Talk:Semitic languages

Sources for new language listings:

• Caplice, Richard: Introduction to Akkadian
• Ungnad, Arthur: Akkadian Grammar

Ben Brumfield

---

Huehnergard's A Grammar of Akkadian also has an interesting chart that further subdivides the Semitic family:

1. East Semitic
   1. Akkadian and Eblaite
2. West Semitic
   1. Central Semitic
      1. Northwest Semitic
         1. Ugaritic
         2. Canaanite (including Hebrew)
         3. Aramaic
      2. North Arabian
         1. Arabic Dialects
   2. South Semitic
      1. South Arabian
         1. Old South Arabian Languages
      2. Ethiopian
         1. Ge'ez
         2. Amharic

I'd be willing to reorganize the article along these lines, but not until this is paraphrased (ideally by the addition of more language names).

Ben Brumfield

Thankyou for that Ben, including the above there are now four different classifications I know of. In one of them Punic comes under West Semetic somewhere between North & South Arabian and Ugaritic under Canaanite which is also called NorthCentral. A user called user:Wetman on the Phoenician page proposed "Phoenician was one of the northwestern Semitic languages, those languages that include Amorite and Ugaritic, in addition to the Canaanite languages that include Phoenician, Hebrew and Aramaic." As you can see he seperates Amorite from Canaanite and replaces it with Punic. These may be very minor differences in opinion but I wonter how the arguments go for the different classifications?

Also it was brought to my mind by that user that Arabic & Ethiopic speakers often object to being called Semetic speakers. Thus I am putting a comment about the PC-ness of the term in the article.

Zestauferov 03:40, 8 Jan 2004 (UTC)

As an Arab, I strongly disagree - Semitic is, in fact, the Arabic term (saamiyya سامية) for the Semitic languages, and is founded in myths shared as much by the Arab world as by the West. If nothing else, recall that Arabs do object - sometimes quite strongly - to the appropriation of the term "anti-Semitism" to refer exclusively to anti-Judaism.

Also, the Tamashek example was ill-chosen, being an Arabic loanword (خلق); I have replaced it with one taken from Kabyle.

- Mustafa, 17 March 2004

---

Added a comparing table of four words in four Semitic languages. Jeru 11:58, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)

---

I don't think "El Amarna" is in fact a language - rather, it is Akkadian as written by scribes who spoke early Canaanite better than Akkadian, and often slipped into Canaanisms. It would be like calling Indian English a separate language... I've deleted it; if someone has a good argument for restoring it, then by all means do so! Btw, what does "maliku" mean in Akkadian? I know it's not the normal word for king... - Mustafa, April 5 2004.

---

Please check The Curse of Ham. Whether one agrees or not with the theology, he quite strongly makes the point that Hebrew, Arab and Akkadian are actually Hamitic languages. This seems like a controversial point, but I guess it would warrant mention at least.

They are hamitic languages which is why the term Hamitic dropped out of use in favour of Afroasiatic. It has been suggested (e.g. Salvini, Speiser, etc.) that the original language of the Hebrews was Hurrian, and that they adopted an early form of Canaanite from the Amorite herders amongst whom they interacted which became the Hebrew language. Zestauferov 16:09, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

Zestauferov, I'm afraid that your linked article looks pretty silly from any number of angles, which I'm not sure this is the proper forum to discuss (your talk page, maybe?). First and least controversial of these, however, is that both it and your quoting of it fall for the etymological fallacy -- the notion that a word means what it used to mean. "Semitic" is the name for this language family because that's the name early linguists gave it, that's the name still used for it, and that's the name we English speakers are all stuck with for the forseeable future. The name has no relation anymore to genetic or genealogical relationships between the various speakers of the languages, whatever those may be. As G.K Chesterton once pointed out, "chivalrous" is not the French for "horsy". Ben 16:17, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

---

Invitation for Hebrew linguistics project participation

Wikipedia:WikiProject Judaism is trying to decide all Hebrew linguistics issues for Wikipedia by themselves. But Hebrew is not purely the realm of Judaism; it is also the realm of Samaritans, Christians and Abrahamic religion as a whole, and also secular Canaanite languages studies. I'm trying to challenge mono-cultural mono-sectarian dominance over a linguistic field that we all should be sharing together. I invite you to participate in trying to pluralize Hebrew language conventions for Wikipedia. In particular, not only is Tiberian Hebrew transliteration challenged, but also Standard Hebrew transliteration, as some people want to use only Israeli Hebrew colloquial transliteration or Ashkenazi Hebrew liturgical transliteration. I think these are perfectly valid and worthy of participation, but not at the total expense of every other Hebrew linguistics study concern. Please support a multi-religious multi-cultural scientific NPOV mandate for studying Hebrew linguistics on Wikipedia. - Gilgamesh 02:54, 18 July 2004 (UTC)

Milk (l-b-n), etc.

Note: I was an Arabic TA at Georgetown University and taught Arabic for a while with a para-govt. language center in Maryland. Here are a few suggestions from my instructional experience:

1) Quote: "The root l-b-n means "milk" in Arabic, but the color "white" in Hebrew."

COMMENT: In Modern Standard Arabic (i.e. "fus'ha"), the normal word for "milk" is *Haliib*; *laban* is a secondary synonym for it and in some parts of the Arab World (Levant) means "coagulated sour milk" (a spread); thus, the root isn't unambiguously (or ubiquitously) "milk". It would be safe, however, to say that the ROOT (L-B-N) refers to "milk products" (e.g. *?albaan* "dairy products").

Suggested change: "The root l-b-n is related to milk and milk products in Arabic, but means "white" in Hebrew."

2) Quote: "The most common Semitic languages spoken today are Arabic, Amharic, Hebrew, and Tigrinya."

COMMENT: I think it would be helpful to readers to list estimated number of speakers in parentheses after each of these (data from the Ethnologue):

e.g. "... Arabic (various dialects, 209 million speakers), Amharic (17.4 m), Hebrew (5.2 m), and Tigrinya/Tigrigna (5.1 m)

3) Transliteration of 'ayn " ...in Arabic by the roots ?-r-f and ?-l-m"

COMMENT: This problem could be just a result of the character font used on my computer (if so, apologies), but using a question mark [?] for 'ayn is very misleading because it is a common transliteration for a glottal stop (also phonemically distinctive in Arabic). 'ayn is also transliterated using a number 3 or 9 (similar in shape to the Arabic letter).

4) Quote: "These languages all exhibit a pattern of words consisting of triconsonantal roots"

COMMENT: How about putting "3-consonant" in parentheses after the word "triconsonantal"? (since I assume not all users of Wikipedia are linguists - or college grads)

e.g. "These languages all exhibit a pattern of words consisting of triconsonantal (3-consonant) roots"

5) S-p-r as an example of a root

COMMENT: Since one example of a "Semitic language" (Hebrew: g-d-l) has already been used, why not broaden the pool of examples by including one from Arabic rather than giving a second example (s-p-r) from the same Semitic language? Another from Amharic would be helpful, too.

Suggestion: replace s-p-r with k-t-b (since it is mentioned below) - and to make the 3 consonants more salient, why not capitalize them?

KaTaB-at "she wrote"

KutiB-at "it (fem.) was written"

ta-KTuBu "she writes"

KaaTiB "writer"

ma-KTuuB "written, a letter"

KiTaaB "book"

KuTuB "books"

KuTayyiB "booklet"

ma-KTaB-ah "library"

etc.

