Talk:Liancourt Rocks/Archive 5

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Archives
Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3

POV

ALL of the references (in the References section, that is) are Korean. As this is a dispute between Japan and Korea, there should be references from both Japan and Korea, as well as references to articles and information found outside of either country. --日本穣 Nihonjoe 03:40, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Just because the references are from Korea does not mean the article itself is NPOV - many editors have agreed that the article itself is NPOV. The references are mostly about Climate/Geography/Tourism/Residents, which were mostly only available from Korean pages anyway. I don't think this constitutes a violation of "NPOV" policy, as long as the article itself stays neutral. I think your argument was perceived valid on the External Links section - there used to be a predominance of Korean materials. So there is now 2 Korean, 2 Japanese, and 2 Neutral (western) external links. Deiaemeth 03:50, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

That may be, but it would do a great deal toward reducing any perceived bias by including several non-Korean articles as references. If someone (like me, for instance) came upon this article which is obviously about some islands whose ownership is disputed heatedly by two countries, and they saw (as I did) that all of the references cited in the article were Korean, what conclusion do you think they would draw from that? Likely the same as mine: that that article is very likely biased toward the Korean POV. I strongly suggest finding 3-5 Japanese or other non-Korean articles that can be referenced for this article. Some of the External links may prove useful in that respect. --日本穣 Nihonjoe 03:59, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

I guess that could be arranged, but since most of the article is referenced, I don't know what to reference further. But the referenced materials itself aren't POV'd, as it is mostly about climage/geography/tourism/residents. The island itself is de facto administered by Korea, so most of the information is from Korean pages. Likewise, even though the ownership of Pinnacle Islands (Senkaku Islands) is disputed, since Japan maintains de facto control, many materials are cited from the Japanese page (even though it has an NPOV tag, the dispute is with the history of the island/current situation, not with the references itself). Deiaemeth 04:04, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps the overwhelming evidence points to Korean ownership of the islands. Have you ever thought about that? Feel free to add (relevant) evidence to the contrary.--Sir Edgar 00:58, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Overwhelming evidence!? I have to say most of evidence on Korean side isn't truthful. But I am not going to discuss whether it is reliable or not. We should discuss whether this article is POV or NPOV. I believe this article is too much on Korean side. For example, this article regards 石島(Seok-do) as Liancourt Rocks. But Japanese government does not think so. This description should be like this.

"On October 25, 1900, the Korean Empire issued incorporating the islands of Ulleung-do, Juk-do (竹島), and Seok-do (石島) into Ulleung county. Korean government regards Seok-do as the island now they call Dok-do because 石島(Seok-do) is pronounced "Dok-do" in the Gyeongsang dialect and the Jeolla dialect. Japan, however, claims it to be the different island now called Kwaneum-do(관음도) because of lack of evidence that makes Seok-do the same island as Liancourt Rocks."

This article also says "Ahn had the Tokugawa Shogunate confirm in writing that Ulleung-do and the Liancourt Rocks were Korean possessions." But this is Korean insistence. It is true that Tokugawa Shogunate admited Ulleung-do as Korean posession but the ban on voyage to Ulleung-do did not referred to Liancourt Rocks. So this description should be like this.

"Ahn had the Tokugawa Shogunate confirm in writing that Ulleung-do were Korean possessions. But as for Liancourt Rocks, it is in question that Tokugawa Shogunate regarded the islets as Korean possessions because Liancourt Rocks were not refered to in this treaty. Korean government insists that Ulleung-do included Liancourt Rocks too. Japan insists that the Shogunate did not prohibited going to the islets because Japanese fishers continued to fish using Liancourt Rocks even after the prohibition on voyage to Ulleung-do. Japan and Korea have very different understanding of this incident because the remaining documents are so ambiguous that it is not easy to interpret what islands it is referring to."

This "Liancourt Rocks" article is too much on Korean side as demonstrated above. Especially the "Reference". They are all on Korean side and says the rocks are Korean territory. "Truth of Dokdo" says "Ahn Yongbok went to Japan and confirmed that Dokdo was Korean territory and prohibited Japanese fishermen from fishing near Dokdo." But this is just a Korean understanding and Japan does not regarding so as I described above.

"Tour 2 Korea" says "Dokdo Island is in the eastern reaches of Korea's territory" and that "After The Japanese Invasion of Korea in 1592, Japanese fishermen often came near Ulleungdo and Dokdo. Sukjong Sillok, the Annals of King Sukjong(1674-1720), records that An Yongbok went twice to Japan in order to protest against Japanese nationals trespassing into Korean territory. He asked the Japanese authorities to recognize Korea's sovereignty over these islands and to forbid Japanese nationals to sail to these islands." This website affirms that Liancourt Rocks are Korean territory. Do you say this is no POV? This description also sound that there is some relation ship between the Korean invasion and the islets but there's no evidence which proves that and "there is no record of the exact date of Takeshima's discovery" ([1]). As for An Youngbok, Japan have a different understanding as I said.

All the other website linked to from "Reference" says the islets are Korean territory. How can you say they are not POV websites?

