Talk:Poznań

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Royal City of Poznan - historical capital of Poland

Poznan was, is and will be an important Polish city. It was the Polish capital in 10th-11th century. The first historical Polish duke Mieszko I and the first Polish king Boleslaw I the Brave are buried in Poznan cathedral.

In a overhelming majority of its 11-centuries history 900-2003 it belonged to Poland, except a small periods when it belonged to Prussia (1793-1806) and the Third Reich (1939-1945). Even in years (1815-1918) it was the capital of the Grand Duchy of Poznan under Hohenzollern kings but with the guarantee of free develpoment of Polish nation and language.

There is no doubt that there were many German-speaking inhabitants of Poznan, invited by Polish dukes and kings to settle here, and they played a significant role in the city development, culture and history. But the German speaking inhabitants of Poznan were most of the time loyal subjects of Polish kings and patriotic defenders of their Polish homeland.

The ethnic German inhabitants of Poznan were the fucking good Poles, as good and patriotic as any others Polish citizens regardless of their ethnic origin, religion, culture, business or social status.

There's no doubt that Poznan is an old Polish city, and I find it very very rude, nationalistic and stupid to call it a German city in any period of time. And it is very silly to publish such a nonsense 20 times a day from an anonymous IP.

You are invited to find some new material to add value to Poznan article, and when refering to Polish-German relations please follow the example of German and Polish historians who are working together to produce one common version of history and clarify much of the confusion produced by the 19th century nationalisms:

Polish-German relations in Middle Ages

  • (ed.) Rainer Riemenchneider, Die Rolle Schlesiens and Pommern in der Geschichte der deutschen-polnischen Beziehungen in Mittelater, , Georg-Eckert-Institut fuer Internationale Schulbuchforschung, Braunchweig 1980
  • (ed.) Marian Biskup, Śląsk i Pomorze w historii stosunków polsko-niemieckich w średniowieczu, XII Konferencja Wspólnej Komisji Podręcznikowej PRL-RFN Historyków 5-10 VI 1979 Olsztyn, Ossolineum, Wroclaw 1983, second edition: Instytut Zachodni, Poznań 1987.

Polish-German relations in 16th-18th centuries:

  • (ed.) Antoni Czubiński, Zbigniew Kulak, Śląsk i Pomorze w stosunkach polsko-niemieckich od XVI do XVII w. XIV Konferencja Wspólnej Komisji Podręcznikowej PRL-RFN Historyków, 9-14 VI 1981 r. Zamość, Instytut Zachodni, Poznań 1987
  • German edition also available

Thank you for you cooperation.

--cc


Polish-revisionist version protected

User:Hephaestos has protected a Polish-revisionist version of this article, mentioning the German name in a silly way (also known as Posen in German language instead of German: Posen), and almost denying (not mentioning, and removing the name) that Posen was a German city most of the time from 1793-1945.

Old Posen article:

Posen bishopric was founded in 968. Duke Mieszko I was unable to cope with internal enemies ,sought the support of German emperor Otto I the Great and became one of his vassals. Mieszko married Dubrawka, got baptized and promoted Christianity.

The first bishop of Posen was Jordan (968-82), who was appointed suffragan to the archbishop of Magdeburg. Posen continued to be the only bishopric until the Diocese of Gnesen, Lat. Gnesna, Polish Gniezno was created.

Duke Boleslaw I Chrobry, son of Mieszko I, chose Gnesen for a shrine for the remains of Saint Adalbert of Prague. Emperor Otto III came to the grave of St. Adalbert in AD 1000 and established the archbishopric of Gnesen and at the same time Otto III created the bishopric of Krakow, Breslau and Kolberg. Posen was severed from Magdeburg during the ensuing strife at the death of Boleslaw I in 1025. It was reattached and in 1133 the archbishop of Magdeburg Saint Norbert? still had the metropolitan jurisdiction of Magdeburg over Posen recognized.

After that time Posen became a defacto suffragan under Gnesen.

