Talk:Iranian peoples

Archive: 1

Merging the article

I have not still seen any sources regarding existence of such a term. I also asked for RELEVANT refernces supporting existence of this ethnic group (????) but there was no acceptable reply. I strongly suggest to merge this article with article Iranian languages which at least it is a scientific one. Even majority of references in this article are talkning about Iranian languages not a new/unknown/extinct ethnic group made by some users. or others are silent about it. Diyako Talk + 17:53, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

If you must merge, I suggest merging with Demographics of Iran. It makes more sense.--Zereshk 18:18, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Don't merge. "Iranian peoples" is a valid term. This article is well-cited. --Khoikhoi 19:35, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Well-cited???! So why the term "Iranian people" is invisible in all of those silent sources? Actually this term has no scientific base and only is a simple political hypothesis.

Diyako Talk + 19:40, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

You just don't like it because as a Kurd you deny having any relation to the Persians and other Iranian peoples. This CIA map uses the term, why can't you? --Khoikhoi 19:46, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

First, I do not reply your personal attack just beacuse it is your POV. But actually I am a neutral wikipedian and cannot simply accept any unproved hypotheses. also i wander why you did not provide a source from this so-called well-cited article?!! You dear khoikhoi show me a map for this unknown Iranian people ethnic group, but forget that maps are used for showing distribution of populations not for "proving" issues like this. I hope either you provide a source regarding term Iranian people or help wikipedia by keeping the articles neutral and scientific. Diyako Talk + 19:59, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I dont agree with a merge either. Im not sure why Diyako is so persistent in merging. What are his reasons? What does he mean by "scientific"? The word Iran and Iranian has been used in Greek sources since 300BC.--Zereshk 19:56, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Dear Zereshk.

I did not discuss using or not using the term Iranian in ancient times. I say there is an Iranian speaking language family (in reality), but there is not an Iranian people as this article strangely claims. Even I can accept use of the term Iranian in ancient times (although there are people who oppose this) but not in this way that this article claims. Seriously it has no scientific base i mean there is nothing called Iranian peoples in REALITY.

Diyako Talk + 20:13, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

He doesn't like the term because he doesn't believe it is true. He denys that the Kurds are an Iranian people for one thing. --Khoikhoi 20:06, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I never expected such a argument from you. please act civil.

Diyako Talk + 20:13, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, instead of deleting an article with such importance as this, why dont you edit and fix those parts that you mention? The term "Iranian people" does not refer to an ethnic group. In that sense you are correct, and I dont think Khoikhoi is saying that either. The term however refers to more than one ethnic group. It necessarily has no one-to-one correspondence with ethnicity. That is why if you type in "iranian people" in Encyclopedia Iranica's search box, you will see the term used in 5 articles.--Zereshk 20:25, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply. I actully do not support deleting this page. Instead I suggest to use its stuff to create or improve other related articles. Also the article as you mentioned above can be redirected to Demographics of Iran or Iranian languages.

Diyako Talk + 21:09, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

It's a valid term and deserves an article of its own. Please stop. --Khoikhoi 21:16, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

No Original Research. Wikipedia is not the place for original research. Citing sources and avoiding original research are inextricably linked: the only way to verifiably demonstrate that you are not doing original research is to cite reliable sources which provide information that is directly related to the article, and to adhere to what those sources say. I disagree with existence such a article. Diyako Talk + 21:22, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

How about this? --Khoikhoi 21:56, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Oh Dear Khoikhoi!! That Iranian website is still Under Construction!! Sory, it is not a source. Come on help.

Diyako Talk + 22:03, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Ok, Thank you all, I merge it with demographics of Iran and other related articles.

Diyako Talk + 23:02, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

What the hell? We never came to a consensus! Wait a second! --Khoikhoi 23:04, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Dear Khoikhoi, I've been waiting since long ago.Diyako Talk + 11:34, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

There was no consensus!!!!!!!!!!Buddy you are doing this because you see that Kurds are going become defined as an Iranian people so you just want to change the definition of Iranin to lingustic! Don't change anything.69.196.139.250 03:45, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

It Seems the Articles will not be Merged; People arre not in favour & It will do academic Harm We won;t merge the articles. No merging. We are against that BAD IDEA. .69.196.139.250 03:45, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Dear Anon, Glad to see you signing at least part of your posts. If you don't want the article be merged you should follow the Wikipedia policy and provide relevant sources. Wikipedia is not the place for blablabla such as this boggus article. Also note that I still do not support deletion of its stuff, but I neutrally suggest to merge it with its relevant article(s). Thanks.Diyako Talk + 11:34, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Since there is no source supprting this uncited Original Research and wikipedia cannot be a platform for political aims, I'll merge the content of the article to its real and relevant page i.e. to the Iranian languages and redirect page to the Demographics of Iran.

When you provide your sources according to wikipedia policy, then you can have such a article.

Diyako Talk + 16:35, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

I totally oppose to this idea. It is pure nonsense. The term Iranian people has been continously in use for at least 3000 years up until now. In the beginning it was more of an ethnic classification, while more and more it has got a cultural and linguistic meaning as well. How can Kurdish people, Lur people, Baluch people, Bakhtiari people each have a page, while Iranian people having some the most profound and ancient history and languages of our planet be not worth having a page? Diyako, I truly believe you should be banned for showing such open hostility towards others. You are just about the only one supporting the idea and are single-handedly rushing to delete the article. You have no right to do so. Shervink 16:41, 23 February 2006 (UTC)shervink

Dear Shervink, have you any sources?

Diyako Talk + 16:42, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

If you mean sources that Iranian people exist, yes I do. Although it is obvious enough, if you insist on seeing written proof of the existense of Iranian people, I'll suggest you a few sources as soon as I find the time. Meanwhile, stop removing articles from Wikipedia. Shervink 23:20, 23 February 2006 (UTC)shervink

Dear Shervink:

Wikipedia is not the place for Original Research. Citing sources and avoiding original research are inextricably linked: the only way to verifiably demonstrate that you are not doing original research is to cite reliable sources which provide information that is directly related to the article, and to adhere to what those sources say.

Every uncited nonsense are removed from wikipedia. Since long ago that there has been a dispute on this article no one could provide a source. Untill now I just respected other peoples uncited and biased POV.

I know there is an Iranian peoples but it has its own article => Demographics of Iran. Either you can move 'demographics of Iran' to this page. This is a good suggestion. Once again wikipedia is not our personal website to write whatever we like; Credible and neutral citation needed. It's not me that removes this article, it's wikipedia policy.

Diyako Talk + 23:40, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

For an online source about Iranian people (which also states that Kurds are Iranian people), you can refer to [1]. There are numerous books which talk partly or entirely about Iranian people, for example:

Frye, R.N., History of Ancient Iran, Munich, 1984.