There are also a lot of websites saying the islests are Japanese teritorry (unfortunately, most of them are in Japanese). If we keep adding links those websites, this article would get into a panic. In order to maintain neutral point of view, the reference should not be here. -Michael Friedrich 17:02 14/05/2006

What I was trying to say is that there are only vague references to the islets in Japanese records. Most Japanese records are from 1905, when Japan assumed control of Korea. Nobody is stopping you from editing the context of any sentences. Please do so, if it you feel it is justified.--Sir Edgar 00:01, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Seems like you know nothing about Japanese insistence. It is not true that most Japanese records are from 1905. Japan had kept using the rocks for 300 years. I've got a lot of evidence that can indicates the Rocks are Japanese territory and that can break most of the Korean claims. But we're not talking about it. I tried to edit a few times but there are some trying to stopping me from editing. I was even blocked from editting it unfairly. ---Michael Friedrich 10:15 17/05/2006

Request

Can someone please clear up those "citation needed" tags by clarifying references, or whatever? It's really an eyesore to read like this, honestly. Mr Tan 04:12, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Per WP:V, any statement which is not verified upon request can be removed. If those tags have been there for a while, the statements should probably be pulled from the article. -- Visviva 04:47, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

"Liancourt Rocks" and "Senkaku Islands"?

There seems to be inequality in the titling of these two articles.

If South Korea controls the Liancourt Rocks, it should be able to name the islets whatever it wants (i.e. "Dokdo"). The conservative Japanese government and a minority of right-wing Japanese citizens only challenge South Korean authority with a weak claim that primarily focuses on 1905 documents (the same year that Japan assumed sovereignty over Korea).

The Senkaku/Diaoyutai Islands are under Japanese control. The article is entitled "Senkaku Islands". This is despite the fact that the Chinese have an older history with the islets (since the Ming Dynasty). According to the Wikipedia article, Japan "waited until 14 January 1895, during the middle of the First Sino-Japanese War" to make a claim on the islands.

So, it seems to me that Japanese claims to both the Liancourt Rocks and the Senkaku Islands are post-1895 (the beginning of Japan's expansion abroad phase).

Is it just me who sees the disparity in treatment of titles? I suggest the articles be entitled, respectively:

1. "Liancourt Rocks" and "Pinnacle Islands"; or

2. "Dokdo" and "Senkaku Islands"

Any thoughts?--Sir Edgar 00:39, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I think that's an unfair and simplified characterization of the Lliancourt rocks problem. In Japan, it is referred to Takeshima by EVERYONE (and the naming dispute "the Takeshima dispute"). Many newspapers will put out the Korean name as well though, both pronounciation and the actual kanji (独島 as opposed to the Japanese 竹島). I follow the debate in Japanese media and I think the media coverage is fairly balanced. I have little knowledge of what is going on in Korea but considering the Sea of Japan naming dispute and how Korea insisted on "Korea Japan FIFA World Cup" (instead of the by FIFA proposed Japan Korea (alphabetic order)) because in French Korea (Corea) comes in front of Japan, I am more doubtful of the Korean motives. Mackan 02:32, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Erm, if you read the FIFA 2006 Korea/Japan World Cup, it was the Japanese Gov't which was warned for issuing the tickets as FIFA 2006 Japan/Korea World Cup (later warned not to do so by FIFA). Also, this draws interests to the Senkaku Islands situation as well. In China, the Senkaku Islands are refered as Diaoyutai Islands by everyone, even though Japan maintains de facto control of the islands. Regardless whether you think Korean or Japanese media is more balanced, I'm not sure how the NPOV policy works in Wikipedia if one article refers to the name used by the controlling party, and the other article uses the name that is supposedly more neutral. If we were not to maintain such double standards, the Senkaku Islands should be changed to Pinnacle Islands, or Liancourt Rocks to Dokdo. Whichever one is more fair is I guess upto the editors here. Deiaemeth 03:39, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

If you re-read the article, you will find that FIFA originally suggested Japan-Korea but Korea insisted on the French spelling order, i.e. Corea-Japon, which FIFA for whatever reason agreed to. But yes, Japan also tried and sell the tickets as "Japan Korea" for domestic games. Both acted rather childishly but I think Korea has a tendency to go too far too often.Mackan 11:17, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

About Korea/Japan World Cup. That was a compromise among two countries and FIFA. Hold the final game in Japan and title Korea/Japan instead of Japan/Korea. If I'm wrong, please correct me. janviermichelle 16 May 2006

