Talk:Kven people

• Talk:Kven/Archive 1: July 2005 – June 2006

The number of Kvens

It seems this page has used the highest number possible to find in sources on the internet. The page being linked might not be the best reference since it is a page created to promote Kvens. But it points out that there are no certain numbers on the Kven population. It also gives two numbers. One at 10 000-15 000 from a Parliamentary inquiry on national minorities in Norway made in 2000/2001. And the one used here on ca. 50-60 000 is based on a medical survey on heart disease made in Finnmark and Troms in 1987 where 25 % of the participants answered they had Finnish anscestry. I belive a Parliamentary inquiry on national minorities in Norway is more credible and that the number used in this article will unfortunately have to be reduced to 10-15 000. Inge 18:20, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Number of kvens depends on what do you mean with being a kven. Whenever you decided that you may start the discussion of how many.--84.216.53.225 13:51, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Please see the discussion in the next section for the definition and why the current numbers are used.Labongo 12:57, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Norwegian government notorious for downplaying the number of Kvens and the influence of the Kven society and culture in Norway

Be true to your own heritage, user Inge, and to correct history writing and revealing of information. Go ahead and change the number of Kvens back to the more accurate one, which properly was standing in the Wikipedia's Kven article.

It is a well known and a shameful fact that still as recently as during the time of the Second World War deportations of the Northern Norwegian Kvens to Southern Norway took place. Also, house arrests of some of the Kven leaders and other forceful tactics against the Kven population saw daylight then, as in so many other cases prior to that on the Norwegian soil.

As a Norwegian contributor on this talk page emphasized earlier, indeed practically all Norwegians are descendants of Kvens, some more some less. He point out e.g. that much of the Southern Norwegian population was killed by the Black Death, when in 1347 AD in one of the worst natural disasters in history, a great plague swept over Europe.

Also - famously -, even prior to that, the Norwegian royal family descended - and even currently continue descending - from the Kvens, and furthermore, Norway was founded by the Kvens. In light of all of that, it is hard to understand the Norwegian long lasting stupidity relating to this matter.

Finally, - only recently - the Kvens have become a matter of a special pride for the Norwegians. New laws continue being ratified now, to extend rights for the Kvens of Norway. Accordingly, in the spirit of this recent new wakening, four times the number of students in the Northern Norwegian University of Tromsa registered in to study the Kven language last semester compared to the number of those signing in to study Finnish.

Thus, the current Wikipedia's Kven article is right to point out for instance the following of the past shameful treatment of the Kvens in Norway:

"The Norwegian government attempted to integrate the Kvens to the Norwegian main stream society by custom made policies and laws from the 1860s on. The use of the Kven language became forbidden and punishable in schools and government offices. Land purchace became prohibited for those who did not acquire Norwegian family names. Eventually, the sales of land for non-speakers of the Norwegian language became prohibited.

On national level, the Kvens even became to be considered a national "security risk" ("Finske fare"). Accordingly, the Norwegian Defense Ministry in 1870 demanded for all Kven names ("foreign names") to be removed from maps. Kven town and geographical place names were then replaced by Norwegian ones."

To state that only 50'000-60'000 Norwegians are so called Kven-Norwegians - or that only that number of Norwegians consider themselves to be Kvens - is a serious underestimation and a definite distortion of truth. No reliable statistics of the matter is currently available. However, according to the official 2005 Norwegian census, 25 000+ Norwegians speak the Kven language. A multiple number of Norwegian Kvens are known not to speak the Kven language. Yet, - nevertheless - they too are Kvens, regardless whether or not they speak the Kven language, officially known as Kainu.

ObrigadoToYou 16:36, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Sigh.Again that sort of a rant, from a sockpuppet. Sigh.

