User talk:Urthogie

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Calton (talk | contribs) at 04:44, 4 March 2006 (→‎communication is necessary for collaboration to work). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Old talk page messages are archived here. Feel free to add more comments!

You've been honorable...

I wanted to take a minute to say thank you.

You've been very honorable in our dialogues about the Hip-Hop page. Taking the time to explain your self, and never dismissing my concerns.

One of my mentors taught me that we should not feel privileged by respect, as respect is something that should be inherent in our relationships we people. Respect is something that should be expected, demanded if need be. So I'm not thankful that you've been respectful.

But I am thankful that you have had the ability to approach honorably what is seemingly a difference of opinion. This a trait that I do not often see applied within the online space.

The honor in this dialogue has been that you have allowed a space for others to add on to the conversation. That may be something that is inherent in the entire idea of Wikipedia, but still something that not all people follow.

I will take your guidance in adding on to the discussion of Hip-Hop culture in Wikipedia, in the fashion you have suggested. You have inspired me to learn more.

Peace, --RolandoBrown 11:36, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sound samples

There are two different main ways to put ogg files into articles. See Music of the United States and Music of Nigeria for examples of each -- I prefer the MotUS system, but YMMV. Tuf-Kat 17:19, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I know, that's not possible without changing the template on every article. Tuf-Kat 20:32, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I guess it might be possible, but I don't know how. Tuf-Kat 21:17, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The Village Pump would probably be better. Tuf-Kat 21:52, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template

I have added some optional arguments. Try for example: {{Sample box start|whatever|float=left|margin=0 .5em .5em 0}}. The ugly "margin" parameter could have been replaced by a qif, but Boolean templates appear to be deprecated. - Liberatore(T) 20:06, 21 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Freestyle rap

Exactly which parts of this article are "confusing"? --Jamieli 21:17, 22 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That use of flow is not a slang usage. Flow means to move or run smoothly with unbroken continuity, as in the manner characteristic of a fluid. I don't see how the opening sentence as a whole is in any way confusing. And anyhow, other than the opening sentence, what are the other problems? --Jamieli 10:36, 23 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

FMP

Hi, I'd like to invite you to participate in the Wikipedia:Featured Music Project by signing up on the status page. What you'd do is sign up for one (or more) of eight categories, such as the discography or lead section. No more than once a month, you'd be given an article which is getting close to being ready for WP:FAC, and is only deficient in a few categories. You'd do what you can in your section (and, of course, anything else you like). If a couple of people specialize in each category, we should be able to take some concrete steps towards improvement on a wide range of articles. In addition, you can sign up as a "shepherd" to take articles that meet all the criteria through a peer review and (hopefully) successful candidacy. Tuf-Kat 04:07, 23 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

discussion at Talk:Rapping

I replied.--Greasysteve13 02:10, 24 February 2006 (UTC) I replied to someone else thistime.--Greasysteve13 00:32, 25 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Personal attacks by someone who is farmiliar with the subject of crack cocaine

dude you need to chill out, people are just having fun.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Scott777 (talk • contribs)

ok you are on crack— Preceding unsigned comment added by Scott777 (talk • contribs)

Optimus Rhyme

Hi! I noticed that you placed a {{prod}} tag on the article Optimus Rhyme twice. The proposed deletion scheme is only for uncontested deletions—if an editor removes the tag that is taken as them contesting the lesion. If you think that this article should be deleted you will need to take it to AfD. JeremyA 23:16, 25 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

hyphenation of hip-hop

Hi Urthogie,

You have obviously done a lot of work with hip hop music, and I'd like your opinion on whether or not the article title should be hyphenated. The issue was brought up in the past and never concluded, and I'd like to continue talking about it. If you would like to comment, please go here. Thanks. thejabberwock 05:38, 26 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your help, and for being open-minded. thejabberwock 03:16, 27 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

An anonymous IP has something to say...

please repost dj quik page..it has been vandalized....please protect cat sllepp clown will eat me is vandalizing it....

Ursula Rucker

The first sentence in the article states that she is a "spoken word recording recording artist". She falls into the cat of Alternative hip hop, based on her style of music. The article states: Coincidentally, when Ntozake Shange was unable to supply The Roots with a spoken word contribution for their debut album Do You Want More?!!?!!, they called on Ursula to do it in her stead. The Unlocking, introduced Ursula to the world of progressive hip-hop and led to subsequent invitations to close The Roots follow-up albums Iladelph Halflife and the certified gold record Things Fall Apart.