6) overall OUTLINE of entry

There seems to be a visually intimidating amount of space dedicated to a classification of all the Semitic languages before the reader ever gets to "Common Characteristics" (if the reader even ventures that far). I would move the "Common Characteristics" section closer to the top before the "Eastern Semitic Languages", since it is more general information, then let the long list of categories come last. - anon

These are some great suggestions - why not put them in yourself and thus get the credit for them? - Mustafaa 02:00, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Classification of Semitic languages

I've been trying to compare different classification systems to see what they're all about. It seems that ever book I pick up has a different scheme. There seems to be some difficulty combining classification schemes for living languages with those used for extinct ones. As you may have guessed, I've worked out how to do tables, and I thought fellow wikipedians might want to edit this table so that we might reach a consensus on classification terminology.

Languages	Beyer	Huehnergard	Ethnologue	source unknown	Hetzron
Akkadian	East Semitic	East Semitic	not classified	North Peripheral	Eastern Semitic
Kish/Mari/Ebla-ite	North Semitic
Ugaritic (mostly)	West Semitic	West Semitic/Central Semitic/Northwest Semitic		North Central	Central Semitic/Northwest Semitic
Aramaic			Central/Aramaic
Canaanite			Central/South
Arabic	South Semitic	West Semitic/Central Semitic/North Arabian		South Central	Central Semitic/South Central (Arabic)
Ancient North Arabic			not classified
South Arabian		West Semitic/South Semitic	South/South Arabian	South Peripheral	South Semitic
Ethiopic			South/Ethiopian

The column marked 'source unknown' was scribbled down on a piece of paper, but it seems the simplest of classifications. It seems to fit in with some of the more verbose schemes too. Any thoughts?

Gareth Hughes 00:49, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It does get confusing! I think the Ethnologue's is suspiciously Biblical, and uncited. Hetzron as modified by Huehnergard seems to be the most fashionable nowadays, though personally I agree with Ratcliffe that the broken plural is strong evidence in favor of the older Semitic classification. Certainly East Semitic seems to be a primary branch. - Mustafaa 00:58, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

But one point I would emphasise is that it's not enough to establish divisions alone; to the extent that it's possible, we should use hierarchical trees. - Mustafaa 00:59, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I agree. I think I needed to tabulate it to see what was what. I've been using Ethnologue's scheme in infoboxes so far. I had noticed a few references to Ethnologue on other language pages and had assumed that it was semi-official around here. The more I looked at it, the more I disliked it. Would it be possible to reach consensus on Huehnergard, with the provision that South Semitic can either be thought of as a first or second division? It would make sense if all the Semitic articles agreed at headline level, and disagreements were noted in the body of the text.

Gareth Hughes 12:28, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I'd be happy to use Huehnergard as the standard; I think the main disagreements are already noted towards the beginning of this article, but I may well have missed a few, so feel free to improve it. - Mustafaa 10:55, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Here's me playing with tables again! I've taken the current text of the article and put it in this table. I'm not sure whether we need to mention every Semitic language in this article, but just give an overview of the different branches. This table could be ajusted for Huehnergard, and could have more languages included, but I would suggest fewer individual languages and more emphasis on the branches and groupings of Semitic languages.

Eastern Semitic	Akkadian — extinct
	Eblaite — controversial, either East Semitic or Northwest Semitic — extinct
Central Semitic	Northwest Semitic	Ugaritic — extinct
		Canaanite languages	Ammonite — extinct
			Moabite — extinct
			Edomite — extinct
			Hebrew — renewed
			Phoenician (incl. Punic) — extinct
		Aramaic languages	Syriac
			Mandaic
		Amorite — extinct (attested only in proper names transcribed in Akkadian; perhaps parent lang. of NW or Cent. Semitic)
	South-Central Semitic (Arabic)	Arabic
		Maltese
South Semitic	Southwest Semitic	Ethiopic	North Ethiopic	Tigrinya
				Tigre
				Ge'ez
			South Ethiopic	Transverse	Amharic
					Argobba
					Harari
					East Gurage languages	Selti
						Wolane
						Zway
						Ulbare
						Inneqor
				Outer	Soddo
					Goggot
					Muher
					West Gurage languages	Masqan
						Ezha
						Gura
						Gyeto
						Ennemor
						Endegen
		Old South Arabian	Sabaean — extinct
			Minaean — extinct
			Qatabanian — extinct
			Hadhramautic languages — extinct
	Southeast Semitic	Soqotri
		Mehri
		Jibbali
		Harsusi
		Bathari
		Hobyot

Gareth Hughes 11:10, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

That's a cool idea; and I do agree that linking to subgroups rather than individual languages makes it more readable in some cases. My one objection is a minor point: it seems a little too colorful to me, to the point that it distracts a bit from the text. - Mustafaa 11:35, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Is someone who studies Semitic languages a Semitist, as the article says, or a Semiticist, as I would usually say? I'm just not quite sure myself. --Gareth Hughes 10:54, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Neither am I... Google doesn't offer much help either! - Mustafaa 23:03, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think it's Semiticist. Semitist sounds more like a religious affiliation than a linguistics practice. - Gilgamesh 00:45, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Trees

The recent changes to the Semitic classification tree seem to be based on the Ethnologue. I would normally consider this alone a sufficient basis to revert them, given how terrible its data is on languages of the Middle East and North Africa; however, I'm not sure what the original trees came from, so I'll see if I can track down Huehnergard's stuff. - Mustafaa 15:49, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Geez

First of all, what it says right at the top is "this classification is based on Hetzron (1972) as amended by Huehnergard." Both of them, as I understand it, agree in placing Geez in North Ethiopic; changing the classification without changing that sentence renders the article false. Hetzron (who, by the way, is not a European) presents strong evidence that Geez cannot be the common ancestor of Amharic and Tigrinya, which most comparative linguists have accepted. Merely claiming that he must be wrong is not evidence; if you want the article to note that some people think otherwise, cite a source (preferably someone with at least a basic acquaintance with the principles of comparative linguistics.) - Mustafaa 19:20, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

PS: if you know Amharic, it would be great to have more Amharic examples. Perhaps in the comparative table? - 212.219.238.30 19:36, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Totally disputed

The article as it stands now includes a pack of anti-Ethiopian lies that anti-Ethiopians who claim to be "linguists" have always told. I dispute this article. They say that Amharic couldn't have possibly developed out of Geez. Like they even have the slightest clue what they are talking about. That is exactly like someone from Somalia claiming himself an expert and saying that Romanian didn't come from Latin. It shouldn't even be necessary to find sources that say Amharic came from Geez, they are everywhere. All Ethiopian Semitic languages came from Geez, and they didn't come from anywhere else. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 19:39, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Just out of morbid curiosity, do you have any reason to believe that either Robert Hetzron or John Huehnergard were "anti-Ethiopian", or are you just saying this because they happen to disagree with you? - Mustafaa 19:43, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

If they set Ethiopian scholarship and records, that unanimously trace the development of Geez into Amharic, at nought, then they're anti-Ethiopian. As well as utterly ridiculous. Half of Amharic is pure Geez. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 19:46, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

That doesn't mean a thing. Half of Spanish is pure Medieval Italian; that's not because Spanish descends from Medieval Italian, but because they both descend from a common ancestor. Anyway, I've now put full source details. You're welcome to try and find a linguist who agrees with your position, but good luck. - Mustafaa 20:57, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

