Wikipedia talk:Orthodox Rabbinical Biography Collaboration of the Week

THIS TEMPLATE ON YOUR HOME PAGE

It would be much appreciated if you could place the template below on your home or discussion pages, to raise awareness and pique interest in the Collaboration. Many thanks.

Template:ORBCOTW {{ORBCOTW}}

Sourcing

It seems to me that these collaboration can only be successful if there are many sources for these article ( preferably online). Otherwise it would be very hard for the uninformed to add anything of value. Perhaps this should be a major criterion for which articles to focus on.Jon513 18:03, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Um...I somehow messed up all of the other nominations, including my own for Rabbi Hershel Schachter. I haven't figured out how to fix the article. Someone please re-insert the other nominations. --Yodamace1 18:43, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Done. Nesher 19:09, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

No rush

Can I just point out that there is no rush to add names to this list - all can be worked upon in good time. I think we should stick with the current candidates and stop adding too many more names to the list - otherwise none will gain the 5 votes needed. Nesher 19:15, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Expanding the Purview of this Collaboration

Copied from User talk:Nesher#collaboration of the week by Nesher.

First of all - good idea. There's a lot of pages in there that need work. I was thinking though - maybe we should broaden the scope a little to "rabbinic collaboration of the week". That way we could include some people from the middle ages, as well as the eras of the mishnah and talmud. Broadening our cope would hopefully also broaden the number of people working on the project. Just a thought. --Bachrach44 15:44, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

I would love to broaden the scope - except how do we ensure Reform (and other non-Orthodox) people don't get nominated? Nesher 15:49, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Call it "Frum Rabbis Biography Collaboration of the Week Project". :) --רח"ק | Talk 06:33, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

So what if they do? You and I might not be able to contribute as much to some rabbis as others, but I think that's true no matter what scope we have. (For example, I can contribute a lot more to an article on Avi Weiss than I can to one on Karelitz.) Wikipedia is inherently a collaborative environment, and getting more people to edit more pages is almost always a good idea. --Bachrach44 15:57, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

If we broaden it too much, the focus becomes lost and we may have nominations that are completely a waste of time. Still, I'm cautiously hopeful that we can expand the collaboration to what you suggest. To do that, we must first find an editor like IZAK or someone else to move the page to "Rabbinic Collaboration of the Week" and edit it a little. But remember - before this we'll have to open this up to discussion and other's user's opinions and inputs - so I will copy this discussion to the talk page here. Kind regards, Nesher 16:07, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

I was browsing the COTW pages and this one caught my eye because it seemed awfully specific - which is not a bad thing, but it narrows the field of potential candidates and contributors. It might be beneficial to make this either the Rabbinic (general) COTW or (Orthodox) Judaism COTW. It looks active as it is, but that's something to keep in mind. Moulder 01:47, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

3 new nominees

I think we should remove the three new additions by anon w/o explanation. I don't know who these are - does anyone else? I think ORBCW should be limited to current stubs, not redlinks. R' Shachter can be grandfathered. Agree? - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 03:33, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm not so sure about those new nominees - but we shouldn't delete them. This is, after all, wikipedia and democratic voting elects these candidates. If there is enough support, they'll be the Col. of the Week and if they don't have two votes by the week's end, they'll be removed. Simple. Also, I don't agree that we should limit this to existing articles. There are literally hundreds of worthwhile articles on this subject that need, and should be encouraged, to be started. Nesher 12:14, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

2 Strikes or 3?

Just thinking, shall we up the votes an article needs to remain listed to 3 or leave it at 2? If we raise the bar, they'll be less cluttering articles hanging around. Its an idea... Nesher 09:56, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Support, and eliminate the five votes to be chosen requirement. The highest vote getter should be picked among the qualified proposals, even if it only has four. - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 12:17, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree with CrazyRussian. Ayinyud 14:05, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Wouldn't that encourage apathy and mean that on a bad week, an article with 2 or even 1 vote becomes "the" colloboration? Virtually all the other collaborations (I've basd this one on many of them) have a minimum threshold of 5 votes. Nesher 16:48, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

No, 3 votes minimum - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 16:49, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

If you want to, then do it... Nesher 18:21, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Adding nominations

I was trying to figure out how to add a nomination but I couldn't do it and every time I hit preview the entire page looked funny. So can some add nominations for Rabbi Oscar Z. Fasman and Rabbi Shmuel Salant?

