Wikipedia:Requests for mediation

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by VeryVerily (talk | contribs) at 04:10, 28 September 2004 (→[[User:VeryVerily|VeryVerily]] and [[User:Christiankavanagh|CK]]). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Part of Wikipedia:Dispute resolution

Please read the information in the "What is mediation?", before formally asking for mediation. Also, please be sure that you have followed the preliminary steps laid out in Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. You may also wish to consult the introductory page at Wikipedia:Mediation.

For more information

You may wish to consult the following introductory link before formally asking for mediation: Wikipedia:Mediation (what is mediation)

Requests for mediation

It is always preferable for both parties to the dispute to request mediation. If possible please agree between you to request mediation before adding a request to this page. However, if you feel unable to approach the other party or feel that a mediator is needed to get an agreement to mediation then please ask.

It's important that this page should not become a second version of Wikipedia:Conflicts between users.

Please do not edit this page directly if you are not a participant in a case. Relevant comments may be left on the Talk page, and will be read in full.

See #Archives for past requests.

Please place requests at the bottom of this section, and date your comment

VeryVerily and CK

Hi, I am a new Wikipedian so please forgive me if I've made any rookie mistakes with this request.

VV and I seem to be at loggerheads over the article PNAC. We have talked things over in some depth at the bottom of the discussion page, but our differences are just turning into an edit war and I really think a neutral observer could be very helpful in making some progress here. Thanks. CK 01:57, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Decline. Premature. And waste of time. VV 04:10, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

VeryVerily and Gzornenplatz, Kevin Baas

Request mediation with VeryVerily regarding his reversion practice on various articles including George W. Bush and Henry Kissinger. Gzornenplatz 04:46, Aug 30, 2004 (UTC)

Second the request. Kevin Baas | talk 18:28, 2004 Aug 30 (UTC)

I'd be willing to give it a try. However, I strongly doubt Gz's motives. I believe he is not interested in mediation and is making this request solely to "technically" satisfy the requirement of trying mediation before initiating an arbitration request. This is analogous to his previous action of leaving me a note on my Talk page to satisfy the requirement that two people must contact a user before starting an RfC (see [1]). I offer in support of this theory his statements on Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration that he believes mediation would be fruitless [2] [3]. It seems unlikely mediation can succeed when one party does not especially wish it to. VV 03:40, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I openly admit that I consider mediation futile, because you have previously demonstrated your complete obstinacy on this question whenever I talked to you about it (and I don't see what the interpolation of a mediator should change about it). But if you want to change your immovable stance now, great. If you don't think I wish this to succeed, what do you think I wish? I wish this question resolved, by one method or the other. If mediation does it, fine. If not, arbitration is needed. Gzornenplatz 10:14, Aug 31, 2004 (UTC)
Once again, there's the curious claim that I am the obstinate one, but I see other obstinate people here. But the point is that mediation has little hope if one party has a vested interest in it failing, and your prediction of "futility" will be self-fulfilling. VV 19:14, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Once again, I have no "vested interest" in it failing, I'm just afraid it is doomed to fail because of your previously stated determination to continue reverting, which I therefore believe only an arbitration decision can end. Gzornenplatz 19:46, Sep 1, 2004 (UTC)
So the sooner arbitration starts, the better? So the sooner this mediation business is over and declared a failure, the better? Is that how you see it? If so, it seems you have an interest in it failing. (Recall that mediation might require that you give a little, which you have been wholly unwilling to do.) VV 19:56, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)
The sooner you stop reverting, the better. That's how I see it. I don't see what I can possibly give here, this is solely about your behaviour. I am already showing considerable restraint in reverting. Would you prefer I behave like you and reflexively revert, ensuring permanent page protection? Gzornenplatz 20:01, Sep 1, 2004 (UTC)
No, I am suggesting mediation is unlikely to work, because your heart won't be in it. VV 20:07, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)
And I don't think yours will be. That's why I tried arbitration right away. But it's your choice now. Do you want to try mediation anyway, or shall we let it go to arbitration? Gzornenplatz 20:11, Sep 1, 2004 (UTC)
Why wouldn't my heart be in it? Do you think I want to burden the ArbCom with this frivolous scrap? VV 20:34, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Since you say you have no problem with the wording I propose, why don't you give it a rest? I know you think you're defending a "principle" - that if a passage is preferred by editors 5-3, then it becomes forever unalterable until a further vote goes another way. That is at the very least un-wiki-like, and if you read Wikipedia:Survey guidelines, you'll see polls are non-binding, only for limited purposes, and "supposed" to be implemented much unlike they were in this case. VV 20:12, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)
This is not particularly about polls (though I may remind you that in one case the vote was 20-3 against you). It's about trying to force your way by reverting, which is what is un-wiki-like here. And if you read Wikipedia:Three revert rule, you'll see that it's simply against policy. Gzornenplatz 20:24, Sep 1, 2004 (UTC)
As I have said a thousand times, that poll was on an unrelated issue (how much detail to have in the popularity section). As for forcing my way by reverting, that is what the other side is doing, and so I must too to keep up. Other methods have proven ineffective every time I have tried them, including enforcing the 3RR. VV 20:34, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Ineffective for what? Any attempt of yours to install a specific version against the prevailing talk page opinion is supposed to be ineffective. The 3RR applies to everyone else too. If everyone adheres to it, and you can't get your way because you're outnumbered by people favouring a different version, then all you can do is try and convince more people of your position on the talk page. Gzornenplatz 20:42, Sep 1, 2004 (UTC)
As I understand it, Gzornenplatz favors this version:
The validity of the Florida vote was heavily disputed and contested. Due to problems with voting equipment on Election Day, a manual recount was begun in several counties. The Bush campaign sued to stop the recount from continuing. The Florida Supreme Court allowed the recount to continue, but in mid-December the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in a 5-4 decision that the recounts must be stopped. After this, Gore conceded the election. The election results are still disputed by some, though no longer contested in any legal venue. (See U.S. presidential election, 2000).
And VeryVerily favors this version:
The Florida vote, which favored Bush by a tiny margin in the initial count, was heavily contested due to concerns about flaws and irregularities in the voting process, and became the subject of a series of contentious court cases. After a U.S. Supreme Court decision in mid-December favoring Bush, Gore conceded the election. The election results are still disputed by many, though no longer contested in any legal venue. See U.S. presidential election, 2000.
Would this version be acceptable to both of you?
The Florida vote was heavily disputed. While initially favoring Bush by a tiny margin in the initial count, a manual recount was begun in several counties due to concerns about flaws and irregularities in the voting process. The Bush campaign sued to stop the recount from continuing; after the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in a 5-4 decision that the recounts must be stopped, Gore conceded the election. See U.S. presidential election, 2000.
[[User:Neutrality|Neutrality (talk)]]14:07, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)
This is incorrect. The version I favor is the one you state above that Gz favors. VV 03:41, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
You're right. Fixed. [[User:Neutrality|Neutrality (talk)]] 04:03, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Actually, both VV and Rex prefer the version purported to be favored by VV. The version purported to be favored by Gz is favored by Neutrality, Gz, Iainscott, StellarFury, and Lyellin. (See Talk:George_W._Bush/Archive_11#Disputed_election_results_paragraph_-_building_consensus_2 for evidence.)
  • This is not at all about what version of the article I prefer (I agree in part with VeryVerily's), it is strictly about his behaviour. No matter how right his version may be, he can't just keep reverting (and without even an edit summary!) to force his way when most people favour different versions, as the polls have shown. This will just lead to constant page protections. Gzornenplatz 15:29, Aug 30, 2004 (UTC)
    • Nobody can stop VV from reverting except himself, ArbCom, and Jimbo. That's not what mediation is for. [[User:Neutrality|Neutrality (talk)]] 16:06, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)
      • Yes, except that when I requested arbitration, they rejected it, saying mediation has not been tried first! I know mediation is futile here, I'm just playing along with the bureaucratic rigmarole. Gzornenplatz 16:12, Aug 30, 2004 (UTC)
        • I'd prefer if mediation is actually given a chance here, rather than dismissed. Let's wait for VV to respond, and see if he would like to go through mediation. [[User:Neutrality|Neutrality (talk)]] 16:47, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)
          • Now you're contradicting yourself. You just said this is not what mediation is for. Gzornenplatz 16:51, Aug 30, 2004 (UTC)

