Talk:Rape/Archive 5
I am not sure if this is true but I think it is:
By definition, rape is an act done by a man to a woman. This means that I (a man) can rape but cannot be raped. I am here using the legal definition of "rape".
The word "rape" in colloquial language seems to refer to forcible penetration of the vagina or anus with a penis. I suppose, in this sense of the word, a woman can use a dildo to rape a man. The colloquial sense of the word seems more useful as well.
- Juuitchan
Men rape men too.
I think when they do, it is called "sexual assault" or "forcible sodomy" or something. If a man forces his penis into a second man's anus against the second man's will, does that fall under the category of "rape" *from a legal perspective* ? We have already established that *from a layman's perspective* the answer is yes. -Juuitchan
In the UK men can be raped (it's not called something else). Secretlondon 20:25, Nov 13, 2003 (UTC)
According to dictionary.com, see http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=rape, rape is defined as 1. The crime of forcing another person to submit to sex acts, especially sexual intercourse. 2. The act of seizing and carrying off by force; abduction. 3. Abusive or improper treatment; violation: a rape of justice.
So, according to at least one source, the definition of rape implies nothing about the gender of either party, nor, for that matter, the legality of the act.
-9Jack9.
- The definitions of rape vary wildly from state to state, and I would imagine from country to country. I know that in California, you need a penis to actually "rape,", while in Connecticut, even penetration is just a higher degree of sexual assault. The definitions that the Connecticut Sexual Assault Crisis Services training uses consider rape a subset of sexual assault that involves any sort of penetration. Sexual assault is any unwanted touching in a sexual manner. These seem consisten with what I've run across in various activism contexts as well. Andrew 23:48, 9 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I agree that men can rape other men, and the article should make no assumptions about the genders of the parties involved. I would actually suggest redirecting this article to one (as yet unwritten) with the title "sexual assault", which would describe the concept in all of its manifestations.
- We should have pages on both rape and sexual assault -- rape is a subset of sexual assault with special legal status and history.
Removed from article:
- The term and concept of rape is often used politically, particularly "on the left" where feminists, social justice and ecology activists may use it in very metaphorical ways. For instance, "verbal rape", "social rape", "Earth rape" or "eco-rape" are common ab/uses of the rape metaphor. In general such usage is intended to enrage opponents or supporters or both, and is a negotiating tactic rather than an attempt to claim true moral equivalence. However, some people really seem to believe such metaphors.
The author seems to be making terms up - out of the billions of webpages Google tracks these terms only showed up in the following amounts:
Should we even mention terms that are used so spareingly? Doing so gives them more credibility than they deserve and gives the impression that "those on the left" actually use these to a significant degree - which isn't the case.
- good point. I hear those terms often. I'd go with any rewrite as long as the general principle is respected. I think the terms show up rarely in WRITTEN material precisely because they are libelous...
The removed text is also very non-NPOV and. The term "on the left" is Americentric at best and ambiguous at worst. With some work, the general statement can be placed back in the article. --maveric149, Wednesday, April 3, 2002
- Agreed, "on the left" should go. It only seems to mean something specific in economics anyway.
What is the minimum number of Google references needed to legitimize a term? [1]
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Per the various allegedly "leftist" terms: it might be prudent to point out that the word "rape" can be used descriptively to indicate forcable action against the unwilling in personificational cases. (The rape of the wetlands; the rape of a country.) As demonstrated by the dictionary definition above, the word rape does not only apply to the act of forced sex. (It's simliar to the word marry or marriage; although the most ocmmon usage is the life bonding of two people, you could also say "I married the two ketchups" to indicate that you poured the contents of one bottle into another.)
Per sexual assault: the laws are ever changing, but here is some factual information of which I am certain:
- when a person commits an act that is classified as sexual upon another person without that person's consent, it is rape. This includes oral sex; anal sex; masturbation against the person's will (or anything leading to ejaculation, either by the perpetrator or the victim.) If it is considered, legally, a "sex act," then it was a rape. Sexual assault refers to SEXUAL acts (as opposed to SEX acts) done against someone's will. (For instance, in Washington, D.C., if you grab a man's crotch against his will, he tells you stop, and you do it again, it is considered a third degree sexual assault.)
