has several big gaps. It jumps from ancient Greeks to the 19th century, for example. It also seems highly US-biased, and mentions jumpers like Amy Acuff, while more accomplished jumpers are left out. Only Olympics and world records seem to be mentioned, but what about other international championships, notably the World Championships? It also fails to mention, f.e. when the event was introduced at the Olympics. 2) A section is needed on the various high jumping techniques, including illustrations (or a video?) of how a Fosbury flop jump works. Also, there should be more about how to jump. What equipment is used (shoes?), how does an athlete train for high jumping. If nothing specific can be said about that, mention that. 3) A lead section is needed. 4) Kostadinova's picture is uncredited. 5) A discussion of the physics of high jumping is also required. The reason why the flop works is because the centre of gravity has to travel as little as possible. This is also why people with long legs (a high centre of gravity) tend to jump higher in general. 6) The references are incomplete, and although I don't own these books, it seems like not all parts of the article originate from these sources, notably the "Procedures and rules". 7) The "Current status" section should be merged with history. 8) "which would likely have broken his neck in the old sawdust landing pits" - what old sawdust landing pits? We never heard about those. 9) The article should decide on it style. It currently mixes US and UK. We have some heights only in feet, others in both (which is as it should be), others only in centimeters. Also we have both track and field and athletics. Pick one style and stick with it. Jeronimo 07:28, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Object with nothing to add to Jeronimo's remarks above. Filiocht 12:24, Nov 4, 2004 (UTC)

Neil Young

No, he's not as important as Elvis or Dylan, but I think its a pretty comprehensive article. Self nomination -- I wrote nearly all of this, modulo some copy editing. --- GWO 16:18, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Support. Lots of blank links though.--Crestville 18:54, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Object. Good stuff, but the one and two sentence paragraphs need to be fixed. The lead section could stand to be expanded. The discographies would also look better in a separate list article that is linked in this one. Are all of his albums so notable that they deserve their own entries? They could stand to be unlinked until someone chose to write an article about them in any case. - Taxman 00:28, Nov 4, 2004 (UTC)
  • The entire 'Other achievements' section needs to be turned into prose. - Taxman 13:48, Nov 7, 2004 (UTC)
    • I don't understand. It has always been prose. Terse prose, perhaps. But it is prose. -- GWO 16:52, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
      • Well prose didn't have the precise definition I was thinking, but in general, more of a cohesive paragraph like it is currently than the broken up list that it was. It could still use some improvements in flow now, but I won't object over that. - Taxman 01:36, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)
        • I've expanded them a little, and ironed some of that terseness out. -- GWO 15:31, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support, but tepidly. The redlinks are no big deal. The linking of redneck bugs me more, especially since "Sweet Home, Alabama" is not, likely, a response to "Southern Man," but to (big surprise) "Alabama," from "Harvest," with which it actually shares chords (i.e. Lynyrd Skynyrd was not only taunting him lyrically, but saying, "This is how you play guitar"). At any rate, there is still a bit of immaturity to the article, still too much of a narrow POV (e.g. the lead jumps into the types of songs he's known for, but it's probably better to say, "Neil Young is a rock and folk musician regarded as one of the most important figures of the 1960's through 1990's" -- something a bit more global than getting to what songs he's loved for). Nitzche is a controversial figure in his own right. He got to be so much The Man that he began shoving his approach down a lot of throats, and it's arguable whether he did good or ill by Neil (yes, Neil liked him). Anyway, these are quibbles. It's of FA quality with a bit of copy editing now. Geogre 03:11, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

  WRT Southern Man / Alabama. The same chords, well you can't read too much into that. The chords to SHA are D/C/G, with a shuffle 6th in each bar. I could real off 30 songs with that chord progression without breaking sweat. (Actually, if this [6] is to be believed, the chords are distinctly not the same). Southern Man, however, is mentioned explicitly in the lyrics. I'll get on the copy editing (the lead section was one of the few bits that weren't mine :)) -- GWO 08:37, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Actually, SWA isn't just DCG (which is the old I-IV-V, which is every rock song ever), but a particular formation of the C and G that are the same as "Alabama" and "Ziggy Stardust" and a few others of that time but which are not used very commonly. Young liked that C formation (to tab it, it would be 3/5, 2/4, 0/3, 3/2, 3/1), and you almost never see it anywhere else in LS's stuff (although the Gsus is used plenty of places, part. in "Freebird"). Lyrically, they refer to "Southern Man," of course, but the title invokes "Alabama," which is a song that is even less deft in its criticism. I also think that "redneck" absolutely shouldn't be part of the reference. That's POV. The struggle over Civil Rights reflected in the song battle was the Dixiecrat stuff. Wallace and Maddux were ignoramuses, but it's irresponsible and inflammatory to refer to the entire southern Democratic party (which was anti-Civil Rights act) that way. We saw the fruits of that kind of name calling just recently. Geogre 17:26, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Well, I can't speak for how common x32033 is LS's work but its ubiquitous in folk music, (Cos of the easy fingering to the full G). And anyway that's not what's tabbed here, [7] or how I was taught to play it. And I don't think its in Alabama either. Compromise : mention that it has relevance to multiple Young songs. -- GWO