I'll do it Motzei Shabbos bli neder. - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 21:47, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm gonna add them right now. Why don't you tell us a bit about both in the comments, esp. R' Fasman, whom I have never heard of. - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 16:10, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Skokie Yeshiva named their high school for him: http://www.htcnet.edu/WEB/fasmanYeshiva/Index.htm

Adding to the Tools Section

Should we add a subpage where wikipedians put down their names as official members of the ORBCW? Alternatively this could just serve as a central database of wikipedians known to be interested in the subject and they could be contacted on their discussion pages to vote when the need arises. Many thanks, Nesher 13:22, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

PS: This weeks collab. is Rabbi Isser Zalman Meltzer - it beat out Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (at the moment the shoe-in for next weeks collab. unless it gets outvoted) by only 4 hours and 44 minutes... Your vote makes a difference!

Abaye

People, Abaye is a copyvio from the OU. Does anyone want to put together a non-copyvio stub for him sometime soon? I am a little swamped between the new job and the RfA, so I cannot do it myself. - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 17:57, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

"Ultra-Orthodox"

People, please don't use Ultra-Orthodox, a term I lifted out of the Sonnenfeld article this morning. This is a term I despise, a term used by American papers whenever they want to pain frum Jews as unacceptably too religious, an offensive term. Just use Haredi, which is what Ultra-Orthodox redirects to, anyway. - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 12:50, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Why do you have to ask? The unilateral decision to obliterate virtually any mention of 'ultra-orthodox' on wp is quite amazing given that this project is supposed to be NPOV. In fact, I myself find the term Haredi to be on one hand offensive and on the other hand arrogance. Who decided that dressing in black pants with a white shirt means you are Haredi? I know many other kinds of Jews who are also 'Haredi' = God-fearing people. Haredi is also a hebrew term. --Shuki 17:22, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

My unilateral decision? I was extremely upfront about it, and nobody has called me on it yet. As to the black pants thing, I am not sure what you mean. R' Sonnenfeld was obviously Chareidi - there's no argument about that - and it has no bearing on non-black-pants people (read: me too) being G-d-fearing or not. - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 17:25, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

BTW, in bona fides, I believe that to obliterate "U-O" is to further NPOV. - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 17:26, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Finally, U-O is present in redirects and is mentioned on the Haredi Judaism article as an alternative term. That is enough. - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 17:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Past decisions not to use the term Ultra-Orthodox

User:Crzrussian is 100% correct! Please note: That over the years there have been discussions (see early talk pages of Haredi Judaism and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism) whereby a consensus has been established on Wikipedia for quite a while NOT to use the term "Ultra-Orthodox" anywhere on Wikipedia because it is rightly considered to be a pejorative term, especially by most Jews who would be classed as "Ultra-Orthodox" by others who use this dark term. The term is constantly used in a derogatory way in the media and Wikipedia is not in the business of insulting anyone. On the other hand, in recent years a natural agreement and consenus has arisen in all spheres outside of Wikipedia that the word "Haredi" could and should be used peacefully without insulting anyone instead of the highly toxic "Ultra-Orthodox" nomenclature. The correct Wikipedia link is actually Haredi Judaism and the word "Haredi" alone simply redirects to there so technically speaking one should "dab" Haredi ([[Haredi Judaism|Haredi]]). The argument by User:Shuki that the word "Haredi" is just a Hebrew word and who is to say that it means if someone is "truly Haredi" or not, does not carry any weight because at this time the term has obtained acceptance as a NEUTRAL name, i.e. it's become a universal proper noun and proper name that all sides can live with peacefully without anyone's feelings being hurt and it's not about a "judgment" about anyone's yirat shamayim based on dress or anything else. By the same token one could argue that the word "Ultra" anything should never be used since one never hears the term applid to secular Jews who have married gentiles as being "Ultra-secular" or Reform Jews who hate any kind of Orthodoxy as being "Ultra-Reform" -- somehow only some of the Orthodox got "blessed" with the prefix "Ultra" being available as a verbal stab against them. Therefore please use Haredi Judaism when required and never use "Ultra-anything" because it's an offensive and misguided label that borders on being a "verbal hate crime" of sorts. Thank you, IZAK 09:47, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Hate crime is a little strong, but "never use Ultra-anything" is I matra I subscribe too. - CrazyRussian talk/email 12:11, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