Curtis, V.S., Persian Myths, London, British Museum Publications, 1993.

Encyclopedia Iranica, edited by E. Yarshater.

As you see this is not my original research. If you could prove the non-existence of Iranian people, now that would be original research for which you might get a noble prize!!!Shervink 23:47, 23 February 2006 (UTC)shervink

You have not posted what those sources claim, what is their defintion of Iranian peoples. Is it the same is claimed here in this article?!!! (I do not think so).

Let's see what those sources say. Write it here.

Also source for your online reference is this article of wikipedia!!!

Source: Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia © 2001-2006 Wikipedia contributors (Disclaimer)

This article is licensed under the GNU Free Documentation License.

Diyako Talk + 23:54, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Till now I rejected one of your sources but I do not want noble prize. I want you all guys be neutral and help wikipedia in a neutral way. Thanks.

Diyako Talk + 00:05, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Diyako's suggestion for merge, due to lack of neutral evidence. Since the relationship discussed here is just linguistic, it is better to include the useful info. of this page (linguistic stuff) in the Iranian languages and then delete Iranian people. The ethnic stuff and genetic relations can be transferred to the individual ethnic pages of Persians, Azeris, Kurds, Balochis,etc. Another solution would be to REDIRECT Iranian people to Demographics of Iran. Heja Helweda 00:26, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Heja helweda's suggestion is more accurate. I agree with it.

Diyako Talk + 01:38, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. There are two different pages for Arabs (the race) and Arabic language although similar to “Iranian people”, Arabs are also defined by the language and many of them are not racially Arab. however they still have different pages for language and ethnicity. same goes for turkish people and turkish language

Gol 07:14, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

That is not a good reason, Because there is an Arab or Turk but there is no iranian people except in the way explained here in its own article.

Diyako Talk + 07:25, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

That article talks about Iran's people. This one is about Iranian peoples. Do you at all understand what a huge difference that is? What is the use in suggesting sources if you don't read them? Do I have to read and summarize for you? Or is it you who should refrain from editing articles which he has no knowledge of? Are you seriously claiming that the existense of Iranian people is original research??? Do you think Cyrus the Great and Darius had the current Iranian nation within it's current political boundaries in mind when they spoke of themselves as Kings of the Iranians? Which people is the Shahnameh about? Is it about Persians only? How many instances of Iranian do you see in it? Shervink 07:43, 24 February 2006 (UTC)shervink

Hi, At the beginning of this section I explained it for another user (Zereshk). I'm not discussing ancient Iranian peoples. If you think the article should be about ancient Iranian peoples, then we should delete the article and rewrite it. Maybe i can also help by improving the article. Thanks. Diyako Talk + 07:58, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

I really don't have time for this nonsense anymore. I don't have to prove the existense of Iranian people. If you don't think we exist, the reason is either your ignorance or your bias, or a combination of both. Do whatever you want. Vandalism can be dealt with in other manners. Shervink 07:50, 24 February 2006 (UTC)shervink

Yes, vandalism can mean invention of racistic new terms. Neutrality means dealing with it and asking for source or nominating it for deletion from wikipedia. Diyako Talk + 07:58, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

First, I am not a racist. I'm not the one denying the existence of far more than 100 million people. Second, the article is already referenced very well. Have you taken a look at this site (already in the reference list) which has the study of Iranian people as its main theme? It is a University group, by the way, so don't claim it is original research of mine or whatever. This site also mentions Kurds as Iranian people, which I think should be of interest to you. [2]Shervink 13:02, 24 February 2006 (UTC)shervink

I did not say you are a racist but you for no good reason support such a unknown term. Yes, I have taken a look at that Iranian website. It has nothing to say. It does not clarify what does Iranian people mean here. Sorry, that's not a source.

Diyako Talk + 13:13, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Also do not accuse me of denying southwestern Asian people, (No personal attack). Sure they exist but cramming them here in this article has no good reason. they all have their own articles. Iranian languages and demographics of Iran.

Diyako Talk + 13:22, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

It is an academic group at the University of London. Most of the articles are not even by Iranians, and the articles are scholarly and referenced, as far as I can see. This is definitely a valuable source, which we should all use to expand our knowledge on Iranian and related people. Please stop this strange behavior now, for the sake of good wikipedian manners. Shervink 13:27, 24 February 2006 (UTC)shervink

It seems that you are very new on wikipedia. That website has nothing to do with Iranian people. It has no defination of Iranian people. what is Iranian people? can you show what that website say about it? What this article (on WP) claims is untrue. the defination of Iranian people is people who live in Iran and it includes Azeri people too.

The only way to verifiably demonstrate that you are not doing original research is to cite reliable sources which provide information that is directly related to the article, and to adhere to what those sources say.

Once againg what is the defination of Iranian people?!

Diyako Talk + 13:35, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

One of your problems is that you do not trust me (as every above accusations). None of my suggestions are against Iranian culture and history. I just want to clarify unclear points and give a clear defination of Iranian and South Asian articles. If you want the problems be solved you should see me as a wikipedian not enemy of yours then you see that what I'm doing is not against Iranians. If you (all sides) follow me you will lose nothing.

Diyako Talk + 14:35, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't see you as an enemy of mine per se, but your behavior suggests a strong anti-Iranian sentiment. I don't mind, you have a right to have your own opinion about anything including Iran. But editing articles on wikipedia is neither a matter of trust, nor a matter of following you or anybody else for that matter. You have repeatedly said that this article is racistic (more openly so on your talk page than here), without any proof or whatever. You are claiming Iranian people don't exist. The burden of proof (as if such a ridiculous claim could be proved) rests with you, not me. Nevertheless, we have provided a lot more proof to you than your funny claim deserved. Iranian people are defined as those living in greater Iran since the older times of the Persian empire and even before, which includes many of those areas which were part of the former Persian empire, many of these people are speaking Iranian languages, but what they all have in common is that Iranian culture has had the major role on forming their habits and culture. That's what you would understand after reading most of the sources provided (the papers on the website, plus the books, especially that on Persian Myths which defines itself as dealing with the ancient beliefs of the Iranian people, within the first pages.) If you don't believe me and don't like to find it in a library some where, just try finding some parts of it in google print! The website also inludes very detailed descriptions of the term Aryan and its relation to Iran as well as its use, and cites further articles on the topic, all very recent. The latter might also be of interest to Aucaman who is suggesting that that word is racistic. It is not (unless used in a very special context by a German supporting certain ideas of their past), as you can clearly see from these sources. Shervink 15:13, 24 February 2006 (UTC)shervink

Good, you claim there are sources for current claims on the article, which ones? can you link? how they define Iranian peoples? You refered to Ancient Iranian peoples. Ok, no problem, good suggestion. Lets start it. But first let's delete this article and redirect it to demographics of Iran OR move demographics of Iran to this page [ Iranian peoples ]. Also do not forget that according to wikipedia policy every editor may remove uncited stuf, like this article. If I do not insist and just suggest you to agree with my suggestion is because i just respect you. Diyako Talk + 15:58, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

I read your discussions. 1. The article has been written in the same line as articles like Proto-Indo-Europeans and categories like Category:Indo-European peoples, Indo-Iranian. So this is not a sigled out article.

