Talk:Paragraph 175

Hi, I've expanded the article. But since I'm German (and actually live in Germany), I don't know if my is English is quite correct and idiomatic. So someone should check this article linguistically ;-) -Lysis 02:33 21. Jun 2004 (UTC)

I've been monitoring your changes to the article, and it looks as though you've done well (linguistically, that is). Keep up the good work :) -- Grunt 02:34, 2004 Jun 21 (UTC)

Liberals? Supreme Court?

Two phrases in the opening section of the article are ambiguous:

1. "support of leading Social Democrats, some Liberals, and the Communist Party": does liberals here mean a particular party (e.g. the National Liberal Party) or should it be small-l liberals?
2. "supreme court": would that be the Constitutional Court (the Bundesverfassungsgericht) or the Federal Court of Justice (Bundesgerichtshof) or some other body I don't know about?

Jmabel 05:47, Aug 31, 2004 (UTC)

ad 1) "Some Liberals" refers to the Deutsche Demokratische Partei (German Democratic Party, or DDP). The liberals of the 19th century were split during the Weimar Republic into a left wing and a right wing. The left wing (the DDP) was pro free market, but also radically democratic, the right wing (Deutsche Volkspartei/German People's Party, or DVP) was like Bismarck: nationalist and anti-socialist. Both were only small parties, but hardly any government coalition was possible without them. They don't exist any more. Nowadays, the Free Democratic Party covers both wings, but the right has become a minority within the party.

ad 2) "Supreme court" refers to the Constitutional Court, not the Federal Court of Justice. --Amys 21:47, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

1935

Our article currently says "In 1935, the Nazis exacerbated the law so that the police could pursue any homosexual act whatsoever (even an embrace or a kiss)." While I am aware that this was the actual Nazi policy, now that I've read and translated the 1935 statute, I see nothing in the text that gave sanction to that policy. This sentence predates my involvement in the article. Unless someone can give evidence for the statement as it stands, I intend to reword to make clear that the Nazi persecution of homosexuals went even beyond the harsh letter of the law. -- Jmabel 18:55, Sep 2, 2004 (UTC)

That's not really the case. The problem is the interpretation of the word Unzucht, which is not renderable in English. Roughly it means "fornication". But in German you can also speak of an unzüchtiger Blick (a lewd glance). By deleting the word "unnatural" in the legal expression "unnatural fornication between men", the term Unzucht took on a completely different meaning, not being constricted to anal intercourse anymore. It would now refer to any "lewd act". This interpretation was not specific to Nazi Germany. Rather, the courts in the Federal Republic understood the term in quite a similar way. Compare this note:

zu § 175: Durch Streichung des Wortes "widernatürlich" wurde die traditionsreiche Einschränkung auf sogenannte "beischlafsähnliche Handlungen" (Anal-, Oralverkehr) beseitigt. Der Straftatbestand war erfüllt, wenn "objektiv das allgemeine Schamgefühl verletzt und subjektiv die wollüstige Absicht vorhanden war, die Sinneslust eines der beiden Männer oder eines Dritten "[zu]"erregen"(RGSt 73, 78, 80 f). Eine gegenseitige Berührung war ab jetzt nicht mehr erforderlich.

Nach Kriegsende hielt der BGH an der erweiterten Auslegung fest, gleichzeitige Onanie wurde ebenso wie der Zuschauer beim Triolenverkehr nach § 175 bestraft. Der BGH leitete aus dem Merkmal "treiben" die Forderung nach einer Handlung, die "stets eine gewisse Stärke und Dauer haben" (BGHSt 1, 293 ff) müsse, ab. [1]

The last paragraph roughly says:

After the end of the war the Federal Court of Germany (BGH) retained the expanded interpretation (that no physical contact had to take place). Masturbating next to each other was punished according to paragraph 175 the same way as the spectator of a Menage a Trois was. The BGH derivated from the German word treiben (roughly "carry on to commit") the demand that the punishable acts had to "have a certain intensity and duration".

--Amys 01:26, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll try to clarify that in the article itself. BTW, any chance you could help with that one sentence I've been unable to translate confidently & left in the original German? I'd pinged Carlo Ierna, but I guess he's not logged in for a while. -- Jmabel 06:57, Sep 5, 2004 (UTC)

Draft penal code (E 1962)

Since I haven't actually seen this, and since it is mentioned only in passing, I didn't think this was appropriate to add to the references, but if anyone finds it useful, the Draft penal code (E 1962) was apparently translated into English and published. (The translation used in this article, however, is our own.)

• The German draft penal code E 1962. With an introd. by Eduard Dreher. Translated by Neville Ross, South Hackensack (New Jersey): F. B. Rothman, 1966

May 15, May 17

Yes, the article dates the law from May 15, 1871, then calls May 17, 2002 the anniversary. I'm clueless, too. I translated this from the German. I've asked the obvious question on the German-language discussion page. -- Jmabel 06:57, Sep 9, 2004 (UTC)

Oh no, the 17th of May (17-5) is not the anniversary of paragraph 175. It is a symbolic play with numbers. Compare the German Wikipedia article 17. Mai (Holidays and days of remembrance):

"Day of shame: formerly, the 17th of May (17.5. in German notation) was ironically called the 'holiday of gays' in Germany, an allusion to paragraph 175, which punished homosexuality (it was liberalised in 1969 and finally abolished in 1994)." --Amys 21:04, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Review by a German-speaker would be very welcome

I've done my darnedest to translate this. In some places, my text doesn't follow the original German exactly. There are several reasons for this:

1. In some places, the original German had some pretty hairy sentences. I've done my best to make them less obscure.
2. I've added context in some places, where the German Wikipedia assumes knowledge of German history that I thought would be unfamiliar to most English-speakers.
3. The article was changing even as I translated. In fact, it was moved when I was about halfway through it.
4. Don't shoot me, but... my German is decent, but I don't have the confidence here I would have in English or Spanish (or maybe even a couple of other Romance languages). I may well have made errors. Review by a native or near-native German speaker would be very welcome.

Jmabel 07:04, Sep 9, 2004 (UTC)

I've written most parts of the German article and will review the English translation within the next few days (you've really done good work as far as I can see!). I've already corrected some slight mistakes. But I hope, you will check my corrections, too, with respect to linguistics, because I'm never sure if "one can say that in English". One last question: Is it really necessary to provide so much German vocabulary in brackets? I don't think, it necessarily helps understanding to know the legal terms in the original. --Amys 21:28, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)