i agree that this is a consistency problem. above, i tried to do a google search that shows that dokdo (or variant spellings) are more common than takeshima, in english pages. i bet the numbers have changed, especially given the growing influence of wikipedia, but the point i was making was that "dokdo" is both more common & the actual-control name. "liancourt" seems to be a case of wikipedia promoting an obscure name, something that should be avoided if possible.Appleby 05:20, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm almost afraid to start reading what excuses certain people are going to make to distinguish Dokdo from the Senkaku Islands. Right now it's a win-win for the pro-Japanese nationalistic point of view because we are using Japanese name for Senkaku presumably because Japan administers/controls the island but we don't allow that same principle for the islands administered/controlled by Korea. This is hardly neutral. So, to throw my two cents in, I would also prefer consistency; either Dokdo and Senkaku or Liancourt and Pinnacle. And if someone is going to say something about islet versus island as a reason than don't make me point out the Japanese government's position on Okinotorishima. (I hope no one even tries to divine a consistent position out all those contradicting arguments because they will seriously sprain their brain (and credibility)). [2]. Tortfeasor 06:56, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Maybe RfC would be good solution to gauge some outside opinion on this matter. Maintaining a double standard in naming matters that are controversial to many editors can certainly leave lots of problems. Deiaemeth 07:02, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I am equally divided if given the choice between "Dokdo and Senkaku" and "Liancourt and Pinnacle". I think the former would be better because of wider use and the status of authority, but the latter is more neutral for both sides. The poor Chinese end up the losers either way.--Sir Edgar 23:51, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps the more neutral approach would be better. John Smith's 13:29, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Image use in article

I think the image use in this article is WAY out of hand. I can see using 3-4 of the maps, but there are at least 10-12 maps right now. A bit on the overkill side, IMHO. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 03:20, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

i'd have to agree. don't remember whether it's in talk here and/or sea of japan dispute, but map wars inevitably end badly, because there's no end to the number of maps that could be added by either side. if significant, the information is better integrated into the text content, imho. perhaps, if someone really wants, a separate gallery page could be linked from here. Appleby 05:13, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Article forking

Just an FYI on a related matter, but Janviermichelle (talk · contribs) just created a cut-and-paste copy of Sea of Japan naming dispute at East Sea (Sea of Japan) naming dispute. I changed it to a redirect to Sea of Japan naming dispute, but someone more knowledgable about POV forking and proper naming of redirects may want to look into it. --Calton | Talk 07:50, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

About the vote

I'm the one who did the thing called "POV forking", Calton mentioned above. I just started to look at this page and already the vote is over. What I don't understand is that this kind of dispute can be decided by a Vote!?! Wikipedia is encyclopedia and facts cannot be chosen by a vote. In this case, the fact is that this island is called Dokdo by Korean government which administrates the island. Everyone calls Israel as Israel, because it's under Israeli administration. Just so you know, this area is claimed by Palestinians. Then what do you want to call? Make up another English name for Israel? --janviermichelle 16 May 2006

Try the following:

• Parachuting in and unilaterally declaring how things are and attempting to override a years's worth of discussion by fiat or by sneaking in a name change won't get you far.
• Read -- actually read -- the arguments made above instead of banging on irrelevancies about voting processes. [F]acts cannot be chosen by a vote. True, but irrelevent -- which facts to include were chosen by discussion. That it happened without you gives you no right to pretend it didn't happen.
• Read -- actually read -- the archives of a year's worth of discussion. If you have something new to bring up, by all means, do so. If not, accept that you missed the boat.
• Read the page on POV forking. No, really, actually read it. Also note that the way you did it -- by cutting and pasting -- effectively nullified the article's entire edit history for the material in the fork. Also a no-no. --Calton | Talk 04:14, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi Calton, thanks for the "kind" commment for a new user. I know what I did was wrong. I'm sorry about that. Really. I mean it. for all of you. And I really respect the archives of a year's worth of discussion. Really. I do. But your comment, "If not, accept that you missed the boat.", Do you really think that's the proper way? There will be lots and lots of users trying to edit this article with different points of view. Do you really think that a vote of some early users can choose the title of this article? This is not a matter of including something. I'm talking about the title. Thanks. --janviermichelle

janviermichelle, welcome to wikipedia. a good overview of wikipedia can be found at WP:5P. you are right, wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a democracy. in fact, votes are a disfavored method to resolve content disputes. WP:V, WP:NPOV, & WP:NOR are "non-negotiable" principles that cannot be overridden by wikipedia consensus or by any of the countless "guidelines" floating around.

so take your time to peruse the policies and above discussions. as you can see, several editors have made some new comments recently on the naming issue, perhaps it is time to revisit. let's get some outside views, such as at WP:RFC, & see if we can make a better encyclopedia.Appleby 04:52, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Appleby, thank you very much. I appreciate that. janviermichelle 04:58, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Reference

I beliece the websites linked to from "Reference" are too much on Korean side and against Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. They all say the rocks are Korean territory.
"Truth of Dokdo" says "Ahn Yongbok went to Japan and confirmed that Dokdo was Korean territory and prohibited Japanese fishermen from fishing near Dokdo." But this is just a Korean understanding and Japan does not regarding so as I described above.
"Tour 2 Korea" says "Dokdo Island is in the eastern reaches of Korea's territory" and that "After The Japanese Invasion of Korea in 1592, Japanese fishermen often came near Ulleungdo and Dokdo. Sukjong Sillok, the Annals of King Sukjong(1674-1720), records that An Yongbok went twice to Japan in order to protest against Japanese nationals trespassing into Korean territory. He asked the Japanese authorities to recognize Korea's sovereignty over these islands and to forbid Japanese nationals to sail to these islands."
This website affirms that Liancourt Rocks are Korean territory although there has been a long long dispute since 1950s. This description also sound that there is some relation between the Korean invasion and the islets but there's no evidence which proves that opinion since "there is no record of the exact date of Takeshima's discovery" ([13]). As for An Youngbok, Japan have a different understanding as I just said.
All the other websites linked to from "Reference" also say the islets are Korean territory. That seems as if Wikipedia supports the Korean insistence. Linking the article to these POV links seems not suitable for wikipedia, which is to provide us with neutral information.
I believe this article does not need these links from "Reference". It's just enough only with "External Links". I propose removing links from "References" in order to maintain this encyclopedia neutral. Michael Friedrich 13:40 17/05/06