She is an "urban" poet, which in my opinion is what all hip hop musicians are. :) Also I see that you plan on listening to Mos Def, I strongly recommend him along with Talib Kweli! Cheers, and I hope that answers your question and I'd like to replace the cat properly. KnowledgeOfSelf 12:20, 26 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Black on Both Sides is superb (Know That, Umi Says, Ms.Fat Booty, May-December, basicly the whole damn thing. The New Danger gets better the more you listen to it. I remember buying it, and thinking wtf? :). Common....His old stuff is classic (e.g. Common Sense), I am not very fond of his newer work. Talib's Reflection Eternal LP was amazing, IMO. I have no problem if you create a new category and include her in it. But I strongly feel she belongs in the AHH one still so I would like to add that one back yet keep the slam poets (her work with The Roots, Mos Def, and others strongly cement her there in my opinion). She does her poetry a capella, over jazz beats, (she's been mixed with techno beats) and hip-hop beats. For example her track on The Roots Things Fall Apart, is done over a jazz-esque/hip hop beat (I'm not sure how to classify it to be honest). Her single SupaSista has been mixed a capella, with dance beats, among others.
That is where we differ, I truly like hip-hop with a message. I think Kanye is very clever, and though he samples beats far to often, you can't argue with his choices, Gil-Scott Heron, Otis Redding. I think Mos, and Talib, are the best thing to hit hip-hop in a long time. 7 years later and I still listen to Black Star. I dislike southern rap expect for maybe Outkast. I really enjoy blues, and jazz, The Isley Brothers anyone? :) Since I am from Chicago I grew up with Tung Twista (Twista) old school Common Sense and Da Brat. Who could forget Do or Die as well? I'm also a strong advocate of hip-hop of the 70's and 80's. Not Rappers Delight, but The Message (GMF), I get chills when I hear it still. Also the greatest B.I.G. (Those who put pac in the same class are crazy IMO, Pac was great and he had charisma, but Biggie, was a pure lyricist, and their styles are much to different.) I'm also very much into R.B. and doo-wop, The Temptations, Rockapella, R.Kelly, and Sade Adu. I could go on and on :). Basicly I grew out of gangsta rap and party rap years ago. lol KnowledgeOfSelf 14:21, 26 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I should choose my wording better! I meant we differ with regards to southern rap. :) KnowledgeOfSelf 14:31, 26 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I like the Fugee's in general ,not to big on Hill by herself, Nas, Illmatic and Stillmatic both amazing. God Son and The Lost Tapes were decent. His inbetween albums were very mediocre. (His singles: Shoot Em' Up was very clever, Street Dreams, and K.I.S.S.I.N.G as well). I'm very much into rock and roll (not metal or new rock anything like that lol) But my preference would be hip-hop you could probaly tell from our conversation! KnowledgeOfSelf 14:42, 26 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Most 80's rock is good in my opinion ELO Robert Plant, Queen, David Bowie, old rock and roll, Fats Domino, Bo Diddly, The Beatles, Roy Orbison.

KnowledgeOfSelf 14:57, 26 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hello!

Thanks for the positive feedback on my edits. I've been "welcomed" to this place before, but for whatever reason I've been reluctant to get a username and officially become a Wikipedian (largely owing, I think, to the fact that I'm worried it'll eat away at my time, even as it feeds my head.) Methinks your comments will finally convince me to join up. Thank you.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.49.167.71 (talk • contribs)

French hip hop

Hey Urthogie. I noticed what was going on on the talkpage of the list of French hip hop acts, and I thought I had left a comment there, but I have a bad habit of previewing several times before saving, so I probably never saved it. But anyways, I just wanted to say that part of the problem with the list and categorization of "French" artists is that there are many people who perform in French are not French, but Francophones. Some of them live in France and some live in other countries. Their heritage is varied. So what I think we need is a list of Francophone hip-hop artists, which would include everyone who raps primarily in French or Creole. As for redlinks/blue links on the list page, I think the notability test should be the criteria for determining whether or not an artist's name should be linked, but on the talk page I (thought I had) suggested that someone who speaks French or who is familiar with French and Francophone culture perform the notability test, since I doubt that the google test, etc. will be sufficient to determine notabilityin languages other than English. I've been meaning to start working on Francophone hip hop articles, but I'm swamped right now. I hope to get to them soon. BTW did you know that the Fab Five Freddy article doesn't even mention his appearance in WildStyle? Stay up, --Rockero420 23:06, 27 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Futuristic Sex Robots

