Talk:George W. Bush military service controversy

Template:Potuspov

I think this could really use a better title. I don't think anyone popularly knows this as the "Texas Air National Guard controversy." The controversy is about Bush, not the Texas Guard. How about something like: "George W. Bush military service controversy"? Cecropia 01:42, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I'm definitely open to a better title. This one was the result of a small amount of brainstorming on my part, which produced a list of titles none of which were that great. However, I don't know if your proposed title has any better recognition than this one. -- V V 03:10, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I just think Bush's name should be in the title, since the issue is specifically about him. In fact, it occurs to me that the time in dispute was actually in Alabama. How about "President Bush National Guard controversy"? Cecropia 05:14, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I tend to agree Bush's name should be there (although, e.g., Watergate is clearly about Nixon). Not to sound overly negative, however, but I'm not happy with any proposal yet (including, notably, my own). For instance, there are two "President Bush"'s, and in both cases I wouldn't bother mentioning "President" in the title (cf. Lincoln's second inaugural address). While the main events may be in Alabama, it was the Texas Guard, no? I think you're on to something with "military service controversy", though, as we can then throw in people who say daddy kept him out of 'Nam. -- V V 06:03, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

"While the main events may be in Alabama, it was the Texas Guard, no?" As a technical matter, no. National Guard (unlike Army Reserve) is state-specific. He was being allowed temporary duty in the Alabama Guard (not uncommon) but it was the Alabama Guard, not the Texas Guard, that he was supposed to have failed to show up for. But I'm looking at the fact that, after the election, no matter who wins, I don't think one person in a hundred (especially outside the US) will have a clue what the "Texas Air National Guard controversy" is about.

BTW, I don't know how potent the "daddy kept him out of 'Nam" issue can be. Most political daddies kept their kids out of the war, and the easy way they let celebrities out was a scandal in its own time--like Joe Namath because he had a bad knee. Gore served essentially as a favor to his daddy to counter charges of softness on defense in the latter man's reelection campaign. Sorry to ramble on, but a number of people have observed that the Vietnam War might not have been so easily escalated if there wasn't such a large pool of men available to draft, so that just about anyone with pull (and a lot without) were able to avoid service. Cecropia 06:15, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I have no real opinion on that issue, I only bring it up because it is mentioned in the article (first sentence of criticisms section, in fact). Perhaps you could expand on it, in particular defending against it. I was just noting that that particular criticism, valid or not, might also be a good fit to include here rather than elsewhere, and the title could reflect this inclusiveness. Anyway, I'm still stuck for good ideas. And I agree with your concerns. Maybe "George W. Bush's military service controversy" is best after all. Hm.... -- V V 06:27, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Well, yes, if the Vietnam issue is included, I agree it would better be here than in the main article. Cecropia 06:35, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Figure/timeline, please

As it stands, I find the text really hard to follow, just because there are so many dates and unit numbers involved that it makes your head spin. It would be great to have a timeline as a table, where the rows indicate the dates of various events and alleged events in 1968–1974, the columns indicate the different units/locations at which he supposedly served, and the entries summarize the text in a few words. To help cross-reference the timeline to the text, you could e.g. number the paragraphs. —Steven G. Johnson 23:22, Jun 5, 2004 (UTC)

Flight Physicals

The physical that they are talking about is a flight officers only physical, only required if one is going to stay on flight status. Any flight officer that doesn't take the annual physical for whatever reason, will be removed from flying duty no matter what the reason (including transfer to non-flying duty), it's standard procedure. I am sure even Chuck Yeager received formal orders grounded him from flight status after his retirement from the USAF.

Also mandatory drug testing was no instituted until the 1980's, and it was only mandatory for new enlistees. Existing officers (enlisted, or commissioned) only received drug testing after it was instituted in lots (for example a who unit would be tested), or after an accident.

As said by a guardsmen on a flying forum:

"I hope I don't run for President, because they would go apeshit looking at my flying records:

"He had to get rechecked in the Huey THREE times! He must have been a poor pilot....his medical clearance expired for a MONTH! What physical problems was he hiding? Why didn't he get a physical as required by regulation? He FAILED an evaluation in pilot training, more evidence that he wasn't the great pilot he acts like he is..."

And he said:

"One thing you need to understand to make any sense of this is the Guard is VERY flexible when it comes to your civilian occupation. Generally, if your civilian job takes you away from your unit in such a capacity that you can't make your traditional obligation (ie attend unit drill on the weekends), you can either make it up via other ways, or in some cases you can be exempt from attending altogether.

In short, the Guard can't legally force you to give up your civilian occupation just to serve with a particular unit once a month. If Bush left to work on a political campaign in Alabama, and the campaign is legitimate (and it was), then the Texas Air Guard can't force him to come back to serve.
Bush requested to transfer, and that was denied. It was denied NOT because they wanted Bush to come back to Texas, but because Bush was an F-102 pilot, and he wasn't trained to fulfill any other career field. Plus he requested to transfer to the Air Force Reserve, which is a totally different entity. AFRes is a Federal organization, whereas the TXANG is a state organization. Bush received a direct commission (which is legal and not uncommon in the Guard), but that commission was a state commission with Federal recognition. In other words, he was a commissioned officer in the TXANG, but the federal government recognized his authority as such. However, he did not possess a federal full commission. So he was ineligible to serve as a commissioned officer in the AFRes.

I know, it sounds sketchy to some, but that's the way it works. We had a guy who was direct commissioned in the LA ARNG back in the late 1990s, and after flying helicopters for a while he wanted to fly airplanes. He couldn't go to the Reserves because he held a state commission. He couldn't attend federal OCS/OTS (Officer Candidate School) because you can't hold a commission of any kind prior to entry. So his only choice was to transfer to the LAANG to fly F-15s, which he did."

William Turnipseed

After looking into Turnipseed's comments about the Bush AWOL story, it seems that Turnipseed may have been misquoted, or his statements taken out of context:

Walter Robinson cited retired Turnipseed, of the Alabama Air National Guard, as his source.

But in an interview , Turnipseed states that Robinson's reporting of their conversation was either distorted or based upon his misunderstanding of how the military functioned at the time of Bush's service. For Bush to be "AWOL" or "away without leave," he would have had to have been assigned to a unit and under its command.

Turnipseed states Bush was never ordered to report to the Alabama Air National Guard. He points out that Bush never transferred from the Texas Air National Guard to the Alabama Air National Guard. He remained in the Texas Guard during his stay in Alabama. This was confirmed by the Texas Guard. And Turnipseed added that Bush was never under his command or any other officer in the Alabama Guard.

Turnipseed added that Bush was informed of the drill schedule of the Alabama Guard as a courtesy so he could get credit for drills while in Alabama for his service record in the Texas Guard. There was no compulsory attendance.This was also confirmed by the Texas Guard.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/elect/cst-nws-banal11.html

How should the article be altered to reflet this?

new info

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap20040909_831.html

debunk or support. --kizzle 17:37, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

That's rehashing of old stuff. Suspension from flying is a normal procedure, see my mention about flight physicals in the talk. If he was no longer available for flying duty (aka no longer in Texas) he doesn't need to report for a flight physical until he is ready to return to his duties.

PPGMD

It's rather more than just that. According to the new information Bush didn't just skip his physical, he "failed to meet standards of the Texas Air National Guard" and refused a direct order. Bryan 00:20, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

This new info is possibly based on forged documents - story is now unfolding. Let's not be like CBS and rush to conclusions... TimShell 05:26, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Quite. However, even if the memos turn out to be false, my point remains that this is not just a rehashing of old stuff - it's a hashing of new stuff. Bryan 05:53, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Oh, and I should note that proportional fonts were not a particularly rare innovation on typewriters by then. I found a neat old advertisement for an IBM electric typewriter from 1954 that brags about having it: [1] [2]. Bryan 05:53, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

In 1964 I had one of those IBM proportional spacing typwriters for business purposes. In 1968-69 I typed plenty of Army orers. Trust me, we didn't have $1,000 (1968 dollars) IBM electric typewriters to type them on. Plus (ask the man who owned one) the serif typeface was a variant of Century Schoolbook, not Times Roman. And the superscript "th". No way, Jose. Note also that wherever there is a "th" which isn't superscript there is a space between the number and the "th." That was contrary to military style, but it is consistent with trying to srop Microsoft Word from superscripting the "th." Another thing I noticed that noone else has mentioned is that the alledged order for Bush to report for physical said "not later than (NLT)." Why do you think that the military used abbrievations in orders like NLT, UOINDIC, ASAP? To avoid spelling out the phrase. Duh! These memos stink, and they talk about the Republican smear machine. -- Cecropia | Talk 06:06, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

That's a very interesting ad, thanks Bryan. It's been reported today that military memorandum's from that time in general all seem to be on the traditional monospace typewriters. Also, doing superscripts with a smaller font was not very available in the 1970s and any typewriter that had such a feature required extra effort for the effect, whereas Microsoft Word does it automatically. We'll see how this news pans out. Jewbacca 05:59, Sep 10, 2004 (UTC)

The heat may really be on CBS to reveal their sources. Yeah, yeah, I know about journalist privilege to protect sources, but if these are forgeries than CBS may be complicit in election fraud if they stonewall. Fasten your seatbelts, folks. -- Cecropia | Talk 06:11, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

This, apart from being excessively detailed, appears incorrect with regards to the current controversy:

Although most typewriters at the time featured what is known as monospace or fixed-width type (similar to the Courier font available on word processors), these features did exist on typewriters available for standard office use in the 1970s: IBM has offered typewriters with proportional spacing since at least 1941 and superscripts and kerning were also available features; one model, the IBM Executive, would not be prohibitively expensive for standard office use and records show that it and the more expensive IBM Selectric Composer (an expensive, professional-quality typesetter) were being "tested" by the military in the 1960s. It is unknown how likely it is whether such a typewriter might have been in Killian's office.