Do not remove references from the article. You are completely misunderstanding their purpose: they are not included because we endorse the views in them, but because we don't endorse the views in them. Wikipedia does not support either side in the dispute. We include references to support neutral statements of each party's position within the text. If you think that Japanese views are not reported adequately within the text, then add them. If you think that Japanese views are not adequately sourced within the text, then add references for them. But do not remove existing references. Henry^Flower 14:12, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

"because we don't endorse the views in them"!? I cannot believe it. On what do you ground your saying? It seems very clear to me that they are included in order to support Korean claims. Someone even added a websites such as OhmyNews.
"Wikipedia does not support either side in the dispute." That is why I said those websites are not suitable. The official websites are enough to let the readers to know what the two countries are saying. Even if they were included not because wikipedia endorse the view in them, readers would think it does.
"We include references to support neutral statements of each party's position within the text." Within the text!? Are you saying the "References" are withing the text? They are UNDER the text. They don't support "neutral statements of each party's position" since there are only websites on Korean side. We are not talking the links "within the text". They provides us the source of information (though sometimes they are out of context). But we're discussing the links in "References".
When I added [3] someone removed it saying it is not "reputable". There are a lot of websites that provides us with evidence that supports Japanese claims but unfortunately most of them are in Japanese. If it is OK they are in Japanese, I can add lots of reputable websites. But if you keep adding those websites on both sides this page will be in a panic. And even if I add any website on Japanese side, I am sure some will remove it saying "they are not reputable!" just as happened before.
For example, on Kumdo article, some websites such as [[4]], [5] and [6] were included (it is not me who added those sites.). But they were removed because they were "POV websites". I don't think those websites are not very reputable, but I think they are POV websites and not suitable for wikipedia. The websites linked to from "References" are just like them. POV website are not suitable for wikipedia whether they are reputable or not.
There are too many websites about this dispute on both sides. Who can judge whether they are reputable or not? Nobody can. If it were possible, there should not have been any disputes on this issue. Since it is not possible to judge whether they are reputable or not, those unofficial websites on either sides should not be here (Remember we are not discussing the links within the text but the "References" and "External Links"). The official websites are enough for readers to proved information. If they get interested in this issue they will study it themselves. We don't need those POV links here. Michael Friedrich 16:14 17/05/06

The references are there for interested people to see what is written. I think there are a ton of articles supporting Korean claims on Liancourt Rocks because Liancourt Rocks are Korean territory! If you look into the articles they have facts that Laincourt Rocks were Korean territory from the start and that is defintely true! Korean records date back to 500 A.C while Japanese records only go back the the 1600s. Also, there are many sites supporting Korea because most people think Liancourt Rocks are Korean territory. Japan may claim liancourt Rocks openly but they don't have strong claims and that is why they don't want to put their records on the internet.

Good friend100 21:44, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

How nonsence. We're not talking about it. I don't get why you can say "Most people think that the rocks are Korean territory." On what do you ground your saying? Korean people say that their records date back to 500 A.D. but I must say they are short of evidence that proves the island referred to in those records is the Liancourt Rocks. [7] [8] [9] But we are not discussing what is the truth. Don't you understand? At least, your talk sound like you admit that those websites are included to support Korean Point of View and that it is not true that "they are not included because we endorse the views in them, but because we don't endorse the views in them". Is it OK to think so?

There're a lot of websites supporting Korean claims. That is true. You think that is because most people think Liancourt Rocks are Korean territory. But most of them are written by Koreans. And it is also possible to think that Korean have to make up a lot of websites to justify their "illegal occupation" (Japan claims so) on the rocks. Since September 1954, Japan has kept proposing to submit this problem to the International Court of Justice but South Korea has been rejecting the proposal. If the Korean government has strong evidence that proves the rocks are their territory, why doesn't it submit the problem to the International Court and settle it? If Japan did not have good evidence that proves their claims, would she try to submit it to the Court? The number of the websites supporting Korean claims does not mean anything.

In addition, there are a lot of site supporting Japanese claims too but unfortunately, most of them are in Japanese. Japanese people were not interested in this dispute until recently, or did not even know it. They teach about this dispute in school in Korea, but the name Takeshima did not even appear in textbooks in Japan until recently. The rocks are the symbol of the Japanese occupation and Korean liberation for Korean people and are important to unite the people, but the rocks were not regarded important in Japan, except by fishers and those engaged in diplomacy. Those who are interested in the dispute think that it is more important to let the Japanese know this dispute than letting the foreigners know it.