R' Chaim Pinchas Scheinberg's picture

See my talk page. I asked a photo-genius acquaintance to work it through Photoshop to lighten it up, b/c it was taken in one of those huge old shuls with stained glass and one lightbulb. Which one of the three he produced do we like? - CrazyRussian talk/email 12:12, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I think, 75% sure, that 01 is the best -- Nesher 16:18, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I was gonna vote for #2, although #1 is my second choice. --Bachrach44 16:35, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Judaism

Dear everyone! I have created Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Judaism. Please put in on your watchlists, and please add relevant AfD's as you find them. Cheers. - CrazyRussian talk/email 14:07, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Previous Collaboration Features

This has been cross-posted from Crzrussian's talk page

I think I might have just had a brainwave. It revolves around the little icon at the top-right corner of Czrrussian's userpage, denoting that he is an admin. I was wondering if such a clever little feature can be devised and put on the pages of previous Orthodox Rabbinical Collaborations of the Week. This would be a great way spreading the ORBCW - and also an indicator of quality and that the article in question has undergone intense review and editing. Any ideas on how to create such a feature? Many thanks, Nesher 16:17, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

OK, I'll come up with something soon. Do we have a PD image of the luchos or something else approriate? - CrazyRussian talk/email 19:56, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Here's the code:

<div style="position:absolute; z-index:100; right:25px; top:25px;" class="metadata" id="former ORBCW collaboration">{{titled-click|link=Wikipedia:Orthodox Rabbinical Biography Collaboration of the Week|image=Star of David.svg|width=20px|height=25px|title=This article is a former ORBCW collaboration.}}</div>

See it here: User:Crzrussian/Sandbox. Like it? - CrazyRussian talk/email 19:08, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

It's visually pleasing, but seems to represent Judaism as a whole more than Orthodox rabbis. Is there anything more specific? Many thanks, Nesher 19:17, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Find me a PD picture to use, and I will put it in... Do we a have a classic Chofetz Chayim? - CrazyRussian talk/email 19:20, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Nu? - CrazyRussian talk/email 19:25, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Much better - sorry I've been busy editing this article. Let's do it! Oh, sorry to bother you last time - but can we make that into a template or it's not possible? -- Nesher 21:31, 27 June 2006 (UTC) -- Nesher

Savora

There is now an article on Savora about the Savoraim -- can anyone review it and add to it? Thanks. IZAK 11:05, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

User:RK

User:RK is a strong long-time editor who basically writes from a strong Conservative Judaism POV. Recently he has made some serious edits to the Talmud article. It would be instructive to see what he is writing and add your views to the article/s. Thank you. IZAK 11:11, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Kartchin (Hasidic dynasty)

OT: Before somebody decides to AfD this, can anyone please provide a source to cleanup-verify this article? Thanks. - CrazyRussian talk/email 14:01, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Kapparos

OT: Kapparos, rescued by me from WP:DEP this morning, needs sources. Thanks for your help. - CrazyRussian talk/email 15:15, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Been a Dead-end page since August 30, 2005! For shame, people! - CrazyRussian talk/email 16:08, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

added some references and a piece on the historic controversy. what else are you looking for? Rabbi-m 05:25, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

So do sefardim do it as well? Any sefardim here? - CrazyRougeian talk/email 05:49, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

my Moroccan and Syrian friends tell me it is practiced and that the Kaf Hachaim approves, so I added that in. Rabbi-m 05:25, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Pervasive style issues in ORB's