• Support, as it's an excellent article, but I'll consider changing to object if Geogre's points aren't fixed up. Ambi 07:27, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support now. Filiocht 16:57, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC) Object. The lead section is inadequate, there is no explicit references section (were all those books and links used?) and there is a bit too much of the "fan" to the writing. For instance, I fail to see how a sentence like: 'During the late 1970s, Young was sometime referred to as a "disciple" of the "master" Bob Dylan and seemed on the verge of surpassing the legend.' can be seen as anything other than POV, not to mention confusing for the imaginary reader who is here because they want to learn about a subject they currently know little or nothing of. Who did the referring? Why would Dylan be the "master"? Which "legend"? On what basis is the claim that he 'seemed' to be surpassing Dylan made? Why all the "ironic" uses of ""? There are more statements that raise similar questions, but this is the most blatant. Filiocht 08:51, Nov 4, 2004 (UTC)
  • After a few unsuccessful attempts to write something more coherent, the passage about Dylan as master has simply been deleted. -- Jmabel | Talk 20:36, Nov 5, 2004 (UTC)
  • Filiocht: Could you elucidate on what (if anything) you consider "fan writing" remaining in the article? -- GWO
• Object, I agree with Filiocht that there is too much "fan" writing. Also, I'm not a big fan of the strictly chronological layout; I'd like to see some separate and more in-depth sections on e.g. his person and his music in general (including more detailed critique). The main problematic aspect of a chronological layout is that it is much harder to find information in the article unless you have knowledge about the subject in advance -- a much more comprehensive lead section might also solve the problem. Some recent photo would be nice too (there must be some fan somewhere who has taken one who'd be willing to release it under the GFDL). Finally, Neil Young might not be as important as Elvis or Dylan, but he makes better music ;) - Fredrik | talk 01:57, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Fredrik: Could you elucidate on what (if anything) you consider "fan writing" remaining in the article? -- GWO
    • There is some POV in it. For example, "weak selection of songs" (which I disagree with, Re-ac-tor is a masterpiece). Also, I agree with Paul August's point below about understatement. And Dylan isn't even mentioned in the current revision. More context and information about influences and impact is needed. Fredrik | talk 05:17, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
      • I think the comments on the albums, such as "weak selection of songs", accurately reflect the critical consensus (such as it is) on those records. And the brevity reflects the general consensus that these are considered Young's minor works. -- GWO 15:10, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support. I've tried to address all the actionable points above, and requested more info on those that I don't consider actionable at the moment. Feedback from the present objectors would be nice. --- GWO 15:32, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Neutral. But wanting to support. This is a good well written article on an important musical figure. However I think it understates the depth and expanse of his work, as well as his importance and influence. Some comparison to Dylan needs to be made I think. Paul August 02:43, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)
  • Gut feeling would be that any comparison with Dylan will be POV, by definition. Would we insist that the Shakespeare article contain a comparison with Cervantes? Filiocht 13:43, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)

Well I don't think any comparison with Dylan would be necessarily POV, consider the following quote from allmusic.com: Young's body of work ranks second only to Bob Dylan in terms of depth, and he was able to sustain his critical reputation, as well as record sales, for a longer period of time than Dylan … As to Shakespeare, I don't know about Cervantes, but I might expect a comparison with Christopher Marlowe. Paul August 14:45, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)

