Talk:Russian Empire

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Livers (talk | contribs) at 21:43, 4 August 2006 (→‎Gerb). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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22.4 Mio km^2 are not 1/3 of earth's land mass. Earth's land mass is 148.3 Mio km^2. So either it's 44.5 Mio. km^2 or almost 1/6 of earth's land mass.


Map

I'd like someone to find a map of Imperial Russia. I'm sure the territory it covered was huge! --Cogent 03:16, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Indeed it was. May be a little later, but generous Tev has provided us with one. Эйрон Кинни (t) 07:59, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Russian Empire or Imperial Russia?

Why is the title "Imperial Russia" and not the "Russian Empire" like it was listed in the Russian history index originally? It seems to me merely to be the differences in emphasis on the nation and the type. Somebody may one day do a Chinese Empire instead of Imperial China, or the other way around. Consistency, if necessary, would be nice. --Menchi 20:53 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)

There's a subtle difference between 'Russian Empire' and 'Imperial Russia'. The latter term IMHO emphasizes the fact that this is a phase of history, and that Russia became imperial, whereas China is called an empire throughout most of its history. I also think that the modern sense of 'empire' as 'a nation that rules over others' isn't so strong in the adjectival form. So I think the present form should stay. --Smack 19:34, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Russian Empire is a literal translation of official country name in 1721-1917. Imperial Russia is a vague term reflecting, in its most vast sense, the period of 1480-1991, when the policy of Russian rulers was imperial. Dr Bug  (Volodymyr V. Medeiko) 21:35, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I don't think that the Russian hegemony in the USSR can or should be described as "imperial" or as an "empire". Such a terminology seems both pretentious and reminds of McCarthyism. --Joy [shallot] 13:59, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
1480-1991 clearly exceeds the scope of this article. It is not about Muscovy, neither does it deal with the Soviet Union. Therefore Russian Empire seems to be the only reasonably subject. --Johannes Rohr 21:01, 18 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I would prefer this article to be moved back to Russian Empire.  "Imperial Russia" is meaningless.  And Soviet Union, although being sometimes named "Soviet Empire", never was named "Russian Empire". — Monedula 16:32, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Imperial Russia is also wrong in the sense that the Russian Empire consisted of far more than modern Russia, think of Alaska, Finland, most of historical Poland and most of the later Soviet Union. Is there anyone opposing this? Else I would move this article back within seven days from now.--Johannes Rohr 14:03, 18 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Map, Coat of Arms?

Crossposted from Wikipedia_talk:Wikiportal/Russia:

Imperial Russia is a navigational article that refers to four articles that correspond to four periods of the Russian History between the end of 17th and beginning of the 20th century. Each of these articles is very good and I don't think it is a good idea to try to move the info from them back to Imperial Russia article. These historic articles are in a great shape, especially if compared to many important ru-related topics. -Irpen 02:48, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)

I still think what Imperial Russia article can be improved a lot...there is no map, no coat of arms etc., nothing comparable to articles on Ottoman, German or Austro-Hungarian empires. (Fisenko 02:52, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC))
Agreed, let's just make sure that we don't mean moving the text on history from one of four narrower articles. Irpen 03:09, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)

"Flag 1914-1917" is damn wrong. It was never used as an official flag, Nicholas II only authorised anyone who wished so to fly that flag personally, as it purported to symbolise the union between the country (tricolour) and the royal family (coat of arms). The reason for this innovation was to boost morale during WWI.

Map Again

The map of imperial Russia in 1913 is wrong. The territory covered may be right, but other countries have incorrect boundaries. In particular, the Ottoman empire covered most of the Near East, Alsace-Lorraine was part of Germany, not of France at that time, and the Austrian empire is missing.

I suspect this map to come from a modern one.

Images

the congestion of many pics of different sizes and shapes at the top of the page gives it an extremely ugly appearance. In the past I tried to change this, but was reverted. People, what's wrong with your eyes? mikka (t) 18:49, 9 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox

I've created an infobox for this page, located at Template: Imperial Russia infobox, but I can't seem to get it to integrate properly into the article. If anyone wants to look over it and see if they can get it to work properly, they're welcome to. Tev 19:45, 20 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I had to play with it a bit but I seem to have made the bloody little thing work right. Tev 15:35, 23 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Keep it here or switch?

It seems the previous consensus was to move this article to Russian Empire, which I personally agree with. Provided noone has any objections by the day after tomorrow, I'm going to ask an admin to switch 'em around. Tev 15:37, 23 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Also move-protected. —Nightstallion (?) 10:50, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Flag

From 1883 to 1917 the official flag of the Russian Empire is described by many sources as Image:Flag of Russia.svg, but the article has a different flag featured in the infobox. So which is it? Эйрон Кинни (t) 20:41, 4 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The flag that was/possibly will be again be used was that of the Romanov Dynasty, and was the flag previously listed on this page as that of the Empire. I'd personally say go with that, but it says in your edit that you found this other flag being used at the Finnish wikipedia? If that's the case then, as it is a feautred article, perhaps we should use it. I'm more than open to discussion, but if you don't object I'll change it back to what it was, since that is what it was originally listed as. As a side note, if you speak any Finnish it would be a big help if you could translate some of that article and bring it over here. This article is woefully inadequate, and while I'm trying to bulk it up a bit, I need to do much more research before I'll be able to do a whole lot. Tev 22:10, 4 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]