I cannot understand why it is so difficult to the sockpuppeteer to comprehend that those Norwegians do not want to be Kvens. Even if they genetically were, there is a clear pattern observed in sociological studies that people from mixed ancestry often are more nationalistic and define themselves solely as to belong to one ethnicity, and refuse to recognize their other roots. Louis XIV was one of the most nationalistic French kings, being however descended mostly from Italians, Spaniards, Iberojews, Moors, and Habsburg-Jagiellons. The French dose of blood he ethnically and genetically had, was apparently minuscule. We should not need to battle over whether a bunch of people who regard themselves Norwegians, are or are not in fact descendants of Kvens. Suedois 17:37, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually the number in the 2005 Norwegian census of Kven speakers is 2000-8000 (http://www.coe.int/T/E/Legal_Affairs/Local_and_regional_Democracy/Regional_or_Minority_languages/2_Monitoring/2.2_States_Reports/Norway_report3.pdf). The number 25 000+ is for Sami speakers. As for the number of Kvens to be used, I think we should use the official estimate, but mention that there are other estimates.--Labongo 21:35, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

My edit to the Kven article was based solely on the credibility of the numbers used, not a political entry. As to the credibility of numbers from the Norwegian government I would like to point out that both the numbers in question are from the Norwegian government, but as I point out above one is from a survey actually trying to find out the number of Kvens in Norway and the other was a small local survey regarding heart disease. Inge 15:31, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I have added a demography section. Unfortunantly, I had to use two second hand sources. The first giving the percentage of Kvens in Finnamrk and Troms in the 19th century, the second the actual number for the 20th century. I also write that it is difficult to estimate the number of Kvens since there is no official definition, with references to the government report and the ancestor estimation. I use http://odin.dep.no/kkd/norsk/dok/andre_dok/rapporter/043041-220005/dok-bn.htm as my primary reference.--Labongo 21:24, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I changed the upper bound in the infobox. The infobox should reflect that there are no good estimates, and no official definition. Also, our definition of Kvens is "decadents of Finnish speaking people", and the number of people should reflect this fact.--Labongo 02:48, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Changed introduction and added the term Kven section

I have rewritten the introduction since I found it to be confusing due to the parts about the Kven language and the many Finnish migrations. I think a reference to the Kven language is enough in the introduction, and I find non-Kven Finnish immigrations irrelevant. I have also added a section about the term Kven.

I don't have access to scholarly articles or history books about Kvens, but I have used information from the webpages from the Vadsø Kven museum, the Norwegian Kven organization, and an article written by Prof. Einar Niemi.

http://www.kvener.no/ http://museumsnett.no/vadsomuseet/ http://www.antirasistisk-senter.no/infobanken/dokumenter/samora/5-01/anstrengtforhold.html

--Labongo 04:07, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Please return the link to the article Kvens of the past. That link is essential, and it was harmful to remove it. Sorry, Tildes not working, so no signing from a anonymous user.

Sorry about removing the link to the Kvens of the past article. I only wanted to remove the "possibly their ancestors" part, but deleted the entire paragraph. --Labongo 20:16, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Another webpage (in English) about the Kvens, with a Kven literature list: http://www.ub.uit.no/arkiv/maanedens/1999/199906e.htm --Labongo 20:16, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

About the alternate spellings. Are/have all of these been used about the contemporary Kvens? I know Kvæn has been used in Norway, but I don't know about the english and finnish ones.--Labongo 20:40, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Suggested reorganization

The page is currently protected, so I have not made any changes (great if someone else is cleaning up the article). However, I would suggest the following reorganization/ rewrite of the paper: (i) remove the Contemporary Kvens section, since the entire article is about them, (ii) remove all references to the controversial Kvenland, (iii) shorten and focus the section about migrations, (iv) add a section about the Norwegian assimilation policy, including the difference in the 1980s with regards to Samis and Kvens, (v) add a section about the cultural awakening of the Kvens including the debates in 1990s about who is Kven and whether Kainu is a dialect or language, (vi) add relevant links to Kven organizations etc., and (vii) remove the irrelevant references.--Labongo 02:00, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Since there have been many controversial theories, misquotations and errors in this article, I decided to remove all references and further readings. Only references about contemporary Kvens should be added.--Labongo 02:40, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I removed all mentions of Kainu as an official name for the Kven language. This is not true. The Norwegian Kven Organization uses kvenske språket (the Kven language). The same does all Norwegian parliament reports. Only wikipedia seems to use Kainu.--Labongo 02:43, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Tromsö univeristy uses Kainuun kieli, as the term in Kven language,. Kven in Norwegian.--130.237.165.114 18:51, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I added more details to the Assimilation Policy section. My source has been http://www.antirasistisk-senter.no/infobanken/dokumenter/samora/5-01/anstrengtforhold.html--Labongo 02:24, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