I don't think the allmusic quote is NPOV or terribly accurate. "Second only to Dylan in terms of depth" according to whom? Fans of Bruce Springsteen, Lou Reed, Joni Mitchell, Laura Nyro, Tim Buckley, Nick Drake might kick up some disagreement there. A longer period of time??? Every Dylan album from 1963 to 1974 sold pretty well. Many since (Slow Train, Love & Theft) have done OK too. Young's peak lasted from Everybody Knows This Is Nowhere to ... Tonight's The Night, which is 5 years. He's had returns to occasional good sales (Unplugged, Freedom & Ragged Glory spring to mind) but I bet Trans sold fewer than Saved, and Everybody's Rocking did worse than Down In The Groove. -- GWO 15:10, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I actually think that the allmusic.com quote reinforces my point by being so clearly POV in itself, as demonstrated by GWO. I'd add, which recent Young album gets near Love and Tefth in any department? Filiocht 15:26, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)

I don't want to dispute the relative accuracy of the allmusic.com quote, but I do dipute that "any comparison with Dylan will be POV, by definition". Paul August 16:54, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)

I'm interested to see how, apart form sales figures, they could be compared objectively. Filiocht 15:32, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)

My thoughts on how to link them : (i) Neil was, for a while, the rock press's favourite "New Dylan". Springsteen had overtaken him by 76 though. (ii) Dylan admits to listening to Neil on "Highlands". Not liking, necessarily. (iii) Neil played at Dylan's Tribute Concert, and dubbed it Bobfest. (iv) They both play harmonica badly, and have whiny voices. Any more for any more. (v) They're not dead yet. -- GWO

Well potentially applicable concepts like "depth", "range of genre and style", "longevity", "influence" along with many others are all objectifiable (although perhaps difficult to measure). Interpreted broadly enough every statement is POV. Paul August 16:55, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)

But why compare Young to Dylan? Why not compare him to Joni Mitchell. There are just as many interesting parallels in those two careers, including the wide variety of styles. (Few Dylan albums couldn't be classified as folk, blues or rock). Sales volumes are probably closer too. Why not compare Young to David Crosby or Steve Stills, instead? -- GWO

Well probably for the same reason that "the rock press" called him the "New Dylan" and not the "New Mitchell". Dylan is a kind of "gold standard" and a comparison to him might, IMHO, help establish the relative importance of Young. However Comparing him to Dylan, doesn't preclude comparing him to others. By all means do compare him to Mitchell, they do have "interesting parallels, and this would also "help establish relative importance". At any rate it's just my opinion ;-) Paul August 17:37, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)

I've got nothing Neutral to say, wrt to comparing Young and Dylan. If you want to right something, I recommend you add it.

the same reason that "the rock press" called him the "New Dylan".

That reason is "laziness", and an insatiable desire to pigeonhole people and promote the Next Big Thing. Let's not do that. GWO

Hydrogen

Thorough coverage of the subject; perhaps the best of the element articles. +sj+ 10:48, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Object - the section on isotopes is a bit thin; there is nothing about cold fusion. Also little astronomy: nothing about deuterium as a constraint on models of nucleosynthesis in the early universe; stars and gas are mentioned, but there is more to say about hydrogen gas in galaxies (for example, ionised HII regions, neutral atomic hydrogen emitting 21cm radiation, star-formation in regions of molecular H₂, traced by CO emission) or planets (such as Jupiter); what about spectral lines, like the Lyman series or the Balmer series. -- ALoan (Talk) 14:05, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Comment - could use a better picture. Maybe someone could photograph the ubiquitous "hydrogen combustion over a flask" from high school chemistry? Rhobite 21:21, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)

John Dee

Not a self nom, although I made a small edit just now. Well made page on an interesting person. Go read. Filiocht 08:35, Nov 3, 2004 (UTC)

• Support. Very interesting subject well written, most people know the name but few facts, so this fills a valuable void. One minor quibble (which doesn't affect my support) could one or two of the many "Dee" mentions be changed to "He" or "His", as it is a little repetitious In "Final Years" alone - there are six "Dees" in 5 lines.Giano 09:02, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I have attempted to address this observation. Filiocht 09:17, Nov 3, 2004 (UTC)