The superscript available on typewriters of the era could not make the characters smaller, just higher, because they were "on a fixed-sized metal wheel": link The superscript characters on the memos were smaller.

Also, the fonts on a Selectric don't match the fonts on the memos: link TimShell 23:21, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

More info on these memos from another blogger [3]. Apologies if this has already been posted/discussed elsewhere. AlistairMcMillan 01:07, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

People who are speculating at the "could-be facts": "If the type don't fit, you must acquit" :) never seem to have worked on any of the typewriters in question, and more obviously never worked in a military office. The type on the document, if it came from a typewriter, would have to have been made on an IBM Executive (typebar machine) or an IBM Selectric Composer. The former machine had what was called a "changeable typebar" which you could remove and replace in order to get special characters. IF the military provided a reserve unit (no less) with a $1,000 typewriter to type up orders a gossip and IF they ordered the changeable typebar option, and IF the typist knew that a "th" subscript was in the changeable position, he MIGHT have typed it (but why just once on the document). Notice that the superscript "th" is the only one where there is not a space between the number and the superscript. Gee, that couldn't be because that's how you prevent MS Word from superscripting, is it? ;-)

Now let's take the Selectric Composer. That is not the same as the Selectric Typewriter, which is a monospace machine. The SC was made for typesetting, not typing. WTF would one of these expensive machines be doing in a reserve office to type memos and orders. The SC impressed its typeball image on a special carbon film ribbon in order to produce cheap (relative to linotype) typesetting. This was not suitable for carbons, which were a military staple.

But all this could be cleared up if CBS were to release the original documents. In fact, CBS says "[...]the documents being analyzed outside of CBS have been photocopied, faxed, scanned and downloaded, and are far removed from the documents CBS started with. "

Exactly.

When, to show that it is a responsible news organization and not an accessory to fraud, CBS gives the memos to an impartial lab, we'll find out a few things beyond the typeface: (1) is the paper of a type used by the military in 1972?; (2) is the paper a type used by anyone in 1972?; (3) is the paper quality consistent with paper that in more than 30 years old?; (4) is the imaging material (ink, IOW) of a type used on a typewriter of the era or is it maybe copier toner?; (5) if it's ink, is the ink aged by more than 30 years? Come on, CBS, you can clear this up instead of stonewalling. -- Cecropia | Talk 03:54, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

A Break

It is my experience in stories like these, i.e. forged documents, that we should not comment on them till the dust settles a little. I am sure the documents are forged, and that CBS/60 minutes will be forced to retract and apologize but untill further developments materialize, perhaps we should give this article a rest for a few days. TDC 20:41, Sep 10, 2004 (UTC)

Barring new info emerging, I agree. Based on my own experience in the military in the same time frame, experience with typewriters and typesetting machines then and since, I can't really conceive of it not being a hoax. I'm saying that honestly and not argumentatively, since the investigation will pass to people with a lot more access to investigative info than we have. Then the question will become: Who created the documents; who brought them to the attention of CBS and how; and that old favorite, who (if anyone) in or connected to the Kerry campaign knew what when. It won't suffice for CBS to just stonewall; they will at least have to answer who gave them the documents, how they were obtained from a man's supposed personal affects without his family knowing, and who the "experts" were that CBS said vetted the documents and said they were genuine, and why they thought so. -- Cecropia | Talk 21:06, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

We should also note that the widow of his CO said he was not the type of man to type a memo (she said he didn't even know how to type), he often made his notes on the back of whatever was available like business cards. This follows the typical pilot CO's that I have meet from the USAF over the years, almost always most administrative stuff, like the composition of a written order. Also the widow said that the CO actually liked GWB. Finally the widow says that she is supposedly is possession of all his records, and no one else should have access to them.

PPGMD

Also note that a controversial issue in-unit was not handled by written (no less typed) menus. You got on the horn; you huddled in the CO's office. Military people are not quite as naive and stupid as the non-serving majority (including virtually all the people accusing Bush, like Terry McAuliffe) look to believe. And for a soldier, no less a field grade officer, to type a memo with a leading subject like "CYA" and then file it for posterity is so incredible it's not even funny. -- Cecropia | Talk 16:03, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Signature

I have read that the signature was confirmed to be from the same person by handwritting experts. If there is something saying that the signature is not exactly the same as others of the same name, but not neccessarily from a different hand, there should at least be mention that a handwritting expert consulted by CBS before airing the report confirmed that it was by the same hand. Kevin Baas | talk 17:51, 2004 Sep 11 (UTC)

Selectric + Times New Roman

Can anyone confirm if the Times New Roman font was ever licensed to IBM? It wouldn't matter of an IBM typewriter made proportional fonts, of those fonts were different from the ones in the memo. I read, Times New Roman was used by the Times of London only until it was licensed to Microsoft, but can't confirm that anywhere. TimShell 18:15, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Hmmm, apparently they had something called Press Roman, which was different: [4] TimShell 18:37, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

This link (already in the article) is informative, thou perhaps not conclusive:[5] - the end of this article also raises questions about the current wording of the signature section in the wiki article. Kevin Baas | talk 18:45, 2004 Sep 11 (UTC)

I recall reading something in the newspaper this morning about Times New Roman being licensed to IBM around 1930's, i think it was in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel. Kevin Baas | talk 18:50, 2004 Sep 11 (UTC)

IBM hired Stanley Morison (the designer of Times New Roman) to design a version of Times New Roman for the Selectric in the 1960s according to this site. [6] AlistairMcMillan 18:52, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Times Roman was not licensed to IBM. The font IBM used for the Selectric Composer was called Press Roman, which was a variant. It was common to make alterations to a common licensed font and give it a different name. For example: Helvetica (Mergenthaler Linotye) = Helios (Compugraphic) = Arial (Microsoft). In the US there is no copyright on fonts, just font names, and in recent years closer approximations of licensed fonts have been made.

However, this is a lot of energy being expended treating this as though it were a murder trial ("beyond a reasonable doubt...). This is more like fraud. The handsprings people are going to try to pretend that the font issue is Kosher reminds me of the people trying to prove that the 18-1/2 minutes of Nixon's tape were really erased accidentally. -- Cecropia | Talk 21:18, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Mr. Matley

Mr. Matley, the documents expert, said in an interview after the program, that he had examined documents and handwriting since 1985 and had testified in 65 trials. Mr. Matley said the documents the network sent him were so deteriorated from copying that it was impossible to identify the typeface.

"It's sheer speculation to say that you couldn't have done that until a computer came along, he said.

As a result, he said, he focused on the signatures. CBS sent him the four newfound documents, as well as others that have been verified as signed by Colonel Killian. "There were significant similarities and the differences were insignificant," he said in the configuration of letters and the angle of the writing. -from source cited above. Kevin Baas | talk 19:01, 2004 Sep 11 (UTC)

I'm sure Marcel Matley is a perfectly respectable professional and it is unfortunate that he be dragged into this scandal, but:

a definite finding of authenticity for a signature is not possible from a photocopy - Marcel Matley, in The Practical Litigator, September 27, 2002. [7]

This is exactly what he and CBS claims he has done with the 1972 memo. If those defending the authenticity of the memo continue resting their claims on Matley's findings, this factoid should be added to the article. Otherwise, it is just another piece of minutia. TimShell 20:05, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Ah, it was copied many times. CBS now acknowledges they don't have the original. Have you ever heard of mortising a signature? Nobody seems to be commenting on the fact that Kerry's people may well survive this scrutiny, but will CBS? Who will take their investigative reporting seriously? -- Cecropia | Talk 21:21, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

CBS: The BS stands for BS. I stopped taking them seriously years ago. TimShell 22:13, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Chew on this ......... Matley claims to have authenticated the document not based on typeset, but on the signature. Unfortunately for Matley, this contradicts an earlier position on signature verification.

In fact, modern copiers and computer printers are so good that they permit easy fabrication of quality forgeries. From a copy, the document examiner cannot authenticate the unseen original but may well be able to determine that the unseen original is false. Further, a definite finding of authenticity for a signature is not possible from a photocopy, while a definite finding of falsity is possible. [8]

And the plot thickens again......... TDC 22:11, Sep 11, 2004 (UTC)

Whoopsey Doodle, I gues I did not see the previous post on this subject. TDC 22:12, Sep 11, 2004 (UTC)

The son speaks about the "memos"

FOX News conducted two interviews by telephone on Sept. 10, 2004, with Gary Killian, son of the late Lt. Colonel Jerry B. Killian [[User:Rex071404|Rex071404 ]] 19:28, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

How would the son have any knowledge on the matter? This is appeal to authority that does not satisfy the criteria for legitimacy. It's significance should not be overstated. Kevin Baas | talk 19:33, 2004 Sep 11 (UTC)

The son claims familiarity with his father's habits and methods [[User:Rex071404|Rex071404

]] 19:54, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Reserve commitments

To talk about something besides the memos for a moment. If we are talking about failing to fulfill a commitment, Bush apparently did, according to the standards of the time. Specific points of reference like serving x numbers of times in a particular time frame and showing up until the last day of your reserve enlistment were waived early and often. The militay was especially sensitive to giving people a bye for working in politics--the U.S. military has a very strong culture of deferring to political authority. Ask anyone working in an administrative capacity when a "Congressional" came down. Kerry availed himself of this when he got an early out to work in a Massachuseets campaign.