You are writing a bunch of garbage ! Where is your reliable source about the kvens paying taxes to the Norvegians in the Middle Ages ? In fact, the Norwegians famously eventully lost the taxation war of the Samis to the Kvens, as the earlier Kven text was reflecting accurately ! Set the old text back please, the present-day and the past Kvens undevided - Wikipedians against vandalism 15:35, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

To me the article looks now very accurate and well-referenced. Lappland was taxed by many parties during Middle Ages and later, and exact borders were only drawn in the 19th century ("Kvens" had very little part in that game, though). Demand to have past and present kvens in the same article is not a good idea, since the content is very different and usage of "kven" has clearly changed during the 1000 years that separates these two items. --Drieakko 19:27, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

The source is: Niemi, E. (1994), Kvenene og staten – et historisk riss. In: Torekoven Strøm (ed.), Report from the seminar ”Kvenene – en glemt minoritet?” 14.11.94 at the University of Tromsø/ Tromsø Museum. Kvens in the context of this article are Finnish speaking immigrants in Northern Norway. The Danish/Norwegian tax records shows that there were a few Finnish speaking people in Northern Norway in the 16th century.--Labongo 20:55, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I thought I had forgot to add the reference to the section being critizised. But it turns out that the reference above was already in place.--Labongo 21:08, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Kven vs. Sami

I added the section ‘’Kvens vs. Sami’’. My intention is to inform the readers about current issues in Kven politics. However, the information is based on what I remember reading in various Kven and Sami newspapers, and information I have found on the Kven Organization webpage. In other words, I have no references. Therefore I am not sure whether the section meets the standards of Wikipedia, and I would appreciate comments on whether to keep the section or not, and/or suggestions for improvement.--Labongo 02:36, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Swedish Kvens

It turns out that there is also a group in Sweden that calls themselves Kvens. It seems that they have only used the term for a few years, and that the motivation is political. I think this article should be about the Norwegian minority, but have added ‘‘disclaimer’’ section about the Swedish Kvens.--Labongo 00:45, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

There may also be a group in Finland using the Kven term for the same reasons.--Labongo 00:46, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

About the Kvens in Finland. The Sweden 'Kvens' call them lappalaiset (Lapp is also used about Sami in Finnish), while they call themselves lantalaiset. In addition, the term kveeni is used in Finnish. So I think I will ignore this rather confusing part about the term Kven.--Labongo 01:07, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

"Kveeni" in Finnish refers to Kvens in Norway. I have never heard or seen it used in Finland for any other purpose about the present-day groups of people. --Drieakko 05:43, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I think that the article should state that "there is no evidence that Kvenland existed in northern Sweden" since the current phrase "are not descendants of the medieval Kvens" is probably not correct since Kvens mentioned in early documents meant probably just any Finns. Swedish Kvens, if descending from later Finnish immigrants, were thus descendants of medieval Kvens like all Finns. --Drieakko 13:36, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Swedish Kvens and facts of distinct culture

I Quote: However, this group has no distinct culture, has not been known as an ethnical group in recent history, and there is little evidence that they are the descendants of the medieval Kvens." Well, there are only two groups in Sweden who are rein deer herders and members of Saami villages: The Saami and the Tornedalians (or Kvens as some of them call themselves), plus Swedish-speaking Kainulaisia in Kainus (very important fact). And the article writes "no disctinct culture". Please, try to follow facts. The rein deer herding is a very old part of the Tornedalian culture.--217.208.231.130 11:32, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand your arguments. Are you claiming that Kvens, Tornedalians, Samis(?) and Kainulaisia are all Kvens? Also, are you claiming that reindeer herding is an important part of the Tornedalian culture, and that Tornedalian reindeer herding differs from Sami reindeer herding? The main point of the section is that there are people outside Norway who claim to be Kvens for political reasons. If you have any evidence that the claims in this section (or the provided reference) are incorrect, then please provide links. Labongo 23:13, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I claim tha the lantalaiset, kvens or tornedalians, or whatever the non-saami people in the Finnish-speaking region call themselves have a distinct culture, e.g. rein deer herding. I do not care what they call themselves, but they have a disctinct culture. The state has for more than one century tried to abolish this right, so it differes from teh Saami rein deer herders. You lack facts. Is that not a distinct culture. Do they have rein deer herders, non-saami, in Västerbotten. Please give me one modern ethnic term which is not political, e.g. meänkieli is a political term. Just invented 15 years ago. It is not forbidden to invent terms. --130.237.165.114 11:42, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