• Support. He's a taff and a mathematician. Why have I never heard of him? -- GWO 09:22, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support. [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm|^(talk)]] 10:44, Nov 3, 2004 (UTC)
• Support, interesting and well-written article with all the trimmings.--Bishonen 11:24, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• I want to support, but is it comprehensive enough? I am not a Dee scholar, but I looked here (which is not referenced - I'm not sure how far I can trust it, since it claims that Dee coined the word Britannia and founded the Rosicrucian Order) which claims that Dee sold the Voynich Manuscript to Rudolph II (I'm sure I have heard this claimed elsewhere, so not so potty). There also seem to be more (and more believeable) details of his life here, here and here that could be included, and these websites are not given as External Links either. I won't refer to the more "esoteric" websites... I'm not objecting, but just asking whether further information should be added. -- ALoan (Talk) 13:49, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I suppose it would always be possible to expand any Wikipedia biography almost indefinitely, but some selection has to be made or we'd end up with 800 page books. My own view is that there is enough there now, but I'd like the view of the major contributor and anyopne else who is interested. Filiocht 13:58, Nov 3, 2004 (UTC)

Indeed - that is why I was not objecting. The article is good, but should it be better? -- ALoan (Talk) 14:07, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I do appreciate the attention that's being given this article. This is the level of detail I imagined Dee's significance would merit, but if there's a general feeling that more detail is needed I can certainly expand the article. I did consciously try to give more space to Dee's non-scrying life than a lot of sources do. Dee seems to have been claimed by every esoteric and occult group around, so there's lots of biographical misinformation out there. The connection with the Voynich manuscript rests on some very flimsy assumptions, but that's the context that most people have heard of Dee in, so I'll add a mention of it now. (When the system stops being so agonizingly slow!) PRIIS 15:34, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I just added information on the Voynich Ms and an external link on the same topic. PRIIS 18:05, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thanks - have you had a chance to look at the other references, which all looked pretty "normal" and useful, with some information that I couldn't immediately see in out article. -- ALoan (Talk) 19:52, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yes, this one from St. Andrew's is good. This one not so much--anything with Necronomicon in it, you are encouraged to dismiss with a snort. This third one is in between but still pretty romanticized. I'll add the first to the external links. PRIIS 20:22, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Support - as said before, my points above were not objections, just questioning whether the articles was comprehensive. On the basis that they appear to be dealt with, I'll support. -- ALoan (Talk) 11:37, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support: Dee has been a favorite figure for every tinfoil hat group since 1700. He has been more maligned and used than Jacques de Molay. Every Satanist would-be, every "secret history," every "revelations of secret power" group in the world sooner or later claims something about Dee. As for his link to the Rosicrucians, it's possible, though he's hardly the originator. The Rosicrucian "cult" in England has two very, very brief lives. One is around the time of Dee, the other in the 1680's, but they never did do much or mean much. All "secret history" is unverifiable. I would suggest that the article make it a little clearer that Dee is a popular figure for outlandish speculation. Geogre 18:58, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Oh, agreed, but then should the article not then summarise and refute or debunk some of these claims? -- ALoan (Talk) 19:52, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I've added a refutation to these sorts of claims in the "Reputation" section. I'd say it's more "blanket" than "point-by-point." PRIIS 22:15, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Wise. The only gripe I had was that you probably needed a bit more of a pointing hand and a blinking arrow to say loudly, "He wasn't a Satanist!" Point by point is impossible, because every schemer has his own point, and we ought not be in the business of validating them by repeating their fantasies. As a side note, I believe Dee features as one of the alleged links in the fake scheme in Umberto Eco's Foucault's Pendulum. Geogre 03:14, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