1) There is only _one_ document which claims founding bishopric in 968 - Thietmar wrote that in 968 first Polish bishop, called by him of Posen, was suffragan of Magdeburg. Paul Kehr (German) Das erzbirstum Magdeburg and W Abraham (Polish) Gniezno i Magdeburg showed that this is against historical fact. They did that years before WWII. Both Labuda and independently Weiss showed that Jordan was bishop of country, directly dependent from Pope, not from Nagdeburg. Claim of Thietmar was based on document, placed in Magdeburg, which was attributed to Pope John, who was in the end of Xi century attached to Liber privilegiorum Sancti Mauritii. In that document it s written that first bishopric was founded by Emperor Otton I and that first bishop received his sacra from bishop Adalbert. P. Kehr proved that this document was falsification, fabricated in 1004-1012, to make a fundament for actions of Magdeburg, who wanted to achieve supremacy over Gniezno. Nobody until today dared to even try to question his findings. Since this document was falsificate, then only source which we have about founding bishipric in 968 is false. Another German who wrote aout that issue and also decided that cited document is falsification was Karl Uhlirz. Status of Jordan was simlar to st. Augustin, bishop of England (or, to be more accurate, English)

All later mentioning of bishopric in Posen are later (eg. Poznan yearsbook which was compiled in XIII/XIV century)

Bishop Unger was catched in Magdeburg after 1000 and was forced to accept archbishop of Magdeburg, but after his death bishopric of Posen again was attached to archbishopric of Gnesno. so before 1000 there was no bishopric in Posen. it was founded in 999 by Pope Sylwester, IIRC, and then in 1000 it was put into life on conferency in Gnezno.

2) Posen was most probably not a capitol of POland. Wide discussion which (again) take place over that question you can find, if you know Polish, in (2) in Szopen/Literature

3) Thesis that Mieszko was unable to cope with internal affairs is kind of wishfull thinking. Where is simple example of internal affair that in 965 Mieszko was unable to cope with? Why Mieszko bapticized is still question of debate, and hypothesis are: personal influence of Dobrawka (this is what Thietmar wrote) seeking of allies against Weletes (Slavs west from Oder) securing his state nad strengthening his position as king (i haven't found this hypothesis in recent books, but i remmeber that from my schoolbook)

4) Anyway, why Mieszko and when he accept christianity has nothing to do with Mieszko, it is doubling with entry about Mieszko and should me removed, and replaced by link to apriopriate article.

For history of Posen Gnesen read : Catholic Encyclopedia outside link http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06590b.htm H.J.

Have you noticed that link you provided is for Catholic Encyclopedia published in 1907? You realise that from that time there was some progress in science, do you? I don't know when exactly Kehr published his work, but he did that before 1920s (i had a book which cite him from 192something) and after 1910s. DO you want me to cite Polish first encyclopedia from XVIII century as a source???? Do you think that any encyclopedia is of better credibility than legions of historians? I can gave you links to Polish encyclopedias, do you want them?szopen

There are so many ERRORS in this article that it should be written from scratch - I will take care of this soon ;-) cc

Latinized names

Posen was an important German town for quite some time, and might well have become known in English under the German name, why I don't object to the statement of that form as an alternative in the introductory paragraph, but may I ask what's the reason to have two Latin names at the same place? Is the town maybe known to the English in latinized spelling, or is the local community of Latin speakers that very significant?

Wikipedia articles ought to follow simple usability rules, as "most important things first"!
--Ruhrjung 08:52, 17 Oct 2003 (UTC)

From Vandalism in Progress

Please insert your your comments on the right place, Wik, and don't just copy my comment. All other users, even CC (the other Polish guy), prefer the other version, therefore you will be reverted until you stop vandalizing the page. Posen is not the former German name, but the actual German name, as CC told you. See the German Wikipedia. Nico 20:29, 18 Oct 2003 (UTC)

This is the English Wikipedia, and we should only list city names in English and in the current official languages of the country concerned, plus any former names. So Posen is only relevant here as a former name. There is no need to list German names of non-German cities on the English Wikipedia. Besides, even in Germany it is politically incorrect today to refer to Polish cities by their old German names. --Wik 20:48, Oct 18, 2003 (UTC)

The style used on Wikipedia is followed. See other articles on cities. We have consensus, you are the only one insisting on your agitative, surely not NPOV version, which I think just is pure vandalism. Politically incorrect to refer to cities by German names in Germany? Don't be silly. And it have nothing to do in this discussion. Nico 20:58, 18 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Yes, see other articles on cities. Then you'll see that we don't bother to list "French: Londres" under London. Some cities may have 10 different versions in other languages. And if we should list them all, why stop at cities? Why not provide foreign-language equivalents for countries, e.g. "Germany, German Deutschland, French Allemagne, Dutch Duitsland, Danish Tyskland, Polish Niemcy, Hungarian Németország, ..."? It's you who's outside the consensus. --Wik 21:10, Oct 18, 2003 (UTC)