Speaking personally, I had to sign a commitment saying I understand that I was responsibile for a six year service commitment, despite the fact I was drafted. I was separated from active duty in 1969, but I spent two years in the ready reserve and two years in the standby reserve and never went to a single meeting until I received my honorable discharge in 1973. I did get a nice glossy magazine every month and maintained my membership in the Military Police Association, though. People are pontificating about what they don't know about. -- Cecropia | Talk 01:17, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Killian Memo Has Wrong Deadline, Cites Wrong Regulation

Killian Memo Has Wrong Deadline, Cites Wrong Regulation [[User:Rex071404|Rex071404 ]] 02:30, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

some of which were in use by the Air Force.[9]

The article claims the Air Force tested these, not that they were in use. Bush and Killian were not in the Air Force, anyway. (Hmm, I guess the Air National Guard is part of the Air Force, so never mind that part TimShell 03:19, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC))

I'm not sure you need the hmm... The National Guard is not part of the related service, exactly. National Guard is state. You can make a better case that the Air Force Reserve is part of the Air Force, but that's not exactly equivalent either. They have separate command structures unless they are activated for regular service. But the overriding point is that Guard and Reserve never got the latest and greatest for obvious reasons. When I trained in the Army in 1967 we didn't even qualify on M-16s unless and until we were on orders for 'Nam. We trained on, qualified on, and used M-14s, and that was Regular Army, not Reserve. -- Cecropia | Talk 04:29, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The attempts to defend the authenticity of these memos are getting really stretched. The idea that a man who didn't type, would use a machine costing the equivalent of at least $16,000 in today's money to type up a personal memo, is absurd. Even if such a machine would produce Times New Roman fonts, which it wouldn't. TimShell 02:32, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

It's possible

In regards to the possibility that a particularly expensive and rare model typewriter just so happened to be the one used for the memo and just so happened to produce such a curiously matched to MS Word memo, well here's what has to have happened for that to be true:

A man who never typed memos of this type (says his wife)
would have had to have had "CYA" fear (that his son says he was not the type to have)
which would have drove him to produce memos
which ALGORE's opposition research team never found
and Ann Richards oppo team never found
and the Democratic National committee never found
which were not in the papers his wife still has
and not in his Guard files
but somehow were perfectly preserved
and somehow fell into the hands of those who want to publicize them
after not falling into friendly hands in 32 years
but even so, are indeed bona fide
and came to CBS, via a route they won't announce
after having sat around all these years
since supposedly being typed - in complete opposition to the known personality traits of the supposed author
on a very rare and expensive typewriter
which the national guard had none of
using a particular typeface element
and in doing so, exactly matched MS Word of today
but with no proof that this supposed typewriter configuration actually could produce such a result (only speculation)

I've heard of "totem pole hearsay", but this - this is "totem pole speculation" 17 times removed. [[User:Rex071404|Rex071404 ]] 05:10, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Yes, but if Dan Rather reports it, it must be true... </sarcasm> TimShell 05:12, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

File:GWBAWOL.gif

Mabey we could incorporate this comparision of one of the documents in questions to an MS Word generated version. Click on it to see it enlarged. TDC 08:25, Sep 12, 2004 (UTC)

We need attribution and license release by image creator [[User:Rex071404|Rex071404 ]] 09:14, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

No problem, gimme a day or two. TDC 17:28, Sep 12, 2004 (UTC)

Permission has been recieved from Charles Johnson of little green footballs. TDC 19:12, Sep 12, 2004 (UTC)

The license notice must be on the graphic itself? Or, perhaps you can post the text of the OK onto the "article page" off the graphic? Here is the URL for that:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:GWBAWOL.gif [[User:Rex071404|Rex071404 ]] 19:42, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Graphical timeline - can we get it into SVG?

Ignoring the forged memo issue for a second, I managed to convince Simon Woodside to release his great graphical timeline of Bush's military service (only based on the official documents) under a Creative Commons license. Now, the version currently used in the article is a big GIF file - it looks nice, but is not editable. It would be nice to have an SVG copy as well, so we could all make changes to the timeline using free software. Unfortunately the program Simon used to create the timeline does not support SVG export, but he has created an EPS copy [10]. Does anyone here have the tools necessary to convert EPS or PDF [11] to SVG?--Eloquence *

(misunderstanding about licensing moved to Rex' talk page)

At this juncture, I lack the expertise to comment on licenses. Therefore, I will confine my inquiry to the image itself. I take extreme objection to the undue emphasis being placed on the phrase "we not seen Bush for past 12 months". Other than that, my very brief initial inspection indicates that the image may not be too objectionable, provided that phrase is striken in it's entirity. I can almost assure you that there will be a mini-riot of emotion by several editors here if that clearly POV phrase is not expunged. See if Simon will resend with that removed. Also, if the licnese allows, I'll be happy to edit it out. [[User:Rex071404|Rex071404 ]] 06:52, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

(Rex has edited the image, removed the text "we not seen Bush for past 12 months", and replaced the image in the article with Image:Reserves2.gif. The original one is at Image:Reserves.gif. In spite of the bad taste in my mouth, I'll leave it to others to argue about whether this change was beneficial.--Eloquence *)

This edit was only undertaken after licensing issues were explanied to me by E. Also, the current version is 2a, and it indicates the 336 flight hours GWB logged. [[User:Rex071404|Rex071404 ]] 07:58, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I am the original author of the graphic. I have corrected the typo to "We have not seen Bush for the past 12 months" in my original [[12]]. I assure you that this is a correct paraphrase of the primary evidence. If you have doubts you must examine the original, primary documents, released by the government directly under FOIA. They are at coldfeet [[13]]. Specifically page 1 [[14]] and page 2 [[15]]. It is the "Officer Effectiveness Report". Page 2 states the report date, 1973/05/02. Page 1 states the period of the report, 1972/05/01 to 1973/04/30, therefore 12 months prior to the report date (give or take a couple of days). On page 2, the authors of the report, who were Lt. Bush's officers, wrote: "Lt. Bush has not been observed at this unit during the period of report." I had to shorten it to fit in the document space and style; I paraphrased: "We" (the authors of the report) "have not seen Bush" (first half of quote) "for the past twelve months" (the period of the report). Rex071404, sorry, I think the only way to justify your edit is to prove that the paraphrase is incorrect or inaccurate. Can you do that?--sbwoodside

Typewriter evaluation

Just now, Gamaliel reverted an edit of mine without and edit summary and without talking here. I am concenred about that aand am inviting him to talk. In the meantime, I have re-reverted my edits about the typewriter. [[User:Rex071404|Rex071404 ]] 09:16, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

That is not correct, I did not revert. [[User:Gamaliel|Gamaliel File:Watchmensmiley20.gif]] 09:18, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

You made an edit which completely removed it; why so? Please advise. [[User:Rex071404|Rex071404 ]] 09:31, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Your edit stated that there was no evidence that a particular model of typewriter was employed by the TANG, which is true. My edit stated that there was no evidence of what sort of typerwriter was used by TANG at all, which includes the typewriters in your sentence. Since my statement covered all typewriters, I did not see the need for a statement which covered a particular type of typewriter. I thought this was self-explainatory. I apologize if you did not understand it. [[User:Gamaliel|Gamaliel File:Watchmensmiley20.gif]] 09:38, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

What my edit made clear was - there is no information which indicates that any of the "evaluated" typewriters made their way from the Air Force to the National Guard. I feel this explicity is needed so as to make clear that Air Force and National Guard are separate and distinct and there is no evidence of "typewriter" tranference between them. Frankly, since it was the Air Force and not the National Guard units with which GWB served that "evaluated" certain model typewriters, the entire sentence mentioning this evaluation by the Air Force ought to be stricken as being no more relevant than if GMC or Ford Motors "evaluated" them. I see no purpose in that sentence in the first place, other than to confuse the readers with a implication that USA Air Force and state National Guard units are some how connected via office equipment. Certainly they were not and the implication that they might be, is misleading. [[User:Rex071404|Rex071404 ]] 09:45, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

About your accusatory edit summary "restore my edit which Gamaliel has deleted yet again - he has not yet responded to my futher explanation on Talk - rather he simply deleted me me again)" I did infact post an explanation here at 05:38 EST then made changes to the article at 05:40 EST. Then I left wikipedia. You posted to talk at 05:45 and then accused me in that edit summary of 06:12. I did not ignore your comments of 05:45, I simply did not see them as I had already made my edits and left. You should not let your zeal to defend your edits and discredit a particular factoid in the article cause you to throw out accusatory remarks. This is a rather mild example from you but I worry that given your past behavior this could easily blossom into an edit war should you get overly heated. The changes I have made were not designed to delete your comments or to promote a particular fact, I simply believe a blanket statment covering all typewriters is more informative, more concise, and more NPOV than one covering a single model. The fact is that we don't know what typewriters TANG used, a fact which you deleted from the article in your zeal to "prove" that they didn't have IBM Selectric Composers. I posted a compromise sentence which I believe covers the concerns of both of us, though I still feel a blanket statment is what belongs there. [[User:Gamaliel|Gamaliel File:Watchmensmiley20.gif]] 20:38, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Partisan Conflicts of Interest

This is my first time contributing anything to Wikipedia so I wanted to add a quick note here explaining the section I added titled "Partisan Conflicts of Interest". I've followed the story of the Killian documents quite closely, primarily on the Little Green Footballs weblog. It is amazing to me, first of all, what obvious forgeries these memos are, given that they were clearly created with Microsoft Word, as a side-by-side comparison reveals. Even more amazing to me was seeing Dan Rather and CBS continue to rabidly (and angrily) defend them, as well as the left-wing bloggers such as Markos Zuniga at Daily Kos and contributors to Democratic Underground, while accusing those who question their authenticity of being, in Dan Rather's words, "Republican operatives".