Hi Urthogie, just wanted to let you know, I really enjoyed 'arguing' with you about the FSR article and whether they are notable or not. Now it turns out that Cellophane is a member and editing his own entry? Oh god what a moron. I'll let you claim victory on this one I guess :( Consider my delete vote changed Smitz 09:13, 28 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

vfd on ytcracker

someone tried to VfD my article before and failed - read the discussion page - thanks Ytcracker 09:33, 28 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

posted this on my own talk but - i actually didn't write the initial article and i mainly only edit the article whenever someone vandalizes it - checked the Wikipedia:Autobiography and it all makes perfect sense - i just edited marital status based on the autobio standards Ytcracker 09:52, 28 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A request concerning me blanking user warning templates

please leave my history alone

miles davis

any way of incorporating the billy madison reference into the picture tag? i couldnt think of anythingSpencerk 00:04, 1 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Re: hip-hop

I'm as heavily invested in hip-hop culture as you are. Nice to find a like-minded person here. I try to rap, but may or may not continue with it, as I think it'd be egoistic to assume that just because I love rapping I should pursue

Personally, I strongly disagree with the labelling of Aes, Sage, Slug and their ilk as soulless. I have a very hard time listening to all three artists' music, Slug because he aids and abets the emo culture, Aes because his highly esoteric raps are usually more work than pleasure (although he and Busdriver are the two abstract rappers I like the most), and Sage Francis for some combination of the two reasons plus he's got the preachy and sanctimonious nature of a Common or Talib Kweli (or, in my eyes, a J-Live); I feel that Golden Age puritans who hate the innovations of abstract rap and try to say it's "not really hip-hop" do more harm for the culture than those abstract rappers who go too far off the ledge and make unlistenable music (I'm not blaming you at all, just telling you what I percieve.) I think Aesop Rock's imagery is sometimes surreally hilarious, but I'm not defending their work itself, but what they represent for the culture. I believe that because I was attracted to hip-hop in the first place by what appeared to be a generous and compassionate spirit at its core, sort of like a circus big top meritocracy where all were welcomed as long as they could hold it down over beats and they had the love and fire in them. Aes, Slug and Sage-- and even the much wierder, more experimental rappers like Doseone and his Anticon posse-- may not make music I dig, but they're all contributing to the expansion of the big top, helping bring diversity of perspectives to this culture I love.

I'll be happy to send you a compilation of Son House recordings as e-mail attachment MP3s if you'd like. He's the shoesnudes, I mean like the bee's knees-- straight-up fly.

question from a (possibly reformed) vandal

where does it say i can not delete my messages?!

Check out

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Eric Cheng. I wnated to speedy it but now it seems even AfD will have trouble. Dsol 11:55, 2 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

FOR THE LAST TIME

DO NOT POST TO MY TALK PAGE. YOU ARE UNWELCOME THERE. deeceevoice 14:19, 2 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Replied on talk page.--Urthogie 14:28, 2 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

communication is necessary for collaboration to work

This makes about six times now.


THAT'S WHAT ARTICLE


TALK PAGES ARE FOR.


I REPEAT DO NOT POST TO


MY TALK PAGE AGAIN


-- FOR ANY REASON.