Don't make yourself silly. Denmark has never been German. Posen was a German city, with a majority of German population, most of the time from 1793-1945. Also in English the city was known as Posen until 1945 (or maybe longer). Nico 21:20, 18 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Yes, it was a German city. Hence, "former German name". And as to English, there has never been a separate English name for the city. In English, it was Posen until 1945 and then Poznań. (Another silliness I corrected is the notion that "Poznan" without the accent is an "English version" of Poznań. It is nothing more than a version without the accent, used by those who don't know how to type it or who are simply ignorant about it.) --Wik 21:29, Oct 18, 2003 (UTC)


At Wikipedia, you have to use the version used by English speakers. If English speakers use Poznan, without accent, then Poznan without accent is the version to be used on Wikipedia. I will check it with Google. Nico 21:35, 18 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I told you above why some people (not just English speakers) use it without accent. This doesn't make it an "English version" in the same way as "Warsaw" is an English version of Warszawa. On Google you'll find that almost any properly accented word appears more often than not without any accents on English pages; that's just due to people's carelessness or ignorance. If that were the standard we'd have to remove accents from thousands of articles. --Wik 21:43, Oct 18, 2003 (UTC)


GOOGLE:
Results (English pages only), Poznan: 147,000 (1) and the entire Google: 491,000
Results (English pages only), Posen: 45,600 (still used in English!) (1) and the entire Google: 492,000 (!!!)
Results (English pages only + the entire Google), Poznaƒ: 1,130 (1)

Well, the computer can’t even handle the accent. I think most English speakers use Poznan without accent. Then this is the version to be used. And as you see, Posen is also used by a significant minority in English (and a majority worldwide). Then Posen should be mentioned as an alternative English form in the article too. Nico 21:52, 18 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Posen is used in English when referring to the city before 1945. And that you won't find much use of the accent is obvious, not only for the reasons I gave before, but furthermore since this particular character (accented n) is not in the regular ASCII code (which is also why we can't use it for the article title), and older browsers can't display the Unicode. --Wik 21:59, Oct 18, 2003 (UTC)
Posen is used to refer not only to Poznan, but to other places (see: Posen). Ausir 16:40, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Wik, Nico, please fight your fights elsewhere, this is a page about vandalism, not edit wars or differences of opinion. Kosebamse 21:31, 18 Oct 2003 (UTC)

You don't have to tell me. I'm just responding. --Wik 21:43, Oct 18, 2003 (UTC)

English city names

Personally I find this Poznan-Posen row very, very silly. I my opinion it's a natural thing that big cities have several names in various languages. For example a German city in Bavaria is called Muenchen, but also Munich in English and Monachium in Polish. A famous Italian city of Venezia is called also Wenedig, Venice and Wenecja (guess in what languages).

Some cities have a distinct English name (Munich, Venice, Warsaw, Rome, Moscow) and these names should be used in English Wikipedia. If there's no clear English equivalent we should use the official city name in the local language, and this is precisely the practice of the English speakers.

Poznan was for centuries an important political and economic centre of Poland, so it deserved a name in several languages. Because Latin and Polish were the official languages in Poland the city had a name in theese two (Posna, Posnania, Poznań). Because of significant German population in Poznan and importance of German language in international trade Poznan also had a German name, but it was changing in time (Posna, Posen).

On a 18th century English map, in my posession, the city is marked as Posna, but I'm not sure if this English version comes from Latin, German or abbreviated Polish name.

Poznan was a possesion of the German speaking monarchs (Prussia, Germany) in years 1793-1806 and 1815-1918 so in these years we can say that the official name of the city was Posen. On the other hand peace congress of Vienna in 1815 (held in French) has assigned western part of Duchy of Warsaw (Poland) to the Prussian kings with the guarantee of "free development of Polish nation". The province was called Granch Duchy of Poznan (Grossherzogtum Posen, Wielkie Księstwo Poznańskie). The Duchy was the possesion of Prussian kings, but it stayed outside the German Union federation. So there's no doubt that this period (1815-1918) can be called bilingual (German and Polish) so there were two official names of the city (Posen and Poznań).

To summarize: 1) Polish name of the city was used all the time in last 1000 years and it was an official city name most of the time. There were only two periods in history (1793-1806) and (1939-1945) when the German name was the only official name - and they were just episodes in city's history.

2) Poznan is undoubtly a Polish city, and it cannot be in any way called a German city, although we must admit that the ethnic Germans played an important role in the city, and in the 19th century the city belonged to Prussia and Germany.

3) In my opinion the city has now three names: Poznan in English, Poznań in Polish and Posen in German, and all three names should be listed in the article. I think that listing of Latin name(s) is also very important because it shows the earliest version of the city name in the written documents.