This led me to write a section linking to the major blogs on each side, commenting that the ones which continue to support the memos are self-proclaimed liberal sites, and the ones most eager to discredit them are conservative sites. So, is Dan Rather a liberal or a conservative? Given his past record, it is obvious that he has both a liberal bias, and a specific record of support for the Democratic Party in Texas. This has been chronicled at RatherBiased.com, which is eye-opening, to say the least.

So, there is a meta-question at work here. I have been very satisfied with Wikipedia's efforts to maintain an NPOV, and I think that it is quite appropriate to criticize the occasional lack thereof by the mainstream media. Therefore, I hope that this section remains in Wikipedia.

I think this section should be deleted. (I would've yanked it myself, without bothering to discuss it first, but I'm exercising some restraint on the theory of "don't bite the newbies".) What matters to this article could be summarized and placed elsewhere with language along these lines: "There are bloggers on both sides of the authenticity question, and their opinions about authenticity tend to correlate with their preferences in the presidential election." I don't know if a survey of the blogosphere is even relevant, but if we were to talk about what's addressed here as "conflicts of interest", that's about all that needs to be said. Throwing mud at an AP reporter about an alleged error in a story about Clinton is completely beside the point. JamesMLane 15:45, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

~~You think which section should be deleted?~~ Oh, you mean the bloggers section. I'm not sure. At this point I think this is part of the story, so I would leave it for now. Whether or not the Kerry Campaign is implicted, this is a big big story. I've followed election campaigns closely since 1960 (and politics since McCarthy--Joe, not Eugene) and I can't remember an instance of a major news organization creating a damning story about a politician from forged documents. And, yes, I don't see how they can be genuine. I think CBS' only fall-back position is that these memos were transcriptions but I'm not sure they could sell that. -- Cecropia | Talk 16:07, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I think the whole "Partisan Conflicts of Interest" section should be deleted, possibly with a salvaging of the blogger information as per the sample sentence I gave. JamesMLane 16:20, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I don't see the point of this section at all. This article is about GWB's military service, not a place to hash out who is the media is biased. Aren't there other articles for this? And sure, media bias affects this issue, as it affects every other issue in the history of the media. And it isn't something that's provable by encyclopedic standards, so I worry that this is a POV can of worms we're opening here. [[User:Gamaliel|Gamaliel File:Watchmensmiley20.gif]] 20:44, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I disagree. While I won't judge the quality of what is in this section, this article is not really about GWB's military service any more than controversy about Kerry's purple hearts is really about his. This article is about examining minutae of Bush's military service in order to make an accusation against him bearing on his character and (in the eyes of some) fitness for office. Now we have some damning memos unearthened under mysterious circumstances 32 years after their alleged creation and just two months before a presidential election. The member of the major media that reported these memos refuses to give information that would allow others to accurately judge these memos and, not incidentally, CBS' motives and credibility. So this article is (inter alia) all about media bias. -- Cecropia | Talk 21:47, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I hope user:Jhamby continues to contribute to Wikipedia, but I think this section should be deleted. The issue really has nothing to do with bloggers, and what bloggers believe. Besides, on any partisan issue, you can say, conservative bloggers tend to take the conservative view, liberal bloggers support the liberal view, etc. That hardly even qualifies as information.

I do think we've done a pretty good job on this topic so far, keeping it accurate and up-to-date, and mostly NOPV despite its highly partisan nature. And despite the fact that we have to articles covering the same ground: Killian memos. TimShell 22:19, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Source of documents

Maybe some of you who've followed this story more closely can explain something to me. The experts in typefaces can argue about whether these documents could or could not have been produced in the 1970s. Even if some typewriters available then could've done the job, however, that doesn't establish authenticity. (The documents could've been produced in 2004 on a word processor, or in 2004 on a well-preserved appropriate model typewriter from the 1970s.) I'm suspicious when documents surface that are supposedly signed by someone now conveniently dead. An obvious basis of authenticity would be if someone from his family produced the documents with the explanation that they just turned up in the course of moving stuff around in the attic, but that hasn't happened here. The article says only that they came from "an unnamed source". Is there any more information available on this point? Who else might have had access to such memos and might now be producing them? It may be that there's nothing more to be said in the article but, compared to all this attention to typefaces, it's certainly a point that left me wanting more information. JamesMLane 16:20, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

CBS know the story, but they are part of the story. So far they refuse to say where they came from or why they think the giver is reliable. Their entire news organization credibility is at stake. CBS has a lot to explain and I'm not sure they are in any way protected by law for refusing to do so. -- Cecropia | Talk 16:26, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Ah, repeating right wing spin...

The parts of this article on the Killian documents in its current state is deeply POV. It's a case for the prosecution, with occasional bits of the defense's case, and nonsensical bits about how the people who are attacking the documents are Republicans, and the people defending it are Democrats. Sigh. john k 01:26, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Referring to it as "right wing spin" is kind of POV, too. You consider The Washington Post right wing? (Double sigh) -- Cecropia | Talk 01:37, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Well, it's a talk page, I'm allowed to be POV in a talk page. I do not consider the Washington Post to be right wing. I do consider the Washington Post, and other mainstream media sources, to be far too ready to repeat whatever crap it is that Drudge or Little Green Footballs are screaming about, because they're afraid that they'll be accused of being left wing.

At any rate, what irritates me about this story, is that just about every one of the original accusations (that is, that there's no possible way that a typewriter from the 70s could produce these memos because of proportional fonts, or superscripts, or whatever), has been proven false very easily. That so-called "experts" were repeating stuff that could easily be disproved by a google search leaves me with little regard for their credibility when they try to claim that, even though it now turns out that all that crap they were saying before was completely bogus, they still think the documents might be forged. (I'd add that I think Hodges is full of crap, and has every reason to lie about what he told CBS before, now that the documents have been called into question, but that's probably not very constructive).

What I would suggest, as far as constructive criticism of the article, is that we try to stay out of the details of this nonsense as much as possible. I think a mention of what the documents allege, that their authenticity has been challenged, and that there's no particular conclusion one way or another, would be sufficient. As it is, this one dispute dominates the entire article. john k 01:52, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Why do you think these things are disproven so easily? I have first hand experience both with military administration and with each of the kinds of typewriter and composing machine being discussed and I will say flatly that it is virtually impossible for those memos to be contemporaneous to 1972. The only machine that could possibly have produced that is a Selectric Composer, which I used both in its standalone form and in its computerized form (as the MTSC), and no way was a military man in the reserves typing memos on one. Do you even have the vaguest idea how you would have to operate an SC or an MTSC in order to produce those memos in that form? -- Cecropia | Talk 03:05, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

But there are people who are also saying they have experience with these things and that it is possible that those memos are contemporaneous to 1972. That's the problem with disputes like this, reasonable people are differing based on the same evidence. IMO we're also verging on original research by going into the amount of detail we are about the technical intricacies of an issue that's still so new. Why not trim it down to the bare minimum, provide a couple of external links to the people still working on the details, and come back in a few months when the dust's settled to write up what details turned out to actually be relevant? Bryan 03:50, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I see your point, but this strains credibility. I mean, these memos could have been created with hand type on a composition frame and pulled on a proof press, but does that make it reasonable? -- Cecropia | Talk 03:59, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Cecropia, I have no actual idea, but this kind of argument from authority is ultimately not convincing either way. Bryan's point is that there are plenty of people claiming experience with typewriters saying the exact opposite from you. We have no means of judging between this. As I already said, I agree with Bryan that this section should be cut down to a bare minimum and leave it be for a while. john k 04:07, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Well this is just for your information. What goes onto the project page won't really make a rat's you-know-what of difference in the broader discussion. Having knowledge I know why these memos are not contemporaneous to 1972 but you obviously don't need to accept my word for it. I'll just say that personal experience should count for something vs. the holy grail of modern research: "how many hits does it get on Google." Time will tell but just see if the press sticks with it as the NY Times did in trying to deconstruct the Swiftvets. If you are at all interested in some of the technical issues, see this and this.