deeceevoice 19:44, 2 March 2006

It is normal and reasonable Wikipedia practice to contact another user on their talk page even concerning article discussions. It is rude, petty and childish to behave as you are doing. — Matt Crypto 20:57, 2 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Kindly refrain from such childish, rude, petty characterizations of my comments, Crypto, and get off my back. The article talk page is for discussions of articles, and it's perfectly reasonable to insist that article discussion be confined to that venue. User Urthogie has been asked repeatedly not to post to my talk page -- and that is my right. He's unwelcome, and he's expected to stay away. And I couldn't care LESS what you think of my perfectly reasonable request. deeceevoice 06:25, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I know more about Wikiquette than you, DCV, and your behaviour with your talk page is very unWikipedian. You are mistaken if you think you have some fundamental "right" to your talk page. If you continue acting in a way that's not beneficial to the project (e.g. being rude and refusing to communicate with others), then it's quite possible you will lose your privilege to order your own talk page as you wish (in the same way you lost your privilege to order your user page). — Matt Crypto 15:28, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I know more about Wikiquette than you, DCV Looks like you missed WP:DICK, though. Too bad. --Calton | Talk 04:44, 4 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
This is what frustrates me about her claim that she doesn't edit wikipedia anymore.--Urthogie 21:01, 2 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Her blanking out of comments she doesn't like is kind of like kids putting their fingers in their ears and yelling "La La La I Can't Hear You!!!" *Dan T.* 00:43, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Shrug. Some people are sensitive about the sound of high-pitched whining. --Calton | Talk 04:44, 4 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
And the same goes for you, Dtobias. I'm done here. *x* deeceevoice 06:25, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I will continue to post on your talk page as long as we're both editing the same article; its necessary.
It's understandable: if only the developers had thought to include talk pages with the articles, so editors could discuss article issues in an appropriate place. Damn the developers! Maybe they can include it in the next revision.
P.S.: WP:DICK makes good reading, Urthogie. You might learn from it. --Calton | Talk 04:44, 4 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A poorly spelled question from Scotty

why is it wrong to get rid of MY messages, i should be able to deleate them if i wont to, and if you dont wont me to then why dont you block my ablility to?

I'm sorry, we seem to have come to a misunderstanding. You seem to be under the impression thatI give a fuck.

Please revert change

Please refer to This Discussion that lead to the WP:MUSIC proposed change It should clear up how and why TUF KAT came up with the wording for and the reasoning for the changes made. Thank you so much! PS-Mos Def and and the Pharcyde got to where they are today by love and support from the underground, and it is articles about the underground that are being deleted for not meeting WP:MUSIC, when in fact if we make this one change, actually notable artists will have a stronger set of criteria to stand on. Madangry 20:10, 2 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Regarding your "By the way" on my talk page: That's a little silly. I believe underground music is just as valid and important as mainstream music. Now this proposed change is not proposing encyclopedic standards aside to promote underground music, rather we are simply trying to prevent articles from being placed on deletion on the basis of "It does not meet WP:MUSIC" when lots of underground acts can't meet those mainstreem guidlines. If an artist is not-notable or not verifiable, let it be deleted...but not on the basis that they haven't been mentioned in SPIN or not had a gold record etc. Madangry 21:00, 2 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Also, please note that something doesn't need to meet all requirements of WP:MUSIC to pass it: just one of them. So there's no expulsion of underground artists." With this new change I wholeheartedly agree. Now if only I could convince the fine folks who are marking underground artists and releases for deletion and furthermore those who deem the article as non-notable "per WP:Music" without researching the group this basic and SO TRUE statement. Thanks for liking the change. I'm an advocate, but TUF KAT and Rob came up with it. Madangry 21:18, 2 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

please help with category

Hey Urthogie. I see you're part of a project dealing with categories. I want to create a category but can't seem to find a page containing an 'idiots guide to creating categories'. The category I want to create is, "Wikipedians censored by Islamist editors". It's unusual & you may find it questionable. If so, feel free to ask me about it & I'll explain my motives. It probably needs to go directly under "Category:Wikipedians" as none of the Subcategories from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Wikipedians seem suitable. Can you help me please? Veej 21:08, 2 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks for your help, Urthogie. You can see what I've created at Category:Wikipedians_censored_by_Islamist_editors. By the way, I feel a little unformfortable myself about this category because I don't want it to be hijacked by nutters. I'm not deliberately trying to be inflammatory & I don't want to offend people. I feel have have been bullied recently though. I just read user:OceanSplash's comments here. Though I disagree with user:OceanSplash on so many issues & believe he is generalizing followers of a major world religion, he does highlight a lack of a support structure for people critical of Islamists. I just want the category help people find support, so the don't feel alone. I'm definately not trying to foster hate. One more thing, do you have any suggestions for anything I can do to avoid this category being hijacked by extremists, like rewording the description etc? Veej 23:23, 2 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oops... with regard to hip-hop...