Telzer, Nesher, and everyone else: I am noticing certain pervasive style errors in many ORB's, namely:

1. Years should not be linked unless they are birth/death years in the leading para.
2. We should not be linking Yiddish nicknames for major cities of Europe, such as Dvinsk and Kovno. Shtetlach like Birz are OK, imo, b/c they're obscure, and the reader will likely have no clue. Dvinsk and Kovno exist as redirects, but it doesn't mean we should be linking to them. I suggest "Kovno (Kaunas)"; "Dvinsk (Daugavpils)", etc.
3. We should be careful to list the countries of these places, at least the modern-day, and, where necessary, both (e.g. "then-Poland, now-Ukraine"). And we should get them right. An American's first assumption is "it's in the Alte Heim, who cares what country it is now", but that's silly.

Thanks. - CrazyRussian talk/email 19:02, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

• Hi Crz, with all respect, I differ with your thinking in number 2. Just because these cities have alternate names now, does not mean we have to change our links accordingly. This is because:

1. The names referred to in the articles were in widespread use in the eras in which the subject(s) lived
2. Redirects are fine and quite a number of major cities have variations in name
3. Who are we to judge the names of these cities when what we are pronouncing is just an English name set by convention - in fact locals often have different names for their cities. I refer you to Names of European cities in different languages
4. Context is everything. When referring to Lithuanian politican Artūras Paulauskas, of course the correct and current term for his birthplace is "Vilnius". However, others like the Vilna Gaon and Rabbi Yisrael Salanter must be referenced under the term Vilna, since in their times that usage (or to be more exact the loshon "Wilno") was the norm
5. Finally your argument about small locations e.g. Birz and by extension I presume to include Slabodka, Telz, Vlozhin etc doesn't really hold water. We couldn't call it the "Slabodka yeshiva", rather " Vilijampole yeshiva" and we'd have to call the Volozhin yeshiva "Vałožyn". Many thanks, Nesher 19:36, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

• • Hmmm... an average non-Jewish reader need not have to click the name to find out the real location. If you write Dvinsk, you're needlessly Jewifying a non-Jewish name. "Dvinsk (Daugavpils)" achieves both purposes. As to Slabodka, Telz, etc., they're parts of proper names! And why can't we have "The Telz Yeshiva was founded in Telz (now Telsiai), Lithuania...", anyway? What would you say if an arab article said "Al-Aksa mosque is located in Al-Quds"? - CrazyRussian talk/email 19:53, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I happen to agree with both User:Nesher in this instance and some of User:Crzrussian points, because over the years there has been a problem that mostly non-Jewish editors from Poland, Russia, Ukraine, Belarus and Lithuania come along and heavy-handedly try to change these names in articles about famous rabbis in particular. These Polish/Russian/Ukrainian/Belarus/Lithuanian "purists" are either unfamiliar with, and don't care about, Jewish history or take delight in trampling the ancient and classical Jewish pronounciations of towns and places in Eastern Europe (which some of them claim is a "Judaization" of their history/culture). There is a solution to this, by noting both or more names, which is fair, the other solution is not merely to do redirects but by simple "dabbing" such as Vilna [[Vilnius|Vilna]] One can satisfy both Jewish and non-Jewish needs in this way. IZAK 10:36, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

OK. Beyond E.European purism, I think there's a value to total consistency. One name for the place, and everything else at most mentioned alongside. Be comfy in golus, rabbosai - don't let's start telling the umos ho'olam that their cities are named Vilna, Lemberg, Dvinsk etc. - CrazyRussian talk/email 10:45, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Crz: Sure, is Meir Simcha of Dvinsk now going to become Meir Simcha of Daugavpils? (since Dvinsk redirects to Daugavpils). Are you honestly suggesting that we should now be calling the Vilna Gaon as the Vilnius Gaon instead? Or if tomorrow Shneur Zalman of Liadi must be changed to Shneur Zalman of Liskaya because a Ukrainian editor will come along and tell us that the proper Slavic name for "Liadi" is "Liskaya" or "Lishkipoople" or something like that? Or that Category:Bobov Hasidism should henceforth be renamed to Category:Bobowa Hasidism? etc etc. It's obvious from these examples that Slavic editors cannot impose Slavic language codes and standards on articles that deal with Jewish topics, just as Jewish, Yiddish and Hebraic editors cannot and should not expect to impose what would in actual fact be a quite legitimate Yiddish or Jewish or Hebrew ethnic pronounciations of people and places in articles of a non-Jewish nature. IZAK 16:23, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Radin