4) If there's any doubt about the English equivalent we should use the official name of the city: Polish names in Poland, German names in Germany, in their modern boundaries. In this case Poznan is the English equivalent made of the Polish name. In most English publications, I have seen, the city is called just Poznan, and most of theese sources also mention the Polish form: Poznań.

--CC

It is undoubtly a German city too, in modern times historically (since 1793) belonging to Germany, and with a majority of German population (60 %) until it was occupied by Stalin and his gang, and given to Poland, when the majority of the inhabitants of the city were expelled. Nico 19:05, 19 Oct 2003 (UTC)
PS: From 1793, not only 19th cenutry, plus 1900-1918 and 1939-1945=24 years of the 20th century.

To Niko: I don't know in what sense you use the words "German city". If a city can be German, Polish, Jewish, French, and Scotish at the same time, I agree with you that Poznan is a German city too.

If you think that a city with a significant ethnic population can be described as a ethnic city, that means that Poznan was a German city.

If you think that a city belongs to the state in which it lies, that means that Poznan was a German city in years 1870-1918, as it belonged to the German Empire.

If you think that the city is best described by its connection to only one ethnic group, Poznan was and is a Polish city, as it was inhabited by the Poles most of the time, and the Poles were the majority of inhabitants most of the time.

If you think that the city is best described by its connection to only one political entity Poznan was and is a Polish city, as it belonged to the Polish state most of the time.

To summarize:

1) Poznan was and is a Polish state from political and ethnic point of view.

2) Poznan can be sometimes described as a German city, but only from ethnic point of view, and in very limited points of history.

3) Poznan cannot be described as a German city from political point of view, as its belonging to the German state was only an episode of history.

--CC

I am very sorry to tell you, Niko, that your remarks about Poznan history during WWII are very offensive and agressive, and bear no respect to all those you died defending their lives, propery and freedom. Please take a while to rethink what you are saying about this dark period of history.

--CC


Grzes of Posen wrote: "If you think that a city belongs to the state in which it lies, that means that Poznan was a German city in years 1870-1918, as it belonged to the German Empire. "

Don't be silly. "German" include former parts of Germany, such as Prussia. Or you could say that Posen has belonged to POLAND only since 1990 (The Soviet Republic People's Poland was another state, huh?)

According to WW2, Germany had the regal right to liberate the occupied territory of Posen, which legally belonged to Germany, according to the Vienna congress. I have no respect for stalinists and their crimes against humanity.

To summarize: Posen was a German city most of the time from 1793-1945, belonging to different German states, and with a majority of German population, which was expelled or murdered by the Stalinists in 1945.

According to the Geneva protocols, it is illegal: 1) to permanently keep land militarily taken over 2) to expel and to replace the inhabitants.
Nico 13:38, 20 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Uh, oh, another misguided German. Pardon, but when i hear sentences like in 1945 majority of populationw as German, then i wonder were that guy was taking information from.

Whole populaiton of province in 1905: http://30.1911encyclopedia.org/P/PO/POSEN_GERMANY_.htm "The population of the province in 1905 was 1,986,637, including 1,347,958 Roman Catholics, 605,312 Protestants and 30,433 Jews. The Roman Catholics are mainly Poles, of whom there are upwards of 1,000,000 in Posen, while the great bulk of the 900,000 Germans are Protestants."

Data only for cities of the province: http://www.pgsa.org/poznan.htm "As of 1837 there were in the Grand Duchy the following numbers of townsmen: 142,812 Poles, 91,462 Germans, and 71,177 Jews. " "

The Grand Duchy of Poznan~

by Edward Callier, From the Sl~ownik Geograficzny

Population [Vol. 8, p. 955]... The population of Poznan is primarily Catholic. In some areas there are Protestant Poles, and in others German Catholics. Jews who have become wealthy move westward (see E. v. Bergmann, Zur Geschichte der Entwickelung Deutscher, Polnischer und Juedischer Bevoelkerung in der Provinz Posen seit 1824, Tuebingen, 1883). The [German] colonists brought in by Friedrich II and settled along the Notec~ river have become inveterate foes of the people they live among. The same attitude appears among German Protestants, both in the villages and in the towns. As of 1837 there were in the Grand Duchy the following numbers of townsmen: 142,812 Poles, 91,462 Germans, and 71,177 Jews. Later statistics do not differentiate the inhabitants on the basis of nationality.