I hope this provides some clarification. -EB-
Unless some kind of contradictory research can be produced, I have to remove the reference to male-on-male rape being more common than male-on-female rape. It seems like conjecture or at best urban legend to me--- this is a well documented issue, and 1) Male on female rape is at least three times as common as male on male rape, and 2) prison rape rates are extremely low, contrary to popular belief, as most prison sex is consentual and the legendary "gang rapes" that people think are so humorous very rarely actually take place. BarkingDoc
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I have broken out the handling of rape as a medical emergency into the new topic sexual assault and linked it appropriately. This is the term used in first aid and EMT instruction for this sensitive topic. Please remember that some of the readers of this entry will be reading it because they need information on the subject for urgent personal reasons. I cannot think of a topic where NPOV is more critical not only to the credibility of Wikipedia, but to the common humanity of our readers. clarka
"[T]he consent of the victim is irrelevant as the state has an interest in protecting minor children": is this exactly correct? Isn't it that the victim's actual consent is statutorily viewed as irrelevant because the victim is by statute declared to be incapable of consent? --Daniel C. Boyer 21:57, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)
- What you are talking about could be considered a legal fiction. Consent is a question of fact. The state has deemed that it is irrelevant to the issue of rape. Most would consider that it is not malum in se but malum prohibitum, i.e. something that society has decided is wrong. The child may consent and may be able to consent (as in the case of emancipated children whose contracts are usually found to be binding). The state is saying that the consent is irrelevant; not that the child cannot consent; children consent to legal acts all the time, when they buy candy in store they enter into a consensual contract, etc.. The state has a public order power to prevent rape of minors, it is the act itself that is prohibited; remember that consent is a defense to all these sexual violence crimes; in the case of children they are taking away that defense by statute. Is that clear? — Alex756
- Obviously it is a legal fiction. I am just asking whether this should be considered a legal fiction or a "taking away that defense by statute." --Daniel C. Boyer 00:38, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)
- I think the minor can, in fact, consent. Therefore what the statute does is take away the consent. You may say that the statute says that the child is incapable to consent to a sexual act at that age, but by putting it in the statute it becomes a question of law and not open to a jury determination. Of course there can be jury nullification. Alex756 05:20, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)
- If someone had the info or was willing to do the research, statutory rape probably deserves its own article, since it is really an entirely different concept from forcable rape. A cross cultural analysis would probably be enlightening as well. BarkingDoc
If the rates of male-on-male rape from non-Western countries is unavailable, then by what standards can it be claimed that the rate in Western countries is "relatively high"? "Relative" to what? Tuf-Kat 03:16, Sep 17, 2003 (UTC)
- Since it appears that the rate of male-on-male rape is higher than the rate of male-on-female rape, perhaps that is what was meant by "relative"? -BuddhaInside
I would like to see more information about the definition of date/acquaintance rape, especially regarding situations where the sexual contact is not necessarily forced, yet there is no informed consent. If it would not violate the NPOV, it would also be useful to have statistics on how many people are raped in their lifetime. (I have heard numbers from one in four to one in nine US women but have no references.) However, due to underreporting, the number is likely to be controvertial. Maybe how many report rape could be acceptable?
--zandperl 01:50, 22 Oct 2003 (UTC)
The groundbreaking study on the issue was performed by the National Institutes of Health in the early 1970's, and established that one in four women had been the victim of some form of sexual assault. The unfortunate truth is that studies attempting to get more specific information (such as the incidence of violent force versus the incidence of coertion by threat) have produced wildly different results, depending a great deal on region, economic background, and (unfortunately) race. To my knowledge, no one has been able to seperate and control for all of these factors, and due to the nature of the debate, every statistic produced is zealously challenged by those who believe rape is not a common occurance. BarkingDoc
I've seen the "Most cultures consider rape a Bad Thing" several times. Does anyone have any evidence of cultures that DON'T consider rape to be a crime? If there aren't any, should this be changed to "All cultures"? Darac 16:10, 12 Nov 2003 (UTC)
- The evidence from ancient Greece and Rome is not 100% clear (as is so much of it :-(), but it could be interpreted to mean that we would call rape was to them normal and proper behavior. There are books on the subject, I haven't read them though. Stan 16:46, 12 Nov 2003 (UTC)
- I am afriad that there are many cultures, not only ancient but alive and well in the world today, where rape is not only accepted but considered quite honorable. Afghanistan, for example, where kidnapping and raping a girl is considered a respectable way of courting her. And there are even more where rape is definetly not considered a crime. In Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Iran, as well as the African coutries where they practice genital mutilation, there is no such crime as rape. (or, in many cases, the woman who was attacked is considered a criminal: at least a whore. Many in the "modern" world are exiled, imprisoned, or killed for the crime of being raped.) And it has been a long tradition (again, not ancient but fairly current) in most cultures not frowned upon, that soldiers are entitled to rape women while at war. Raping slaves in the U.S. was not considered a crime. Spousal rape is a long contested issue which is still not considered a criminal act. I believe that rape is the subject of heated controversy in every country and culture, but it has never been as simple as being condemned as an evil act. The morality and politics of rape are among the most complicated and contested in all of history. BarkingDoc
Do you have any eveidence to back any of this up? Soldiers raping women is considered a crime - its a war crime as far as I know. Spousal rape is illegal in the UK. Secretlondon 20:25, Nov 13, 2003 (UTC)
- In all fairness, I do not have immediate evidence to back all these notes up, besides what I have read over a long period of time. I will do some research and see what specific items I can find. I do not in any way mean to level accusations against any whole culture of group of people. In general, I only mean to suggest that attitudes toward rape (and even the definition of what constitutes rape) can be dramatically different, and not just in comparison with ancient cultures. BarkingDo
Hmong engagement rape
here is a link to an article Hmong Engagement Rape. I have lived where it was majority Hmong and I can vouch for them that this custom is pretty much extinct amongst the population living here (in the states) these days. It was a topic infrequently discussed however, as it was a striking example of cultural differences, and the moral dilemma's resulting from liberalism/diversity gone wild (you can read more on that in the article if you like). JackLynch 09:11, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Afghanistan
The general lawlessness after departure of the Russians and before the Taleban came in allowed rape and kidnapping of women/girls to happen on a mass basis. But it most certainly was not accepted practice for courting - though many more primitive minded gun-owning young men might have thought so. One of the recurrent positive themes wrt Taleban was they "stopped the raping of the women". And a recurrent negative theme wrt to the new situation is exactly the above - the kidnapping and raping has again started,. Not that anyone wants them back, but the peace and danger-free times had something positive too.