2. The word Iranian people has not been defined in current article as a pure ethnic group. It is an ethnolinguistic set of people. Even a better definition in my mind is ethno-linguistic and cultural group.

3. Classifying people based on their langugae and culture does not have anything with valuing them. So it has nothing to do with racism. We have Europe as a cultural continent and also indian subcontinent. We are not saying that Iranians are the best people in the world! You may even find terms like ethnic europeans in the literature. [3] 4. The word Iranian people has been used in many academic sources. The article is well cited. Here is also another example of such usage : in brittanica: [4], in scientific literatures:[5], news: (ethnic Iranians) [6][7][8] United nation’s definition for Lor as ethnic Iranian: [9] Sooni Taraporevala uses the word ethnic Iranian: [10] definition of Tajiks as “ethnic Iranians“: [11]

5. There many people in Iran and Tajikistan who are not associated with any known ethnic groups. They are neither persian not azeri nor kurd. But they define themselves as Iranian (call it ethnic or whatever). They have mixed genes ! but Iranian culture!

6. I am generally vey unhappy with most of genetic evidences that are provided in wikipedia pages about races. Most of these analysis are bullshit. Moreover: If I have adopted Persian culture but one of my kidney genes looks like arab's one and the gene responsible for concentration of sodium in my urine look like German, am I Persian or arab or German ? I recommend those who are concerned with racism, to stop looking for genes. Instead look for culture and language. Hilter also based all his works on reseach articles by famous geneticians of his time! Time passed and geneticians understood that most of their findings and conclusions were bullshit. I have seen such genetic analysis in many other wikipedia pages as well (Kurdish and Azerbaijani).

7.For those who are very concerned with racism: If we want to be on the safe side, we shoud delete wikipedia pages like Kurdish people , Persian people and so on. European governments does not track ethnic and religious classifications in the national census. Why ? due to the danger of racism. Why we should address them in wikipedia ? So let’s delete Kurdish people and Persian people page all together.[12].

8. In summary, as people probably do not like to delete pages like Kurdish people or Persian people etc, this article is also quite OK in view of pages like Proto-Indo-Europeans. In summary I think we are wasting our time. This page is OK. and there are many supporting evidences. Again I believe that Iranian people is more a cultural and linguistic term than anything else. However as you can see in the sources above, it has been also used to refer to an ethnic superfamily. --Gorbeh15:41, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

It's not my problem to delete persian people or Kurdish people. You can go ahead and delete both. Also sorry, You could not provide a source regarding who are Iranian peoples. and according to wikipedia policy any editor can remove uncited stuff. please Find a defination for who are Iranian peoples.

Diyako Talk + 15:58, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

OK ! let's go step by step. I offered these sources to show that "Iraian people" exists and the term is used in many places and it is not restricted to Iran. It apparently includes people of Iraq, Tajikistan and even india. It means the pages "Iranian people" in wikipedia can exist. The next step is how to write the page. But first let's agree on the first step. (As we are not expert we can only search the web. and the web does not contain the big majority of sources.) Again let's take the first step .... --Gorbeh16:20, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Dear Gorbeh, I never opposed existing Iranian peoples. I even have suggested to move a page which already exists there. (rename the demographics of Iran to Iranian peoples). In fact if you carefully follow my posts I oppose the way this term has been clarified here. An original research page which deserves a personal website not wikipedia Diyako Talk + 16:28, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

I just tried to answer a few issues that you raised: you said:

1. I have not still seen any sources regarding existence of such a term. 2. I also asked for RELEVANT refernces supporting existence of this ethnic group. 3. I'll merge the content of the article to its real and relevant page i.e. to the Iranian languages and redirect page to the Demographics of Iran..

I think I could show that 1. the term exist. 2. Even it is used to refer to ethnicity. (Although I personally do not like it and I see it more as a cultural group.) 3. I think I showed that merging with Demographics of Iran is not a correct act, as it is used in my sources to refer to people of india, tajikistan and iraq.

But! as you said the problem is partially solved. There is one point that I would like to mention. Many of the main articles about Iran has been written by experts themselves. I know of a few researchers who wrote wikipedia pages about Iran. We should not simply destroy pages unless we have clear evidence that a statement is wrong. Give me time to think and provide some more references. One last point is that these terms are not mathematical terms. The definitions are generally vague. But as I said, we have terms like ethnic europeans and europe as a cultural continent. You may ask what is the definition of european culture or Iranian culture. I think you also see that although it is difficult to define terms, still we can not deny their existance. I offeres in the above a United nation definition for Kurds and Lor, as Iranian people and ethnic Iranians. The terms are even used in official documents. and you probably agree that we do not have access to many documents through the web, even the references at the bottom of this article. --Gorbeh16:51, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Dear Gorbeh, According to wikipedia policy you should cite reliable sources which provide information that is DIRECTLY related to the article, not in a page there is a mention of Iranians x or Iranian y. If you find reliable source about for exemple Iranian x, that source does not belong here, it belongs to its relevant article. Here we are not creating a new definition of thnigs by comparising or personal argument. I wonder how there is not even stub definition on 100 milion people?? even unscientific one.

Diyako Talk + 17:07, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. There is no need for a stub. Is there any stub for europeans ??? Can you deny their existence ? About sources, we have already a list of sources at the bottom of the page. have you read all those books ?! I have already told you why I provided those pages. I just wanted to reject some of your baseless claims. When UN defines Kurds and Lors as Iranian people, it means Iranian people exist. I do not think I claimed that my sources contain definition of Iranian people. When britanicca uses the term iranian people it means they exist unless you provide a source about their extinction. --Gorbeh17:22, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

According to wikipedia policy pages who are not acceptable and never published will be removed. According to wikipedia policy only one who think a stuff should be included in the article must provide source not the opposer, and here I'm the opposer. that UN is not about Iranian people but about Kurds and even it i did not see claim Kurds are Iranian people. It is another issue, and does not belong here but Kurdish peoples talk page.

Diyako Talk + 17:41, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

To Diyako:

So what is your definition for a group of people who speak one of the languages of the Iranian branch? You can not just call them Indo European because they obviously have closer linguistic connection with each other than they have with the rest of the Indo European speakers. There is a group of people who speak languages that are named Iranian. What is your name for them?

