Talk:English language

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Dialects

The dialect box is out of control. Part of it has to do with the fact that the word "dialect" invites a free-for-all. Plus, not only is it open to "vanity"-dialect pages but its format takes up too much space. For example, how many times must "English" be repeated?

I would love to work with someone more familiar with the code/tech aspect of the box. I'm already working on a re-classification of the dialects into varieties. Also, the French dialect box works very well and can be used for inspiration.

There will be discussion needed to decide whether some varieties are national or regional varieties, but I'll bring that up on the dialects page.

CJ Withers 22:35, 12 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

English as a global language

"There are numerous arguments for and against English as a global language." No arguments are actually given for the pro side, only some general statements about the utility of any global language are made. Are there no features unique to English where it may be better suited than say Esperanto? (Besides pre-existing massive adoption) --belg4mit 71.192.58.23 16:19, 19 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There is the fact that it's a real as opposed to an artificial language. Jimp 09:32, 6 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
But this is really more a disadvantage. Esperanto is real enough that plenty of people speak it quite happily and fluently. The fact that English is the native language of large numbers of people actually makes it a bad candidate for anything but de facto international status. Its use internationally gives an enormous (and I mean enormous) economic and cultural advantage to the English-speaking nations. This is clearly unfair. The advantage of Esperanto is that no one really speaks it natively (though there are a few cases). A disasvantage of it, as stated below, is its European bias. Garik 17.06, 7 May 2006 (BST)
I don't see how anything can be said to have "advantages and disadvantages" for being something that's an inherently bad idea, like a global language. Angr (talk • contribs) 16:23, 7 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It's certainly unfair to say no arugments for English as a global language have been put forward. I can think of one very good reason in particular, which is that it already has such a strongly established foothold in the global environment. Not to say I support a global language, English or no, but both sides have points. Czoller
I think what they mean is, no arguments for the pro side are put forward in the article, which is quite negative about the issue (hence the NPOV tag). Angr (t • c) 15:40, 19 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Another problem is that the author claims Esperanto belongs to no one single ethnic group, but it is criticized in the Esperanto article for being largely Slavic and Western European in origin and structure. Could someone rewrite this? I sense I would muddle the issue.

I added an NPOV tag to this section. The second and third paragraphs need to rewritten for neutrality and should probably be moved to a comprehensive article on English as global language after corrections are made. The paragraphs were structured to take a pro/con position on making English a global language and this case, the pro/con was an artificial ploy to show neutrality when in fact the author focused on the con position to take an obviously biased position. For example,

"English has been implicated in a number of historical and ongoing so-called 'language deaths' and 'linguicides' around the world, many of which have also led to the loss of cultural heritage. Language death caused by English has been particularly pronounced in areas such as Australia and North America where speakers of indigenous languages have been displaced or absorbed by speakers of English in the process of colonisation.

In addition to having no citation and no specifics to back up the specious claim, the statement is a fallacy of false cause. If you want to say that English speaking governments made or implemented political policies to coerce the speaking of English or eliminate other languages, that's fine assuming it's a historical fact. For example, during the Soviet Union era, the Russian language was imposed through education policy and the use of native languages such as Georgian & Armenian, and other minority languages were severely restricted. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.27.210.84 (talk • contribs) 15:26, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

English speaking in Guam

The article stated that English is an important "minority" language in Guam and Maritius. I can't speak for the latter, but for Guam, English is the most widely spoken. The native language of Guam is Chamorro (Chamorro is also the name given to the natives). More Chamorros speak English than the native language. There are some who speak both fluently, but they're becoming increasingly a minority. Also, amongst the non-Chamorros, English is used almost exclusively in inter-ethnic social settings, in virtually all commerce activity, and exclusively for government business. For example, while Koreans may speak Korean in personal gatherings or business settings when only Koreans are present, while interacting with non-Koreans, English is the language used almost always. Chamorro is listed as one of the official languages of Guam along with English, but this is more of a symbolic gesture than anything else since English is the predominant language in any official setting and in many personal settings.


Urgent! Contradictions

I the first paragraph, it is written quite clearly that "English is currently the most widely spoken and written language worldwide", however, in the Geographic Distribution Paragraph, the article states that "English is the third most widely spoken language in the world today". Please correct accordingly.

What's a cribhouse?

Pagingmrherman asked "What's a cribhouse?" and red-linked the word in the James Nicoll quote. I removed the link as the word will probably never need an encyclopedia article, but it's still a fair question. Apparently it's an ill-attested word, but a discussion at the LINGUIST list got this answer:

"Cribhouse", says J L Speranza, is based on "crib", an old word for brothel. I don't see this def. in the OED entry for "crib", but the attested senses of 'narrow wooden bed'; 'small habitation, cabin, hovel; narrow room; confined space'; and (thieves' slang) 'a dwelling house, shop, public house' could easily lead to a meaning extension to 'whorehouse'.