In the opinion of those in government, there are no Poles within the borders of the nation of Prussia, there are only Prussians and Germans, differing only in creed. Of the towns of Poznan~, the following have predominantly German populaces: Bojanowo, Brojce, Bydgoszcz, Chodziez*, Czarnko~w, Fordon~, Kargowa, L~abiszyn, Leszno, L~obz*enica, Lutomys~l, Margonin, Miasteczko, Mie~dzycho~d, Mie~dzyrzecz, Ostro~w, Pil~a, Radolin, Rakoniewice, Rawicz, Rostarzewo, Rydzyna, Rynarzewo, Sierako~w, Skwirzyna, Szamocin, Szlichtyngowa, Trzcianka, Wielen~, Wolsztyn, Wyrzysko and Zaborowo. " (Poznan is not mentioned)

The map about language distribution in province in 1905 http://www.man.poznan.pl/~bielecki/images/posen.gif

I can't find data for city alone, but IIRC Poles started to be majorit in XIX century.

On the other hand, that may be truth that in 1945 Germans were again majority in the city. Nazis had expelled hundreds of thousands Poles from Poznan aread into GG, and imported thousands of Baltic Germans into Poznan, giving them former Polish houses without any recompensations, of course. Another link to Posen province population: http://thorin.adnc.com/~lynnd/gfaqi.html

I will try to search in house about Poznan/Posen city alone. szopen

Population of Poznan

I have found info about Poznan population in this publication: Encyklopedia Historii Gospodarczej Polski do roku 1945 [Encyclopaedia of Economic History of Poland to 1945], Wiedza Powszechna, Warszawa 1981

About population in article: Poznan
1600: 20.000 inhabitants
after Polish-Swedish war of 1655-57: 14.000 inhabitants
afterwards increase of population
1700-1709 Norhern War, and a great plague
1716: city destroyed by Tarnogrod Confedarates
1733: 6.000 inhabitants
1738: great flooding destroyes 60% od the city
1768-72: fightings by the Bar Confederates, Prussian troops
next economic upheaval
1793: 12-13.000 inhabitants
1793-1800 integration of metro area into one city
1831: 31.000 inhabitants
1870: 54.400 inabitants
1910: 157.000 inhabitants,
1939: 272.000 inhabitants
1939-1945 during WWII some 100.000 inhabitants resettled to GG

entry: Wielkie Księstwo Poznańskie


During Prussian times (Grand Duchy of Poznan) Polish population share in Poznan City fell from 66% in 1816 to 58% in 1910

During Prussian times, it didn't exist a Grand Duchy of "Poznan". Nico 13:38, 24 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Nico, It was. It had two names, in Polish and in German. Poles used Polish version. Vienna guaranteed that Poles in their province under German rule will have rights "to develop their own nationality" IIRC or something like that. Then i bet Poles were allowed to use their names.
OTOH i'm happy that you no longer claim that before 1945 Poznan has majority of Polish population and was given to Poland by Stalinist band. That half of my family which was from Greater Poland and was fighting for free Poland is hardly one you could describe in that way. [[user::szopen|szopen]]

I have updated Demographics section adding also some info from internet sources cc

There is something wrong with the numbers. In one section of artcile there is mention that German poopulation rose to 60%, while in another there is data about 58% of population being Polish in 1910.

The ethnic share numbers of 66%-1816 and 58%-1910 are taken from a reliable source (the Encyclopedia) so they should stay. On the other hand, I have typed this 60% number from my memory having the above numbers in mind. Sorry for the mistake. cc 26 Oct 2003


What is the English city name: Poznan or Poznań

As I have stated before my opinion is that present English name of the city is Poznan, and not Poznań. I was using this name consequently in my substantial contributions to this article, and now I am very surprised to discover that this name was traslated to 'Poznań' Anyway this needs some discussion before we resolve this problem.

1) There's not doubt that the city has no unique English name comparable to other Polish cities (Warsaw, Cracow), so the English name is derived from the native Polish name of Poznań.

2) In this case the city name in English version documents is not used consequently, some documents use 'simplified' name: Poznan, while other documents use the full Polish version Poznań

3) It is impossible to distinguish in the internet resources if the English speaker writes Poznan because he cannot write Polish characters, ot he writes Poznan because he thinks this is the proper English name.

4) I any case Poznań (with ń) cannot be called an English name, as there is no such letter in the English alphabeth. Poznań can only be called A polish name imported into English

5) Polish national characters pose a serious difficulty for English speakers. It is also almost certain that the English speakers will search in internet for Poznan, not for Poznań, as the Polish name is difficilt to type-in for non Polish computer users.

