Talk:Jewish lobby

NPOV concerns and suggestion

The term "Jewish lobby" is used by some without prejudice to refer to the Israel lobby in the United States, although it seems clear that it is not a precise term. It would be good to note this in the introductory sentence or alternatively (and I prefer this solution) we could put "For X, see Y" notes on the top of both this page and the Israel lobby in the United States in order to handle the confusion between these two terms in the standard Wikipedia way. --Ben Houston 15:50, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

"Without prejudice"? According to whom? BTW, it's also used to refer to all sorts of other things. Jayjg ^(talk) 17:16, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Time historical magazine coverage of a battle between what they term the "Arab lobby" and the "Jewish lobby" -- its one of the sources I'm going to incorporate into the arab lobby article in the near future:

"Operating with growing confidence, the President and his top aides turned in their most skillful selling job on the Senate so far. The emerging Arab lobby displayed surprising sophistication and shrewdness. The Jewish lobby responded massively, but was undercut by confused signals from Jerusalem, as well as by some indecision in its own ranks, and it suffered a rare loss in Congress." [1]

Another quote, this time from Ha'artz:

"The establishment of the institute raises another, intra-Jewish problem. After all, this is the home arena of European Judaism. People like Malcolm Hoenlein, the executive vice-chairman of the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations, believe that a Jewish lobby in Brussels should be run by European Jews, and not by American Jews." [2]

The term "Jewish lobby" is also used in this recent NYT headline [3].

Here is a quote from a BBC article:

"The Jewish lobby has long been perceived as a powerful influence on US foreign policy but, as BBC Washington correspondent Stephen Sackur reveals, Israel has found new support from American Christians." [4]

I could go on... Anyhow, I am not claiming that it is not used with racist intent, it is a favorite term of racists, but that to say that it is only used by those with racist intent is just wrong. --Ben Houston 18:07, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Problematic criticism of Mearsheimer and Walt

I just moved this from the article to here:

"The Washington Times qualifies John Mearsheimer's and Stephen Walt's usage of the term as the "recycling of old canards", inviting "authentic anti-Semites out of the shadows," whereas"

The problem is that Mearsheimer and Walt do not use the term "Jewish lobby" in their paper, the author of the Washington Times article paraphrases their use of "Israel Lobby" as "Jewish lobby" and then attacks it -- it appears to be a use of the "straw man" rhetorical technique. Read the WT article and you'll see what I mean. Because of this, it isn't accurate to criticize Mearsheimer and Walt in this article for "using" the term "Jewish lobby", they didn't. --Ben Houston 17:16, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Various

The footnotes have doubled themselves at the end and I can't see why they're doing it.

Bhouston, when you write refs, could you please start with the name of the author, if there is one? The usual practise is surname first, but it's name first in any event. Also, be sure to put quotation marks around the title of the paper/article. e.g.

Aaronovitch, David. "Message to the left: there is no all-powerful Jewish lobby", The Guardian, May 27, 2003.

Also, please don't put quotations in italics. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 19:58, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

The problems you are complaining about were not my edits -- you should be more careful when singling people out for criticism. But anyhow, your attention is always appreciated! --Ben Houston 20:31, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

My apologies. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 20:33, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

There is a major issue remaining -- there is significant usages of the term "Jewish lobby" that are not racist nor are they trying to exaggerate influence. Thus in the current formulation there is a lack of nuance. For example I quoted these above to Jayjg:

Time historical magazine coverage of a battle between what they term the "Arab lobby" and the "Jewish lobby" -- its one of the sources I'm going to incorporate into the arab lobby article in the near future:

"Operating with growing confidence, the President and his top aides turned in their most skillful selling job on the Senate so far. The emerging Arab lobby displayed surprising sophistication and shrewdness. The Jewish lobby responded massively, but was undercut by confused signals from Jerusalem, as well as by some indecision in its own ranks, and it suffered a rare loss in Congress." [5]

Another quote, this time from Ha'artz:

"The establishment of the institute raises another, intra-Jewish problem. After all, this is the home arena of European Judaism. People like Malcolm Hoenlein, the executive vice-chairman of the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations, believe that a Jewish lobby in Brussels should be run by European Jews, and not by American Jews." [6]

The term "Jewish lobby" is also used in this recent NYT headline [7].

Here is a quote from a BBC article:

"The Jewish lobby has long been perceived as a powerful influence on US foreign policy but, as BBC Washington correspondent Stephen Sackur reveals, Israel has found new support from American Christians." [8]

--Ben Houston 20:41, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Why no answer on Talk:Jewish lobby query?