BTW, excellent new paragraph about hermeticism and Pythagorean philosophy in the 16th c. world. If any outsider reads it with reason and an open mind, he or she will get a good understanding of why the nuts like him, and why it's nuts to like him that way. Geogre 04:39, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Support. Thorough and readable. Smerdis of Tlön 02:48, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support. I earlier informed the author of what a good job he'd done, but failed to add my vote here. So now I have. PedanticallySpeaking 19:58, Nov 5, 2004 (UTC)
• Support, if American English spellings are changed to the more appropriate (for this article) Commonwealth English. -- Emsworth 18:21, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • I find "artifacts", "traveled", "centimeter" and "fictionalizes/fictionalized" as AmE. I can change them, but is it really an issue? If it is, are there any more I'm missing? PRIIS 08:21, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • OK, I made those changes. If there are any more, please make them or let me know. PRIIS 19:39, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • "More appropriate" because the subject is "Commonwealth"? Sorry, but I think that's nonsense. It is indeed not an issue, the only Am/Br spelling issue is to be consistent within the same article. I'm sorry you made the changes, PRiis. You've already got enough support to manage fine without the P. G. Wodehouse vote.--[[User:Bishonen|Bish (Bosh)]] 13:17, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
      • According to the Manual of Style, "Articles which focus on a topic specific to a particular English-speaking country should generally aim to conform to the spelling of that country." Thus, in this case, British English should be used. --195.11.216.59 13:23, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
        • Not sure about the rest of it, but the "bangers and mash" point below makes a lot of sense. Just because he's English doesn't make him "specifically" English. Comment withdrawn. --195.11.216.59 14:58, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • "To a particular English-speaking country." Ok, so you're suggesting that John Dee is on the level of "bangers and mash?" He lived before the break-away of the United States and is part of the common heritage of contemporary England, Scotland, Ireland, Canada, the U.S., Bahamas, Australia, and New Zealand. He is not a particularly English figure. This is aside from the fact that orthographic arguments are silly (all of Webster's reforms were proposed in England before him, and the reaction against "American spellings" had a lot to do with then-extant hostility between the nations) and that American spellings are no farther from Jacobean than contemporary British spellings are. (Sorry for jumping in, as I swore I wouldn't, but this subject is a sore spot for me, and I don't want this to affect voting on the excellent article.) Geogre 14:24, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support --ZayZayEM 05:49, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support Jayjg 21:34, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Why is 'commonwealth English' suitable for John Dee, does this mean that all the Kings from 'Will the Conk' to ' Henry the Something' have to be translated into Norman-French or whatever the English natives spoke in those parts at the time. Spelling is immaterial so long as it's correct and consistent to one country or the other. In England correct English is referred to as 'Queen's English' as Commonwealth English could cover a multitude of pronunciations and spellings. Finally 'Commonwealth' was not in general usage in England until 1649, sometime after the demise of John Dee. Such a trivial objection should not impede John Dee becoming a featured article.Giano 15:58, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • As I understand it, the policy is that specifically American articles should be in American English, specifically British/Commonwealth etc. articles should be in British/International English, and other articles should be consistently one or the other, depending on how they were started (which is an encouragement to British authors to start writing articles in British English to avoid de facto cultural hegemony :) although, ideally, articles should be written to avoid the distinction - see Pilgrim Fathers and Battle of Yorktown which seem to sail a middle course, avoiding Americanisms and Britishisms entirely. But if a middle course is not chosen, shouldn't articles on a British topic (which John Dee surely is, notwithstanding that he is part of the cultural heritage of the world) be in British English rather than American English, and vice versa, as the policy states? -- ALoan (Talk) 18:39, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• • • I certainly don't think so. I read that as "particularly national," not as "just sort of part of that nation." I.e. an article on tyre would maintain British spellings, as that's a British spelling. An article on "the tube" would, as well. An article on "State legislatures" in the US would need to be Americanized. If the institution/thing is characteristically and particularly associated with a single nation, it should have usage belonging to that nation. On the other hand, common heritage (literature, whether American or British), historical figures (whether of India or Indiana) could be either, so long as they are consistent. I write articles generally about 18th c. British subjects, with other literature and theology tossed in, and I'm not fond of the idea that my articles are all in need of a rewrite because I avoid twee and exaggeratedly anachronistic spellings. N.b. that I in fact attempted British English in the Jonathan Wild article, only to have someone entirely misunderstand "gaol" and rewrite it to a completely different word. I shan't get into a Manual of Style argument here, but I would absolutely not demand a rewrite of every article written by a Brit on a person or work that happened to be American in its first origin (we could demand that no television articles have any Anglicisms in them, I suppose, and the same for all computer topics). That way lies madness and the kind of cane-shaking rancor that does no one any good. Geogre 18:52, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
      • (TV was invented by a Scot). Mark¹ 09:28, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
        • And the computer was invented by the British, too. Proteus (Talk) 12:35, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Mes Enfants! Genug! Get real! Grow up! So long as the student understands stop flattering your egos with this pseudo-prattle. 81.135.124.238 20:55, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Behavioral finance

Partial self-nom - I added to pgreenfinch's original behavioural finance page. I think it's a good and well referenced article on a fairly interesting subset of finance/economics. But I might be biased :) Psychobabble