If only 40% of Amharic has Geez cognates (I would have expected it to be a lot higher), then that would be way way more different than any Romance language is from Latin, and would still be completely irrelevant to the question. Only shared innovations - not shared retentions - constitute evidence for subgrouping. In any event, you can't attribute a view to "Ethiopian linguists" without so much as naming a single book, and - unless you happen to be a world-renowned expert on Semitic languages with extensive data on every Gurage language as well as Geez, Amharic, Tigre, and Tigrinya - you certainly can't claim a "major gap in his knowledge" (although you could attribute that claim to someone, if you could find someone rash enough to make that claim in print.) See also Wikipedia:No original research. - Mustafaa 15:34, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm sure it's a lot more than 40%, but the point is, we're not talking "cognates", we're talking about the same, identical unchanged word from Geez directly into Amharic. You won't find that situation in any Romance language. There are no words in any modern Romance language that haven't gone through some spelling change. But all the AMharic words are spelled exactly the same as the Geez words, with few exceptions. Its funny how none of your linguists seem to know Amharic. I challenge you to find a linguist who speaks Amharic (Yes, there actually are some) and see what he says on the matter. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 15:39, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't know for sure whether he spoke Amharic or not, but he did write quite a lot about it - 'La rection du theme factitif en amharique' (La Museon 76, 1963), followed soon by 'La voyelle du sixieme ordre in Amharic' (Journal of African Language 3, 1964), 'Pronominalization in Amharic' (Journal of Semitic Studies 11, 1966), 'Toward a case grammar of Amharic' (Studies in African Linguistics 1, 1970) - and spent some time in Ethiopia, so I would hope he had learned some. I know of plenty of linguists who certainly speak Amharic: Zelealem Leyew, for instance, or Aklilu Yilma, or Anbessa Teferra, or David Appleyard - but I am not aware that any of them have specialized in the subgrouping of Semitic. Mustafaa 15:53, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Well check with them, please... If they know Amharic, then they know how identical Amharic (voacbulary, not syntax or grammar) is with Geez (in fact, even more so than Tigrinya) ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 15:55, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Of these four, the only potentially relevant book I can see is David Appleyard's "Ethiopian Semitic and South Arabian : towards a re-examination of a relationship". Israel Oriental Studies, 16. Studies in Modern Semitic Languages (volume dedicated to Gideon Goldenberg), pp. 203-228. [Dec 1996] ISSN 0334-4401. ISBN 90 04 10646 4, which I'll keep an eye out for. However, until someone does come up with a cite, recall no original research. - Mustafaa 16:07, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Original research? You are going to be embarrassed when you see how many cites from linguists there are stating the correct view that AMharic developed into Geez. Please don't tell me an American writing in 1997 knows better than all of them. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 16:16, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

My unsolicited advice (as a 3rd party who saw this pop up on his watchlist) is to refer to Wikipedia:Verifiability, which instructs users to cite verifiable sources, even if the facts therein are in doubt. Myself, I always thought Amharic descended from Ge'ez. This is the first time I've heard otherwise; however, my own sources were either a conversation with someone, or some text that was not about languages or linguistcs (and note that some texts still refer to the Ethiopian church as "Coptic"). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 16:30, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

could you restrict the warning boilerplate to the relevant section please? This is not the Amharic article, you know, and most of its content is undisputed. thanks, dab (ᛏ) 16:13, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, now you mention it, verifiability is the relevant criterion. I still haven't seen even a citation that would suggest that there is any dispute to discuss - though if anyone can come up with a counterclaim by a linguist, that would no doubt make the article more interesting. Strictly speaking, even the claim that it is widely believed in Ethiopia that Amharic descends from Geez should really be sourced; however, since CS is no doubt in a position to readily verify that claim, I propose it as a compromise wording. - Mustafaa 16:11, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

I added a citation from Dr. Amsalu Aklilu to the Amharic language article, that Amharic inherited much of its vocabulary directly from Gi'iz. I can expand that with a fuller quote from him if you like. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 16:45, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Funny you should mention that - the broken plurals happen to be something I've looked into. The quick answer is that everyone agrees that those plurals are from Geez; however, all sources I've examined also agree that these are learned loanwords (like the Latin words in English), not inherited vocabulary (see historical linguistics.) I'd love to see his exact wording, but I suspect he's saying the same. - Mustafaa 17:52, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

That is his exact wording - that they ARE "inherited vocabulary". ("Bamarinnya qwanqwa wisT keGi'iz yeteworresu bizu simotch 'allu." - p.42, "T'iru 'Amarinnya Dirset 'Indiet Yale New!") I can't imagine what is the true motive behind this scholarly attempt to paint Amharic as somehow Cushitic. Gi'iz was the ONLY Semitic language spoken in Ethiopia for ove 1000 years, and all the modern Semitic languages there most definitely came directly from it. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 18:08, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm confused, I thought the claim was that Amharic did not descend from Ge'ez (i.e., it descended from some other Semitic language). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 18:58, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Cushitic?! Nobody claims that Amharic is anything but Semitic. Rather, the theory is that Geez was never the only Semitic language in Ethiopia: that, when Geez first emerged northern Ethiopia, a different Semitic language - the ancestor of Amharic and much of Gurage - was already being spoken somewhere in the Highlands. - Mustafaa 18:49, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't know of anything anywhere whatsoever to support such a "theory" - unles its maybe it could possibly be the musings of your American "expert"... ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 20:53, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Codex, your "Cushitic" and ""expert"" jabs seem to show that this is an ideological question for you. I don't know the consensus on this, but why is it a priori unlikely that Amharic is not a descendent of Ge'ez but rather a sister language of Ge'ez, both classifiable as South Semitic? This is really a questions for historical linguists, and there is nothing polemic about it. I am reminded of the question whether Hindi is directly descended from Sanskrit (it isn't; it's descended from Indo-Aryan dialects contemporary to Sanskrit). This would really be a very specialist and obscure question if Amharic/Hindi speakers were not emotionally tied to Ge'ez/Sanskrit as liturgical language; the question is best left to experts. Ge'ez may have been the only Semitic language written in Ethiopia for 1000 years, but that tells you nothing about dialects that were spoken at the same time. dab (ᛏ) 16:01, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

No, it's not quite that, it's that the development of Geez into Amharic and Tigrinya took place in historic times, and is a matter of record, every bit as certain as the transformation of Latin into French, or Anglo-Saxon into English. Only problem is, the records are written in this funny alphabet that most Europeans can't read, and they tend to disregard anything written in it as worthless and inaccurate anyway, so they come up with their own patronizing theories and classifications like this one. Yes, it is patronizing. It's exactly like, say, Chinese scholars proposing that French didn't come directly from Latin, but from an unattested "sister" language that was spoken, but never recorded. The French only think their language came from Latin because they are Catholic and have an emotional, superstitious attachment to the language because they hear it in Church, but now it's time to disillusion them. What about all the documents that show the intermediary stages between Latin and French? Oh, well, those are of little concern, since we can't read the alphabet anyway, and are liable to be erroneous, since French are notorious liars. Get what I'm saying? ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 19:20, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Codex SInaiticus, I don't think disparaging Europeans is ging to help you. There is a substantial body of scholarly opinion that Amharic is not a direct descendant of Ge'ez, more of a niece. Note that this isn't to say that there is no relationship, but that Amharic is not a direct descendant. Lets acknowledge that that's there. You are propounding an argument that Ge'ez is a direct descendant. Now, to make this a valid and useful argument you have to provide sources that we can look up. I am not against Amharic, nor is anyone else. This is not a lie or ignorance, but the mainstream scholarly opinion. Now it may be wrong, but you have to prove it. --Gareth Hughes 19:32, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Anyone who cares to do any bit of research into the matter will find abundant sources, even in English, stating that Amharic IS a direct descendant of Geez. The way this is becoming the "mainstream opinion" is so similar to so many other cases: Because a tiny cabal declares it the "mainstream opinion", and proceeds to scoff and ridicule at anyone who points out their blatant error. I don't think it is a mainstream opinion, when the first people started saying that within the last decade, and anything you find before that has it right. The proof is there. Do some real research, and don't believe anything just because some self described expert without a shred of basis proclaimed it in the last few years. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 19:38, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

No one denies that Amharic is closely related to Ge'ez, and that Ge'ez is the only Semitic language known from Ethiopia in antiquity -- but that means neither that Amharic is a direct descendent of Ge'ez nor that there wasn't any influence of neighbouring languages on Amharic.