I'm not saying that personal experience shouldn't count for something. I'm just saying it's impossible to say in exactly what way personal experience counts when there's dozens of people claiming personal experience arguing completely contradictory things. john k 05:09, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

So this can be settled if one of these "experts" could reproduce the memos with reasonable effort on a 1970s era typewriter. It's already been shown on 2003 technology. Jewbacca 05:11, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC)

Except that when you actually look closely at the LGF copy, it doesn't match up exactly. Of course, 70s typewriters are harder to come by than microsoft word. At any rate, the burden of proof is all wrong here. Those claiming a forgery should have to provide actual evidence that these documents couldn't have been made on a 70s typewriter, rather than demanding that their opponents prove the opposite. So far, all of the supposed evidence has vanished, with the exception of the fact that Charles Johnson made a word document that looks a lot like the CBS documents. At any rate, I can tell that I have nothing to contribute to this article beyond partisan invective, so I'm going to dewatch. I hope somebody will follow my suggestion and shorten this section of the article, but I don't have the patience for this crap. john k 05:16, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

So then John K, if I show you a polaroid photo of what appears to be "Bigfoot", you have to prove that such a photo cannot be genuine? Looking at your comment in that light, I find your logic puzzling. [[User:Rex071404|Rex071404

]] 05:20, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Here is an animated GIF showing LGF's microsoft word copy with the CBS photocopied memo: [16] It's not EXACT 100%, but if you think that you could do a better job on any typewriter even today, I have some Koolaid for you. Word wrapping, fyi, is not automatic on typewriters, so it would take a rather insightful typist to carriage-return at the same spots as Microsoft. Jewbacca 05:23, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC)

Adding on to what Jewbacca just stated, CBS admits that they do not have the original, but a copy. They claim it's a first generation copy, but who can really tell. Photocopies of a forgery is one of the best ways to cover the tracks of a forgery since the original can't be tested, such as age and type of ink and paper the original is made of. And how many times have you had a crappy photocopy of something that you've made that doesn't line-up with the original? If you've gone to public school, you know exactly what I mean.

John K said: At any rate, the burden of proof is all wrong here. Those claiming a forgery should have to provide actual evidence that these documents couldn't have been made on a 70s typewriter, rather than demanding that their opponents prove the opposite. That assertion is opposite to both reason and law. CBS is making a potent charge that could decide a presidency. They are saying: "Here are memos, we won't tell you where or how we got them or rom whom, just take our word for it they're genuine (and BTW we don't have the original)." Then people, including forensic experts hired by one of the nation's premiere newspapers (no bloggers there) cast reasonable doubt, and say why they think so. Since CBS is making the assertion, it is on them to prove that the memos are real (or at least give all possible information on why they believe them to be real, not just "we looked really hard and we're satisfied"), not on others to prove they're not.

It's funny, when the Swiftvets, who are all Vietnam Veterans, who include (IIRC) 17 of the 21 skippers of the other swiftboats, and the entire chain of command above Kerry, make an assertion, everyone says "how DARE they, Kerry is a war hero! These guys are OBVIOUSLY lying." Those guys, I suppose, are chopped liver? But CBS pops up with a memo, and everyone else has to prove they're not real. No media bias in this country. -- Cecropia | Talk 05:39, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Well, I thought people were saying the Swiftvets were liars because, you know, all of their allegations turned out to be lies...Sigh...must stop looking here. john k 05:42, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

What they're saying about what happened in Vietnam (not after Kerry came back) is disputed. I have no opinion of whether they or Kerry are more credible. But we're saying that 17 naval officers who served as honorably as Kerry did, plus the chain of command above Kerry are all lying, but Kerry is telling the truth. Wow, what a boy scout Kerry must be. -- Cecropia | Talk 05:47, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

However this all gets sorted out now, in a month's time, or six months, or a year, or however long it takes for this issue to settle down into a state of "generally-accepted facts" people will come back here and fix it all up to conform to that. I suspect that if we try to work out the truth before that day comes a great deal of effort will be wasted here. Bryan 05:52, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The mainstream media is all over this story, and yet, it is "right wing spin"? That's absurd. Given the information currently available, it is extremely likely this is a forgery. The best CBS has come up with, is that they know some other things that make them certain the story is true, and that we ought to ignore the evidence available to everyone, and accept their interpertation of their own private mystery evidence. The mental contortions CBS defenders have gone to, to prove that some exotic combination of typewriter parts available in 1972 could have created a memo that looks something like these ones (except for the kerning), is ridiculous. Soon they'll be saying, if Chewbacca lives on Endor, the memos must be authentic. TimShell 06:26, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt. Perhaps he's a Dan Ra^ther fan. -Joseph (Talk) 11:15, 2004 Sep 13 (UTC)

Thanks for your civility N328KF. You're a real credit to the wikipedia. I'm also pleased with the Chewbacca defense stuff. The problem with what's going on here is that nobody is interested in writing a good wikipedia article. All that is going on here is partisan point-scoring. So, fine, make fun of me. And fine, reasonable people, let these people be responsible for the tone of this article's discussion of this. john k 16:17, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Well, considering the fact that just about every single printing, font or typewriter expert weighs in on the side that these are forged, and all Time can get to prove the opposite is a typewriter repairman, the conclusion is Ra^ther inevitable. Neutrality in this case means asserting those facts, it does not mean distorting reality just so that we can make it appear as though both sides are equal. Impi 16:35, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

All that is going on here is partisan point-scoring. ROFLMYAO!! The main reason this article (and many in the Bush-Kerry series) exists is partisan point-scoring. This is why I rarely edit on such articles anymore save for things of which I have special knowledge. I look at these articles from the POV that, when the election is over, and Bush or Kerry is elected, will anyone care? If we could use that standard, a lot of articles could shrink, be combined or disappear. -- Cecropia | Talk 16:56, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Sigh, you're completely correct, Cecropia. This is all ponderous nonsense that doesn't particularly belong in an encyclopedia. Which is why I think we should keep these things as minimal as possible. Certainly there's no need to go on and on about this dispute in an article which is supposed to be about Bush's military service...if the documents are forged, they have no real bearing on Bush's "military" service (which continues to look rather dismal - c.f. the new U.S. News and World Report article, from a source not noted for its liberal bias), and if they are not forged, there's no point in going over arguments as to why people claimed they were forged. I also think it would be a lot easier to come up with text that is satisfactory to everyone as being NPOV by eliminating a lot of the detail. I would be happy with a statement that several experts have questioned the authenticity of the documents, and that CBS stands behind the story. That is all that is necessary until this thing is resolved (Yes, I realize that stellar lights of wikipedia like Impi and Joseph have decided that it already is resolved, and I could argue with them, but I'm not going to bother, and just say that there is no consensus as yet that the documents were forged). As Bryan has noted, going into more detail about this is pretty close to original research, anyway.john k 17:32, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Good point, Cecropia. john k, first of all, it's said sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, and it certainly has no place here. To make sweeping comments about the contributions of myself and Joseph to Wikipedia is rather unfair after you've read just one comment from each of us. One thing to remember about Wikipedia is that although it's an encyclopedia, it's rather different from the traditional encyclopedia that we're used to, and I don't mean in terms of being open-content. It's a real-time encyclopedia, meaning that it's also a knowledge base on current events. In that regard, detailed articles on things which are happening now do have a relevance and a place on Wikipedia. In addition, this does have a place in the controversy over Bush's military service. I mean, think about it, less than two months before the election, the Democrats are launching a major attack on Bush's military record, and suddenly these documents, which are rather damaging, appear, specifically casting a negative light on Bush's record. Whether these documents are real or not is obviously relevant to this article, just as much as Bush's record is relevant to the election. Another thing, you seem to have misinterpreted what I was saying, or perhaps I didn't make a clear enough statement. My point was that listing the opposing sides, even if the one side (in this case stating that they are forged) is either far more authoritative or credible, creates an imbalance; it is not necessarily being POV. However, to remove comments or details from one side in an attempt to "balance it out" would in this case be POV. Impi 17:51, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I thought that punning was the lowest form of wit...hmm...does turning the "th" in Dan Rather's name into a superscript qualify as a pun? I think typewriting-based humor is probably even lower than the pun. But I digress. At any rate, I could easily argue with you about whether or not "the case stating that they are forged" is, in fact, "far more authoritative or credible" than the other side. This, obviously, is where we disagree. I find that case to be hardly credible at all, and, if you insist, I am willing to argue with you about it. However, I would prefer not to, because I don't think it's that important. I'd add that these documents are hardly necessary to cast a negative light on Bush's record - the stuff that is undisputed already casts a negative light on his record. U.S. News and World Report, relying exclusively on undisputed records, is saying that Bush didn't fulfill his service, and (essentially) that he didn't deserve an honorable discharge. Meanwhile, we have these documents, whose contents, while damaging, are perfectly consistent with what we already know, and not particularly revealing. And some people, relying on their vague sense of how typewriters from the 1970s were, start saying that they must be forgeries. Experts are brought out who say various reasons that they are probably forgeries. Then, it turns out, all of the things those experts said turn out to be not true. So the same experts get trotted out again, and give different reasons why they are probably forgeries. Plus, we get such scintillating evidence as his wife saying he didn't type (this in contrast to his administrative assistant, who believes the memos are real...). And so on and so forth. Each of the individual charges has largely been answered (save the fact that some guy made a microsoft word document that mostly looks like the Killian memo, which can hardly be said to prove anything), and yet people just keep spewing out new reasons as the old ones get discredited, to give the impression that there's a piling mountain of evidence against the memos. Now, I have no idea if the memos are forged. Of course they could be. But I have also not seen anything which is remotely confusing to demonstrate that they must be forged, beyond some arguments from authority (many of them from highly dubious sources who have already been proved wrong on things they said on this subject) and claims that if Microsoft Word looks mostly the same as this document, it must have been produced in MS Word. So anyway, here I am arguing about this. And we could put all kinds of details into this article. But what on earth is the point of this? It still only tangentially related to the question of Bush's military service. At the very least, we should move the detail to the other article, and leave only a summary here. (john k)

I get what you're saying. It doesn't matter if it's a lie, because it conforms with the Greater Truth^TM! -Joseph (Talk) 19:07, 2004 Sep 13 (UTC)

*cough* Depends which Greater Tru^th you're referring to. To repeat: This article is not really about Bush's military service--it is an accusation it wasn't fulfilled. I believe that many of Kerry's supporters are fearful that the memos are forged, because they're willing to shrug them off. But there is another "greater truth," whether forged documents were used in election fraud. Remember that Watergate brought Nixon down; and what was Watergate? An attempt to steal embarassing (Nixon hoped) material from the DNC, and the coverup that followed. This is a step beyond Watergate. Imagine if Nixon, instead of looking for documents, had simply created them. This is the argument here. Because, if the documents are forged, the questions are as fascinating and potentially damaging as Watergate:

Who forged them?;
How were they forged?;
Is there a connection to the DNC or Kerry campaign?;
Why did CBS accept them so readily? They say it was a credible source. Not likely to be a Joe Blow;
How could CBS "authenticate" a copy with no original?;
What happened to the original? If it was copied, who copied them and why?