Korean claims MAY be right. But Wikipedia is not where you discuss which is right. I am not proposing to have the "References" removed saying they are not true. It doesn't matter whether what is said in those websites is true or not. But those links give the readers of Wikipedia an impression that Wikipedia supports their view and that they are right. I cannot say this is NPOV. Michael Friedrich 03:42 18/05/06

If Tokyo demands Washington to go to the International Court of Justice (where a Japanese judge sits) to determine whether Hawaii belongs to Japan or the United States, do you think Congress would agree?--Sir Edgar 08:37, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Nonsence talk again. It is only sophism. Japan never used Hawaii as its own territory. Everybody would think that is very ridiculous if Japan demanded Hawaii. Japan has no evidence that makes Hawaii its territory. But the Liancourt Rocks have a different story. There has been a dispute for more than half a century. If Korea is sure to win, it should fight in a Court, not by arm. But that is irrelavent.

You don't understand what I am trying to discuss. It does not matter whether Japan is right or Korea is right. The problem is this article would give readers an impression that Wikipedia is supporting Korean view. The official sites would be enough. If readers of the article get interested in the issue they will study it themselves. We don't need those POV links here.

Michael Friedrich 15:58 18/05/06

"it does not matter whether Japan is right or Korea is right." is also POV. Think about Israel-Palestine territory, and how "it does not matter whether Israel is right or Palestine is right." sounds to Israelis and Palestinians. I don't think the past evidences matter when we talk about which country owns what. The current administrator does matter. Then we should say the US illegally occupies this land, that's why we call this land "the united states". The current goverment or the current administrator matters. Think about Taiwan and China. Taiwan should be called Taiwan. I think the current reference is okay. But the title of this article is too pro-japanese. it should be dokdo. Janviermichelle 19:56, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

To the response of Michael Friedrich, you said that "Korea keeps rejecting the proposal."

First, let me tell you because I am Korean I know a lot of other things going on between Korea and Japan. The reason why Korea rejects the proposal is because Koreans do not want to give a chance for Japan to put a foothold on Liancourt Rocks. Korea does have stronger claims and I have read them in books and internet articles in Korean. Korea has occupied the islets since 500 A.D. And Japan is just suddenly aggresive toward Korea about the Liancourt Rocks issue because Japan is looking for natural gas that might be near Dokdo. Japan wants the rocks for more of economic reasons rather than historical fact. This is also the same reason why Japan is aggresive toward Russia's Kuril Islands and China's islands.

Also I would like to ask why you refer Korea as "it" and Japan as "she". There are too many pro-japanese people here. The islets are KOREAN territory. It might sound like I am biased because I am Korean, but I know the situation between Koreans and the Japanese. The islets are Korean territory and Korea has the right to name the islets. That is why this article should be called Dokdo.

Good friend100 21:42, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh, sorry. I had no intention referring Korea as "it" and Japan as "she". I didn't even realised since I am not a native English speaker even though I'm living in Australia. I am sorry if I hurt you.
I don't think it the islets are Korean territory. The evidence Korea is offering seems that they are too short of evidence that proves that the islands or territories mentioned in it are Dokdo. I also know the situation between Koreans and Japanese.
I want to argue against you, but I am not talking about it! You say this article should be called Dokdo, but I won't propose calling this article "Takeshima". It is because Wikipedia should maintain its neutral point of view.
Voltaire said "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." Calling this article Dokdo is against this policy.
As for the "References", they make this article seem to support Korean view and to try to call the islets Dokdo, even though the name of the article is neutral, the Liancourt Rocks.
The name should be neutral. The contents should be neutral. Of course, links should be neutral and should not give readers an impression that the rocks are Korean territory or Japanese territory. I say once again "The official sites would be enough. If readers of the article get interested in the issue they will study it themselves. We don't need those POV links here.
In addition, it seems you know nothing about Kuril Islands. The situation on the islands is completely different from the Liancourt Rocks. Japan and Russia decided their border between Iturup and Urup by Treaty of Shimoda in 1885 perfectly peacefully. The islands does not have anything to do with Japanese deed in World War II. There's no doubt the islands are illegally invaded by Russia. "Michael Friedrich 13:45 19/05/06

So calling this article "Dokdo" is POV and Pinnacle islands "Senkaku islands" is perfectly NPOV? see discussion at the Senkaku Island talk pages please. Some editors try to maintain double standards in naming these articles, and to maintain POV, Liancourt Rocks will be moved to Dokdo or Senkaku islands to Pinnacle islands. Deiaemeth 18:55, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I never said so. Please feel free to propose having it to moved to Pinnacle Islands if you like. I did not mention the Senkaku Islands. That's all. However, the adoption of "Senkaku" does not justify moving this article to "Dokdo" either. Michael Friedrich 12:54 20/05/06

i think we should move this to Dokdo to be consistent with countless other disputed territories articles, rather than change all other articles. it's the de facto wikipedia practice to name disputed territories as they are called by the administering state, especially since liancourt is clearly not an established english name. Appleby 20:57, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

