Talk:List of unrecognized higher education accreditation organizations

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Arbustoo (talk | contribs) at 01:29, 6 April 2006 (→Online Christ Centered Ministries' claims: reply). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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This page is meant to complement

List of unaccredited institutions of higher learning as a further resource on higher educational institutions.

Why thank you. No wait, you meant complement. --Calton | Talk 02:09, 21 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. Arbustoo 05:09, 21 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Online Christ Centered Ministries

According to their web site, this organization [1] does not accredit schools, so it should not be listed. JzG said that some schools claim accreditation by OCCM. Who is saying this? --Steve Jackson1 18:43, 3 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I Googled for "accredited by online christ-center ministries" (which was the original spelling when the entry was rmeoved) and got nothing, but when I corrected the spelling and tried again I got this [2], which seemed to support the original addition so I assumed it was just a typo and put it back in. On closer inspection it seems that the first few are only claiming membership, along with "Accredited courses" (from unaccredited institutions). But I agree that at present OCCM seems to be a club for diploma millls, rather than an accreditation mill. Just zis Guy you know? 21:42, 3 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
According to[3] it offered accreditation. Yet, one website then "as of Aug. 2004 a different version ... could be seen where “accreditation” was replaced by “affiliation.” (Web page has been subsequently changed.)" The link I provided has a screen capture of this accreditation mill/ministry scam before 2004. It has clearly offered accrediation in the past despite having no recognition or authorization by any USDE group. Arbusto 00:11, 4 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
JzG is right. And your link is pointing to a personal home page. The org. in question does not accredit. Plus, archive.org does not have any record of the org. claiming accreditation powers. --207.200.116.5 00:37, 4 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
From Sherpherd's website[4]

SBC Accreditations:

  1. Florida Department of Education: Commission for Independent Education
  2. WWAC: Worldwide Accreditation Commission
  3. OCCM
So according to the diploma mill's website this webpage gave them accredition. For that reason alone since this information is out there and viewer's might be misled that OCCM offers approval or accreditation through a recognized median it should stay. Arbusto 01:09, 4 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
This information isn't "out there" for regular viewing. It can only be found by those who specifically seek old copies of it from archive.org, therefore nobody will be misled because only investigators will find it and investigators will certainly find the whole truth: the current Shepherd site does not say accreditation and Online Ministries does not even list Shepherd as a member. --207.200.116.5 01:37, 4 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
There are academic frauds out there who still use Shepherd's worthless diplomas. Groups associated (whether in the past or present) with this academic fraud should be listed. Arbusto 02:05, 4 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You couldn't be more wrong. When searching archive.org, did you miss this link?[5] This is where Shepherd Bible College, in bold letters, says Online Christ Centered Ministries does not offer accreditation. Since their site says this, and since the Online Christ Centered Ministries site (also according to archive.org) has never mentioned anything about accreditation, they do not belong on this list of accreditation associations. --Particulate Matters 21:29, 5 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A philosophical question

It seems to me that the debate above is really about the nature of this list: is it a list of bodies which themselves claim to be acreditaiton agencies, or is it a list of bodies which apparent degree mills claim as accreditors? This is not entirely clear and we should call it one way or the other and make the header unambiguous. Just zis Guy you know? 11:42, 4 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

All groups, whether intentional or not, that offer membership relating to higher education standards should be included. Also the title of the page should remain the same because while some legally don't want to get in trouble for offering "accreditation," the appearance is made that they offer some form of oversight, ie accreditation.
For example, Association of Christian Colleges and Theological Schools is an accreditation mill in Louisiana (a state that has few requirements which attracts many diploma mills). However, this group offers "approval" done in a fashion where if a reader does not pay close attention to the wording they get the impression that it offers accreditation. They give you approval in weeks for $300.00, which at that rate it doesn't even sound like they visit the "schools" they "approve."
These types of groups are what the list is about. Those with no or low standards relating to accreditation without any academic recognition. Arbusto 00:43, 5 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
This list is called the List of unrecognized accreditation associations of higher learning, so anyone on the list must offer accreditation. --Particulate Matters 21:26, 5 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No, the list is currently ambiguous in intent. It needs to be clarified and settled. Just zis Guy you know? 21:42, 5 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No it isn't ambiguous at all. Although Arbusto's intent is very clear. --Particulate Matters 21:47, 5 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Online Christ Centered Ministries' claims