You think forgery is no big deal? It's a criminal act. And it could be election fraud. -- Cecropia | Talk 19:25, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I think you're confused. I agree fully with you—in fact, the implications for media and CBS are what spurred my own interest in this incident. I was simply stating my assessment of what JohnK was saying. -Joseph (Talk) 19:34, 2004 Sep 13 (UTC)

I wasn't referring to your posting, but to the long post you responded to. I think your (sarcastic) comment about "greater truth" is accurate. -- Cecropia | Talk 19:41, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I'll add to my previous comment. If this is forgery, it goes beyond simple forgery--when the forger placed the header of a military unit on the document, and appended a commanding officer's signature, that's falsifying a government document. Martha Stewart is doing Federal time partly because she made a small addition to a non-government document to make it appear she didn't order the sale of stock which got her into trouble for securities fraud. This is much more. -- Cecropia | Talk 19:48, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Exactly Cecropia, I think most people don't quite understand how serious this is. Trying to influence a national election through the creation of forged government documents is exceedingly serious, and could in all likelihood result in jail time for a person caught doing it. If these documents are indeed from the Kerry campaign, the damage to his chances will be irreparable. John k, I don't see how you're still disputing this, the evidence is overwhelming. Just take a look at Killian memos for a run-down of it. Think about it, this is just some of the evidence:

Killian, a man with little or no typewriting experience, would have had to use just about the most advanced typewriter of the day, which cost an exhorbitant amount, for a personal memo, whilst every single known genuine doc from TANG used ordinary monospace typewriters.
Neither the Selectric nor the Executive were capable of Kerning (or pseudo-kerning, to be more correct), which is only possible in a word processor.
The CBS documents match up EXACTLY with copies typed in MS Word using the default settings, including word-wrapping, another thing typewriters didn't have. Attempts to recreate the documents using Selectrics and Executives have failed to produce the same result.
The amount of effort required to insert a superscripted TH into a document using the above-mentioned typewriters is rather significant, involving replacing the font ball with an 8pt example, moving the roller around a lot to get to the exact spot, then carefully adding the superscript, and repeating the process to get back to normal type. Somehow I don't see a TANG officer going through all that effort just for a superscripted TH, esp when writing a memo for his personal use, and especially when known to prefer writing his memos by hand.
Each of the CBS documents has perfect tabbing and centering, something impossible in typewriters of the time, but easily accomplished in MS Word.
Only Microsoft's implementation of Times New Roman appears to create the same format as the CBS documents, using the same font in AppleWork's text editor doesn't have the same word-wrapping.

There's far more, most of which is covered in the Killian memos page. Other stuff is here. Worth reading, john k. The evidence against these documents truly is overwhelming, and it's not people with no experience in typewriters, as you infer, it's experts in the field of printing, fonts and typewriters, and people who actually used these devices, who have been instrumental in declaring these documents to be forged. Impi 20:29, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

In the interest of accuracy, I will dispute one point:

Neither the Selectric nor the Executive were capable of Kerning (or pseudo-kerning, to be more correct), which is only possible in a word processor.

First, I didn't look over the documents exhaustively, but I don't see kerning (the fitting together of individual letter pairs). Perhaps people mean letterspacing, which is not the same thing. Second, both the Executive and the Composer could kern after a fashion, if you did it manually: i.e., if you had a cap W next to a cap A, you kern them by (IIRC) pressing the unit backspace twice between the letters. But no ordinary typist would either know to do this or care, and few typographers did, either. -- Cecropia | Talk 22:02, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

P.S. Before anyone gets too excited, unless it's been introduced very recently, Microsoft Word doesn't kern either. Typesetting packages like Quark and InDesign do, automatically. -- Cecropia | Talk 22:21, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

P.P.S. I just checked. Microsoft Word 2003 does kern, if you turn it on. -- Cecropia | Talk 22:26, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

When using TrueType fonts, MS Word does kern to an extent, which you can see in the comparison docs written in word. As this is not proper kerning, I referred to it as pseudo-kerning to be a little more precise. It may not be kerning per se, but it looks very similar, and it's done automatically. In the words of Joseph M. Newcomber, PH.D: Times New Roman uses a characteristic of Microsoft TrueType fonts called the ABC dimensions, where the C dimension is the offset from the right edge of the bounding box of the character to the next character. If this offset is negative, the character with the negative C offset will overlap the character which follows (in some technologies, the distance from the start of one character to the start of another is called the “escapement”, so a negative C offset gives an escapement which is less than the character width). This gives the illusion of kerning, or what I sometimes call “pseudo-kerning”.

He has created an exhaustive analysis of the documents here, and his resume is impressive, to say the least. Impi 22:52, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Gratuitious name calling

Can someone please explain why this sentence: One coworker on the Blount campaign staff, Archibald Blount, a relative of Blount, claimed that Bush was known during this time as the "Texas Souffle", for his supposed character of looking good on the outside but not having much on the inside is in the article? I feel it adds nothing, is POV and I see no supporting information which bolsters it as actually being a fact. [[User:Rex071404|Rex071404 ]] 04:08, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

To be even-handed, I shall agree with Rex that there's no need for this sentence. john k 05:42, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Memos allegedly from Jerry Killian

I think the entire "Memos allegedly from Jerry Killian" section should be merged into the Killian memos document, leaving just a cursory explanation here. Aye? Nay? -Joseph (Talk) 05:50, 2004 Sep 13 (UTC)

Nay, they are organic to the issue at hand. -- Cecropia | Talk 05:58, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

You might say that, but the information here ties in with the other page more, and it is senseless to keep info updated in two places. We can keep the section here at a couple paragraphs. -Joseph (Talk) 06:01, 2004 Sep 13 (UTC)

The alternative would be to delete the Killian memos article, merging into this article any information not already here. I agree with Joseph's point that trying to keep two overlapping articles up to date, especially on a subject that's so hot right now, is an unnecessary burden. I have no strong preference as to which way the consolidation should go. JamesMLane 09:37, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Yes, but it's beginning to get very lengthy now. It's really approached article length in its own right. -Joseph (Talk) 11:16, 2004 Sep 13 (UTC)

I think it would make a great deal more sense to put it in its own article. For one thing, the discussion of the memo's authenticity only has any place in this article for as long as the authenticity is in dispute. That is to say, if it becomes generally concluded that the memos are forged, they would be largely irrelevant to the question of Bush's service, and would only warrant a brief note. If they are generally accepted to be genuine, then there's no real point to including detailed, discredited assertions as to their fraudulence in an article only tangentially related to them. john k 16:20, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Upon reflection, I agree with Joseph and john k, in light of the arguments they make and in light of the level of detail that's developed at Killian memos. This article about Bush's military service shouldn't get bogged down in a typeface tutorial. Of course, there has to be something here. It would be along the lines of: "Coincident with CBS News's Sept. 8 interview with Ben Barnes was the release of another set of documents related to Bush's National Guard service. The most controversial documents, allegedly from the personal files of the late Jerry Killian, were obtained by CBS News from an unnamed source. The documents were unfavorable to Bush on several aspects of his National Guard service, but their authenticity was attacked on numerous grounds; see Killian memos." I don't think that detailing the charges against Bush that would be supported by the documents is justified without better assurance of their authenticity than is now available. Therefore, instead of going into detail about the allegations (the "sugarcoating", etc.), the article should just note which way the documents cut (i.e. that these are disputed anti-Bush documents rather than disputed pro-Bush documents). JamesMLane 16:47, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I think it's high time we move on this, but I don't want to do it until most of us who have been involved, agree on that step. -Joseph (Talk) 00:09, 2004 Sep 16 (UTC)

I have completed this. Feel free to make adjustments as necessary, but please do not restore material wholesale. We should keep the bit in this article to just a paragraph or two. Killian memos is still much shorter than this article, even with the material transfer. -Joseph (Talk) 20:13, 2004 Sep 16 (UTC)

POV presentation of information

Alright, currently, we basically say he's guilty, then basically say all of this is irrelevant.

STOP TRYING TO PROVE HE'S GUILTY!