The abdication

The abdication was to Mikhail, and Mikhail declared that he will not rule until the Constitutional Assemly gathered and ordered the Provisional government to rule. The state officially continued being empire.--Nixer 16:17, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The end of the Empire is generally regarded to have been upon the abdication of Nikolay II, as upon his abdication his brother refused the crown, and the rule of the Tsats was over. While it may not have been technically over, that's up to the reader to decide, the Romanovs had no say in the government after that. Tev 03:57, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Reverted changes

As I tried to explain in my edit, this article is not up to code. I took the information with the intention of editing it to make it into something unique. I'd think that if someone is looking for information on the Russian Empire, however, they would be looking at this page, rather than going to History of Russia. Regardless, I'm happy to leave it at this and slowly try to add information if that's what's preferable on Wikipedia. Tev 16:07, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please don't try to duplicate information contained in other articles, especially by pillaging them. I came to this page to find a link to Russian history, 1682-1796 and was surprized that it was gone. Therefore, please don't remove links to main articles either. You may add a short summary of each article here, provided that the links to the main articles remain. You may want to check History of Russia to see how it may be effected. --Ghirla -трёп- 16:11, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Addition of Russian Name and transliteration

I just added the Russian name of the Empire, "Российская империя" and its transliteration to the intro sentence, exactly following the style that Russia uses in its intro sentence. Hope this is helpful? T. S. Rice 07:03, 3 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Gerb

Discussion regarding a revert war episode her, moved from my talk page:


"State Seal" is U.S. terminology for its states. All other country's emblem are traditionally called "coat of arms, although they often don't follow the rules of european heraldry. It is not the firt time in various languages that some words acquire new meanings. `'mikka (t) 17:32, 30 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In fact these were called "Большая государственная печать" and "Малая государственная печать" - Big State Seal and Minor State Seal respectively.--Nixer 17:35, 30 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I think there was change in terminology. I see that since Alexey Mikhailovich the term "gosudarstvenny gerb" was used. In National emblem of Belarus, the article author used the term "national emblem" to translate the term "gos. gerb", which, as I see, is suggested by some russian dictionaries. What do you think about this option?
Oliversi & bonaqua blocked. `'mikka (t) 17:38, 30 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I think it is good synonim both for seal and coat of arms. I support even idea to change all such words to the universal term "emblem".--Nixer 18:24, 30 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
In fact these are the State Emblems - Big and Small Coats of Arms of the Russian Empire's. See http://geraldika.ru/symbols/29 and http://geraldika.ru/symbols/1368. Here it is precisely written Big and Small Coats of Arms of the Russian Empire's--Oliversi1 18:31, 30 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Various chaotic links prove nothing. http://russia.rin.ru/cgi-bin/guide_e.pl?id=4669 says "State Emblem". `'mikka (t) 19:30, 30 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]


I suggect to discuss this. Similar issue: articles National emblem of Belarus and Coat of arms of the Soviet Union say these things are not coats of arms.

Histgorically, times ago, Russia had "state seal" ("pechat") and "coat of arms" ("shchit") among state symbols. Later "gerb" was used, which is clearly not "shchit".

So I guess it is time to invoke reputable sources in Russian geraldry, rather than quotations from variuous amateurish websites. `'mikka (t) 19:41, 30 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

mikka thank you for Big and Small Coats of Arms of the Russian Empire's. Now it is correct. Even on the site - СЕРВЕР НАЦИОНАЛЬНОГО ИНСТИТУТА ГЕРБА И ФЛАГА, ГЕРАЛЬДИЧЕСКИЙ СОВЕТ при Президенте РФ http://sovet.geraldika.ru/ write so. If you want to see it, put "Большой герб Российской империи or Малый герб Российской империи" in the search of these site and you can read this.--Oliversi1 17:08, 31 July 2006 (UTC) (this user is an established sockpuppet. +Hexagon1 (t) 10:10, 3 August 2006 (UTC))[reply]

The state symbols of the Russian Empire were defined in the Corpus of Laws of the Russian Empire: [1] (chapter 61). There was one gerb and three state seals (Big, Medium and Small)--Nixer 13:50, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for proper research. Indeed, the Russian Empire Coat of Arms is a regular escutcheon type and placed in the centre of the State Seal. (I started State symbols of Russian Empire, to close the issue for long) `'mikka (t) 15:51, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I think this article should be linked there or that article merged here.--Nixer 18:18, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
See http://www.russianempire.ru/constitution.php, http://www.russianempire.ru/symbols.php, http://www.russianempire.ru/symbols.php, http://derzava.ru/simvolika/

Also on the site - СЕРВЕР НАЦИОНАЛЬНОГО ИНСТИТУТА ГЕРБА И ФЛАГА, ГЕРАЛЬДИЧЕСКИЙ СОВЕТ при Президенте РФ http://sovet.geraldika.ru/ write "Большой герб Российской империи or Малый герб Российской империи" - it is an official SERVER of NATIONAL INSTITUTE of the ARMS And FLAG, HERALDIC ADVICE at the President of Russia.

http://www.monarchruss.org - it is a good site, but not official. Yes, in Russian empire were Big and Small Coats of Arms and were three state seals (Big, Medium and Small). It is natural that State Seals had the form of Coats of Arms. Now too in all countries in the world the state seal is a copy of the State Emblem or has it. But the state symbols in all countries in the world are - a State Flag, a State Hymn and a State Coats of Arms and sometimes the State Motto. The State Seal is not a primary symbol of the states. It is an indirect or secondary symbol. In all clauses in wikipedia about the countries and the states in the table about the given country specified only a Flag, a Hymn and a Coats of Arms and sometimes the motto, but not State Seal.--Livers 21:43, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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