Gol 17:02, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Dear Gol.

Thank you for your question, I wish other users asked me this from beginning instead of continuous accusatuions. Before this I tried to get a well-cited definition of that in its related article Iranian languages. If we agree that this issue must be discussed there we can very soon find the definition.

Diyako Talk + 17:16, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

More info: I think every one agree that Europe is Cultural and Historical continent. Here I would like to say that: we have also Iranian cultural continent. Encyclopedia iranica defined is scope based on this. If we can define Iranian culture and cultural continent (which includes languages too), then there should be no problem to define members of this cultural continent. -- Gorbeh17:10, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Good, Iranian cultural continent is another issue. If you think you can provide relevant sources for that start it. Besides I'm not going to interfere.Diyako Talk + 17:24, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

"Iranian people" is not just about languages. There exist a culture behind it. Language is only a part of it as I said ans sources above. Even Proto-Indo-Europeans which is a much more general term contains much more than language (see the article). --User:Gorbeh17:28, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

You think so? Then please cite reliable sources which provide information that is directly related to Iranian peoples. Diyako Talk + 17:52, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Actually there is already such a page but it is to be expanded: Iranian continent. --Gorbeh17:30, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

I have already checked Google for Iranian continent and it is manily a geological term not cultural. I have suggested delete for that page.Heja Helweda 18:24, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

I personally think Iranian people should be defined as people who speak one of the Iranian languages. For now I think we need to focus on language not culture we can have a separate page for culture but the definition of Iranian people should be mainly about language. Of course language brings culture with itself and is one of the most important part of each culture but I don’t think we can define Iranian people as people who practice Iranian culture. The right definition is people who speak an Iranian language. Some editors are worried that the term “Iranian” might confuse people and make them think we are talking about Iranian citizens. I am not too worried about this myself since the definition is clearly mentions in this page but if those editors are still worried then we can change the name to Indo Iranian. Just as people who speak an Indo European language are called Indo European, then the people who speak and Indo Iranian language can be called Indo Iranian.

Gol 17:50, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

I do not think there is any room for confusion. Because we do not have pages in wikipedia based on nationality like American people, Iraqi People, Pakistani people and so on. There is no room for confusion. besides when we have a term like indian continent, it does not mean those areas are in the territory of indea as a country.--Gorbeh17:58, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

There are already many pages like American people or Canadian people. If there are not still pages for some others, is because no one paid attention. I can right know make those pages. Diyako Talk + 18:08, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

There are no pages which such titles !!! The name of the article is not American people or Canadian people. Read your sources before discussion. --Gorbeh20:17, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Dear Gorbeh

I don’t think it is confusing either especially since it is defined very clearly that Iranian people are people who speak and Indo Iranian language. However some of the editors are extremely worried so I though maybe we can compromise and instead of Iranian use the term Indo Iranian. But in general I agree that it is not confusing. There is a country Germany and there is also the term Germanic people same can be said about Iran.

Gol 20:30, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

I think there can be no confusion. Even if, we simply have to be careful in how we write things, not delete an article!!! Shervink 20:38, 24 February 2006 (UTC)shervink

Deletion

According to above discussion and reasons I'm going to nominate the article for deletion.

Don't worry, the admin who will come to deletion won't delete it suddenly but first researchs the matter (Maybe he won't delete it at once). If once in future you could provide related sources, then rewriting it is not a difficult matter and I'll help by improving it.

Diyako Talk + 20:40, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

That is very wrong we decided to discuss the issue. You should not delete it. Respect other people's opinions. We can talk about changing the article but not deleting it while there are so many editors who are saying that it is a valuable article. I though we could discuss it rationally but you proved me wrong with you sudden action. we did not reach any decision. there is a page called German language and there is a page called Germanic people why cant the same be about Iran?

Gol 21:38, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

In fact as you see after I wrote that post, did not put the delete tag in the article, that is because of your (User Gol) rational arguments.

Diyako Talk + 21:46, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

There are a group of people who speak the Iranian languages (Indo Iranian languages) we can either call them Iranian or Indo Iranian or Iranic. However they do exist and therefore this article should exist. but we can change the name to Iranic or Indo Iranian.

Gol 22:25, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

I'll reply to your last post after I explained for Zereshk that his sources are not sufficnet and relevant.

Diyako Talk + 23:43, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

'Aryan' is a racist word?

Really Aucaman? Please explain :) Smitz 11:48, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, really. This is the first source in the Aryan article. See how it says the phrase is "no longer in technical use"? That's what I was referring to. Even when it was used in the technical sense (which is no longer acceptable), the term was used to refer to the ethnicity of the Proto-Indo-Iranians (even this by itself is controversial). The Proto-Indo-Iranians lived more than 4,000 years ago. The modern Iranians have very little to do with the Proto-Indo-Iranians in terms race or ethnicity. To somehow try to re-introduce the word Aryan as the race or ethnicity of the modern Iranians is neither acceptable nor accurate. Where are the sources for this anyway? Aucaman^Talk 13:40, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

I do not think we are supporting racism by writing pages about Aryans or Iranian people. see above for my viewpoints. --Gorbeh15:55, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

No I just want to know why people are throwing around the word "Aryan" without knowing what it means. Aucaman^Talk 16:22, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

About the word Aryan: I think it is a victim of politics. The word did exist before Hitler. And it did not carry with itself anything indicating that such people are nice or beautiful or have high quality genes! Inversely there were a lot of sources saying that they were dark skin people. However Hitler abused the word. and when Iranian recieved his ideas they were surprised how nice this race was and they were unaware of it. Anyway, I think the reason that the word is not used is simply political and to suppress neo-Nazis. If there were not these neo-nazis in europe, the word would come back to academia.--Gorbeh17:48, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Read what I said. The word has nothing to do with modern "Iranians". It is used to refer to people who lived MORE THAN 4,000 years ago. There's no genetic or ethnic relation. Even if the word hadn't been corrupted by Nazis, it still wouldn't apply to the modern Iranians. The point I'm trying to make is that most of this article is personal opinion and research, which is not allowed in Wikipedia. Aucaman^Talk 19:27, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Please also take a look at these .[13][14], and maybe also the references therein. The word is still in academic use. It is related to the words Iran and Iranian, but of course there is not necessarily an ethnic relation to all Iranians of today. Shervink 19:46, 24 February 2006 (UTC)shervink

To Aucaman: Who defines academia ? When we are talking on a subject e.g. Persian literature, american universities or encyclopedia britannica are not in a position to say what should be in use and what not. We should see whether the term is also in use in our academia or not. I also did not say that modern Iranians are or are not aryans. I am just saying that the word is out of in the west due to political issues and nazism. The word Iran literary means "land of Aryan". So discussing such issue is completely relevant here. --Gorbeh20:13, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