The current name was chosen as a result of a vote. Be careful that you do not rename it without overturning that vote first. -- Cjensen 21:09, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

although wikipedia is not a democracy & votes are disfavored, it is true that we should try to build consensus based on wikipedia policies, consistency, and proper references. we should contact everyone who voted above & WP:RFC, but before we do that, it would probably be best if someone (sir edgar?) can refactor this page so that the recent relevant discussions are easy for newcomers to read at a glance. Appleby 21:23, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

To some extent I agree with Deiaemeth and Appleby. In addition to my agreements of what they said, I feel that the political climate now suggests that Japan is losing grip of Takeshima/Dokdo, and if this matter is being brought to court, I believe that Liancourt would have a higher chance to acclaim political adminstration on Liancourt than Japan if the matter is brought to the international court, especially on the level of loyalty exhibited by Koreans--anti-Japanese riots are vigourously staged out whenever Japan voiced out its claims. There are plentiful of websites to support what I said.

If Liancourt goes to Japan in international court, it is feasible to predict that at least half of South Korea would create an uproar and that would cause political uproar.

To move to Dokdo: One, when Korea's soverignity is no longer contested and recognised internationally in (possible) future, and that will be a must if the occasion arises, and the same if Liancourt goes to Japan (Takeshima). Two, you might move now, but the Europeans and Americans would certainly look in one kind. In all English media in Asia (except Korea and Japan), in particular Singapore and Malaysia, mention of Liancourt Rocks would be "....Dokdo (Takeshima)...." format. Liancourt rocks is not used in Asian newspapers, and I can step up Singapore's and Malaysia's position to their reference mode to Liancourt Rocks. I hope my comments can bring some help. Mr Tan 04:44, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

thanks for your thoughts. i think dokdo (takeshima) would be fine in the article text, although i don't know about others' thoughts, & here too, we should be consistent with other disputed territory articles. but the question now i think is the article title, which wouldn't include parenthesis.

also, i would like to see this discussion focus on wikipedia policy, consistency w/ other analogous wikipedia articles, & proper citations. if we start to discuss the contents of the parties' arguments & take sides on who's right or what would happen if ..., it'll be hard to have a rational discourse on this encyclopedic style question. Appleby 05:18, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

The name Dokdo is not internationally standardised. [10] According to this site, 66.7% of Malaysians, 58.8% of Australians, 55.6% of Indonasians, 54.5% of Filipinos regard the islets as Japanese territory. And I am not taling about Senkaku island. Please discuss that dispute on the Talk of Senkaku island. And I am talking about the "References". They are included in Wikipedia to support Korean view although Wikipedia does not support either side and maitain its neutral point of view. That is what I am taling about.Michael Friedrich 06:32 20/05/06

I don't understand why other people think about this islets are important. (Also, I don't understand why "those four" countries are important for our discussion.) Be careful about statistics. And, apparently Senkaku article is related to this article. (if you care a bit about consistency) And I am talking about the "Title". It is included in Wikipedia to support Japanese view although Wikipedia does not support either side and maitain its neutral point of view. That is what I am taling about.Janviermichelle 10:57, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

And also, about the content you added, those kinds of adding can make this article infinitely long. There are endless of evidences out there in the media, supporting both POV. Furthermore, as I said above, those statistics are meaningless. They could've called people and asked questions and picked up whatever countries they want. This is NOT statistically meaningful data. and there are no explanation why those four countries were selected. Janviermichelle 11:04, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

As for the references, I think those are not worth being mentioned as references. Those are merely internet links. Janviermichelle 11:13, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

I believe that Janvier's link shows only a poll on a segment of a few people from each country, not the entire country. This is unaccurate.

For me, no harm having Liancourt, or Dokdo. The best is to wait for the answer from the International Court before we explicitly choose Dokdo or Takeshima or Liancourt again, although the amount of efforts and loyalty to Liancourt from Korea and Japan from both countries suggests that Korea stand a higher chance to win (US interference might increase/decrease chances, I don't know). As I have said, Koreans would get much more hurt than the Japanese, rather than the reverese if the International court rules out that Liancourt is either's territory, from the national climax of persepective countries and their vigor of anti feelings towards their counterparts. This is something that the whole world should know. Mr Tan 11:53, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't think the term "Liancourt Rocks" is POV because either Korean or Japan calls it so. In 19th century, both countries called it the Liancourt Rocks. That is a very neutral name.
I did not say the dispute on Senkaku Islands is different from that of the Liancourt Rocks. Please feel free to propose having it to moved to Pinnacle Islands if you like. What I wanted to say is the adoption of "Senkaku" does not justify moving this article to "Dokdo".
As for the "References", those are not worth being mentioned as "References" as Janviermichelle says. I believe they are not suitable for an encyclopedia. Linking to those websites is like linking "Dragonball" to mere fansites like [[11]]. We don't need those links as long as the official websites are included.
It seems this discussion has become a discussion on the title. If you want to talk about the title please make a new section. Let's talk whether we need those "References" or not. Michael Friedrich 12:45 20/05/06