To summarize:

A) Being an English speaker for 25 years and internet user for 10 years my opinion is that Poznan (without ń) is the form most commonly used by English native speakers and in English publications. The obvious examples are The internet guide to Poznan and Poznan City Guide.

B) Additionaly my opinion is that two versions of the city name (Poznan and Poznań) are used by the English speaking Poles. The examples are Poznan University of Technnology, PoznanSchool of Banking but also Poznań University and Poznań University of Economics.

C) This means that the most common and widely accepted English equivalent of the city name is Poznan (without ń) and this name should be used in this article and in the English Wikipedia.

D) Great care must be taken by non-Polish speakers when dealing with these names in the Poznan article. Personal name Poznan is written without ń in Polish and it should not be renamed.

E) Internet sites should be named after their original name, not our preferences.

cc

There is no English name. Obviously those who can't type accents will ignore them. That doesn't make the no-accent version an "English name". We can use accents here, so we should do so. Anything else is a pointless "dumbing down". If Poznan were an English name, it would be used on those English sites which otherwise use Polish accents. But that's not the case. Most English sites will ignore all Polish accents, because most of them are not available as ASCII characters. On the other hand, the printed Britannica generally uses accents, and therefore it naturally says Poznań and not Poznan. To summarize: if we don't use the accent here, then, by the same argument, we should use no accents at all in the Wikipedia. There is hardly any accented word in any language which on most English websites would not be stripped of its accents. But that's just ignorance and/or laziness. Why should we follow that? --Wik 19:59, Oct 26, 2003 (UTC)

It is only your opinion that there's no English name for Poznan. For me it's very bizzare to write Poznan' in English texts. My opinion is that the English name exists if people are using it. More and more English speakers come to Poznan avery year for business and/or entartainment and that's why the English name is introduced into the common English language.

cc

Do you think this is specific to Poznań, or do you think the same for all other cities with diacritics? Do you think "Sao Paulo" is the English name of São Paulo, or "Zurich" of Zürich, "Malmo" of Malmö? --Wik 22:37, Oct 26, 2003 (UTC)
There is a difference. English computers can easily type the germanic ö, ü etc. and they are also included in the ISO Latin 1, when it's very difficult to type the slavonic accents, which is not included in Latin 1, and older browsers view them often as "?". Nico 22:47, 26 Oct 2003 (UTC)

In my opinion it doesn't matter if it's easy or diffucult to type national characters. It does matter what is the most commonly used name by the English speakers. cc 27 Oct 2003

In my opinion the omission of diacritics due to sloppiness or computer restrictions does not create a new name. There are only a few cases where there are true English names which are spelled like the original minus the diacritics. For example, Mexico is the English name for the country known in Spanish as México. But then that's also pronounced differently! I say again, if we go by "the most commonly used name by the English speakers" then we should not use diacritics at all. But that has not been our practice. There are hundreds of articles on cities which include the diacritics without mentioning the stripped version as an "English name". --Wik 20:32, Oct 27, 2003 (UTC)

I'm definitely for the use of diacritics. In German it's possible to "walk around the problem" by writing Koenigsberg instead of Königsberg, etc. But in Polish it's not. And I'm not buying, that by skipping the diacritics you get the "English" version. "Walesa", "Swinoujscie", "Grudziadz" are not English versions, for COL!
Every day more and more English-language books and publications use Polish diacritics correctly. The right fonts are more available now, than they used to five years ago. Friendly note to Nico:
The diacritic symbol in "ń" is not called a "slavonic accent". It's not an accent at all. It's called "kreska" and in Polish language is used to change consonants into their palatal form. Graphically it differs from the "accent" symbol by the shape, angle and placement over the letter. Other Polish diacritics are: ogonek, kropka and stroke. Accent symbols are not used at all in written Polish.
Sincerely
Space Cadet 22:16, 27 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Time to write an article on the Polish alphabet, maybe?

Just as a pastime from the current edit wars, I mean!
--Ruhrjung 15:16, 28 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Unacceptable behavior by Polish User: 217.96.26.45

from Szczecin Zachodniopomorskie : http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Special:Contributions&target=217.96.26.45 Reference to his f... remark

66.47 etc, i already explained it to you few years ago. Poznan was not attached to Magdeburg. Magdeburg later made falsificate (first one to discover it was GERMAN historian Kehr around 1920s). It constantly tried to attach Poznan, but without much success and with great opposition from Polish dukes. Szopen