No one's mind will be changed, so let them take the confirmed information and spin their own answer. - Calmypal 13:09, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC)

Who do you say is "guilty" and of what? [[User:Rex071404|Rex071404

]] 15:12, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Calmypal was objecting to my removal of a paragraph where he was attempting to 'prove' that Bush was innocent of having failed to complete his guard duty. I removed the paragraph because it was redundant (the 50 points issue was already addressed in the article), erroneous (it listed Bush's points for only five years... Bush was in the guard for six), and based on the analysis of a person who has since admitted to errors in his conclusions and fallen back on 'but everyone violated those regulations'. He put the incorrect info back in, and rather than simply removing it again I merged it with the existing text on the subject and added corrections (the sixth year points reported, the retraction of that incorrect value, the actual value shown in the records, et cetera). This IS the 'confirmed information' and people are free to draw whatever conclusions they like. It was Calmypal who introduced partisan POV conclusions and objected when they were removed. CBDunkerson 11:34, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC)

No, I was referring to the general tone of certain comments, such as "After denying their existence for months..." The article looks much better now, actually. The point is, each side in this is right and has the documentation to prove it (and even I am that perfect). I'm amused by the fact that liberals used documenation that has turned out to be fake.

For all I care, you can keep playing with something that happened 30 or 35 years ago, but George Bush has better things to do. Just take the moral high road. - Calmypal 20:55, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC)

Don't even start debating actual issues of morality with Bush rather than only what is needed in shaping this article. The other side just has too much ammunition. --kizzle 21:42, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Rex's latest edit.

I have a small problem with the following:

"But since there is no evidence to suggest improprieties regarding Bush's discharge itself, a reasonable person could very well accept it on it's face as being self-validating. This is especially true in that allegations of having supposedly been "awol" do not in and of themselves suggest that Mr. Bush did not ultimately fulfill his service requirements, prior to being dishcarged."

The previous final sentences of the paragraph:

"Neither Bush's honorable discharge nor the statements of Guard members that they do not remember him proves anything conclusively. The discharge could have been a political favor and the recollections could be inaccurate or deliberately false"

leave the reader with a good sense of balance and let the reader decide. It is a reiteration that one can conclude either way. Rex's latest edit decides for us how we shold interpret the information, specifically that "a reasonable person" would think a certain way (or in Rex's transparent inference that the allegations are false). Despite the existence or lack thereof of evidence, the decision still should not be forced upon the reader by appealing to "a reasonable person would think X". I don't necessarily think you are wrong, Rex, in what you have added to the article, but I do believe that it is forcing us to conclude in a certain direction. The previous final sentences exhibited this balance and I move to revert, but I want to ask the community first.--kizzle 00:34, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

It is factual, the "tone down" language" that I put it. There was too much loaded innuendo in the immediately prior loaded accusation, so the "toning down" of the groundless accusations was correct. That crap about the DC sniper was simply too much. And now that people keep deleting my balancing text, I have deleted that too. The pathetic anti-Bush bile being squeezed in here by others is beginning to make my blood boil. DC sniper? Hmmmm. Why stop there? Why not list every other vile misfit who was once accused of "awol" and compare Bush to those persons too? Guilt by scurrilous, false association and innuendo - apparently some here think that's fair game! [[User:Rex071404|Rex071404

]] 06:04, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I didn't see the DC sniper stuff- if it was just comparing Bush to another supposadly AWOL person, I'm glad you took it out. Why do you not like the previous version, specifically? what implies innuendo for you, and what screams out as being biased, please? Lyellin 06:51, Sep 16, 2004 (UTC)

Lyellin, I am sorry to say this, but the edits I was forced to make in order to add some cogency and coherentcy to the "awol" accusation along with the clean-up required to yank the DC sniper crap, has sufficently changed this section so as to make referring the prior versions - as you now do, moot. At this point, I'll need to hear from you about what - if anything - you'd like to change in the section as I have currently rendered it. Frankly, if all editors here, pro-Kerry/pro-Bush/uncommitted alike would also be vigilant against anti-bush screeds like the sniper crap I removed, we would not have these discussions facing us endlessly - as these re-writes would not have to occur again and again. [[User:Rex071404|Rex071404 ]] 07:08, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I think the sniper bit can go as it's just an example and not really necessary or pertinent. But I don't think it's fair to claim that the intent was to compare Bush to the sniper personally. Let's assume good faith here. [[User:Gamaliel|Gamaliel File:Watchmensmiley20.gif]] 07:12, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The sniper bit was me and included because he is the only example I know of offhand where someone was found AWOL and then received an honorable discharge anyway. My point was that the claim 'Bush could not have been AWOL because he was honorably discharged' is inherently false... the two are not mutually exclusive. Indeed, if they were then all someone would have to do to get out of completing their service is go AWOL. I plan to put that fact back in as it is relevant (the proferred explanation is false). I suspect it might get yanked (since it directly refutes the White House response) if no example / proof is provided, but I'll leave that out unless I can find a less controversial example. For the record, I did NOT compare Bush to Muhammed. That's just Rex being Rex. CBDunkerson 11:42, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Gamaliel's revert

Just now, Gamaliel came rushing in and without discussion, restored the incoherent and disjointed "awol" text which I had just finished painstakingly cleaning up. There is absolutely no justifications for restoring that biased, disjointed mish-mosh. If it hadn't been so out of whack to begin with, I would not have had to edit it. Now we must go forward, not back. Any reverts made against those edits of mine regarding the introductory "awol" paragraphs, which tend to restore the prior problematic versions, will, if not discussed here 1st, be reverted by me. [[User:Rex071404|Rex071404 ]] 07:16, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Actually, I sauntered in.

Your edits solved the problem of an alleged anti-Bush bias by inserting a pro-Bush bias defending him and characterizing arguments against him as a "non sequitur". Your painstaking and irrelevant description of "AWOL" falsely assumes that Bush critics are complaining he wasn't living on the base or snuck out for a bender. And your unnecessary text about Terry McWhatshisname serves no other purpose but to beat the reader over the head with the word "Democrat! Democrat!" over and over again. Do you really think you have to remind people that the head of the DNC knows all the "major Democrats"? Until you stop putting this POV stuff in, I will continue to revert. [[User:Gamaliel|Gamaliel File:Watchmensmiley20.gif]]

Gamaliel the solution to your overwrought complaints is to offer alternatives here. Frankly, if you had been helping all along in keeping this from becoming the ant-Bush screed that it has become, we would not be at this juncture. I disagree with your assessment and have restored my edits. Please offer your alternative text here, so we can discusss it. And please don't attack my word choices - you are the one who had to be pointed to a dictionary definition of "purport" before you stopped deleting that on another page! -[[User:Rex071404|Rex071404 ]] 07:48, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

So it's my fault that you made POV edits? Right.

Please, I know what the damn word means. I still disagree with your use of the word in that context, I stopped removing it because I didn't want an edit war, as everything you are involved with turns into. [[User:Gamaliel|Gamaliel File:Watchmensmiley20.gif]] 07:56, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Rex could you please give a source for "spokespersons for President Bush have pointed out that he was honorably discharged". I'm curious who it was and think if we are going to include that defence it should be included.

PS Could you please answer my question on Texans for Truth? AlistairMcMillan 08:05, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Are we going to add "Bush was honorably discharged, so he is obviously faultless" to the end of every point in this article? AlistairMcMillan 08:15, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Rex, despite the false claims of your edit summaries, specific major problems with your edits have been identified. Your response is not only to not address these problems, but to ignore them, claim no problems have been identified, and reinsert them into the article. I've lost count of how many people have explained to you on a dozen talk pages that your precious edits are not a baseline, default version that must be constantly restored while you make major changes with no discussion. [[User:Gamaliel|Gamaliel File:Watchmensmiley20.gif]] 08:22, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

To Alistair... what is the source of the honorable discharge? It's this... [17] and I added two others to the article. --signed an Anon (not my real name)

My concern is quite simple. You came in to the Texans for Truth page and reverted again and again and again until it was locked. Since then you have made only a cursory attempt at dialogue on the TfT page, ignoring my repeated attempts at discussion. And now you are on GWBMSC obfuscating the paragraph about TfT, trying to dilute the plain and simple fact that there is no evidence that Bush served between May 1972 and July 1973.

And the "honorable discharge" defense, which as I pointed out is already used further down the page, does not work. It may work for a regular joe. But it does not work for Bush. Not for the son of the US Ambassador to the UN. Not for the son of a former Chairman of the RNC. Not for the son of a former Representative for Texas.

BTW I wasn't asking for a copy of the discharge papers. I was asking for the name of the spokespersons who use the "honorable discharge" defense. AlistairMcMillan 08:37, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

White House communications director Dan Bartlett AlistairMcMillan 08:39, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Alistair, please go re-read the talk page at TfT - I have indeed answered you, again and again. Now, as for this dialog here, it's about GWB, not TfT, please stay on topic. Additionally, read my comments above. Had this page not become the anti-Bush screed that it is, my edits would not have been needed. As it is, they are accurate, true and certainly in the context of the overall tone of this article, they are NPOV. I intend to defend their inclusion in the article unless and until better alternatives are offered here and discussed. As far as I am concered, when you ingored my edit summary as shown here [18], you lost credibility with me on this seciton of text. And I seee you have just now reverted again - for you same incorrect presumption that a single defnese is not valid for multiple charges. [[User:Rex071404|Rex071404 ]] 08:52, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I re-read the TfT page, you never answered my question. I asked you a simple question again and again and you never answered once. And you just gave me an answer that doesn't really tell me anything new, wonderful.