It means land of Aryans, but who said Aryan is an ethnicity? Aryan means "noble". Is "noble" an ethnicity or people? And no, you have not produced any paper by any academic source that says Aryan is an ethnic group. Aryan is a self-designation meaning "noble". Your insistence to use this word in other contexts without much reason only further proves your bias. Read WP:NOR. Where are the sources of your information? You're supposed to do your research first then cite them here, not the other way around. Aucaman^Talk 02:57, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

I never said Aryan refers to an ethnic group (a well defined genetic pool). I am not at expert in the field. I personally think this is a very difficult subject (or even impossible) for today's researchers to investigate this issue genetically. I have only said it is not about racism in our context. Today the word "Aryan" is only a name like "OXFORD" or "KURD" for instance. When you are using the word "Kurd" or "Oxford", you do not have even in mind what is the literary meaning of the words. Today, the words are only names. When an iranian uses the word aryan, it does not bring to mind its very original meaning. It is just a name. --Gorbeh08:46, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

This page is not up for deletion

Up til this point, users User:Heja Helweda, User:Diyako, and User:Aucaman have not convinced the majority (me, User:Khoikhoi, User:Shervink, User:Gorbeh, User:Gol, User:Tajik, among others) their reasons for deleting/merging this article.

User Diyako, who is spearheading this campaign, claims that he has a right to delete and merge the article on the basis of "Iranian people" not being a valid term. [15] and that there is no such ethnistic name.

"Original research" in fact means questioning the validity of external sources, the very thing Diyako is doing. Especially that he hasnt provided any opposing counter evidence aside from personal convictions. And even then, he could only add those counter sources if any, to the article, not erase it. Aside from the other users involved here, here are my sources on the matter to add to the other sources alredy provided:

1. Encyclopedia Iranica uses the term "Iranian people". So it is a valid term.
2. The phrase "Iranian people" does not have to be, and is not, an ethnic term as Diyako claims: The Dictionary defines Iranian as "Of or relating to Iran or its people, language, or culture." [16] And as Richard Frye puts it: Iranians are defined by their culture and religion, not just languages. [17]

Therefore, this page will not be merged or deleted. The best you can do is put an NPOV tag on the article. Otherwise any attempt to merge/delete will be dealt with as tampering with articles.--Zereshk 23:02, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Dear Zereshk. First those links are not related to the discussion. Second, I see you not only cannot provide a related source to the article but even prevent any consensus between other users discussing the matter. Then I should follow the wikipedias policy more seriously. to see what will happen.

Diyako Talk + 23:17, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes they are revelant, and exactly to the point. Your basis for removing the page was that the term "Iranian people" does not exist. Well it does, as the links prove. C'est ca.--Zereshk 23:35, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

really?!! how those sources define Iranian people? Can I ask u you show me please? Diyako Talk + 23:38, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

OF COURSE IRANIAN PEOPLE ARE AN ETHNICITY! All Iranian peoples (Persians, Azaris, Kurds, Tajiks, etc...)share common physical traits, and countless genetic tests have proven that the majority of the Iranian DNA regardless of what "language" they speak, (ex Kurdish) is the same. This page MUST be kept intact as it is a seperate topic from Iranian langauges!

Before merging or deleting this article, the following articles should be deleted: Germanic peoples, Slavic peoples, and Turkic peoples. Btw: this article is called "Iranian peoples" and not "Iranian people". Tajik 00:38, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Dear Tajik. This is not our problem to delete Germanic people or not. maybe it is a well-cited article (and it is). I wish you carefully read the merging section from beginning. many issues have already been discussed. the problem is not with the term people or peoples, as in Germanic people and Germanic peoples both are refereing to the same thing. the problem is what the article claims. we have not been able to find any related source which directly provides info for it. The article looks more like original research than a scientific one. Can you provide a source that exactly and directly supports this the defination of Iranian peoples as in this article?

Diyako Talk + 00:55, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Diyako, Encyclopedia Iranica uses the term "Iranian people", and the dictionary clearly mentions the word "people" in the definition of Iranian. If you dont have eyes to see it, that's too bad. Please stop wasting our time.--Zereshk 01:04, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

I ask you again Diyako

What do you call the people who speak one of the Iranian languages? You can not say they have no name do you? And calling them only Indo European is wrong since they have a closer connection (linguistically) with each other than with rest of the Indo European speakers. The same goes for Germanic people they are Indo European speakers as well but they share a closer connection with each other than they do with the rest of the Indo European speakers which is why they have their own branch.

There is a group of people who speak Iranian (Indo Iranian) languages and they should certainly have a name.

Gol 01:13, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Leave it alone

I see this as another atempt to make life harder for Iranian Wikipedians.

For what is meant by Iranian people, either read this article, look at the picture.

File:Iran peoples.jpg

here

Since the start of Persian Empire, there has been attempts to unite Iranian people e.g. the people of the Iranian plateau, who were the descents of the Indo-Iranian branches of the Aryans, these include all Ethnic minorities in Iran, as well as the Iranian people OUTSIDE Iran, such as Ossetians. These people are connected ethnically, linguistically and culturally. For more information, read up on the Pan-Iranism ideology.

There are enough references already in this article. Unless you are blind or in ignorant, I suggest you leave this article alone. --Kash 00:57, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

The article claims that Iranian people share genetic DNA. This is a proven fact. All you have to do is look at a Persian, Kurd, Azari, etc...and you will see that we share the same blood. Iranians all came from the same Arians tribes, regardless of what language we speak.

I feel that their is some racist motivation behind this proposal to merge these articles!

I see no sources that directly provide info about those iranian people who are defined in the article. the article is totally an original research. some links who are provided discuss other issues, not what is claimed and needed here.

Diyako Talk + 01:07, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

No its not. Sorry Diyako. We dont buy your argument. Not being able to see "Iranian people" on the 15 sources posted here is not a reason. You have to do better than that.--Zereshk 01:13, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

It is quite clear where this whole issue comes from. I suggest to all interested editors to read the discussions on the talk: Kurdish people page. It is directly related to the efforts of Diyako and to a lesser extent other users to deny the existence of Iranian people. In fact, almost all scholarly sources classify Kurds as Iranian people, and this should be included also in the article on Kurds. What some anti-Iranian editors are trying to do is to remove the article on Iranian people in order to avoid referring to it in the article on Kurds. Of course Diyako will now deny this, but I think it will be very clear to anybody who follows the discussion on both pages. Please have a look for yourself if you like. As for this page, already more than necessary evidence has been provided to support its necessity and its content. It can definitely be improved very much, and that's what we should work on. By the way, the term Indo-Iranian is not exactly the same as Iranian. We should not replace one by the other. Shervink 01:11, 25 February 2006 (UTC)shervink

It's just your POV, the same way as this article has been written. I still wonder how those 150 million peoples (if they still exist) have not a well-cited defination.?? or no, maybe they have but does not support what claimed here! Anyway still i ask you provide relevant sources.Diyako Talk + 01:18, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Some groups of Iranian people are: Persians Tajiks Tats Pashtuns Kurds Baluchis Gilanis Mazandaranis Bakhtiaris Lurs Laks Talyshi Zaza Ossetes Parsis Azarbaijani's

All of them share a SIGNIFICANT portion of their genetics and ethnicity. Nothing can change that. All educated and intelligent people know that. Dont let the unfounded opinions,lies and propoganda of some stupid people bother you.