Apart from this - yes there are romantic stories/poems/songs of girls escaping with their lovers from under the strict eyes of fathers and brothers. A consensual "running away" is certainly something featuring high in poetic literature (as it does the world over), but I simply do not know anyone who has done this.the practicalities are simply too difficult and the actual perception of a girl who has run away (rather than going a consensual route) and her lover is probably pretty low. Refdoc 08:34, 17 Dec 2003 (UTC)
animals
I removed the "other". To consider humans just one animal sepcies among many others is not NPOV.
Refdoc 19:58, 27 Dec 2003 (UTC)
drugs
I do not feel that declaring [GHB] or other drugs to be "date rape drugs" is NPOV. These drugs have positive and valid uses, and the use of hypnotics to perpetrate a rape is relatively rare. Calling any drug a "date rape drug" is a reflection of the Drug War mentality and anything but neutral. Jeeves 05:29, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- The drugs might have alternate uses, possibly even legitimate ones, but this does not change the fact that they are often used for facilitating a rape. Furthermore, "date rape drug" is a very common term, to not include it would make the article incomplete. The term is flagged by quotes and the qualifier "so called." The point of view is plenty neutral. Andrew 22:01, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- References on your use of the word "often" here? In any case, NPOV on "date rape drugs" would really mean a long diatribe on alcohol, and perhaps a fleeting mention of rohypnol and/or GHB. I would also point out that there is a compelling body of evidence that the Drug-War fanatics were mobilized against GHB as part of the agenda of certain pharmaceutical companies. While this article is obviously not the place to discuss that, I mention it because the status of GHB as a "date rape drug" which is "often used" is highly debatable. Jeeves 23:26, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- Why not just strike "often"? "Often" compared to what? Every day? Compared to legitimate uses? As a fraction of all incidents of rape? It seems uncontroversial to say that drugs including rohypnol and GHB (so called date-rape drugs) and alcohol are used to facilitate rape.
- I'll say it again: there's no such thing as a "date rape drug". The term smacks of American fear politics. Practically any drug could conceivably be used for date rape -- ethanol, halothane, chloroform, sodium pentothal, even LSD. Do we call these drugs "date rape drugs"? If you say "date rape drug", is that what someone will think of? The term is loaded and should not be used. Rohypnol and GHB were the subjects of media scares in the USA in the 1990s. You now see the effectiveness of the machine. Both of these drugs have the effect of producing unconsciousness or relaxation. Ordinary alcohol is still the date-rapist's best friend. I would need to see some real statistics before I would make any conjecture as to drug-assisted rape in any nation. Jeeves 00:06, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- My statistics are at school, so I'll edit this post when I can get to them, but there might be a compromise that wouldn't need stats at all. First, though, I would like to clarify my position. I think I might speak for others as well, but the term date rape drug does not mean to me that GHB is only used to rape people, but rather that out of the drugs used to rape people, GHB is a common one. The judgement is not passed on the drug itself , but on the practice of using drugs to rape. However, recently, anti-rape advocates have begun to refer to what used to be called "date rape drugs" as "rape facilitation drugs." Their idea is that date rape sounds too friendly, like something that's to be expected on a normal date. But this also might allieveate your concerns over the possibly loaded nature of the date rape term. And yes, alcahol is definetly included in this, something that might need more emphasis on the page, but is not denied when pointing out that other drugs are used as well. Stats to come, but I'm pretty sure that the politics of the drug war is irrelevant to the issue of drug-facilitated aquaintance rape. Andrew 01:23, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)
The terms "date rape drug" or "rape drug" are used by media, police and the population at large. There is such a thing. Exploding Boy 08:19, Mar 19, 2004 (UTC)
- The term "date rape drug" is simply a term. Just because people (over)use the term does not grant it any more reality. The fact is that while people are being told that drugs like GHB are used solely for rape-facilitation, every supermarket in the country continues to devote entire house-sized sections of its interior to the sale of alcohol. While I'm sure that it is true that use of GHB and rohypnol would facilitate rape, it seems a little inconsistent to focus on these in particular, when practically mind-altering substance could be used for the same effect. It seems to be something of a scare tactic designed to push people away from using non-governmentally subsidized chemicals. When people think of "date rape drug" if anything comes to mind, in the vast majority of cases, it is GHB or rohypnol, not alcohol, not marijuana, not LSD. It is a loaded term. The only reason that there are any drugs that are specifically designated "date rape" drugs at all is because people have been told that there are drugs used exclusively for this purpose and the term is thereby propagated. piter 02:49, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but you're reversing the burden of proof. You're asking us to prove the negative that the existence of date rape drugs is not just a lie generated by a government conspiracy. You're also conflating your alternate explanations, first saying that "date rape drugs" are a "scare tactic" to scare people away from "non-governmentally subsidized chemicals", then in the next sentence asking why marijuana and LSD are not classed as "date rape drugs", as if those were government-approved.