To cite an earlier source, Wolf Leslau wrote in 1945 ("The Influence of Cushitic on the Semitic Languages of Ethiopia, a problem of substratum", in: Word 1): "The student of the Ethiopic languages, even though he knows that these languages belong to the Semitic group, cannot help being struck by their non-Semitic character. [...] The reason which accounts for the non-Semitic character of the Ethiopic languages is the result of the influence of the neighboring languages. The Semites of South Arabia who conquered Ethiopia imposed their Semitic languages on a country in which Cushitic languages were and still are spoken. It is not surprising, therefore, that the Cushitic substratum has very strongly influenced the Ethiopic languages in phonology, morphology, syntax, and vocabulary."

No one doubts the strong affiliation of the Semitic languages in Ethiopia to one another. The point is that Amharic, besides being influenced by Cushitic languages (as it is demonstrated by Leslau in the mentioned article) is sometimes incongruent with Ge'ez. For example, in Geez the past tense of the verb 'to speak' is expressed by an interesting form that is conjugated like the imperfect: ይቤ yəbe, whereas in amharic the form (although quite irregular) is conjugated like other past tense forms: አለ alä; Another example: in Ge'ez a past tense verb in the 3rd person with an object pronoun is contracted as follows: wălădă + (h)u = wălădo, whereas in Amharic it is: wällädä + (ä)w = wällädäw. It is improbable that the vowel o would transform to äw. One last example: negative verbs in Ge'ez are formed with the prefix ኢ ʔi as in: ኢይትከሃለኒ ʔi-yətkăhal-ănni, ኢኀደገ ʔi-ḫădăgă, etc. whereas in Amharic the negative prefix is አል- al-, and the l is assimilated to the prefixes of the imperfect. These features point to a different origin, an origin not very far from Ge'ez, but not identical.

One last thing, I find ፈቃደ's allegations that "Americans" or "Europeans" scholars can't read the Ethiopic script insulting. No discussion can be made this way. I can say on my account (and also of some of the linguists that were mentioned earlier) that I live in Israel, and thus belong to neither of the two designations. yhever 05:18, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

The French/Latin comparison is actually a good one. Now, French is indeed not descended from Liturgical/Church Latin, much less from the literary Latin of Cicero or Vergilius. It is descended from "Vulgar Latin". Now, if you like, I suppose you could argue Amharic is descended from "Vulgar Ge`ez", if you define that to include all South Semitic dialects spoken in Ethiopia in the 4th century (as is pretty much the case with the definition of "Vulgar Latin"). The problem is, afaik, that Ge`ez, like Sanskrit, but unlike Latin, is a term restricted to one particular, literary dialect, and it appears (I wouldn't know), that scholars argue against a direct descent of Amharic from literary Ge`ez. You would be surprised, I imagine, how sparsely documented the evolution of Latin into Romance really is. There are virtually no records of vernaculars before the High Middle Ages. Judging from the records, everybody was speaking more or less correct Latin until 1100 or so, and suddenly, they switch to fully developed Old French. There is no detailed record of that evolution, there is rather a gap of 800 years or so, and I imagine it will be similar with Ge`ez/Amharic. dab (ᛏ) 08:16, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I think that Dab's comments are insightful. We could understand the Ethiopic family as being codescendent of a language that can be called Ge'ez, which developed into different dialects (with northern and southern dialect groups), and that Classical Ge'ez is a prestige northern dialect that influenced the development of other dialects north and south, and Amharic is such a southern dialect, with more classical influence than others. Now, that picture makes Amharic descendent from a 'Proto-Ge'ez' that is usually not so called, with reinforcement by influence of Classical Ge'ez. Now, linguistic scholarship does not call the early stages of the language Ge'ez, reserving that name for the classical language. However, if Codex Sinaiticus interprets Ge'ez to be also the early stages of Ethiopic development, we have found that our differences lie in the definition of that word rather than in the classification of Amharic. --Gareth Hughes 11:39, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

you may find that most of the "disputes" of linguistic classification boil down to similar issues of terminology. However, Wikipedia is not free to coin terminology. See also the suggested "Hellenic" group at Ancient Macedonian language. dab (ᛏ) 11:51, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes but the reason why Scholars, both Ethiopian and non, were so unanimous (until the late 1990's) that Amharic comes directly from Geez (yes, literary Geez) is because they share so much of the same vocabulary, even down to the same spellings. Ironically, Tigrinya, which is so often held up as being closer to Geez, generally has divergent spellings. We're not talking about strictly "literary" words either, these are everyday basic words, indeed it is hard to forma sentence in Amharic that does not use some straight up Geez vocabulary. One example, the word for "Life", in Amharic and Geez it is spelled ሕይወት, in Tigrinya it is spelled ሂወት. Now let's look at the wikipedia article on Amharic, the following vocab words found there are spelled identical with Geez that I know of, probably more: ፊደል ፍቅር ንጉሥ ቅዱስ ሠራዊት ተባት ቤት ጸሐፊ መምኅር ጠቢብ ካህን ድንግል አህጉር ኮከብ ዕውቀት ክቡር ኃይል እውነት አለም ልብ ምድር ሃይማኖት - that's a good percentage of the words on that page that are pure Geez, and some of the most common ones. Now let's look at the article on Geez, we find there the following words that are also perfectly good Amharic: ክብር ሰማዕታት ሐዋርያት መጽሐፍ ብርሃን ሃይማኖት ነፍስ መለኰት አበው (again, most of the words) and from the first line of Henok in Geez at the bottom, we find the following words that are identical in both languages: ቃል በረከት ባረከ ጻድቃን ዕለት. You wouldn't be able to say much in Amharic without these words, and you won't find that many Latin words in any Romance language, and I don't know about Hindi / Sanskrit, but I doubt they are as close. So this "Semitic expert" coming out of the blue in the 1990's and saying Amharic is not from Geez, I suppose everyone who doesn't speak a word of either language can get together and vote by consensus that he is right and everyone before him is wrong. As for "Cushitic stratum", nobody has ever shown me a single word yet in Amharic that is allegedly derived from any Cushitic tongue. Every last one of the few coincidences between Amharic and Oroomifaa, are words that Oroomifaa recently borrowed from Amharic, that can easily shown to be Semitic. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 15:05, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Convergent spellings is probably the worst indicator there is in comparative linguistics. I once read a nice book that proved that Welsh was descended from Hebrew by this very method. I think it's about time you present sources to back up your claims: that is books, journals, papers and websites. --Gareth Hughes 15:22, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