Further discussion of the quote, including James Nicoll pointing out it was an off-the-cuff remark, never intended to become widely read, is found here. Angr (talk • contribs) 14:15, 28 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

English English

There is very little mention of English English; English that developed in England, hence the name English! For instance, the phonetics table talks about North American English primarily but that is not the actual English Language; some call it American English etc.

  • Don't get too bent out of shape over what is "the actual English Language." It's all English. By your logic, English English isn't "the actual English Language" either because that distinction would be given only to Old English. Language always has and always will change and develop into different dialects. The articles American English and English English exist, so link to them if you feel this article lacks balance. Don't whine. Be proactive. -- Hraefen 18:31, 9 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Redundancies in the British Empire?

What's the difference between "and other former British colonies" and "formerly under British rule", which are used in adjacent sentences in the first paragraph? Don't these phrases mean the same thing? Stifynsemons 07:26, 15 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

English language teaching statistics and poor source

I replaced the unsourced statistic on English language teaching (32.6% English followed by French, German, Spanish in that order) with statistics from the EU statistics website. These statistics state what exactly the number means (proportion of schoolchildren being taught) and give statistics for the other languages. I think the old statistics were probably accurate though (whatever they actually meant), as they had the languages in the correct order.

I also removed this external link: The 10 largest countries in the world that in the main speak English as their main tongue. Not only is the page badly written and full of annoying ads, the figures are pretty vague and inaccurate. Hairy Dude 00:50, 17 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Statistics!!!!

380 million? really? the US is 280 million, the UK is 60 million, and Im sure Australia, Canada, and New Zealand have more than 40 million people.... not counting english as a first language in Ireland, South Africa, India, Commonwealth countries, etc. Could we have a double-check of the math here? Sharwood april 25, 2006

As of yet, Wikipedia articles refuse to post real statistics on the number of first and second language speakers of English and instead rely on Ethnologue. As a linguist who has worked in Papua, Indonesia I can attest that most of the information provided by Ethnologue is highly inaccurate.
Wikipedia articles don't "refuse to post real statistics". It's just that in most cases Ethnologue is the only citable source that gives statistics. For any language, whether Papuan or English, if you have more reliable statistics than Ethnologue's in a verifiable, reliable source, by all means use that instead! Angr (talk • contribs) 06:20, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Why would I post statistics on the Papuan languages I have studied and the peoples I have documented? There are no articles here regarding them and no one would bother to read the articles anyway. The fact is that on the languages I studied Ethnologue underestimated the number of native speakers by more than 50%, whereas on some of the largest Papuan languages they overestimated them by up to 50%. If you say that Wikipedia doesn't refuse to post real statistics, why is it that on its list of most native speakers it lists the US with 308 million native speakers and only 200 million second language speakers?
Well, you might write articles on the Papuan languages you have studied and then post statistics on them. Wikipedia is a collaborative effort, after all, and you are probably one of the very few people in the world in the position to say something more about Papuan languages than what can be gleaned from Ethnologue. (Unfortunately if your research hasn't been published yet, it can't be used here because of Wikipedia's policy of No original research.) I think you're mistaken that no one would read them, though; there are lots of "language geeks" here who would enjoy reading about Papuan languages. I know I would. If the statistics on English speakers are wrong, and you have verifiable, reliable sources with which to back up the correct statistics, please do so! No one is refusing to use accurate statistics, but different people find stats from different sources that say different things. If you look through the history of the English language page you'll see how many different people have contributed to the article, and they're all volunteers. If you find an error you know how to fix, it's much more helpful to actually go ahead and fix it than to complain about it on the talk page. Angr (talk • contribs) 22:11, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Here are some more statistics: British Council FAQs, British Council - The Future of English (pdf) (see pages 8, 10), Ellis - Industry Information (ESL), Worldwide Distribution of English Speakers. Apparently many US residents are not native speakers of English. -- Avenue 10:15, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

English as Official Language

I think extra emphasis should be added to the fact that English is NOT the official language of the United States government (although many States have adopted English as their official language). This is a very common misconception. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.43.45.250 (talk • contribs) .

I have to disagree ... at least with respect to this page. The page is about English not US law. If we add emphasis here, we should emphasise the law of every country. Is there room? Jimp 09:38, 6 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Jimp. We already explain this fact clearly in the Geographic distribution section, and we do not cover similar legal oddities in other countries. Given the length of this article, it might even be worth cutting back on the detail, since it is covered more thoroughly in our article on Languages in the United States. -- Avenue 09:59, 6 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It is stated as the official language in the article, this should be changed.
No, it's called a de facto official language, which means it isn't the official language, but it feels like one. Angr (talk • contribs) 19:09, 7 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Map

Shouldnt Namibia be on there? It's the only official language, although only 7% of the population speaks it.