• Support - yeh its interesting AlbinoMonkey 12:38, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Object for now. Wiki needs definetly much more work on economic subjects and I am happy to see activity in this field, but this article is far from ready from featured status. Did you notice there are two 'Criticisms' sections?? I fixed various minor problems, but this needs more interlinks and expansion, especially where there are lists like 'Behavioral economics topics' or 'Key Figures'. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 20:16, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The outline of the article is split between behavioral finance and behavioral economics, the two criticism sections are specific to each of those sub-sections. I realise more needs to be done in the sub-topics, I wasn't sure if that was a criterion for having the main page (which is a broad outline of the field) featured. A lot of that stuff I'll fill in when I finish exams. Psychobabble

• Comment on the picture: The only picture is a picture of Daniel Kahneman. The picture had no source/license information, but I've added a probable source and assumed the picture is fair use. Because of that I don't think we should use the picture in the article -- unless I'm mistaken about the license -- because I don't think we should use it as fair use outside Daniel Kahneman. ✏ Sverdrup 23:17, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I don't know much about this sort of stuff. I assumed if it was OK for the Kahnenman wikipedia articke, it was OK for this one.Psychobabble

Lottie Dod

Self-nomination. Jeronimo 15:38, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• SupportZayZayEM 01:32, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Support: An external web link would be a good addition. Geogre 02:22, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • I know, but I haven't been able to find much more than the meagre bio currently listed under references. I'll keep on searching. Jeronimo 11:19, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Possibly on a "Women athletes of the century" kind of thing (ESPN did one of those)? I am not really a see-also person, but a Wimbleton history or women in sports see-also or external link would at least be something, even if not specific to Dod. Geogre 15:55, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
    • I added an external and an internal "see also" link. Jeronimo 11:10, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Object, too short. [[User:Neutrality|Neutrality (hopefully!)]] 22:28, Nov 1, 2004 (UTC)
  • That is not a valid objection in itself, unless you can qualify it. Being short is not a bad thing, being incomplete is. Are there any issues/subtopics you can mention that are not (sufficiently) dealt with by the article? If not, I'll regard this objection as unactionable. Jeronimo 07:57, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Seems very complete as it is. Filiocht 14:27, Nov 2, 2004 (UTC)

Economy of Africa

An outgrowth of recent efforts to unbias our fair 'pedia, and a sexy effort by SimonP and ChrisG. This is a particular milestone since there are no other continents with "Economy of" articles to use as a guideline (see Economy of Europe and Economy of Australia if you must). --+sj+ 23:13, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• Yes, I know the nomination was clobbered [8], but this was just recently nominated and there are objections that have not been addressed at all. Specifically the sentence in the intro "Improving Africa's economy as it emerges from the aftereffects of colonialism and it struggles with democracy, welfare and quality of life is one of the most important issues facing the modern world." Even though many may agree with that, it is an unnacceptable POV for a featured article. It needs to be re written so it is more factual. - Taxman 23:49, Oct 29, 2004 (UTC)
  • Well I NPOV'd that, hopefully someone can fix it so it flows better. - Taxman 19:51, Nov 4, 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Tuf-Kat 23:51, Oct 29, 2004 (UTC)
• support. Pnd 11:33, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Ah - I thought this was nominated recently, but I couldn't see it in the achive of promoted articles or of rejected ones... This was overwritten by another section (that old chestnut again). What it said was:

[that was me, by the way -- ALoan (Talk) 00:00, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)]

---

A thorough, well-written, all-around excellent article on an interesting and important topic. —No-One Jones ^(m) 00:43, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• Strong support. Fredrik | talk 08:46, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Absolute support. Best article of the year. Ambi 08:50, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Filiocht 09:05, Oct 22, 2004 (UTC)
• Support - Xed 09:33, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Support - Simon has already implemented my suggested changes. ✏ Sverdrup 10:05, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Important and excellent. ChrisG 11:31, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Oppose. The information is good, but the article is sorely in need of an editor. I may lend a hand if I have time. Someone correctly pointed out on the talk page that African_gdp_growth.png is almost illegible to anyone with red–green colour blindness. The burgundy and the dark olive green in particular will look almost the same to about 8% of males. I suggest changing either the reds or the greens to blues. Incidentally, the first map on the page, the one done entirely in greens, is very easy to read, irrespective of colour blindness. Shorne 12:08, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

  What kind of editing do you think it needs? —No-One Jones ^(m) 12:16, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