You think I'm making all this up? You think it's original research? You think I'm the first or the only person in the world to hold the view that Amharic comes from Geez? Man, you really make me laugh! You evidently haven't done an ounce of research yourself, all you have to do is crack open any book on the subject that was published before 1999 or whenever it was this American rewrote history. Like I said, there are numerous sources, I could fill a whole page. It really makes me laugh that you don't believe me. This has absolutely nothing to do with Welsh and Hebrew, these are IDENTICAL SPELLINGS FOR THE SAME WORD WITH THE SAME MEANING!!!! I reallyhave to wonder where all these "experts" are suddenly coming from who obviously don't know a single word of Amharic or Geez!!! ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 15:29, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Still no sources... --Gareth Hughes 15:31, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, now you're wrong, because I did give a source. I added it to the Amharic article. How many more would you like?? ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 15:35, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

The sources can be found in the library, please be patient until I or somebody else can get to one. In the meantime, do a google search for: Amharic "from Geez" (304 hits). This should demonstrate to skeptical neophytes that there is indeed a considerable body of thought that holds Amharic to come from Geez, and that I'm not inventing this idea. A few of these pages even seem to argue your newer theory that it came from an invisible, unwritten sister tongue, but the vast majority take it as read that with so much of the core vocabulary unchanged, one grew directly from the other. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 15:50, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Please stop using the word lying: it is considered VERY rude and personal attack. Look at this page: you are alone in your argument. That's why you need evidence. There's a whole pile of books mentioned in the Amharic language article. Tell me which ones support your claim, and which pages are relevant. --Gareth Hughes 15:50, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I changed the word lying, but it is infuriating because you clearly don't know what you are talking about and don't speak either language. As for me being "alone" in my argument, maybe on this page, but not on the web, see the post above I just made. As for which books on the Amharic article support my claim: All of them. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 15:53, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Particularly relevant link

Here is one of the best sources I have found - the 1911 Brittanica article. http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/S/SE/SEMLER_JOHANN_SALOMO.htm Although written in typically haughty turn-of-the-century language, it clearly backs up what I have said about a gradual transformation from Geez into Amharic, that is well attested. (The relevant paragraphs are down the page, and were evidently supposed to have scanned onto the preceding page-article, "Semitic languages", but you know how scanning print goes!) Anyway, I am surprised to hear the transformation from French into Latin is not as well documented. I know for a fact that the transformation from Old English into Middle and Modern English during the same time frame is quite well documented, since there exist substantial quotes in the English language for every single year AD, from about 900 to th present... ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 18:31, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

"The Abyssinian chronicles have for centuries been written in Geez, largely intermingled with Amharic elements. This language of the chronicles, in itself a dreary chaos, often enables us to discover what were the older forms of Amharic words. A similar mixture of Geez and Amharic is exemplified in various other books, especially such as refer to the affairs of the government and of the court." - 1911 EB ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 18:41, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Dear ውይይት, I hope you understand the difference between loanwords and words inherited from common source. The more time passes the more phonetical changes appear between source word in source-language (ur-language) and its descendant. If time span between source-language and its descendant is not too big (say 500 years) changes are not many and related words in both languages are easy to recognize (like in Middle and Modern English) though not identical. And finally there are basic words in languages that don't like to be borrowed and cultural items that are borrowed more easily. And we have two sets of words in two languages: in the first they are related but differ, and in the second they are identical, we can presume that 2nd one is loanwords. So what can we see from the following words (in Geez, Tigrigna and Amharic) (all are very basic words):

all - kʷəllu - kʷəllu - hullu

bark - ləḥ(ə)q' - ləḥq'i - ləṭ

belly - käbd - käbdi - hod

big - ʕabiy - ʕabiy - təlləḳ

bird - ʕof - ʕuf - wof

black - q'älim - q'älim - ṭəqur

bone - ʕaq'əm - ʕaq'mi - ʔaṭənt

burn - ʔandada - ʔänäddädä - täqaṭṭälä

dog - käləb - kälbi - wušša, wəšša

ear - ʔəzən - ʔəzni - ǯoro

earth - mədər - mədri - märet

hand - ʔəd - ʔid - ʔəǯ

head - rəʔəs - rəʔəsi - ras

horn - ḳärn - ḳärni - ḳänd

knee - bərk - bərki - gulbät

leaf - ḳʷäq'əl - ḳʷäq'li - ḳəṭäl

liver - käbəd - käbdi - gubbät

neck - kəsad - kəsad - ʔangät

small - nəʔus - nuʔus - ṭənnəš

tooth - sən - sənni - ṭərs

two - kəlʔe - kələtte - hulät

water - may - may - wəha

we - nəḥnä - nəḥna - ʔəñña

white - q'aʕəda - q'aʕəda - näč’č’

Yes, in many cases wee see that Geez and Amharic words are related (but not borrowed) and Geez and Tigrinya look much more related.Koryakov Yuri 00:10, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure what your point is... Several of those Giiz words were also borrowed directly into Amharic as separate lexical items, you merely ignored these and put them beside variants that are more divergent. Namely, these 8 Geez words you gave above, ልጥቅ አቅም ከልብ ምድር ርዕስ ክሳድ ንዑስ ማይ, are all found in Amharic also, in some cases as compound forms; and unlike Tigrinya there is no difference in the spelling. These Amharic words ሁሉ ሆድ ዎፍ እጅ ቀንድ ሁለት እኛ (and probably also ጉበት, though you gave the same word in Geez / Tigrinya as for ሆድ) show the regular sound changes, and are only slight modifications of the original Geez. ትልቅ is from a different Giiz word than ዓቢይ, but still from Geez. (Also, anyone literate in Amharic is going to recognise the words ዓቢይ and እዝን and know what they mean, even though they aren't strictly speaking considered Amharic words...) ቀሊም has survived as ቀለም, with a change in meaning to "colour" or "paint"; and as for አንደደ, I don't know why you put it next to ተቃጠለ when there is a better Amharic synonym nearly identical in form, አነደደ that would have been much more appropriate. That leaves only ጥርስ ቅጠል ነጭ, that appear to be entirely separate lexical items, and I don't know the etymology of ጥርስ but ቅጠል and ነጭ are obviously from Geez stems meaning "to connect" and to bleach. Maybe I shouldn't assume you can read fidel, since you addressed me as "ውይይት", which is in my signature, but it means "Talk page"... ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 02:15, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

One thing to note here is that Ge'ez isn't as new a language as commonly thought. There are definite inscriptions in Ge'ez (the script - Alphabetic at this point, not an abugida) from the 5-6th centuries B.C. (there are also King inscriptions which could be as old as 1000 B.C. depending on the dating of Yemeni counterparts, but I'm not sure as to the closeness to Ge'ez of the language).

@ፈቃደ, Tigrigna is indeed more closely related to Ge'ez than Amharic. It's most evident from the lack of pharangyeals in Amharic, while they have been generally preserved in Tigrigna (and Tigre). Moreover, the cognates in Amharic that are the same as in Ge'ez are more likely to be more recent loanwords than untouched forms, though they could also be unchanged due to the prevalence of writing in Ge'ez while speaking Amharic during the Solomonid dynasty.

@Koryakov Yuri: Some of the word comparisons you have above are misleading. "təlləḳ" is completely unrelated to the Ge'ez form (perhaps it is an example of Agaw substratum), and other words you show come from other semetic roots that exist in Ge'ez. angät comes from anag (chain for a neck in Ge'ez) and also exists as ʔangät in Tigre and Tigrigna; tirs (tooth) comes from the word for "molar," rather than being a large corruption of tooth (meaning shifts as small as this don't need many years to occur). The words in Amharic that seemingly have no relation to the Ge'ez probably do not and either come from a different Ge'ez root or are a result of Agaw influence.