From the reference for that section "Thomas Wallerström är docent i Nordskandinavisk historisk arkeologi [...] Enligt honom anses inte kvänerna ha en kultur som är speciellt utmärkande. Levnadssättet bland folket i Tornedalen skiljer sig inte märkbart åt från det hos folk i andra älvdalar i norra Sverige, vilket talar emot kvänernas anspråk på att vara en etnisk grupp och ett eget ursprungsfolk. [...] Det är en väldigt sen etnisk mobilisering som försiggår [...]". If you know of any articles that contradicts these claims, please provide links since I would be interested in reading these.Labongo 04:58, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi, just make a phone call to the chair of any Saami village and ask them how many non-saami rein deer owners htere are in the Saami village of Torne valley. Wallerström rejects very easily verifiable facts. County Norrbotten has lots about non-saami rein deer herders,how many they are, rules, nr of rein deers etc www.bd.se. Look at wikipedia swedish tornedalingar and koncessionsrenskötsel. From a Stockholm perspective rein deer herding is one example of distinct culture. As far as I know Wallerström and no Stockholm citizen own rein deers. No one in, e.g., Great Britain owns rein deers. However, a few persons in China and Siberia and northern Scaninavia do that. In my opinion it is a good criteria of a ´distinct culture. Don't you agree?--84.216.53.225 13:47, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for the wrong wwww.The correct one is http://www.bd.lst.se/rennaring/Startpage.aspx Hence, the kvens in Sweden are also rein deer herders, as well as my father was, and other non-sami Tornedalians.

"During this period"

There are too many places in this article where it says "During this period". For instance "during this period" it was prohibited to sell land to non-norwegian speakers. When?--Barend 09:05, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I have tried to reduce the number of "this periods". This is what I have done:

• Kven migrations: this period -> these two periods (periods are specified above)
• Assimilation policy: this period the Sami culture revitalized (I think this is OK)
• Assimilation policy: this period Kven people started organizing -> In the 1980s
• Assimilation policy: integrated into the Norwegian main stream society during that period -> removed that period (the Kvens have probably always been integrated into the main stream society).

* Assimilation policy: this period the use of the Kven language was forbidden in schools…land purchase: need to be specified

--Labongo 18:13, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

This is funny

In the Kvens of the past history ends already ca 1350, i.e 650 years before we were born. All after that is excluded and it is referred to this modern time site of the Kvens. But here we miss almost all the history between 1350 and 1850, just mentioned in a few lines with political and biased arguments, and no reference. Very important history and lots of documents are excluded from the Kven article. E. g. "There is little evidence that modern Kvens are direct descendants of Kvenland mentioned in a few ancient Norwegian and Icelandic sources." We have Kvenland mentioned and discussed thoroughly in a report from 1742-45. There is no or little reason to say anything else than that the Kvens of today are the ancestors of the Kvens of the past; or exclude that kind of discussion and leave that to geneticians and politicians. So it goes the article. No distinct culture, no ethnic groups. Please. --130.237.165.114 18:34, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you. The name "Kvens of the past" for the other article is not very good since it kind of robs the present-day Kvens from their past. I'd prefer the "Kvens of the past" to be called just "Kvenland" which is the name uniting all ancient sources (that end around 1250 CE) and which is the common headline for the subject in other publications. The known history of the Kvens in the north, starting in the 16th century, should be handled in this article here. Any comments from Suedois that originated the split and article naming convention? --Drieakko 05:09, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

As "Kven" was most probably an old dialectal Norwegian name for all Finns, Kvens in the north are most likely as much descendants of the ancient Kvens as other Finns. Sources from the 9th to 13th century seem to place Kvens to southern Finland, sources from the 16th to 18th century to Lappland, and today the usage of the word has retreated to the northernmost Norway. --Drieakko 05:23, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