To date, I have seldom agreed with Neutrality, but on this point he is correct - when he states: "I'd prefer if mediation is actually given a chance here...". Gzornenplatz's comment of "I'm just playing along with the bureaucratic rigmarole" is totally out of line an anathema to collegial editing. Rex071404 03:23, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

In the end, it's your call. If you both still wish to proceed with mediation, do either of you have any preferences for a mediator? Ambi 06:31, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

There are a number of mediators who should be recused, as they have already been involved, attempting to negotiate/mediate informally. Beyond that, I currently don't have criteria. I'll list them when i have more time. Beyond this, i'd be happy with whatever gz and vv are happy with. Kevin Baas | talk 20:51, 2004 Sep 1 (UTC)

Take your pick:

  • Angela
  • Anthere
  • Bcorr
  • Cimon Avaro
  • Dante Alighieri
  • Ed Poor
  • llywrch
  • moink
  • sannse
  • Stevertigo
  • TUF-KAT

Hmmmm, I haven't seen cimon, dante, llywch, or moink. How 'bout one of those, with preference in alphabetical order? Kevin Baas | talk 00:52, 2004 Sep 5 (UTC)

I have no preference. Gzornenplatz 11:16, Sep 7, 2004 (UTC)

BCorr is willing to mediate
I am willing to mediate this dispute if I am an acceptable choice. Kevin and VeryVerily, please indicate if I am an acceptable choice. If not, please indicate specifically who would be, and we can begin.

Thanks, BCorr|Брайен 14:22, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Sorry Bcorr, nothing personal: I want someone completely new to the dispute to mediate, to get a fresh perspective. Thanks for offering. If I had to pick a specific mediator, I'd go with Cimon, because he's first in alphabetical order. (btw, you failed to mention Gzornenplatz, who initiated this RfM.) Kevin Baas | talk 14:29, 2004 Sep 8 (UTC)
This seems like a pretty frivolous reason to reject someone's offer to mediate. VV 16:09, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for offering. I don't have a problem with you as a choice, or indeed with most of the other ones named. My misgiving remains that Gz has no interest in mediation, wishing only to pretend to do it to induce arbitration, and so he will not actually try to make it work. VV 14:32, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I said I have no preference, I'm OK with Bcorr or anyone else. Let's just get on with it. Gzornenplatz 14:33, Sep 8, 2004 (UTC)
OK, I've asked Cimon Avaro to let you know if that's possible. And BTW, I did leave Gzornenplatz a note, but since he'd already said above that he had no preference, I didn't think it was necessary to mention him by name. Thanks, BCorr|Брайен 15:56, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I would prefer the first available mediator among those I have listed. Kevin Baas | talk 00:43, 2004 Sep 14 (UTC)



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