Yom 07:02, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi Yom, ትልቅ / ታላቅ can surely be traced back to ላቀ ("surpassed, exceeded"), and that does not sound like Agaw to me, more likely Geez. My Geez vocabulary resources are rather limited, but I do note the word ለቅሐ which seems a likely candidate -- although it means "loaned", possibly another shift in meaning... ? ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 13:59, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but I was looking through this while on my way to more recent discussions and noticed a few more misleading points made by Koryakov Yuri. Note that I'm not saying that Amharic is more closely related to Ge'ez than Tigrinya (this is obviously not the case).

big - ʕabiy - ʕabiy - təlləḳ - Misleading as its a different root. ʕabiy or ዐብይ has the meaning of "primary" or "major" in Amharic.

burn - ʔandada - ʔänäddädä - täqaṭṭälä - Huh? This is a completely different root and ignoring an identical root in Amharic. "n-d-d" means to burn in Amharic as well. I'm not sure what the verb would be (መነደድ? not to be confused with መናደድ "to anger"), but in the first person conjugation (as you put for Ge'ez and Tigrinya [? - doesn't Tigrinya have suffixes?], but not Amharic, misleadingly) would be ʔanäd(d?)ädalehu or ʔanäd(d?)ädä if put in the root like seemingly for Tigrinya.

earth - mədər - mədri - märet - Ignores "mədər" in Amharic meaning earth (märet means floor or ground, not earth).

By the way, I've just found that märet exists in Tigre (not Tigrinya) as märet and in Ge'ez as maret as well (meaning "earth (not "the Earth), dust, or dirt - same in Amharic). Confirming my suspiscions that it was from a different group (see Leslau on Ge'ez pg. 361). It also exists in Argobba as märet, so it's unlikely to be a loan word.

knee - bərk - bərki - gulbät - Ignores "berekek" or በረከከ (to kneel) in Amharic.

small - nəʔus - nuʔus - ṭənnəš - Edit: Actually the bellow is wrong (probably cognate with Arabic ānəssa). "nəʕus" - pronounced nəʔus - (I think you meant ʕ not ʔ in your root) means small (plural nəʕusan, so obviously inherited from Ge'ez - possibly taken directly, but not necessarily). Possibly the same root, but there's also a form "ʔanesteña" or አነስተኛ meaning small, with "teña" (or eña?) being an adjective marker (i.e. ʔanes(t?)).

black - q'älim - q'älim - ṭəqur - "Q'äläm" is "color" in Amharic (black->colored->color?) - a meaning shift with "ṭəqur" from a different root.

"Bone," "water," "dog" (although it's the same as in Ge'ez in Gonder, but that's more likely due to loaning from Tigrinya or Ge'ez), "ear," "white," and perhaps "liver" (? bigger shift than usual) are the ones that are from a completely different root, but not necessarily a non-Ge'ez one.

I'm not saying that you are intentionally misleading others. I'm simply saying that some of your comparisons are not apt.

Yom 06:24, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Classification again

I'd like to add a couple of the most recent classification systems to the above table and slightly to rearrange it. Both new schemes are taken from future L.Ye. Kogan's article "Semitic languages" in Semitic volume of Russian-language encyclopedia "Languages of the World".

Languages	Faber (Hetzron 1997)	Ethnologue 2004	Kogan 2006	Militarev 2004	Beyer	source unknown
Akkadian	East Semitic	not classified	East Semitic	East Semitic	East Semitic	North Peripheral
Eblaite				not classified	North Semitic
Aramaic	West Semitic /Central Semitic /Northwest Semitic	Central/Aramaic	W>C>Aramaic	W>C>Levantine	West Semitic	North Central
Ugaritic		not classified	W>C>Canaan	W>C>Levantine
Canaanite		Central/South		W>C>Levantine
Arabic	West Semitic /Central Semitic /Arabic		W>C>N. Arabian	W>C>Arabic	South Semitic	South Central
Ancient North Arabian		not classified		not classified
Old South Arabian (Sayhadic)	West Semitic /South Semitic /Western	not classified	W>C>OSA	W>C>Levantine		South Peripheral
Ethiopic		South/Ethiopian	W>Ethiosemitic	W>Ethiopian
Eastern South Arabian	West Semitic /South Semitic /Eastern	South /South Arabian	W>Modern South Arabian	South Semitic

The first one ("Kogan") follows the main classifications based on morphological innovations (like Huehnergard and Hetzron) with the slightly different labels and the following main distinction: South Semitic is treated as three different groups – Old South Arabian (OSA) as a part of Central Semitic and Ethiopic and Modern South Arabian (MSA) as two separate groups within West Semitic.

There are explanations for such a decision: the only two innovations usually used to support South Semitic unity are explained as archaism (retention of "old imerfect *yV-CaC(C)VC as opposed to the innovative Central Semitic *yV-CCVC-u) and areal feature (generalization of -k- in Suffix Conjugation Verbs, found also in Arabic dialects of South Arabia). The main reason for including of OSA in Central Semitic is their common innovation in verbal system (shown by N. Nebes in 1994): replacement of disyllable imperfect stem -CaC(C)VC- with monosyllable stem -CCVC-.

The second scheme ("Militarev", based on his presentation in 2004 and more early works like Militarev 2000) is based on completely different methodology – lexicostatistics. Time scale apart it gives usually interesting results for pure classification especially in cases with little or no evident phono- or morphologic innovations (like Semitic). The main differences are:

• MSA is treated as independent branch of Semithic;
• OSA is included in Central Semitic.

Also I added a "Faber" based on Alice Faber article in Hetzron 1997 which is in fact summarizing of Hetzron, Huehnergard and others' efforts. So first three colums are essentially one scheme developed in time and I left only one in the table.

Some slight rearrangements in the teable are: I added Old South Arabian (Sabaean+), corrected Arabic -> Arabian (exc. Arabic proper) and added some colours to easier comparison.

So in view of the aforesaid I think the more appropriate Semitic tree sould be like that:

Eastern Semitic – Akkadian, Eblaite

West Semitic

• Central Semitic
  • Northwest Semitic (Levantine)
    • Aramaic
    • Ugaritic
    • Canaanite
  • North Arabian (Arabic)
    • Ancient North Arabian
    • Arabic proper
  • Old South Arabian (Sayhadic)
• Ethiopic (Ethiosemitic)
• Eastern South Arabian (Modern South Arabian)

I'd like to change the classification in the article but decided first to put it here. And I think it would be better to delete detailed listing of Semitic dialects and languages in this scheme, especially Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic and Ethiopic varieties.

I hope it would be useful to give full reference for all those schemes:

• Faber A. Genetic Subgrouping of the Semitic Languages // R. Hetzron (ed.). The Semitic Languages. London, 1997.
• Hetzron R. Two Principles of Genetic Reconstruction. Lingua 38 (1976), pp. 89-108.
• Huehnergard J. A Grammar of Akkadian. Atlanta, 1997.
• Huehnergard J. Languages of the Ancient Near East // The Ancor Bible Dictionary, vol. 4. 1992. Pp. 155–170.
• Militarev A.. Towards the Chronology of Afrasian (Afroasiatic) and its Daughter Families. Time Depth in Historical Linguistics. Cambridge, 2000. Pp. 267-307.
• Militarev А., Kogan L. Semitic Etymological Dictionary. Vol. I. Anatomy of Man and Animals. Münster, 2000. Vol. II. Animal Names. Münster, 2005.
• Nebes N. Zur Form der Imperfektbasis des unvermehrten Grundstammes im Altsüdarabischen. (Festschrift Ewald Wagner zum 65 Geburtstag) // Semitische Studien unter besonderer Berücksichtigung der Südsemitistik / Hrsg. von W. Heinrichs und G. Schöler. Beirut; Stuttgart, 1994, Bd. 1., P. 59–80.

