Talk:Homophobia/Archive 6

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Fear of being identified as a homosexual

This section is completely messed up, there is some sort of code in it.

Quotations

I've gone ahead and reworked a couple of instances where just about the entire body of text consisted of quotations (quotations by somewhat obscure figures as well, as far as I can tell, which is besides the point, really). Namely:

According to theorists including Calvin Thomas (2000), quoted here, and Judith Butler, "The terror of being mistaken for a queer dominates the straight mind because this terror constitutes the straight mind. It is precisely that culturally produced and reinforced horror of/fascination with abjected homosexuality that produces and maintains 'the straight mind' as such, governing not so much specific sexual practices between men and women (after all, these things happen) as the institution (arguably antisexual) of heteronormativity itself." He continues, "Homophobia entails not only the fear of those who are abjectly identified (and depended on) but also the fear of being abjectly identifiable onself: the fear, as the word most literally means, of being 'the same as'. This latter fear is arguably a much stronger component of homophobia than of, say, sexism or racism (despite the mechanisms of projection and abjection doubtless at work in those forms of hatred), because the sexist male or the racist white is in much less 'danger' of being 'mistaken' for a woman or a nonwhite than the straight is of being 'mistaken' for a queer".

(previously in Fear of being mistaken for a homosexual)

and

Extremist far-right conservative and religious groups use anti-gay bias to further their political goals. Anti-gay bias leads everyone compromise their morals and treat others badly. Anti-gay bias causes everyone to avoid or have trouble forming close relationships with friends of the same sex. Everyone's behaviour is restricted to rigid gender-roles or punished for variance by anti-gay bias. Even if people are in actuality straight, they may be silenced or ridiculed into not fulfilling their potential by avoided the creative fulliling but stigmatized activity. Anti-gay bias causes young people to engage in sexual behaviour earlier in order to prove that they are straight. Anti-gay bias contributed significantly to the spread of the AIDS epidemic. Anti-gay bias inhibits the ability of schools to create effective honest sexual education programs that would save children's lives and prevent STDs3.

(previously in Opposition to homophobia)

In both occasions, the points are made entirely by those to whom the quotes are atributed to. Though quoting is a useful means of exemplifying and backing up certain points, to explain entire concepts through them isn't really what we should aim for when trying to establish an Wiki article. Also, there's not really anything that particularly distinguishes the individuals quoted as authorities, in that they don't seem to be particularly relevant as to their knowledge on the matters discussed. So, I've rewritten them for the most part, though still including references to these theorists, and I'm reproducing them here in case anyone has a) something against this or b) an interest in taking these and trying to better include them in the text; not as absolute sources, but potentially as ilustrations of the points made. Anyway, yes, that was it. Will also try and see if I can help some more as to other parts of the article. Zeppocity 22:54, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

OH!, right, just remembered: maybe including the specific pieces of legislation as to homophobia wouldn't be a bad idea either...? Oopsy, Z. again!

9/5/05 - Why is the page title "homophobia", when it describes something much different? Homophobia is a fear of gays, not a dislike of them. There needs to be a different label for this page. Posted by User:205.188.117.69

Please pick up a dictionary. Exploding Boy 17:43, September 6, 2005 (UTC)

I know a guy who was bum holed as a kid and he totaly fears gay people.Mabey sum mention of sexual abuse as a cause for homophobia?

So does that make women who have been sexually abused "heterophobic"? I doubt it. And next time, sign your comments, IP. -- AlexR 04:07, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

A gay woman sexually abused by a hetero man may fear strait guys. So yeah, that would make her heterophobic,good thinkin son.

moralityphobia

I have seen the term moralityphobia used in various places, and so I figured I would write an article on it. I believe it is as POV as the homophobe article.MPS 16:53, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

You linked to deviance and sodomy as see also links.. classy. If you have specific criticisms of this article, please discuss them here. Otherwise please don't make articles for neologisms in order to prove a point. Rhobite 17:22, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

as it turned out, the effort was unnecessary; heterophobia already exists as an article. Homophobe is on the List of political epithets so I am going to return the category label Category:Pejorative political terms to Homophobia. I am not trying to lose street cred here; homophobia is, in the most NPOV sense, a pejorative term and an intensely political term. Nobody calls themself a homophobe; it is a label foisted upon people by others who who don't like what they think or say. MPS 20:50, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Not until we discuss it. I'm removing that category until we can reach some kind of consensus here. Exploding Boy 20:28, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Category:Pejorative political terms