I am staying on topic. You may not have noticed, but the paragragh that you are editing is about Texans for Truth. Funny. You get the page about them blocked by your constant reverts and now you are here trying to obfuscate the plain and simple fact that there is NO EVIDENCE that Bush served between May 1972 and July 1973.

The FACT that he received an honorable discharge does not disprove the FACT that the TfT group have a point. AlistairMcMillan 09:43, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Rex, my concern about the duplication of the "honorable discharge" defense is that any time anyone adds anything new that might suggest Bush didn't serve, you will just add your "honorable discharge" defense. Which will increase the size and confusion of this already massive and very confused page. AlistairMcMillan 10:07, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I am not "obfuscating" anything!. So don't you dare say that I am! You say that TfT has a point? A point about what? That records were not well kept? So what. [[User:Rex071404|Rex071404 ]] 10:38, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

40 words explaining TfT and their ad. 171 words explaining why they are wrong. What do you call that? Turning ever single fact that is not in Bush's favour into a long convoluted screed in his defence. AlistairMcMillan 11:27, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Alisatair - go take a look at the treatment you and your ilk mete to SBVT while rebutting with Kerry's point of view. This is certainly not worse on behalf of Bush here. Also, word count is not itself a measure of anything - other than perhaps linguistic precision. The accusation of "awol" and reward for "proof" of bush completing "his service requirements" when cobbbled together into one lame-o innuendo as they are do, indeed for a non sequitur of logic. And if you can't figure ought why by now, well?. I suggest you offer your newer anit-Bush screeds for review on this talk page here 1st so they can be toned down - that's if you don't want to be reverted on them. And playing "swap the allegation" by trying to plop this, that or the other allegation in there until I miss one, ain't gonna fly either. The anti-Bush editors here started this by the building up the outrageous slander of "awol" over a very large section of text. If I debunk some of it, it's not wrong to do so, provided what I say is accurate. I see no complaints from you about the accuracy of my edits now, do I? [[User:Rex071404|Rex071404 ]] 16:16, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The term AWOL is used by opponents of GWB as a short hand for the allegations that they are making, not as a technical accusation. The real accusation in more nuanced, that GWB got into the National Guard because of his father's status and pull and that after he was in he didn't fulfill his obligations but wasn't disciplined because of his father's status and pull. As part of his alleged failure to fulfill his obligations, it is claimed that he failed to respond to orders to have a medical check up to keep his flight status and that he didn't show up for duty for about a year. As you can see, this accusation doesn't fit neatly in a headline, so to make it punchier, he accusers use AWOL. I think that this article is well served by having a paragraph critically examining this use of the term AWOL, but the User:Rex071404's dismissal of the accusation doesn't cut it for me. Edwinstearns 16:43, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Edwinstearns, I categorically reject your patently false suggestion that the DNC, et al have not actually accused Bush of being "awol" per se. They have indeed accused him of precisely that. Regardless of the unfounded speculations about usage which you offer here, the charge has indeed been laid and an NPOV article demands that Bush's perspective be allowed in to rebut. As did Alistair above, you have failed to address the truthfulness or the accuracy of the Bush perspective items I added. Unless and until you do, I am defending the edits in that section. [[User:Rex071404|Rex071404

]] 17:04, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

If it truly is slander, why have both a $10,000 and $50,000 prize gone unanswered? --kizzle 17:39, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Simple: The so-called "reward" - which is nothing more than partisan grandstanding, sets an impossible-to-meet standard - that being "prove" the partisan accuser's satisfaction, something which is already readily evident to an unbiased observer. Harping about this "reward" is nothing more than anti-Bush POV grandstanding. [[User:Rex071404|Rex071404 ]] 17:42, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

you're right. the very fact that he was honorably discharged without a doubt proves that he wasn't AWOL. there you go, Rex, submit that for the $50,000 prize, I know you could use the money. if he did serve, where is the paper trail? --kizzle 17:48, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

by the the power invested in me by the Wikipedia gods, I hereby ban for all time the use of the phrase "patently false" "patently wrong" or "patently" anything. just say it's wrong or false.--kizzle 17:51, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I think kizzle's suggestion is manifestly correct. JamesMLane 17:59, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

That's a patently ridiculous suggestion! john k 18:57, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

only took an hour for that one :) --kizzle 19:21, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

latest edit

This large-scale rewrite of this article is unwarranted. I smell POV but frankly i need to calm down before I respond to this edit. --kizzle 19:30, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

You are being entirely too kind. Those edits were complete nonsense. How is the CONTENT of the 'Killian memos' POV? Rex yanked, "This memo also indicates that Killian requested a flight inquiry board be held, as required by regulations, to examine the reasons for Bush's loss of flight status.". The memo in question includes the words, "I conveyed my verbal orders to commander, 147th Ftr-Intercep Gp with request for orders for suspension and convening of a flight review board IAW AFM 35-13." There is no 'POV' here... simple fact, but it somehow offends Rex so hey... he just yanks it. And lots of other perfectly valid and unbiased stuff. For instance, I corrected a passage that >I< wrote in the first place to say that 'Defenders of Bush' make a claim which I had at first incorrectly attributed to Bush himself... why the heck was THAT put back to the wrong text. What do we have to do to keep this guy from continually trashing the page for no apparent reason?CBDunkerson 22:25, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Restoration of edits

In keeping with my expectation that editors who are dissatisfied with recent my edits to the "awol" section ought to acknowledge and answer the above dialog regarding that, I have again reverted the unjustified deletions of that text. I ask that the editors take note of the intentionally mocking tone of Gamaliel's most recent dialog-avoidance-edit here. [[User:Rex071404|Rex071404 ]] 20:04, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I've posted a number of serious problems with the POV material you are repeatedly inserting into the article without any dialogue or discussion. You have not commented on or addressed these problems, nor have you even acknowledged that they have been identified. And you claim others are avoiding dialogue? What color is the sky on your planet? [[User:Gamaliel|Gamaliel File:Watchmensmiley20.gif]] 20:10, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I am not going to respond to Gamaliel if he persists in making insults and mocking statements. Gamaliel; if indeed you have concerns with certain of my edits, please list the (3) most important ones immediately below this comment. I will address them STAT or as soon as reasonably possible. Also, as stated above, I did not create the problems with that section. Rather, others who went so far as to compare Bush to the DC Sniper did. Here again, is my position as previously stated on this page: "If it hadn't been so out of whack to begin with, I would not have had to edit it. Now we must go forward, not back. Any reverts made against those edits of mine regarding the introductory "awol" paragraphs, which tend to restore the prior problematic versions, will, if not discussed here 1st, be reverted by me."

[[User:Rex071404|Rex071404 ]] 20:18, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Apparently you are persisting in the bizarre fiction that no one has engaged you in any dialogue about these edits or presented any problems with them yet. You are perfectly capable of scrolling up yourself to see the original comments I made pointing out these problems. But in case you want to claim carpal tunnel or persist in your delusion that no one attempted any dialogue with you, I will reprint my comments here. Set the wayback machine for twelve whole hours ago, Sherman! [[User:Gamaliel|Gamaliel File:Watchmensmiley20.gif]] 20:28, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Your edits solved the problem of an alleged anti-Bush bias by inserting a pro-Bush bias defending him and characterizing arguments against him as a "non sequitur". Your painstaking and irrelevant description of "AWOL" falsely assumes that Bush critics are complaining he wasn't living on the base or snuck out for a bender. And your unnecessary text about Terry McWhatshisname serves no other purpose but to beat the reader over the head with the word "Democrat! Democrat!" over and over again. Do you really think you have to remind people that the head of the DNC knows all the "major Democrats"? Until you stop putting this POV stuff in, I will continue to revert. [[User:Gamaliel|Gamaliel File:Watchmensmiley20.gif]]

Talk:George W. Bush military service controversy

Contents

Figure/timeline, please

Flight Physicals

William Turnipseed

new info

A Break

Signature

Selectric + Times New Roman

Mr. Matley

The son speaks about the "memos"

Reserve commitments

More challenges about whether Bush documents are authentic

Killian Memo Has Wrong Deadline, Cites Wrong Regulation

It's possible

Graphical timeline - can we get it into SVG?

Typewriter evaluation

Partisan Conflicts of Interest

Source of documents

Ah, repeating right wing spin...

Gratuitious name calling

Memos allegedly from Jerry Killian

POV presentation of information

Rex's latest edit.

Gamaliel's revert

latest edit

Restoration of edits

Navigation menu

Talk:George W. Bush military service controversy

Figure/timeline, please

Flight Physicals

William Turnipseed

new info

A Break

Signature

Selectric + Times New Roman

Mr. Matley

The son speaks about the "memos"

Reserve commitments

More challenges about whether Bush documents are authentic

Killian Memo Has Wrong Deadline, Cites Wrong Regulation

It's possible

Graphical timeline - can we get it into SVG?

Typewriter evaluation

Partisan Conflicts of Interest

Source of documents

Ah, repeating right wing spin...

Gratuitious name calling

Memos allegedly from Jerry Killian

POV presentation of information

Rex's latest edit.

Gamaliel's revert

latest edit

Restoration of edits

Navigation menu

Search