The key point is that Kvens have not been known as a seperate ethnic group from the age of Kvenland until recent time. Also, I believe the history of the Kvens before they became a minority in Northern Norway should be limited in this article (that is anything before the first large immigration). I don't disagree that Kvens are most likely descendants of the ancient Kvens, but I have not found a way to write this without confusing readers who know nothing about Kvenland or even Finland. If someone do, please improve the article.Labongo 13:04, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Kvens, Kvenland and Kven language in the Schnitler report 1742-1745

The Kvens of northern Norway were to seom extend rein der herders as the Lapps. I hope some of you can read Swedish. Here are the most important quotes from teh report

Detta är vad man skriver om kväner, det kvänska språket och Kvänland i Schnitlers rapport från 1745. Termerna kvänska, kväner och Kvänland används av majoren. Kainuu och kainulaiset tycks dock itne förekomma. Quotes:

De saakaldede Qvaener ere fra Sverrigs Torne-Lapland og Storfinland hid overkomne Svenske Bönder...Som de i Sprog og Saeder holde sig meget till de Norske Söe-Finner, saa kan de fölgeligen til disse regnes, skriver major Schnitler 1745.

Vidare: Qvaenland kaldes her den District i Sverrig, 2,25 Miil Östen, og 2,25 Miile Vesten for Torne stad, strekkende sig op efter Torne- og andra Elve i Nordnordvest en 40 Miile ad de Norske Grenser.

Därav en 30 mil bebos av bönder...; de övriga 10 mil o- dyrkelig Land innehavs av Lappar, som man här i Landet kallar de Svenske Östlapper; Förberörte Svenske Bönder och Bruksfolk bo längs efter Älvarna, varav i detta Qvänland är mångfaldiga och stora."

1742-1745 beskriver Peter Schnitler landet och dess språk: "Af dette Qvaenland skal en 30 Miile langs med Elvene af Bönder och Berg Verks folk, som tala det Öst-Finnlandske Sprog, vara beboede. --- Det StorFinlandske Sprog som nord i Norge og kaldes det Karelske, eller det Qväenske differerer fra det Lappiske at den ene Nation ei forstaar den anden; Dialecten selv i StorFinland er saa adskillig, at de Folk inderst, eller Österst i StorFinland neppe forstaar dem ved Tronestaad."

Det tycks som om Schnitler likställer språket i Nordnorge och Tornedalen som en form av östfinska eller karelska, och som avviker så kraftigt från finskan i Finland att t o m östfinnar har svårt att förstå den talade finskan i Torneå. Denna språkvarietet betecknar han som kvänska. Termen Karelen påstås dock av rapportens redaktörer beteckna Finland.

Schnitler använder ett flertal benämningar på folkgrupperna som levde i Nordnorge, bl a markerar han skillnad mellan kväner, finnar och lappar och nämner dem explicit som tre olika grupper, men även t ex "lapfinner", "Field-Finner" och "Söe-Finner" omnämns.

”Qvaenland, (som er et Landskab strekkende sig 8 Miile fra Tornestad i Nord, hvoraf Folk udskrives till soldatre)… (BD II:348)

Qvaenland, hvorfra de Svenske Qvaenere her iomkring i de Norske Fiorde ere, begynder 2,25 Miil Östen for, og 2,25 Miil Vesten for Tornestad, strekkende sig alt till de Norske Grendser en 40. Miile vidt---Boder og Brugsfolk boe langs efter Elvene, hvoraf detta Qvaenland ere mangfoldige og store” (BD II:360)

Qvaener Market 4 Uger efter Juel, ligesom i Löngensfjord, da de Svenske Torne-Stadz Borgere Kieredster nedkomme (BD II:368)

"Qvaener, eller Torne-Borgere” (BD II:364)--130.237.165.114 12:26, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure whether you think these quotes have new content that should be added to the article, or if they prove that something in the existing text is wrong. But, I don't think I have seen this work referred in the works I have used as references. I will leave it to the (few) Kven scholars to interpret primary sources, and use their results in the article. However, my understanding of the quotes is:

-The Qvaener are from Torne-Lapland in Sweden and Greater-Finland…Their language and customs are similar to the sea-Samis, so they can be considered as sea-Samis (or is it the other way around).