Ok. Topic starter... Homophobe is a pejorative, political phrase and should be given the Category:Pejorative political terms. True/False and why.MPS 21:00, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

True. Homophobia is, in the most NPOV sense, a pejorative term and an intensely political term. Nobody calls themself a homophobe; it is a label foisted upon people by others who who don't like what they think or say. Some agree with me [1] but some dislike what we have to say, and so consider me and others like me to be merely expressing our homophobicness. I also think that we should add the category Category:Pejorative_terms_for_people MPS 20:50, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm against including the category; it's rarely used in a political context, and it doesn't really have a hidden meaning. It's true that some people insist on interpreting the word literally as "afraid of gays" but that isn't the generally accepted or correct definition. People tend not to self-apply negative labels such as "homophobic", "bigoted", "anti-semitic", etc. That doesn't make them into political terms. Rhobite 21:20, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree. Calling something what it is is not pejorative. Exploding Boy 21:55, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes and no. I see how it can be perjorative, but in the same sense that terms like racist and sexist are. Tom 17:03, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

controversial term

I used the phraseology is an extremely controversial term used in many English-speaking countries. because there are many who reject this label. The website religioustolerance.org, arguable a left-leaning POV source, acknowledges that conservative Christians deeply resent being called homophobes. The many many attempts by others to attach a NPOV label to this article, and the fact that this word is on the List of political epithets attest to the fact that many people think that diagnoses of homophobia may not all be seen as entirely innocuous and academic. To some degree, calling somone a homophobe for their political opinions has the feel of calling somone an Arab-hater or a Jew hater based on their stance towards or against Israel. In the same way, democrats have been called America haters for opposing the Iraq war even though most of them love American democracy. I have changed the opening to is a somewhat controversial term based on Rhobite's objection to extremely MPS 22:19, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, but it's not a "somewhat controversial" term either. The fact that some people don't like being called homophobes doesn't make it controversial. For example, we don't say racism is a controversial term because some racists don't like being called such, or because they deny that their views or pronoucements are racist.

Homophobia is not a "diagnosis," as you probably well know. Stop trying to muddy the waters. Calling someone a homophobe who exhibits homophobia is not controversial.

And please stop reinstering such statements. You are thus far the only user who supports the claims you are making. Until some kind of consensus is reached, leave them out. Exploding Boy 22:23, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Again, there seems to be a misunderstanding of what "controversial" means. It is only that minority of people who object to the validation of homosexual expression who also object to being labeled homophobes, and retort that they are simply being reasonable and aduce various arguments to substantiate that claim. As Exploding Boy correctly pointed out, the same claim could be made by racists, who used to "justify" their position by waving the Bible, with all its many pro-slavery passages. The fact that there may be a controversy going on does not make the term controversial. There is a controversy over evolution too, but no follower of reason (vs. dogma) will ever accept that evolution per se is controversial. Haiduc 22:49, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Haiduc is absolutely correct. It is true that homophobes dislike being identified as homophobes, but homophobes ARE homophobes. It is also true that most racists dislike being identified as racists.--71.192.239.26 18:48, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

"Calling someone a homophobe who exhibits homophobia is not controversial." This statement sounds to me as absurd as this one "Calling someone a nigger who exhibits nigger-like traits is not controversial." Prove to me that a majority of people celebrate to the validation of homosexual expression. Last I checked 48% is not a majority

When asked if homosexual relations between consenting adults should be legal or not legal, a slight plurality of adults (48%) said such relationships should be legal, while 42% said they should not be legal. One out of every ten adults did not have an opinion on the matter. [2]

Also, the ratio differs tremendously among countries. In the US, it's politically correct to be pro-gay, even more so in Netherlands, but on the other hand, in Poland the general public tends to view gay activists with contempt. You can't homogenize the statistic over cultural boundaries. 83.11.31.222 09:13, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