- Rohypnol was first given the title of a "date rape drug" because it was believed that it induced two effects: first, a state of passive cooperation during the time the drug was in effect; second, loss of memory of the time period in which the drug was in effect. Contrary to your assertions, you can't reliably expect those effects from alcohol, nor marijuana, nor LSD; while an attempt to get someone so drunk they remember nothing might work, it might not: they might remember very well exactly what happened and report it promptly.
- Now if you have some factual information about these not being the effects of rohypnol and/or GHB, then by all means, cite your factual information -- and your sources. But simply asserting with no backup that it's all a scare tactic by the guv'mint is not worth the electrons it takes to print it on the screen. And even if the effects of rohypnol and GHB have been exaggerated (for which there is some evidence, I believe) the fact that they are considered "date rape drugs" cannot be ignored, any more than you can ignore the fact that sodium pentathol is called "truth serum" just because it does not actually evoke the truth. -- Antaeus Feldspar
warning signs
The section entitled "warning signs" looks somewhat subjective. Can we have a cite for this, or is it a general "nasty people == rapists" list? A lot of these look like personality disorder symptoms; again, cite please? -- Karada 09:59, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
The section "Rapist profiles" looks much better thought out: again, which profiles to these warning signs apply to? Perhaps the generic "warning signs" section is best removed, and replaced by more infromation on each profile. -- Karada 10:04, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
alternative theories
I have removed this section because it represents a single, well-defined POV, referring to exactly 1 source. The essence of this section is already covered in the article. Furthermore, some of the statements in this section were completely subjective. It was well-written and interesting, but I do not feel that it is objective enough to be included as-is in the main article. I thought about condensing it, but it still represents a particular viewpoint. Jeeves 02:06, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I wrote the (now removed) alternative theories section because the current article focuses on rape entirely from a dominance perspective, and while that is the appreciated standard, there exists strong evolutionary bases for defining rape as a sexually motivated crime. I felt that providing simply a small section at the end was in order.
Also, the book cited is based on additional sources. Would the section stand on its own if I listed those sources as well?
Any comments on producing it as a separate article ("Rape as a sexually motivated phenomenom") and linking it as a reference? mbac 7/13/2004 11:56 EDT.
Also, now that I reread the article, the "Rapist Profiles" section would seem to encompass a theory as well. Shouldn't theories on motivation be separated from the main article which simply describes the act, how it's received, and punishments and other forms? Or rather, motivation should make it clear that there are several theories on rape and then either describe each or provide references to sub-articles?
- A separate article might be appropriate, but I felt that the problem was more that there seems to be only one source for that information, and it could be considered controversial. One thing I think we could do is try condensing the section and putting it back in, maybe with a few other sources cited as well? I'm just worried about maintaining objectivity on such a sensitive topic, but it may not even be possible.
- As far the motivational theories, my POV hackles rose at that too, but I wasn't sure what to do about it, as I've heard/read references to similar assessments of rapists' motivations over time. Whether this is propaganda or representing some kind of ideological consensus, I have no idea. I think your idea of breaking that part out into sub-articles is a good one though. Jeeves 17:27, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- I've moved the alternate theories into a separate article "rape as a sexually motivated phenomenom" (better titles anyone?) and linked it at the bottom of the "Rape profiles" section. The rape profiles section should probably be separated out and renamed, but I'll let someone else scratch that itch. mbac 19:29, 13 Jul 2004 UTC