Urthogie,

Nice to spark a discussion. As to the relationship of those zany abstract fellas to poverty, I have almost no idea where you're coming from, because it appears as though the ones who claim to speak for the underclass are dudes like Common, Kweli, and them fellas from Little Brother. Aesop Rock might have made an album about the struggles of nine-to-fivers, but he doesn't really fetishize poverty, at least not insofar as I understand things.

KRS-One drives me absofuckinglutely crazy. He, above all others, claims to be a leader in the hip-hop culture-- declaring hip-hop a distinct culture before the United Nations, operating the Temple of Hiphop, et cetera-- but then he goes and makes totally insane statements like the one he made about how "black people cheered on 9/11 because World Trade Center security guards were racists. It's achingly stupid. And the dunderheadedness extends to his rap, as well-- or at least, those songs that I've heard (I've found most of the early stuff unlistenable and had trouble getting through it, but maybe I'm guilty of judging too quickly; all I know is that the stuff where he's celebrated for his lyrics more than his "edutainment" principle-- i.e. the middle period stuff, Return of the Boom Bap and that-- is simply some of the most annoying and abysmal faux-witty stuff I've ever heard.) He doesn't even try to flow on beat, which I could tolerate if he were rapping as though he had a brain in his head. But no-- he acts like he's the greatest rapper ever, but his actual lyrics are boring. Not to mention he doesn't appear to have an ounce of respect for the intelligence of anyone listening to him. What I can say for him is that "Wannabeemceez" is a pretty dope track, that the track where he dreams he's a blunt getting smoked by all his rapper pals is clever, and that "Build Ya Skillz" contains one of my favourite lines in the genre's history:

"NONE of your lyrics um feelin' em!... YOU RHYME... like you should be wearin' an apron scrapin' a pot wid a name like MIRIAM!!!

That I can't front on. He does deliver his rhymes with zest. And over the right beat, I can tolerate him, I suppose. But to my eyes he is, with the possible exception of Calypso Gene, far and away the most unjustly revered figure in the entire culture; and that's saying something.

I think Aesop Rock and some of the other abstract cats are clever writers, and sometimes one of them will come up with something genuinely beautiful; and of course they get to work with genius producers like RJD2 and Blockhead and Ant and Jel, which means I can't ignore their work even if I want to. But my favourite contemporary MCs are, I think, these cats, the only two who seem to be able to talk about absolutely any subject with honesty and intelligence, totally free of condescension, pretentiousness, didacticism, and lame bromides about how we've "gotta rise up" to "save hip-hop" from The Great Satan, the supposed destructive force (which in certain cases is actually as rich a repository of vital and engaging music as the Dearest Mother is.

Scotty has a request

stop deleteing my stories!! You guys yell at me for deleteing my messages but you guys can go ahead and delete every story i have ever created, and they were not all bullshit. If you wont people to contribute to your website then i would recomend not deleting what they write!

Ongoing hip-hop discussion

Re: Undergrounders becoming popular and makin' crazy lucci

I've developed a generally positive perspective toward talented underground brothers makin' a little shrap and gaining a wider, if potentially less discerning fanbase. In fact, I'd be absolutely stone-cold thrilled if people stopped looking to the same four or five acts-- none of whom I like very much at all, especially not these guys-- as the paragons of "conscious rap", the only ones mainstream rap culture seems to know exist.

I'd love for Lyrics Born to be able to fulfill his dream of working with Dr. Dre-- he'd be able to match Eminem step for step. I'd love for Kanye to start throwing more beats to undergrounders (then again, he made a really terrible choice last time he did that). LB scored a Coca-Cola commercial and Kweli's doing a video game, but I ain't made at them cats at all; if moves like that increase their fanbase, more power to 'em. What it means is that they're gonna have more money at their disposal to make the music they wanna be making-- and all that matters to me is that that music is good.

Re: Ant of Atmosphere I feel like Ant's production has been steadily improving; there's jams on the new Atmosphere jawn and the Brother Ali joint that I can listen to for the production alone, and I'm much more of a lyrics-oriented listener, so that's saying something. He's dabbling a lot more in funk and soul as a basic template, and the soundscapes he's crafted on those two albums are mondo entertaining no matter what kind of tripe (too emo in Slug's case, over-aggressive in Ali's) is being spit over 'em.

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