Is there even one shred of evidence from Online Christ Centered Ministries, in their site, materials, statements, etc., that indicates they offer any sort of accreditation? What it looks like to me is Shepherd Bible College listed them on their Accreditation page, then Online Christ complained to them, and they clarified who Online Christ really was. Just a theory, but it would make sense to me. Leave it to some to crucify an organization, and even continue to mislabel an organization, because another organization temporarily misspoke about them. --Particulate Matters 22:10, 5 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
See the Talk page: the article header as written is ambiguous. It is reasonable to construe it as including those groups which degree mills use to pretend credibility. Plus it seems to be run by Gastrich, who is a huge fan of degree mills. Just zis Guy you know? 22:17, 5 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
First, you're not dealing in facts and reality. You're dealing in assumptions and labels. "Gastrich this" and "degree mill" that. The fact is that you avoided my question above because you know the answer and it doesn't fit into your bias.
Online Christ Centered Ministries is not an accreditor and has never claimed to be one. Shepherd Bible College, whether it be a "degree mill" or not is not the point, but thanks for revealing your opinion. Shepherd clearly states, in bold letters, that Online Christ Centered Ministries is not an accreditor. All that is left is your bias and Arbusto's bias and it's awfully difficult to pit facts against one's bias because facts never matter.
Currently, Shepherd Bible College does not claim to have even a membership with the Online Christ Centered Ministries.[6] Likewise, the Online Christ Centered Ministries does not claim to have Shepherd Bible College as a member.[7] So, all we're talking about is Arbusto finding, on archive.org, that Shepherd temporarily listed their membership with Online Christ Centered Ministries on their accreditation page, without specifically stating that they were a membership organization and not an accreditor; which was subsequently removed.

And you want to list Online Christ Centered Ministries on the List of unrecognized accrediting associations. This is incorrect. --Particulate Matters 22:30, 5 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A school has claimed accreditation from this mill in the past and it currently has no accreditation status[8]. Arbusto 00:55, 6 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sorry, but I see no claim of accreditation there. The school writes:
Shepherd Bible College is a member of the (OCCM) On-line Christ Centered Ministries that is a professional association for individuals and ministries proclaiming the true gospel of Jesus Christ (on and off the internet)

Being a member of a professional association is not the same as being accredited by that association. Directly above that quote on the webpage, the school does claim accreditation from WWAC, when it writes: Shepherd Bible College is fully-accredited by the (Worldwide Accreditation Commission) of Christian Educational Institutions

In short, the webpage does not prove that OCCM is an accreditor. We need a real source for this. -- JJay 01:03, 6 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

From Sherpherd's website[9]

SBC Accreditations:

  1. Florida Department of Education: Commission for Independent Education
  2. WWAC: Worldwide Accreditation Commission
  3. OCCM
If you look at OCCM's website it "Recognize[s] competent and credentialed" groups.[10] The poorly worded page is confusing at the very least and deceitful at the very most. Accreditation is to set standards relating to schools. The OCCM claims to do such and as such should be listed as "unrecognized accreditation associations." Just because it doesn't use the word "accreditation" does not mean that's not its purpose. Arbusto 01:13, 6 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Look, you can interpret the wording found on these websites any way you want. The bottom line is that they are not really valid in proving anything. To settle the issue, just add a footnote from a news (Time Magazine, USA today, NY Times, etc) or academic source (book from reputable publisher, etc.) that states that OCCM is an accreditor. I think that would go a long way to settling the issue. -- JJay 01:18, 6 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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