  • Just now I edited the introductory paragraph. Check the revision history for my changes. I can also point out the bizarre sentence "Africa's economy is more reliant on agriculture than that of any other continent with a majority of Africans still working the soil", which, for want of a comma, means something rather different from what was intended. I'll support this nomination once the English is cleaned up. Shorne 12:24, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
    • I've done a fair bit of copyediting and linkage. How does it look now? —No-One Jones ^(m) 13:34, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
      • I've done some more editing myself. More could be done, but I'll withdraw the objection. I have another one, however, about one of the maps. See above. Shorne 19:28, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Wow... Definite support, this is an excellent piece of work! Zerbey 14:06, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Object. Great material. I see at least two issues: 1.) The sentence in the intro "Improving Africa's economy as it emerges from a period of colonialism and struggles with democracy, welfare and quality of life is one of the most important issues facing the modern world.", while many may agree with, is an unnacceptable POV for a wikipedia article. It either needs to be cited to a source that said it, or turned into a factual statement, not a value judgement. 2.) The Geography section needs some work. The second paragraph has redundant sentences in it. I would have fixed that except for the problem is not only geographic it is political. It is the fact that the interior countries are landlocked that cause the problem, not the geography alone. The end of the third paragraph is a POV mess. That is one explanation, but is not neccessarily correct. Wikipedia can't state things like that as fact without citation. That is all the farther I got, but I assume similar issues happen later in the article. So unfortunately object for now. - Taxman 15:47, Oct 22, 2004 (UTC)
• Strong support. Simon A. 20:59, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Support. This is mostly my article, and seeing as I made it my entry in Danny's contest I am quite pleased with it. Many thanks to everyone who has since edited and improved it. I am aware the article is not perfect. I am concerned that it gives short shrift to many subjects, but I think this is unavoidable with such a massive subject matter. I would also prefer more numbers and statistics, but accurate numbers are very difficult to find. I would also like to have the colour blind be able to read the maps, but I do not know much about how best this can be done. - SimonP 03:25, Oct 23, 2004 (UTC)
• Oppose, for lack of certain informations. The history section has several problems, no information before tenth century and a very limited informations on slavery. "This region became quite prosperous as Swahili traders exported ivory and slaves to a trade that spanned the entire Indian Ocean region." is the only sentence to mention slavery at all and this make it look like only Swahili was involved or that it had only a small effect in Africa. The agriculture section lacks informations on cattles which is very important in the central Africa. The Disease section has informations on AIDS and malaria but not on any other disease that have been controlled like small pox. Half of the Language issues section is about education and there is no independent section on it. I cannot figure out why the picture "Tamale in linguistically diverse Ghana" is a meaningful one. The only linguistic thing about the picture is a "TOYOTA" on the back of a truck. Something like a picture of a ballot with multiple languages on it, like the one you see in an Indian election, would be better. Revth 03:57, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • I would love to implement the above suggestions, but the article is already longer that is officially allowed. At this point adding anything substantial would entail cutting elsewhere, so I personally think more detailed information is better suited to subpages like economic history of Africa, or agriculture in Africa. - SimonP 09:02, Oct 23, 2004 (UTC)
    • Then what the article needs is to be written more in Wikipedia:Summary style. The article should cover all of the most important facets of the subject, but not in too much detail, and the sections that are too long need to be summarized to make room for other topics that need coverage. The detailed coverage then gets moved to the subarticle or the main article on the topic. - Taxman 23:40, Oct 26, 2004 (UTC)
      • If someone had written these additional articles then summary style would make sense. But they haven't been written and so this is a unfair suggestion, what makes this article excellent is it successfully describes the key issues in one article.  :ChrisG 18:22, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
        • No, no, you're missing the concept. In summary style this article wouldn't depend on the main articles on each subtopic, just what is summarized in this article. That is the only way to cover everything properly, with every single important topic covered and none so long that you have to leave out important stuff to fit in the size limit. Anything too long needs to be moved out and summarized, but primarily to improve this article, not specifically to improve the subarticle. - Taxman 02:58, Oct 28, 2004 (UTC)
      • No I'm not missing the concept. From my perspective, the article is covers the subject matter in a comprehensive manner. In dealing with the important facets it obviously cannot cover every detail. If you use this article in its present state to create a main article with child articles, you will replace one great article with four or five average ones.  :ChrisG 10:24, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Agree with Revth. This is a good article, but to be a good featured, it needs sub-articles. With no mention of Axumite Kingdom (just to name one historical empire), the history section is definetly incomplete. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 00:52, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
    • But that would involve placing far too much detail into this article. It's unfair to object to this one because another article (Economic history of Africa doesn't yet exist. Ambi 04:37, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
      • Some topics need long articles to be good, or division into subarticles. Economy of a continent is a very ambitious project. While the work done on the article so far is amazing and would be many times enough for some other featured articles (like the recently featured infinite monkey theorem, it is not yet enough for Economy of Africa. And ATM this article is already 40k long, it needs to be split into smaller sections anyway. I recommend Warsaw Uprising as an example on how a long article was split into subarticles. I will expand the history section a little with my knowledge, but the section about early history (before Europeans) needs serious work and my objections still stand. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 12:21, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
        • I expanded the history but it is still far from complete. Considering this is an article about economy I think that is enough, for now. Therefore I withdraw my objectons and for the moment I will abstain here and look at further developments. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 19:17, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)
      • But the "main article" for the section is blank. This implies there's more information, and is at the very least, misleading. 219.95.164.146 15:02, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
        • Removed link to non-existent article :ChrisG 18:22, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Sentences about slavery was added, so now a minor object. Revth 02:19, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Great article. I think Revth's concerns can be addressed in seperate articles, ie: History of the Economy of Africa, or something like that, etc. func(talk) 21:01, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Support unequivocally. Lisiate 23:12, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Support. -- ALoan (Talk) 11:05, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Have you guys really read the whole article? I have seen no attempt made at addressing some of the above objections. - Taxman 15:55, Nov 2, 2004 (UTC)
    • Are you going to set a test? Just because you (or indeed anyone else) have objections does not mean that I should have objections. I think it can be featured as it stands. -- ALoan (Talk) 15:14, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)
      • I don't know what that phrase means, just wondering how you could support if you had read it all. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, no matter how much it differs from my own. So I was simply asking. - Taxman 19:51, Nov 4, 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Have read the whole article (after it won Danny's contesT), and I believe it can be featured as is. Minor improvements would include a bit more NPOV as mentioned by taxman, but that can be argued about -- Chris 73 Talk 14:13, Nov 3, 2004 (UTC)
• Object, still. I've had a go at fixing some of the POV, but I saw too many more that I can't fix soon. There are many unattributed statements that are so authoritatively worded that they are a POV problem. There is still some flawed and unattributed economic analysis in the geopolitical section. Many one sentence paragraghs throughout. I'm not saying its not great material, but it has some ways to go before being featured quality. Since I am in the minority objecting, I will see what I can do further to solve these issues. - Taxman 19:51, Nov 4, 2004 (UTC)