PERSIA4EVER

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Iranian http://www.wordreference.com/definition/Iranian http://education.yahoo.com/reference/encyclopedia/entry/IndoIran;_ylt=AnUThQWCRO4xyJuA7V3W6_BVt8wF

These 3 dictionarys provide evidence that all the groups of people listed as Iranian on this page are indeed IRANIANS...I can post hundreds of similar links the whole world knows that these different groups all share the same genetics and ethnicity (Iranian)

Diyako, yes, that is my POV. I just asked all others to form their own point of view and draw their own conclusions by having a look at the talk:Kurdish people page.

Genrally, something not being easy to define is not a reason for its non-existence. Evidence for such a term being very well used in academia, as well as many of its aspects being studied, known and understood to a great extent, has been provided. If you think we should find a clearer definition that is no reason for deleting. It is a matter of editing. Shervink 01:35, 25 February 2006 (UTC)shervink

Dear shervink, I do not say you are wrong, I just want reliable relevant sources which directly provide info about the article.Diyako Talk + 01:48, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Good, so your point is basically not the existence of the article, but its content. so you agree to edit the article by finding better sources and writing the article accordingly? That is fine. In that case problem is solved. Shervink 01:52, 25 February 2006 (UTC)shervink

The same as wikipedia policy. I'm very tired right now. for long hours i've been sitting and replying many people. I want to leave. tomorrow morning I more clarify the issue. Diyako Talk + 02:07, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to do the same. I wish you a pleasant rest! Shervink 02:09, 25 February 2006 (UTC)shervink

Hi again, Dear Shervink if the article is rewritten and remove the wrong ethnic ties between the distinct ethnic groups who are members of linguistic family of Iranian languages-speakings esp in its intro then I will leave the article for you. Diyako Talk + 11:58, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Being a distinct ethnic group does not mean having no ethnic ties to others. There are no ethnic Persians, Kurds, Baluchs or whatever in a purely genetic sense of the word. Don't you agree? If distinct ethnic group in case of Kurds means the language, culture, and so on, then there should be no problem in discussing the relationships they have with other people with related languages and cultures. The point is not only language and that has been mentioned already. I am, however, also against a racial reasoning when relating Kurds to Iranians, because I think it is simply irrelevant and not the main point here. Kurds do not define themselves in a racial manner, nor do Iranians actually do that. The article is also not about a race, it is about culture, language, and things of this kind. So these should be the focus.

I think concerning the stituation and the way the discussion s going there is no question that the article should stay. Shervink 12:26, 25 February 2006 (UTC)shervink

I agree with parts of your post. but please may I ask u clarify a little more what you mean exactly? in other words can you please suggest here your defination of iranian peoples which goes to the intro. Diyako Talk + 12:35, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

What I said is essentially the same as the first parts of the article, which I find ok. One might say that saying ethno-linguistic could create the impression that we are certain they all are genetically related to the old Iranians. While the relation does exist for most of them, the emphasis might be unnecessary. I do not find it problematic, however, since ethnicity in Wikipedia itself is not only defined as a matter of genes. But I would understand if somebody did. So we might change it to something like The Iranian peoples are the linguistic and cultural descendants of the ancient Iranians, themselves an early branch of the Indo-European peoples. Most of them also share ethnic roots with eachother and with the ancient Iranians. What do you think? Shervink 12:52, 25 February 2006 (UTC)shervink

I still do not agree. It's the same unknown claim which more looks like a political proposition than a scientific hypotheses or proposition. Allthogh the page only deserves redirection but still i can suggest:

Iranian peoples are those people inhabiting southwestern Asia who speak a member of Iranian languages group which is a branch of Indo-European languages family.

But actually all of these still remain original research since the real defination of Iranian peoples is people who live in Iran and this suggestion is only because i want to give an opportunity not a consensus!. and this is because I just want to leave the article for you if you agree with my above suggestion.

Diyako Talk + 13:42, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

It is not a matter of your decision to leave the article for me or anybody else. The article is going to stand anyway. If you like, you can cooperate with others in editing it, and you must be very clear in your argumentation when doing so. Before making any changes to the article you should discuss them here, which is also what I do. The alternative would be an edit war which is something we should not pursue. Iranian people are defined in terms of language and culture. You might like to forget about mentioning the word ethnic altogether. That's fine for me. But then, what makes Kurds, Lurs, etc. ethnic groups? Is it genetic or is it culture? If you remove it here we should also remove it on those pages, don't you think? Then it would look like this: The Iranian peoples are the linguistic and cultural descendants of the ancient Iranians, themselves an early branch of the Indo-European peoples. We would then need to have a revision of the concept of defining Kurds as an ethnic group, however. Would you like to do so?

About the picture above the box: I find it funny that some Kurds have a problem being called Iranian on the page related to Kurdish people, but that they want a Kurd depicted here as an Iranian for the sake of impartiality. I don't mind. Which Kurdish personality would you suggest to be depicted there? Shervink 16:31, 25 February 2006 (UTC)shervink

Hi again, Thank you for your reply and for allowance to me as a non-persian to edit Iranian related articles. Because of continuous accusation by Iranians which remind me the famous words: "Separatist, Arrest her/him" I'm always anxious to touch such articles, and always I fixed typos and links in those articles not important edits. Also I did that edit not for starting an eit war, I would not revert it if you reverted it. Also this is not only me who claims kurds are an ethnic group but THOUSANDS clear, credible and reliable sources prove that Kurds are an ethnic group not our argument. as well as Turks and Arabs and Persians all are ethnic groups. but Iranian peoples are anot an etrhnic group. in the 'ancient' times there were almost homogeneous peoples speaking almost mutuable languges/dialects that have their own name, Ancient Iranian peoples. Those people later were attacked and mixed heavily with other peoples such as Semitics, Turkics, Mongolians and other surviving indigenious people of the region. so that all of them (almost) totally lost their past Homogeneity. New ethnic groups born, so that they are totally distinct from eachother. but those ancient people had influenced their ruling areas and as a result they left after them dozens of languages which today they comprise an accepted 'language group' called iranian languages, here in this article we should clarify this.