Koryakov Yuri 23:29, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I changed the number of Amharic speakers to 26 million from 17 based on census data (1994 census shows 32% speak Amharic as a first language, which would be 24 million for today's population of 73-4 million in Ethiopia) plus the estimated 2 million speakers of Amharic in the diaspora. I'm assuming 2nd language speakers aren't to be included (it would be more difficult, anyway, since I've not seen an accurate number, but estimates ranging from usually 40% to 60% of Ethiopia's population).

Thank you, Koryakov Yuri, for your work on this. I tried to do something on this subject a long while back. You might be interested to look at Linguasphere's pages on Semitic, whilst not covering the diachronic spectrum of Semitic language, it has some statistical analysis. The main thrust of your reading, as presented here, seems to be the placement of OSA. It certainly seems to stand on the 'dotted' boundary between Central and South Semitic. And this is not a new development, Arabic proper has been considered on both sides of the divide. The primary divisions of West Semitic languages are not clear at all: different methods produce different results. We have two core groups — a NW Semitic (Levantine) group and the Ethiopic group — that are fairly established (in relation to other groupings): the relationship of North and South Arabian languages with each other and these groups is complicated. However, I would dispute Militarev's emphasis of Modern South Arabian as a totally distinct, first-order branch of the Semitic language family. That seems both linguistically an over-reaction to methodology and historically and demographically highly unlikely. Also, his placement of OSA not just near but in NW Semitic just seems to be unreal: as I'm based in Aramaic, OSA isn't that familiar. Apart from these major problems with Militarev's system, the other vaguaries of classification I could live with. --Gareth Hughes 14:23, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Thank for attention, Gareth (or Hughes?). I certainly know the Linguasphere Register's treatment of Semitic since I've extensively worked on and discussed about it with its author, David Dalby and even produced new version for Caucasus geozone. BTW treat Semitic as three coordinating groupings of 2nd level (chains in DD terminology): Canaanitic, Modern South Arabian and Ethio-Semitic (considering non-inclusion of completely dead branches like Akkadian and Sayhadic).

But turning back to Semitic classification - I don't stick to Militarev's views and have provided his scheme just for info. What I wanted to attract attention to is Kogan's variant who argues (on base of tradional innovations' method) for the independent position of MSA within West Semitic and placement of OSA to Central Semitic (on one level with NW and SC Semitic) and so for the absence of single South Semitic. Koryakov Yuri 19:09, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Yuri (I'm Gareth), thank you for your illumination of Linguasphere: being in a set with chains and nets often makes me think of escapology! I do not have a problem with Kogan's analysis. It basically does away with the awkward South Semitic grouping, reducing it to its three basic components, linking OSA into an enlarged Central Semitic group (as long as its not implanted directly into Northwest Semitic, I can live with that), and leaving Ethiopic and NSA as separate branches of the big West Semitic group. I think, in general, we should to stick to Huenergard analysis as the prime informant to Wikipedia articles as it is more generally accepted, albeit with reservations. Well-considered systems, like Kogan's, could be mentioned to supplement this. I would like to hear Mustafaa's views on this too, but he only comes around every once in a while now. --Gareth Hughes 11:08, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I suggest the so called Ethio-semitic language be renamed as `Abyssian Semitic language´. This name will save us from political baises. Moreover, in my view it is wrong to call the ´Geez´script Ethiopic - how can we name an ancestor after its offspring?

-129.177.236.167

How does Ethio-semitic hold any biases? They are semitic languages, and they are found in Ethiopia. If you're insinuating (as some ignorant southern separatists often do), that Ethiopia was not used to refer to northern Ethiopia, think again. In Ezana's Chronicles, an inscription of his shows up in SA, Greek, and Ge'ez. When naming the tribes over which he has dominion, he names on called Habashat in the Ge'ez and SA (Sabaean) versions, but names it Aethiopia (I can do the A+e thing) in the Greek version; Habashat, Habesha, Abesha, and Abyssinia, have always refered to the northern part, and if it is equal to the Greek word Aethiopia (I'm not sure the exact ending, I just know it began with Aethiop- or something similar), then Aethiopia is not at all a misnomer for modern Ethiopia. Keep in mind that Abyssinia was not that widely used until the late 19th and early 20th centuries. There are many European texts that refer to Ethiopia (e.g. a certain French one refers to Ethiopie around the 16th or 17th century I believe) and not Abyssinia when referring to the same state that evolved into modern-day ethiopia. Regarding Ge'ez being called Ethiopic, I agree, but not for your reasons. A language need not be named after its country of origin; Ge'ez already has a language name, so there's no reason to give it a new name.

Yom 22:39, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Judæo-Aramaic language -- extinct

That is not true. While I do agree it will die within the next 50 years, but their are still Jews speaking their dialects. Actually, I had a Iraqi Jews sleep over my house last year, and I heard him speak it..really amazing. Again, their are still many old Jews in Israel that fled during the 60s and 70s from Iraq, that still speak the langauge, but in the end will die and they dont speak it with their children..rather they speak hebrew or english. Besides, their are still around 1000 Jews left in Northern Iraq. So maybe we should change the status for right now? Chaldean 23:27, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

MSA vs Classical

That these two are the same language is obvious to any speaker. That they differ in newly coined vocabulary (Taawila, Haasuub, Sawtiyyaat, fiilm...) and in some stylistic choices (tamma 'ilghaa' X...) is equally obvious, and is scarcely a controversial point. I don't see that there's anything here needing citing, although if there were, Kees Versteegh's The Arabic Language discusses some of the differences. - Mustafaa 10:36, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Article contains alot of errors and is too African-centric

I want to comment on the following sentences, which seem to me false and alot of original research, which according to Wikipedia rules WP:NOR is not allowed here:

• Since Semitic is a member of Afro-Asiatic, a principally African family, the first speakers of Proto-Semitic are generally believed to have arrived in the Middle East from Africa, in the 4th millennium BC, although this question is still much debated.

This is totally incorrect, or 100% orginal research. The origin of semitic languages and population is the arabian peninsula, not Africa. [1]

• With the emergence of Islam, the ascent of Aramaic was dealt a fatal blow by the Arab conquests, which made another Semitic language — Arabic — the official language of an empire stretching from Spain to Pakistan.

What about central Asia? The umayads caliphate borders extended till the borders of china. And they imposed Arabic on their ruled Area. Specially after the battle of talas between the arabs and china, and after the scientific renaseince becasue of the abbasid caliphate, the arab culture, relgion, and language was imposed there. They werent completly arabized, but the lingu franca was definatly arabic, not persian or turkish.

• Its spread among the masses took much longer; however, as natives abandoned their tongues for Arabic and as Bedouin tribes settled in conquered areas, it became the language of not only central Arabia, but also Yemen, the Fertile Crescent, and Egypt.