While id agree that 217.'s remark The city name is Poznan, and the fucking Teutonic scoundrels, please kindly stay away is both very rude and deeply offensive (some Polish nationalists seem as bad as Weimar-era German ones), 66.47 (banned user HJ) has no right to complain about trolling behaviour being one herself. PMA 09:07, Mar 13, 2004 (UTC)

moved from User Talk:Wik:

"former" German name

I would appreciate if you realize that Posnan hasn't become a "German" name. "...formerly better known under its German name" would be my suggestion, and if you produce something like that, I think maybe a compromize could be achieved.
--Ruhrjung 17:31, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Posen is not the German name today in the same way that Warschau is the German name for Warsaw. Try a Google search "Poznan Polen" (5,460) vs "Posen Polen" (2,470). --Wik 17:38, Mar 14, 2004 (UTC)
Your tricky Google search is irrelevant. The German Wikipedia uses the name Posen. A google search for Posen (German pages) gives 106,000 hits [1], a search for Poznan gives only 48,500 hits [2], mostly from German-language pages at Polish domains. Nico 17:43, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Searching for "Posen" without Polen includes historical references where Posen is correct. You have to make sure reference is made to the current Polish city. But I have said all this before, of course, with lots of other cities, and I'm not repeating myself any more. I will continue to revert your irredentist nonsense. --Wik 17:49, Mar 14, 2004 (UTC)

Holding "Poznan" for an un-German name is not "irredentist nonsense". Compare "Helsingfors" which was the common name for the city now known as Helsinki in German. However, "Helsingfors" was never a "German" name of the city, neither is "Helsinki", in the same way as "Wiburg" was the German name of what the Swedes called "Viborg", the Finns called "Viipuri" and the Russians still call Vyborg. It's the same thing with Posen and Stettin. "Posen" is a German language name of the city today better known as Poznan, a Polish name often used also in present-day German texts. But it's still Polish, like "Vyborg" is Russian and "Viipuri" is Finnish.
--Ruhrjung 18:11, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

It is not better known as "Poznan" in German, which the search results have proved.Nico 18:16, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Only your bogus search figures. --Wik 18:22, Mar 14, 2004 (UTC)
Where did I say Poznan isn't Polish? Of course it's not a "German name". There is no "German name" of Poznan in the sense of "Warschau", therefore the most correct use in German is to use the Polish name. Using the former names of cities that have become Polish is POV, it's like still using "Königsberg" for Kaliningrad. --Wik 18:22, Mar 14, 2004 (UTC)
"There is no "German name" of Poznan"? Don't make yourself so ridiculous. The German Wikipedia uses the German name Posen, and as it is a lot more popular than the names of that particular city in various other languages (including the Polish name), it is inappropriate to state it is not a name in use. It's simply just not true. Nico 18:27, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Name of the article (Poznan or Posen)

moved from Vandalism in progress (discussion of User:Wik)

GOOGLE:
Results (English pages only), Poznan: 147,000 (1) and the entire Google: 491,000
Results (English pages only), Posen: 45,600 (still used in English!) (1) and the entire Google: 492,000 (!!!)
Results (English pages only + the entire Google), Poznaƒ: 1,130 (1)

Well, the computer can’t even handle the accent. I think most English speakers use Poznan without accent. Then this is the version to be used. And as you see, Posen is also used by a significant minority in English (and a majority worldwide). Then Posen should be mentioned as an alternative English form in the article too. Nico 21:52, 18 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I wonder how many of those google hits to Posen is to cities in America named after the Poznan Szopen 08:09, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)

That's enough: lets have Nico banned

I think we all are tired of Nico edit wars here at Poznan and in othe places. Poznan is a Polish city, badly hurt by the Germans, especially during [[World War II]. The war is over now and the Polish-German relations and better and better these days. And Nico is startinf the WWII againg and again with his manipulations, threats and insults. Lets's have Nico banned. Mestwin of Gdansk 17:06, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

calm down, ok? Have an edit of other, unhistoric or not tied to Polish-German relations, get a rest and come back. AFAIK Nico said, that Posen is German name for Poznan, not that Poznan is German city. Is that right, Nico? Or do you believe that Poznan is German city under temporary Polish occupation where most of inhabitants is immigrants from Congress Poland? Szopen
The discussion was concerning the German name only. Anyway, it's time for mr. Albinowski to be banned, IMHO. Nico 21:49, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Poznan is a famous Polish city, with numerous population, prospering business, culture, education and science. Nico's obsession with the imperial and Nazi Germany is ridiculous. German occupation of Poznan was just an episode in Poznan's history. It is worth mentioning in the history section, but is unnacpetable that it occupies half of the intoduction. Mestwin of Gdansk 22:01, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Indeed, unlike Wroclaw/Breslau, which was a German city for hundreds of years, Poznan always remained a Polish city even under German rule. Ausir 16:56, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Maby this one would be better

radomil 08:22, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Explanation of revert

1. I suspect that only reason of inserting French name into article is to move German name to second place. French was not widely used in Poland, despite what some imply; not more than in Warsaw (will you insert Varsovie in Warsaw article?).