(moved from SV talk page) It would be cool to answer my response on the talk page. Both you and Jayjg seem to be avoiding answering it. The term "Jewish lobby" is used by the BBC, Ha'aretz, Time Magazine (historically), and the New York Times in non prejudical fashions. I can find lots more references. I will continue to pursue this and outside commentators will see that your extreme position, i.e. that the term is never used by non racists or people pushing distortions, is non-nonsensical -- you are painting with too broad a brush. I know how you feel but you are not taking a position on this article that reflects all of reality, just a single aspect of it. --Ben Houston 02:48, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Also, it should be noted with a little humor, that this page currently has an example by Madeline Albreit, which I added, using the term "Jewish lobby" in a non-prejudical way. Also the quote from David Aaronovitch is not saying there is no "Jewish lobby" he is instead saying that "there is no all-powerful Jewish lobby" (emphasis added) -- thus he talking about distortions that exaggerate influence in order to scapegoat a minority. This topic is emotional but that doesn't mean one has to stop being precise about things. --Ben Houston 02:55, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

That's the second time you've referred to emotions. In what way is it emotional; and when you wrote that you know how I "feel," what feelings do you mean? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 02:57, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

You seem to be acting strange here -- your usual balance and NPOV concerns are going out the window and you are painting with a broad brush. This type of behavior indicates that your normal logic is being overriden for some reason and thus I suspect that it is by your emotions. If there is another reason that explains this please share? I am trying to give you the benefit of a doubt. --Ben Houston 03:02, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

But what emotions? My feelings about what? Please answer. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 03:27, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Americocentrism

Bhouston, regardless of any other consideration, please don't keep trying to switch the focus to only one country and one issue. The term is used by many groups all over the world to refer to many things. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 02:56, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree completely with you that my concern is only one aspect of the word's usage, I never claimed otherwise -- but that does not in anyway mean that coverage of this usage must not be even mentioned in this article. If nothing else, there should be a dab header. --Ben Houston 02:59, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

You yourself told me the other day that you are intimately familiar with NPOV guidlines going so far as to have made significant contributions to that core Wikipedia principal yourself. --Ben Houston 03:04, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes to the first; no to the latter, and it's a question of accuracy. You're determined to single out one use because of your politics. Mention it, yes, but don't single it out. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 03:26, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Why pretending there is no lobby isn't productive

SlimVirgin, Jayjg and Humus sapiens have been removing references that the term "Jewish lobby" may be made in reference to the Israel lobby in the United States. It is true that the term is a favorite of racists as the current state of the article reflects but this is not its only usage as my previous comments on this page clearly show. The term is used by mainstream American, British and Israeli publications in non-prejudical fashion to reference the Israel lobby in the United States. That said, there is a deeper reason why the removal of this viewpoint by SlimVirgin, Jayjg and Humus sapiens is a bad idea. People that hear in vague references about a supposed "Jewish lobby" from whatever sources informal or not may end up here. They may also hear that talking about the Jewish lobby is taboo even though it exists. This page, if it only condemns any mention of it as anti-Semitism but there is some hints in the way it is condemned to suggest there is more too it, it reduces the effectiveness of condemning things as anti-Semitic. Refusing to deal with the topic here, i.e. not satisfying people's curiosity, may cause people to seek information elsewhere, information which may not, especially if it is on racists sites, present a honest picture. It is much better to satisfy people's curiosity with the truth, aim to correct people that get distorted understandings of the "Jewish lobby" in addition to pointing out what are distortions and why some groups promote them. The truth it is a lot more boring and a lot more grounding than fantasies they can find elsewhere. Honestly, leaving curiosity unsatisfied (especially when done as clumsily as the article currently does) is more dangerous than giving them the boring truth. --Ben Houston 03:21, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

The article says "used predominantly by the far right, [4] Islamists, [4] and some elements on the left. [2]". I am not a native speaker but I understand that "predominantly" is not the same as "exclusively". Is it? ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 03:24, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the response -- I appreciated it. The article's lead sentence is "Jewish lobby is a term referring to allegations that Jews exercise undue influence in a number of areas, including politics, government, and international finance." The third sentence says "The expression is regarded as an anti-Semitic slur." The second sentence from my reading just specifies where this expression is used, the qualifier "predominantly" is not in reference to how' it is used. --Ben Houston 03:28, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

See: Why pretending there is no lobby isn't productive. Feel free to remove this comment, its just a notice. --Ben Houston 03:23, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Ben, please don't leave messages about specific articles on my talk page. Cheers, SlimVirgin ^(talk) 03:25, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

How's this: "The term Dirty Jew is used predominantly by antisemites, unless the Jew in question is indeed dirty." ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 03:40, 29 August 2006 (UTC)