Other missing countries where English has official status, if only spoken by some of the population, include Ghana, Malta, Seychelles, Kenya, Uganda, Rwanda, Singapore, Mauritius, Fiji, Tanzania, Papua New Guinea, Tonga, Samoa and also sub-country areas such as Hong Kong, South Sudan and Puerto Rico where English is an official language?

Could we have a second colour for Nepal, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Malaysia and maybe Myanmar where English is widley spoken (see British Council - The Future of English (pdf)) but not an official language? (Sorry I dont know how to do this myself)

Nickhk

Paupa New Guinea should also be on there. CharlesMartel 17:26, 13 May 2006 (UTC)CharlesMartel[reply]

The Overseas Territories should not be ignored!

In the map showing the distribution of English speakers, the British Overseas Territories of the Falkland Islands, South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands, as well as the Pitcairn Islands should also be counted, as the English language prevails over these territories.

14:31, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Repetition Ad Infinitum

About 300 million and 758 times, this article says "English is the most commonly learned second language" or a variation thereof. Haggard. <<<<<DR. SHIO>>>>> 66.82.9.31 17:23, 29 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes well, that's what happens when you have about 300 million and 758 different authors of an article! Still, point taken... Angr (talk) 20:08, 29 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

South Africa and the Caribbean

In the introductory paragraph South Africa is listed as a country where English is the dominant language, and until my last edit no mention was made of the Anglophone Caribbean. I think this is is a little inaccurate and may, unintentionally, give the impression of being culturally biased.

In South Africa, English is undoubtedly the dominant language of business and the media, particularly since the end of Apartheid and consequent decline in the prestige of and state support for Afrikaans. However, in terms of home language speakers, English lags well behind Afrikaans (15% of South Africans' home language), Zulu (24%), Xhosa (18%) and SeSotho and is only narrowly ahead with Northern Sotho in terms of native speakers. Afrikaans continues to be the most widely spoken second language in South Africa and the lingua franca of most of the Cape while Zulu is increasing in prestige and utility as a lingua franca in Eastern South Africa.

The Caribbean, on the other hand, contains many nations where English is the sole or dominant language, and indeed is a major unifying factor behind the continued cultural, sporting and economic links between former British colonies in the Caribbean. The Anglophone Caribbean has made widespread cultural contributions to the English speaking world more widely - think Bob Marley, Grace Nichols and the West Indies cricket team. I'd suggest a bit of tweaking is needed here but didn't want to jump in with both feet. Gerry Lynch 22:48, 8 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Bob Marley I've heard of, the other two I haven't. Your point is well taken, but we mustn't forget that the native language of most people in the Anglophone Caribbean isn't English either, but rather one of many English-lexified creoles. Angr (talk) 07:15, 9 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Haven't heard of the West Indies cricket team... cough, choke... ;-) Seriously, your point on creoles is well taken although Caribbean Creoles tend in daily usage to sit on a continuum with English and not with their other ancestor languages.
I think the more pertinent point is that English is not the dominant language of South Africa in the way it is of the UK, USA, Australia or even, say, Ireland. It is the home language of only ~10% of the population and while it is the first language of business and the media, it is rivalled by Afrikaans in those spheres, and co-exists with either Afrikaans or Zulu as a lingua franca in most of South Africa. Gerry Lynch 09:47, 9 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't even know there were crickets in the West Indies, let alone that they had organized a team. Angr (talk) 10:06, 9 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Order of countries in first sentence

First, my apologies for not looking back far enough in the edit history. I thought I was simply reverting an unmotivated change. (However, comments by the 82.x.x.x person would have helped....) Secondly, I actually no see reason why having the U.K. first is more sensible; i.e., the very use of the relevance of your claim that it's a "historically more sensible order" needs to be established. Why not: "more sensible order by number of native speakers"? It is biased to assume that that which comes first is primary. Cultural Freedom talk 16:32, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The other citeria is the order of the sentence, which mentions the UK, then the US, then other former parts of the British Empire. By putting the US first, someone who didn't know might assume that the British Empire was primarily a US insitution. TharkunColl 16:35, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • The United States should be categorized in the same position as all other former British colonies that have become independent, such as Australia, Canada, etc. Placing the United States above all other nationally acclaimed English-speaking countries is simply biased. I am not from the United Kingdom, so please don't assume this is my personal POV. — CRAZY`(IN)`SANE 18:24, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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