Also I'm not sure what you mean by a picture, i did not asked it.

Diyako Talk + 18:02, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Encyclopaedia Iranica and "Iranian people"

A search in the Encyclopaedia Iranica about the word Iranian people brings up several pages. The first one is an article on the roots of the word Arya (pp. 681-683) under the entry Arya. On page 682, after discussing the roots of the word Arya, it says : No decision has yet been reached regarding the earlier meaning of the Iranian and Indian words. No evidence for such an Indo-European ethnic name has been found.

The other articles that contain Iranian people in this Encyclopaedia are articles related to Buddhism [18], [19], [20] and [21]. But the term Iranian people just appears in the title of those articles, and the author does not specify what he/she means by the term. So Encyclopaedia Iranica does not support the claims in this article. I suggest a merge with Iranian Demographics or Iranian languages, and removing all ethnic references. Heja Helweda 02:30, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

What would you name the group of people who speak languages of the Iranian branch? Surely they have a name don’t they? If you merge this with Iranian languages what term would we have to define people who speak those languages?

Gol 07:40, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Heja misquotes E.I. (psst..it's called lying)

1. Firstly, the very fact that E.I. decides to use the term "Iranian people" in its title 5 times is enough by itself to discredit your claims.
2. You didnt read E.I. carefully. It doesnt say evidence for the word Aryan does not exist. It says evidence of the "earlier meaning" and "IndoEuropean meaning" does not exist. Youre quoting out of context. On the contrary, the start of the same paragraph reads "these facts are undisputed". Which facts?....the facts above it about the name Aryan and its usage.
3. The very first sentence when defining "Arya" on p681 says: "Arya: An ethnic epithet". Paragraph 4 starts: "The same ethnic concept was later used..."
4. Even (and that's a far cry) if you were to prove that it is not an ethnic term, so what? The article says "cultural" and "linguistic" traits define the Iranian people. You cant ignore the cultural traits in favor of the linguistic ones. That's POV. Because Frye argues exactly against that.
5. And even if that's not enough, Heja, Diyako, and Aucaman are outnumbered. Wikipedia's policy specifically mention "consensus" as a yardstick in disputes.

Look. Im sorry. But you just cant erase something like "Iranian people". It's too well established to expunge.--Zereshk 05:14, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Let's cool down

Please need to cool down here and don't let their emotions control their reasoning and behaviour. I think we need to start cleaning up the article and focus on finding sources. I'll try to go through the references already provided and determine their relevance and validity. Aucaman^Talk 03:07, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

User Gol asked, There is a group of people who speak Iranian (Indo Iranian) languages and they should certainly have a name. It is the impotrant question. i won't suggest any term (because of your (not user Gol) childish accusations). this is your job.

Diyako Talk + 09:59, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Iranian peoples

http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/pages/I/R/Iranianpeoples.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by ManiF (talk • contribs)

Thank you for your help.

The east Aryan group of peoples of the Indo-European family that today inhabit Iran, Soviet Central Asia and Transcaucasia, Afghanistan, and parts of Pakistan, Turkey, and Iraq. In ancient times they also inhabited southeastern Europe.

It almost claims the same definition which i had suggsted except use of the word of Aryan that currently there is a dipute ongoing for this word by some other user.

Diyako Talk + 14:59, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

"east Aryan group"? If Iranians are "East Aryans", then who are "West Aryans"? Can someone explain this to me? Also note that "East Aryan" forms a compound name so that the word "East" has to be capitalized. I don't know if I can trust a source that is grammatically incorrect. Aucaman^Talk 17:18, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

As I understand it, its from the Aryan invasion theory.. Indo referring to Indo-Iranian (which may be called East Aryan) and European (e.g. Scandinavians). --Kash 20:36, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Encyclopaedia Britannica

I suggest to remove ethnic terms from this article. According to Encyclopaedia Britannica, [22]: Since early times the region(Kurdistan) has been the home of the Kurds, a people whose ethnic origins are uncertain . It does not talk about their inclusion in Iranian peoples or any other group.Heja Helweda 20:11, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Please read about genetic studies mentioned already above on this page. --Kash 20:36, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

I have been following this discussion for quite a while. There are sources which link Kurds to the Jews, and other sources linking them to Iranians. In any case, there is no consensus in the academic circles about their ethnic origin.Heja Helweda 21:22, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

You cannot have a double standard. If the ethnic origins of Kurds are unclear (and as you pointed out they can be linked to several groups), then the reason for the grouping called Kurdish is linguistic and cultural. The same goes for Iranian. If those are enough reasons to include the term ethnic in the Kurdish people article, they should also be included in the Iranian peoples article. Shervink 02:49, 26 February 2006 (UTC)shervink

Kurds have uncertain racial origins, they have also uncertain ethnic origins and you should not confuss these two issues; so that in a certain way we only can classify them with Iranians by their language, it requires that we drop ethnic ties between this totally heterogeneous ethnic groups in this large linguistic group. because we are 1500 years late, Note that we are not discussing ancient Iranians people.

Diyako Talk + 14:18, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Diyako, it seems we are going in circles, and I think the reason might be that the way certain terms are used here are a bit sloppy. could you please more or less define the meaning of the terms ethnic, racial, cultural, and linguistic? I see that some of these are being used interchangably by some editors while being seen in a more precise manner by others. I think people cannot reach agreement over something when they have different meanings in mind when talking about it. Also, based on those definitions you might like to point out in which of these ways (ethnic, racial, cultural, or linguistic) Kurds or Iranians can be grouped (ethnic groups, cultural groups, whatever), and in which manners the two groups (Kurds and Iranians) are related (is the relation linguistic or cultural or ethnic ... and why). This would make your points of view clear in a very precise manner. We would then have the opportunity to see where exactly our differences lie. Thanks. Shervink 16:25, 26 February 2006 (UTC)shervink

It is clear, The relation of Kurds with other Iranians is only linguistic; this is also true about most of other groups. they are all dinstinct, independent and different ethnic groups, they all have their own language and culture. this is only their language which goes under a classification; a language group, which they are members of that classification.