Now, this is 101% incorrect. How can Yemen be not arabic??!! With all respect to whoever entered this, this is a joke!. Yemen's spoke arabic, only in a different dialect then the mecca's arabic. What we call today Arabi al-fusha (high arabic), is simply the accent that the quraish tribe(the main inhabitants of mecca) spoke. The greatest EVER pre-islamic arab poet was Imru' al-Qais, with his fullname امرؤ القيس بن حجر بن الحارث الكندي , from the kinda tribe, was a YEMENI!!! He was acknowledged as the most distinguished poet of pre-Islamic times by the Prophet Muhammad, and by 'Ali, the fourth caliph. He was so great that some people during the life time of mohammad and until today, think that some parts of the quran(the master peice of arabic language) were actually copied from Him!! And there were many other famous pre-islmaic arab poets from yemen. Even the main inhabitatents of medina(in saudia arabia) were the aws and khazerk,two yemeni arab tribes. So how in this world can it be that yemeni's didnt speak arabic???!! The yemeni's are the aborginal arabs, agreed by all genealogist, even by the famous 13th century historian Ibn Khaldun. With all respect, but all is needed is to open a 4th grade history school book to know that fact. Its true that their are minorites in yemen, until today that speak ancient south arabian languages(e.g. in al-mahra and soqotra), but these are very tiny, isolated minorites.And its a proven fact that they arent in the first place arabs, but rather people that immigrated from the horn of africa. Hence, their african look and dark skin.

This whole article contains alot alot of errors, and is tooooo african-centric. jidan 22:49, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Afro-Asiatic isn't principally African now? Give me a break. Semitic is in fact the only branch of Afro-Asiatic found outside of Africa. All the others only exist within Africa, and there's plenty of evidence pointing to an African origin of Proto-Semitic (i.e. the original semitic language).

With regards to Yemen, there were plenty of Yemenis who didn't speak Arabic. Namely those who spoke Sabaean (and related languages) and Western South Arabian (whose sucessors are modern SA languages), which still exist in Yemen (including Socotra) and Oman today. This isn't a question of ethnicity. Certain Yemeni tribes are indeed considered "the original Arabs," but that doesn't mean that all Yemenis spoke Arabic. I'm sure that some nomadic tribes in the fertile crescent (and perhaps Egypt) spoke Arabic, but that doesn't mean that large populations did not change their language from a different one to Arabic. South Arabian languages are not dialects of Arabic! If they migrated from the Horn of Africa, then does that make them not Yemeni? If so, then all of Yemen's history from the 10th c. BC (and before) up to the 6th & 7th centuries AD was the history of Africans from the horn (just in case this is misconstrued, I'm refering to Out of Africa). Their dark skin means nothing, too. Ramzi Binalshibh looks like a Horn of African (but I don't think he's one of those minorities) — does that mean he's not Yemeni?

By the way, the Britannica link says nothing about the homeland of Semitic languages. Your edits also removed some of the diacritics (e.g. kitāb became kitab). I am reverting them for now.

Yom 04:34, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry about the diacritics. Ok, since my explantions didn't help. According to Wikipedia:Verifiability, anything you enter in an article must be verfiable. And must adhere to Wikipedia:Reliable sources, Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. So can you please provide the sources for those edits you made? [2],[3]

And I certainly want to see the source that says yemeni's didn't speak an accent of Arabic prior to islam. All sources listed in the main article were not entered by the same user who made this rather strange claim. jidan 11:03, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Not only did the Yemenis not speak Arabic, several tribes still don't - Mehri, Soqotri, etc. The old South Arabian language was related to Arabic, of course, but no more closely than Hebrew. The Yemenis being Arabs has nothing to do with whether they did or did not speak the language we now call Arabic - the Franks, for example, didn't speak French... - Mustafaa 23:49, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

True. It's closer to Ge'ez actually, which is obviously not a dialect of Arabic (actually most 'dialects' of Arabic are different enough to be considered different languages). What type of citation do you need, Jidan? I can provide some saying that Sabaeans spoke South Arabian (note: not South Arabic) or Sabaean, and the like, but I can't prove that no Yemenis spoke Arabic, if that's what you're asking (actually, the burden of proof that Yemenis spoke Arabic [which I'm sure some did through contact in the north] is on you, as that is an assertion and it has no citations in the article). Just ask me what proof you need, specifically, Jidan. Sorry for forgetting about this argument.

ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk 00:24, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

The distinction between accent and language, is very hard. As I said, what we call today "arabi al-fusha"(high arabic), is nothing but the arabic accent of the quraish tribe. So it was based on a tribe, not a state. And here is the major difference! Because then we would have to say that the quraysh tribe are the only people that spoke arabic, the rest was arabized! And this is nonsense. Arab people(in the Arabian peninusla, al-sham, iraq) had all the same core language but different accents. The yemeni merchants certainly didn't talk with the merchants of mecca using greek or persian!! And some of the greatest pre-islamic poets came from yemen, syria, iraq. Very important to mention is that the kaaba in mecca was holy for ALL arab tribes. And lets not forget the trading between each other, So the arab tribes were not isolated between each other, and knew how to communicate with each other using a basic language.And this basic language was not greek, persian, hebrew, aramian, gee'z or whatever.....It was simply Arabic! ;-)... only with different accents. Jidan 12:27, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Dear Friends: The chief danger to Allowing Linguists to Define the Word Semite Historically, is that they are in way over their heads, History-wise. Many of their rediculous statements seem to point to Arabia & Mesopotamia as the Origin of both the Semitic languagers and the Semites themselves. Nothing could be further from the truth....

Semites originated in the region of Armenia, not Arabia, and the Concept of the Term Semite is More Correctly Defined as those Descendants & Ancestors of Noah, including their First Known Tribal sources, Adam & Eve. (The HAWWA...the Children of Eve...from this ancient Tribe of Hayastans, came Cain, Abel, Seth, and then Noah, his three sons and Abraham the Patriarch ... None of these came from Africa... No other people are Semites...The Arabs are Hybrids..of at least 8 nations, and are only Fractionally Invested with Hebrew Genetics...

Arabs have mixed with these Hebrews: (1) Abraham - only Ishmael (2) Esau who was exiled, and joined his uncle Ishmael. (3) Lot the Nephew of Abraham & his Daughters whom escaped from the disasterous Volcanic destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah, and settled in the region of Moab. No other Arab-Hebrew Mixtures can be proved ...and these are not Semites...they are simply Hybrids...Linguists shouldn't write historical articles...they are full of crap!

Linguists and their idiotic categorizations are Suspect, in every mis-identified, revised history and Politically Correct agenda known today.

Best regards,

Don Tipton - Writer

Dear Don Tipton — Writer — the word Semitic is used in number of different ways. However, the only scientific use of the term is the linguistic one, and therefor the linguists understanding of the term is the only one of any scientific merit. The Semitic languages are a group of genetically related languages of common origin. This does not suggest anything about those who speak them. The notions you outline above have no scientific basis. — Gareth Hughes 11:54, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Don, the linguists you're talking aren't writing about the history of peoples but about the history of languages. You're mistake is that you're confusing the two. Lots of people, even whole communities, tribes, kingdoms, and so on, now and throughout history, didn't speak the same language as their ancestors. If linguists shouldn't be "allowed" to write what you consider to be history, certainly non-linguists shouldn't be "allowed" to make ignorant claims about languages. (I put "allowed" in quotes because of course anyone is allowed to say whatever they want, though no one is required to listen to nonsense.)

Afro-Asiatic may or may not be "principially African" (whatever that means, by the same reasoning, I suppose, the Germanic languages must be classified as "principially American"), but this isn't the Afro-Asiatic article, it's the Semitic article, and Semitic isn't "principially African" at all. The commonly assumed Urheimat of Semitic is the Arabian peninsula. Pre-Semitic migration might have taken Pre-Semites from the Horn of Africa to Arabia, but that evidently falls out of the scope of this article. dab (ᛏ) 21:15, 29 July 2006 (UTC)