2. "Occupied by Prussia" in 1871-1918 is not NPOV. It's against wikipedia policies. Occupied would mean without international recognition, i think. Althought Incorporation of Poznan into Reich was with violation of earlier signed treaties, nobody really objected it in intenrational ground, IIRC; Therefore, i believe it would be enough of mentioning it somewehere into article. Szopen 06:55, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Hello Szopen,

This is the explanation of my edits, If you don't like any of these, PLEASE, make amendments one in a time, please do not revert several edits just because you don't like one on them.

1. I have restored the French name, because I think it is important here. If the German and Latin names are listed; the French name should also be here. It me be located at the end of list if you prefer.

2. I have unbolded the German name because it suggested that there are two alternative names Polish and German, which is not true. The only name is Poznan and only this should be bolded. Other names are in italics.

3. New version of the historical intro: Poznan was in years 1815-1919 the capital of the Grand Duchy of Poznan in personal union with the Kingdom of Prussia, but it was not part of Germany. In year 1871 it was unilateraly annexed by the newly created German Empire, despite the protests of the Polish parliamentarians. Poznan was also occupied by the Nazi Germany during World War II (1939-45).

4. I have restored and changes slightly the 5 Poznań's districts

5. I am removing the links to the German Empire from the see also section. They are already mentioned in the history of Poznan, and they are not so important to be mentioned again. Poznan does NOT belong to the German Empire, so they looked very strange here.

It's now looks OK by me - but Posen is not just German name, it also _former_ English name - in use for some time in XIX century Szopen 08:08, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)
So there is an agreement that Posen is a German name of the city. I sorry I cannot agree with Szopen, that Posen is a former English name. 18th century English maps usually show the name of Posna. So Posna is the former English name of the city. During the times of Grand Duchy of Poznan both the Polish name of Poznań and the German name of Posen were in official and private use, but neither of the two are English names. The English name was still Posna.
Well, i am not going to persist on including that as former English name. If nobody objects, then it's fine with me; definetely there is a lot less to support including "Posen" than in Gdansk case Szopen 15:36, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Posna is not really a valid "English" version. I've never seen it, and 18th century isn't a timeframe to consider here. Most English references to the town will be from the 1800s on. Since the official name for most of that time was the German one, most English texts use that. My vote is to mention the German version in the intro and to keep the other language versions also. Perhaps a standard for all town articles should be adopted with a little taxobox or a modification to big taxobox. EG, Köln>Cologne; München>Munich. I like the paragraph used here in the middle, though, as it gives more info than a taxobox, but I would like to see dates attached to the full official names. In short, the present version is on the right track. The compromise proposed below is the wrong direction, but "Posna" could be added to the Name paragraph as an archaic usage, not sure if it was strictly English archaic. We need to keep the reader in mind. Some will be looking for info about the current world, some will be trying to learn history, often in a specific time period. Both should be able to quickly self-direct themselves from the top of the article to the info that they are interested in. Bwood 12:46, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

This revert war has been raging on for ages now. How about a compromise I proposed (apparently noone noted it since the article got changed in some 20 minutes or so)?


Poznań (former English name Posna, German Posen) is a city in west-central Poland with over....

All the other names (including the ceremonial, historical or Latin) are mentioned in the ==Names section anyway... Halibutt 05:16, Jul 22, 2004 (UTC)

I don't understand why some of you reply above my post instead of below it. Anyway, Posna is definitely the former English name of the town. It's nowhere near that popular as Posen, but try searching for Posen Poland in google and you'll find out that most pages to use that name either refer strictly to the Provinz Posen as a proper noun or is a webpage of some German or Austrian company. The cases where the name is used separately and not in addition to Poznan or Province of are very scarce. The very word Posna came to English in the 16th century from French. It was in use at least until the partitions. A quick search pointed me even to this merry page.
As to the dates - this might be quite difficult. What criteria to use? Also, many names were and are used simultaneously (like cerremonial and normal names). Halibutt 17:16, Jul 22, 2004 (UTC)


Link: Very ENGLISH historical map: http://www.muzeum-polskie.org/images/mapa2.jpg

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