Diyako Talk + 18:23, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, thank you, but you just repeated what you had already said before. I was hoping for a clearer, more detailed answer. In particular, you give no clear definition of the term ethnic. Some editors here seem to equate it with racial, for some others it is a mixture of racial, linguistic, and cultural matters. For you, it seems, it is culture plus language, thus no mention of race. I am not questioning any of these at this point, but I think as long as we do not have the same definition of what ethnicity is, we cannot agree on its instances in the real world, as applied to groups of human beings. Please define what - in your opinion - ethnicity is, and thus what makes a group of people an ethnic group. Lay out then, how this applies to Kurds, and how it - again in your opinion, according to your previous definition - does not apply to Iranians as a whole, or to the relation of Kurds with other Iranian people. The only way to get out of this stalemate is to have a clear, to the point discussion. Please share your views with us, and be precise (even lengthy, if necessary!).Shervink 18:43, 26 February 2006 (UTC)shervink

By every defination of that words the only tie between Kurds and other speakers of iranian languages is linguistic. Kurds are different from those people by their every thing, but there is only a langauge classification which Kurdish is a member of it.Diyako Talk + 18:55, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, thank you for not participating in discussion by avoiding my question. If you have lost interest in this, I don't mind. But I see no need to keep the content warning on the page if those who have risen their concerns avoid discussing them here. Shervink 19:07, 26 February 2006 (UTC)shervink

I have participated from begining, and one of the persons who realized this wrong definition in this article was me. I have the right to not allow change the disscussion. What is the ties between speakers of iranian languages? Their language, not anything alse at least in the case of the Kurds. (Although may there are other groups who their situation is as Kurds and still not discussed but) if you clarify in the article that the relationship between kurds and other members of this linguistic group (not among all of them, ONLY kurds) is only linguistic, then no problem otherwise there will be a dispute on the article til our other Turkish and non-Persian friends will find this interesting discussion and will discuss and solve the problem.

Diyako Talk + 19:59, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, then let me give you a few hints so you can think about this a bit more. You said that the relationship between Kurds and other Iranians is purely linguistic. Don't Kurds celebrate Norooz? or a lot of other cultural traditions of other Iranians? I am sure you know about haft-sin for example? Are these things related to language? Or are these things which people in Tajikistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, and parts of Turkey, including Kurds, Azeris, ... have in common? These are obviously not linguistic ties. The article on Kurdish people even (wrongly) is claiming that Norooz is a Kurdish festival. It is, as we know of course, something Kurds have in common with other Iranians. What I'm saying is that there is much more that these people have in common than only language. There numerous examples for this. What you might say is that we don't know whether there is also a racial relation. That's true, there seems to be no consensus about it. But race is not included as the definition of Iranian people here, so that should not be a problem. Shervink 20:35, 26 February 2006 (UTC)shervink

Well, I've not prevented you to discuss cultural issues or other relations in the article. You can discuss it in the article in its section as much as you can find stuff for it. but actually the definition is the way which I suggested before. Also the issue of Kurdish new year as fars as I know is because of the article is about Kurdish people and not Iranian peoples which you can discuss it there and we will cite our credible sources for that, wether you will agree with us or we with you it is another matter. You for exemple in this article can have numerous sections and discuss every thing but defintion is another issue. it must be free from any unclear words and aother accepted and clear issue goes there. => Look at Germanic peoples. Diyako Talk + 20:57, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

And I'll fix it now, and towmorrow will improve the article. really right now I'm very busy. See you later.Diyako Talk + 21:49, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, Germanic people and Iranian people are two different groups. you cannot say we do this thing here because somebody did that thing there!!! Also, since there are numerous cultural elements all Iranian people have in common, obviously a good definition of them must include those as well. Your way of discussion is not serious, and you don't show the maturity needed to have an intelligent discussion on such a complicated topic. Moreover, your way of writing is very hasty, and full of gramatical and typographical errors. Please pay more attention to the quality of what you write. As long as you don't come up with better arguments and spend some time thinking rather than writing your false assumptions over and over again, I consider it a waste of my time and a waste of server space to continue discussing with you here. My dear friend, grow up please! Shervink 21:59, 26 February 2006 (UTC)shervink

The article on Germanic peoples is a good one to look at and compare to. This article should try to correspond more to it as well as the Slavic peoples article. Obviously, the IRanian peoples vary as do the Germanic peoples and Slavs since they split off over the centuries and have lived in various regions, although for the most in close geographic proximity. It should be noted thus that for example, the Czechs have many closer cultural ties to Germans than to the Russians even though both are 'Slavs'. This article shouldn't become too orthodox and promote a pan-Iranic perspective either, but simply explain the appellation and its usage. Tombseye 23:47, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Inquary

Who are we talking about? Ancient Iranian people or the ones living in Iran or something else? --Cool Cat^Talk|@ 23:27, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Iranian people as in the same grouping as Germanic people or Slavic people. It is not just the Persians and others of Iran that this article is referring to or the ancient populations. Tombseye 23:44, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

History of Mixing of Persians and Arabs

1. In 651-671, Ziad settled a permanant garrison of 50,000 Arabs of Tamim and Bakr from Basrah and Kufa at Merv, which became the main center for defense and expansion on the north-eastern frontier (in Khorasan) Encyclopaedia Iranica, p.208, under Arab Conquest of Iran.
2. Whereas Arab settlement in western and southren Iran tended to be relatively small, the colonization of eastern Iran (Khorasan) was both extensive and systematic. Tribesmen of Bakr bin Wael were established in Qohestan and garrisons of troops were certainly quartered at Nishapur and Merv.This policy can be explained in part as an effort to relieve the surplus population pressures in the Iraqi camp cities (Encyclopaedia Iranica, p.213).
3. In 730 CE, Jonayd bin Abd-al-Rahman sent 20,000 Arabs (half from Basrah and half from Kufa) to Khorasan. At the time of Qotayba bin Moslem governorship (early 8th century), there were 40,000 Basran, 7,000 Kufan troops in Khorasan, the Arabs coming from the tribes of Bakr, Tamim, Abd-al-Qays and Azd.
4. Because of the distance from Iraq and the attractiveness of the country, large numbers of these soldiers acquired lands in villages throughout Khorasan, married local women or brought their families from Iraq, and settled permanently in the province. This implies that the Arab population in Khorasan must have been huge in comparison to that in western Iran. Even if the primary component of the Arab colony in Khorasan was limited to just the 50,000 families settled there by Rabi bin Ziad, the total Arab population would have to be estimated at close to a quarter of a million people.(Encyclopaedia Iranica, under Arab settlements in Iran,p.213).
5. Because of the common danger on the Khorasani frontie, Iranians and Arabs overcame their initial antipathy and cooperated extensivle in military operations. In addition to military garrisons, the Arabs included merchants, artisans, religious scholars, landlords, peasants, beggards, vagabonds and badits. It was natural that in time these groups blended in with their Khorasani counterparts. These speacial circumstances in Khorasan, which integrated Arabs and Iranians into a common social fabric, facilitated the assimilation of Iranian culture by the Arabs and the gradual acceptance of much of Arab culture(above all the religion), by their Iranian subjects and peers..(Encyclopaedia Iranica, under Arab settlements in Iran,p.214). Heja Helweda 00:16, 27 February 2006 (UTC)