Where is Radin? I was trying to figure out what Radin is called now, and I couldn't even find which country it's in: Lithuania, Belarus, or Poland? Internet searches led me nowhere. Can anyone clarify? I have to dig up that CD Rom I have, "Catching Sacred Letters". That ought to have it... - CrazyRussian talk/email 19:02, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

From what I understand, it was in Lithuania, then it was for a short period under Polish rule before World War Two, I'm almost sure that afterwards it became part of Russia. Which has got me thinking: Should we start an article for Rav Naphtali Trop (the GRANAT), the Rosh Yeshiva of Radin under the CC?--רח"ק | Talk 08:48, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Found it: [1] - CrazyRougeian talk/email 09:00, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Chaim Brovender

I think this Rov is NN, and I proposed {{prod}}. Anyone care to look it over and review? - CrazyRougeian talk/email 07:37, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

How long

How long are potential candidates for ORBCW supposed to stay on the voting list after not having won yet? Avi Weiss has been listed for a long time, and yet hasn't won a nomination. I think that after a few weeks things should be kicked off, otherwise every submission would be a ORBCW, it would just take some time. --רח"ק | Talk 08:41, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

citations

I put this on Talk:Aryeh_Levin, then realized it probably belongs here:

we are aiming for: Wikipedia:What is a featured article?

1. • (c) "factually accurate" includes supporting of facts with specific evidence and external citations (see Wikipedia:Verifiability); these include a "References" section where the references are set out, complemented where appropriate by inline citations (see Wikipedia:Citing sources). For articles with footnotes or endnotes, the meta:cite format is strongly encouraged;

So, please, use footnotes. IMHO, when summarizing from another source, like "Tzaddik in our Time," a single Harvard referencing citation at the end of each paragraph is a clear way to cite. the other two methods force you to look at the end of the page or at a balloon for the citation, and since they are all from the same source, all we rally are looking for is page number. Thus, the Harvard system seems clearest. Rabbi-m 03:11, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Great suggestion. Do it! - CrazyRougeian talk/email 03:20, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

It would be alot easier if the contributors adopted the practice as they are adding material, rather than backlinking later. Rabbi-m 03:37, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

to meet wiki standards, I think it shows there was research in putting together an article to keep footnoting, even where all of it comes from a single source. Rabbi-m 05:04, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

inline use of "Rabbi"

In Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies) the Subsequent uses of names says:

After the initial mention of any name, the person may be referred to by surname only.

I see that we tend to say "Reb Aryeh" or "Rabbi Levin." Is that within our "central aim of creating feature-standard articles?" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rabbi-m (talk • contribs)

I think we should just write Reb Aryeh, etc. We should write just like Artscroll does. Like the Yated writes. This is specifically about rabbonim, and our 'cultural' customs in these things are slightly different from those applying to general biographies in a secular context. --Daniel575 07:42, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

We discussed this to death at our very first collaboration. See Talk:Chaim Pinchas Scheinberg. - CrazyRougeian talk/email 10:46, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Aha, ok, I read the discussion. I am a newbie to wiki editing so I missed it. The consensus seems to be "put in 'Rabbi Levin' and leave it to some later non-frum wiki editor to later take them all out." If so, I will go along with that. (BTW, I was reading some pages on Islam like Tawhid and there are more "may peace and blessing be upon him" than wiki policy would dictate as well.;-) Rabbi-m 03:14, 12 July 2006 (UTC)