Hi, you said the adoption of "Senkaku" does not justify moving this article to "Dokdo". Would you say why? I just want to know... And I propose to move the references to a new section "Notes" (and maybe add some other references supporting japanese POV).Janviermichelle 18:07, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi, the reason why I said "the adoption of "Senkaku" does not justify moving this article to "Dokdo"" is that the adoption of Senkaku might be suitable for wikipedia but might not be suitable for wikipedia. The name Senkaku is currently adopted. That's all. That does not mean the adoption of "Senkaku" is right. If you think "the Pinnacle Islands" is better for wikipedia, please feel free to propose having the article to moved to "Pinnacle Islands". I am not against adoption of Pinnacle Islands (I am not for it either, though.)
I think there're two ways we can take, removing whole of the "References" section or adding as many websites supporting Japanese view as the ones supporting Korean view. Your idea sounds interesting. But unfortunately, most websites supporting Japanese view are written in Japanese as I said above, and even if you add English websites of Japanese POV, they would be soon removed being said that "they are not reputable", "they are obscure ones" or "they are with little authority" as happened number of times.
I wonder moving the "References" to a new section makes any difference.
Michael Friedrich 15:00 21/05/06

Hmm... first I don't think those websites in the "references" section are suitable for it. Those are merely footnotes. So I proposed to moved those to a new section "Notes" (see Einstein). I don't think the notes are important, but since you raised this issue, we can talk. The websites you're going to add would not be soon removed if you add reputable ones. (I thought that the website you added before was obscure, not reputable and with little authority. I can make a website like that in an hour and say whatever I want.)

And you think Liancourt and Senkaku are different, independent articles.. okay. you can say that. But if there was some logic in naming Senkaku and if it can be applied to this article, we should think about it. And I don't think Senkaku is "adopted". Janviermichelle 18:55, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, you're right. Those websites in the "References" are not suitable. Thank you.
As I said, most reputable websites are written in Japanese because it is more important to let the Japanese know about this dispute than letting the foreigners know about it. That makes the problem harder. And I am not sure moving the "References" to a new section can make any difference.
I did not say situation on Senkaku and that on Liancourt are different. I did not mention Senkaku although I believe Kuril is very different. The reason why I said Senkakuis adopted is that the article is currently called "Senkaku Islands". That's all. Then I withdraw what I said. Senkaku is "used".Michael Friedrich 16:15 21/05/06

I don't understand why we are talking about Senkaku Islands while this discussion is about Liancourt Rocks. Anyways Liancourt Rocks should be named Dokdo because Korea controls it! It is Korean territory. Therefore the Koreans have the right to name it. And also, we should be reminded that Korea and Japan are NOT in a dispute over the rocks. Liancourt Rocks are Korean territory and Japan is merely claiming it. Japan is making it look like a dispute so it seems like the Liancourt Rocks could be Japanese territory.

You also said that Korea does not have enough evidence to say that the rocks are Korean territory since 500 A.D. That is not true. Korean records show that the rocks were Korean territory since that time.

Also, even if you are right, Liancourt Rocks would still be Korean territory because a map created in 1432 during the Chosun Dynasty shows that the rocks are part of Korea and that Liancourt Rocks could be seen from Ulleung-do. This is an earlier record than the records of Japan, which date from the 1600s. [[12]]

You keep saying that the article should be neutral. But your statements below and your tone of your arguments seem to me as if you are pro-japanese.

"The name Dokdo is not internationally standardised."

"According to this site, 66.7% of Malaysians, 58.8% of Australians, 55.6% of Indonasians, 54.5% of Filipinos regard the islets as Japanese territory."

Liancourt Rocks are Korean territory! Even the Wikimachine in this discussion agrees that the islets are Korean territory. Good friend100 22:00, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Your are talking very emotionally. Please understand what we're talking about.

I can object against your insistence that the islands those Korean documents are referring to are not the Liancourt Rocks[13]. But that is not we are talking about.

You keep saying Korea and Japan are NOT in a dispute. I have to say this is very emotional and this is Korean POV. Britanica world map describes the islets as "Claimed by Korea and Japan." There are a lot of Territorial disputes on the planet and there is no doubt the Liancourt Rocks are one of them.

"The name Dokdo is not internationally standardised."

"According to this site, 66.7% of Malaysians, 58.8% of Australians, 55.6% of Indonasians, 54.5% of Filipinos regard the islets as Japanese territory."

I quoted those data because your talk is too pro-Korean. (Note that I quoted this date from a Korean website.) Your argument sounds to me as if other countries also recognise the islets as Korean territory. I did not showed you this data as evidence that makes the islets Japanese territory. I only wanted to show you there is a dispute because you keep saying there's no dispute on the islets. The name of the article should be Liancourt Rocks. If the United Nations adopts "Dokdo" as standard name used in a conference, it is very safe to say the name is internationally standardized because the UN is the only organization that most countries on the planet participate in, even if Japan is against it.