---

There are 3 outstanding objections to this article - that the map could be illegible to someone with red-green blindness; that there aren't enough sub-articles, and that there are too many unattributed statements. The first objection is, well, pretty trivial (how many people does it apply to?); the second objection is invalid because it not intrinsic to this article. Really, only Taxman's objection strikes me as weighty. →Raul654 21:34, Nov 7, 2004 (UTC)

• I think the first has been addressed by adding a special link to a monochrome map. The second is extrinsic. Should the third override the otherwise wide support? -- ALoan (Talk) 01:01, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Pictures

The first list is featured articles that do not have a picture and hence would be problematic to put on the main page. Please add pictures and then move to the second list. GFDL or PD preferred — avoid fair use images where possible (they may not be fair use on the main page).

Tangentially connected pictures may also be suitable for the main page, even if they wouldn't sit well with the article itself. Use your common sense.

Featured articles missing pictures

• Chuck Palahniuk (needs picture of author)
• Negligence
• Not the Nine O'Clock News

These now have pictures

• Ackermann function - use pic of equation
• Anno Domini - Smerdis of Tlön 19:14, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)
• Application programming interface - use UML lollipop symbol for an interface.
• ASCII (a lame one)
• Computer security - now has one diagram.
• Gram Parsons, finally found a reasonable one of Gram.
• Have I Got News For You (fair use)
• Indus Valley Civilization (fair use picture)
• Jazz (still needs free image)
• Jim Henson (still needs free image)
• Korean name - use Image:Hangul_seong.png
• Madonna (singer) (still needs free image)
• Markup language (well, sort-of; suitable for main page? James F. (talk) 15:02, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)) (don't see why not Lupin 00:37, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC))
• Peloponnesian War - use image: Corinth_Temple_of_Apollon.jpg for now, until a better one is found.
• Shroud of Turin - better public domain photos (from 1898) needed.