-Qvenland is a 40 mile region along rivers in the Torne valley, which is inhabited by Samis and Swedes.

-The Kven language differs from the Sami language(s), and the dialects in the eastern part of greater Finland differs significantly from the dialects spoken in Tornio.Labongo 13:31, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, translation fairly okay. Sea-Saami and qvens ar emore or less one and the same people.

According to the source, the Danish person visiting Lappland around the mid-18th century says that "Kvenland" is a track 2.25 miles east of Tornio and 2.25 miles west of the city and as such proceeds along the Tornio river and "other rivers", probably its tributaries. --Drieakko 14:30, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Kvenland in mid 18th century was in its south parts almost precisely the same region where Tornedalen Finnish was spoken on both siodes of todays border rivers. This is the only precise definition of the location of Kvenland ever written and should be properly discussed in the article of Kvens.

More about the Kvens and their history during 1700th century The Sea-Saami/kvens had a few tame rein deers, and had summer and winter camps. Sometimes even autumn camps.

Finner, enten ved Söe-Siden, eller til Fieldz, hvortil kan regnes de saa kaldede Qvaenere, eller Svenske Bönder fra Kimi- og Torne- Lapland, item Storfinland

Söe-Finner …de holde nogle Köer, Faar og endel tamme Reen, men bruge ingen Ager-Dyrkning….en Söe-Finn har nu gemenlig sin Sommer- og Vitnerbye, som ha i eet Aar omskifter. Sin Sommer-Bye har han gerne ude i Fiorden for Fiskeriets Skyld, sin Vinter-Bye inde ved de naermeste Fielde, for Bierke-Skovens, og for Mosens Skyld, at haeve Braendsel, og foder till Creaturene; Nogle have Höste-Bye inde i Fiod-Bottene, for Graesets Skyld til Qvaeget (Bd III:56)

They lived in huts of torf, Torv-Gammer med Bierke-Staenger indentil fastgiordte.

Schnitler använder ett flertal benämningar på folkgrupperna som levde i Nordnorge, bl a markerar han skillnad mellan kväner, finnar och lappar och nämner dem explicit som tre olika grupper, men även t ex "lapfinner", "Field-Finner" och "Söe-Finner" omnämns.

Schnitler uses several labels of the groups in Northern Norway: Kvens, Finns, Lapps, as three distinct groups, as well as Lappfinns, Mountain-Finns and Sea-Finns. Thes quotations shoulkd be properly mentioned and discussed. Very important ones for the modenr discussion of Kvens. --84.216.52.220 19:04, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Diki Wiki united Kven text version must be brought back

To use Drieakko (also others):

What needs to be done is the following: The two Kven texts must be united, as they were before. That is why the earlier version was brought back already several times. So, when ever anyone sees the last Diki Wiki version been tampered with - and particularly if it is without proven and valid sources -, please go ahead and bring back the united and last Diki Wiki version (see history), which had reached a concensus among many writers contributing to this topic in Wikipedia.

As is known, innocent Wikipedia users have been blocked from contributing to this topic in Wikipedia, without valid reasons. When this ill-fated blocking was done, this sort of wrongful action - a splitting of the Kven article - was made possible and was manipulated to Wikipedia by a user, Leifern, who admitted to not knowing anything about the Kvens. As the Norwegian website does - the site which you call "official" above -, the Kvens and their history must be dealt with in one place, that is to say one article. The same has been done with numerous other groups in Wikipedia.

We are now reverting the text back to the Diki Wiki article which had reached a concensus recently. All changes made to it must be well backed up by known historians and/or other sources, like the user Mikkalai and others clearly requested a while back. Thank you.

The heading for this article must be changed back to be simply Kven. We are talking about one group of people. In this article the roots and the history of this group are dealt with in the light of science and information gathered by known historians and other specialists.

Steve Wondering 18:47, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I do completely agree that the article Kvens should be in one and the same place. Swedes, Finns, Tornedalians, Saami, etc have all one article. Why should we discriminate this group? There is not reason what so ever for this discrimination. Then the shortcomings and mythology of the "Kvens of the past" will be obvious. --84.216.52.220 19:12, 29 August 2006 (UTC)