What I want to talk about is not which country is right because there is a dispute between two countries and we are not in a position to decide which is right. I want to discuss whether we need the "References" section and whether it is against wikipedia policy or not. Wikipedia:Neutral Point of View and Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia is not a mirror or a repository of links, images, or media files "Wikipedia articles are not mere collections of external links or Internet directories."Michael Friedrich 06:22 22/05/06

"Korea and Japan are NOT in a dispute ... Liancourt rocks are Korean terriroty and Japan is merely claiming it." Erm... Not to nitpick or anything, but in general, whenever two countries maintain claims to one territory, that generally constitutes a dispute, no matter which side currently occupies and administers that territory. So, I would say that no matter how you try to whitewash it, if Japan claims some part of Korean territory, then that constitutes a territorial dispute. Now, whether or not those claims are non-frivolous or justifiable is another matter entirely, but it isn't really up to Wikipedians to make value judgments on competing claims, so please stow those horrible dueling maps for the time being.

Although Korea is in control of these islets, that does not necessarily forclose the issue of the name of this article. After all, in many cases, the commonly-known English name for some place is different from the name that the controlling country recognizes. In many cases, the name is relatively similar (Milano --> Milan). However, in many other cases, the name is pretty radically different (Suomi --> Finland). Unfortunately, in this case, we have two names which appear to be pretty close in what portion of the English-speaking world would recognize each, and an English name which isn't really as widely-known, but is at least neutral as to the dispute between Korea and Japan. Personally, I think it makes more sense to use the name used by the country that actually occupies the territory or the more commonly-used English name (if there is one), in which case the proper name of this article should be 'Dokdo'. But there just isn't much consensus for using that name, and more people seem to think that it comports better with the Wikipedia NPOV policy to use 'Liancourt Rocks' for the title of the article. It also seems a bit silly that people are actually writing bloody dissertation-length arguments over a couple of insignificant rocks in the sea, but there you are... --Zonath 06:46, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Those rocks are, as you said, insignificant, but Koreans think the Japanese claim on dokdo is a part of, or an extention of the "imperial Japan". This makes Koreans be so obsessed with dokdo. And this article should be entitlred to dokdo. Liancourt rocks is even less commonly used.Janviermichelle 17:12, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

Liancourt Rocks → Dokdo – per talk:Liancourt Rocks and talk:Senkaku Islands--Sir Edgar 00:18, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Survey

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

• Support It should be either "Dokdo & Senkaku" or "Liancourt & Pinnacle" for consistency of the application of naming by governing power, with preference for the former due to wider usage.--Sir Edgar 00:18, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
• Support Dokdo and Senkaku are the most commonly used English names, and also the names of administering countries. Janviermichelle 04:41, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
• support for consistency with other disputed territory articles in wikipedia; dokdo (& variant spellings) is also more common in english, far more common than liancourt. Appleby 05:32, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
• support consistency is the norm. We wouldn't want to support double standards in matters some editors deem controversial, would we? Deiaemeth 07:14, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
• Support. Very logical in appeal to Sir Edgar's explanation. This eliminates irony. (I don't harbour anti-Japanese feelings, please!) Mr Tan 11:52, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
• Support, but only because it's a workable rule. I would prefer a solution that does not support the claim of either side, but since we have Israel and there isn't really a good alternative, we might as well have Dokdo. So long as there's a standard. - Sekicho 18:33, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
• Support Definitely consistency. Also Dokdo is Korean territory so it should be named that.

Good friend100 22:34, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

• Support for consistency with all other contested territories. Double standard in naming the Sino-Japanese disputed island Senkaku while naming this island in some obscure way is hypocrisy.

Sydneyphoenix 13:10, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

• Support, though one should absolutely make sure to give the opposition sufficient time to notice and take part in the poll before such a change takes place. Rōnin 18:06, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
  • I agree with that comment. We almost have a quorum of Koreans in this vote, and no Japanese. Again, I only give my "support" vote with reservations; "Dokdo" is appropriate as a main title only, for consistency's sake only, until the status of the island is finally settled between the two countries (wake me when that happens). - Sekicho 18:31, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
    • I too have been puzzled by the dearth of "Japanese" (and I don't mean to imply ethnicity on people who aren't Japanese) votes in this survey. However, my perspective would be that they have received adequate notice, and the same notice has anyone who has participated in the survey. This talk page discussion is how these surveys are usually done. In fact, some people who might have been expected to vote have edited the main article or the discussion page but have not voted, which is evidence that they have had notice but have chosen not to vote. Also, anyone who really is worth their salt would have this page on their watchlist if they really cared. I agree that some more time should be given, isn't Wikipedia policy "several days"? But, an absence of a vote after a reasonable amount of time, suggests to me, that people who have abstained have chosen to waive their right to vote, not that they haven't received notice. Tortfeasor 18:55, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
• Support, for consistency's sake alone. Liancourt Rocks is used somewhat commonly in English, though not nearly as commonly as either Dokdo or Tokdo from what I can tell, still recognizable, though. Liancourt Rocks seems to be the name used when one wants to avoid the dispute altogether, but it's as outdated as Quelpart. — AKADriver ☎ 20:03, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
• Support due to Google survey. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 00:02, 25 May 2006 (UTC)