You can't argue with Barna MPS 22:56, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Why I'm even responding to that last post I'm not sure. Such a ridiculous argument can only have been posted to stir up shit. The words "nigger" and "homophobe" are hardly equivalent. One is a disgusting racial epithet the history and significance of which does not need recounting here. The second is a term that describes an attitude or way of thinking. Additionally, whatever source you've quoted is meaningless, since I presume it covers only America, which does not equal the world. Exploding Boy 02:16, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

The fact remains that homophobe is an epithet [3] a word used to characterize a group of people. IT is controversial [4]. I agree that it is not as disgusting an epithet as as the N-word but it is disgusting (or shall I say resentment-inducing) to people labeled with it. Even the words Liberal and right wing are controversial even if they aptly describe a group of people. MPS 17:40, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Added--even if it did, your claim that "homophobia" is a controversial term would still be baseless. Exploding Boy 02:17, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Barna is also a Christian research group, so they're not exactly unbiased here. Rhobite 02:18, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Pew research center [5] "Americans are divided – a thin majority (51%) believes homosexuality should be accepted, while 42% disagree."

University of Michigan Institute for Social Research (ISR)[ http://www.umich.edu/news/Releases/2003/Feb03/r022503.html] "For example, 53 percent of those surveyed in Western nations express some degree of tolerance for homosexuality, compared to just 12 percent of those surveyed in Islamic societies"

"Hate speech is a controversial term" wikipedia article

"Neoconservatism is a somewhat controversial term" wikipedia article

"Nigger is an extremely controversial term"" wikipedia article

""Smooth jazz" is a controversial term." wikipedia article

"Failed state is a controversial term " wikipedia article

"Since the last quarter of the 20th century, there have been few in developed nations who describe themselves as racist, so that identification of a group or person as racist is nearly always controversial." wikipedia article "racist"

There is significant NPOV evidence to demonstrate that (a) only about half of US citizens tolerate homosexuality and (b) Wikipedia has a significant precedent for identifying things as 'controversial terms' simply because there is some form of controversy around their usage. I have shown that Conservative Christians especially bristle at being called homophobes, as well as showing that wikipedia editors have come to a consensus that "identification of a group or person as racist is nearly always controversial" which directly contradicts Exploding Boy's example that identifying racists as racists is not controversial" quod erat demonstrandum. I will add "controversial back in unless anyone has anything else to say. MPS 15:33, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

>only about half of US citizens tolerate homosexuality

Doesn't speak well for the Americans at all. Anyway, the Wikipedia is not an American project, I am sure that the worldwide figures would be quite different. Haiduc 15:50, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Here's some worldwide stats on whether people think homosexuality "should be accepted by society" [6] "Globally, agreement with the idea that homosexuality should be "accepted by society" varies wildly. The 2002 Pew Global Attitudes Project reported the following results:

Country	Support	Oppose
North America
United States	69%	26%
Canada	69%	26%
Mexico	54%	39%
Guatemala	44%	50%
Honduras	41%	55%
Europe
Germany	83%	15%
France	77%	21%
United Kingdom	74%	22%
Italy	72%	20%
Czech Republic	83%	16%
Slovak Republic	68%	30%
Poland	40%	48%
Bulgaria	37%	36%
Russia	22%	60%
Ukraine	17%	77%
Middle East
Turkey	22%	66%
Lebanon	21%	76%
Jordan	12%	88%
Uzbekistan	10%	66%
Pakistan	9%	56%
South America
Argentina	66%	26%
Boliva	55%	40%
Brazil	54%	42%
Venezuela	46%	51%
Peru	45%	49%
Asia
Philippines	64%	33%
Japan	54%	34%
South Korea	25%	69%
Vietnam	13%	84%
India	7%	63%
Bangladesh	7%	87%
Indonesia	5%	93%
Africa
South Africa	33%	63%
Angola	30%	62%
Cote d'Ivoire	15%	84%
Uganda	4%	95%
Nigeria	4%	95%
Ghana	4%	93%
Mali	3%	96%
Senegal	2%	98%
Kenya	1%	99%

Individual religious sects vary widely in their views on sexual orientation, from acceptance of people of all orientations, to advocating of the death penalty for homosexual and heterosexual people who violate certain other norms." Gosh, not everyone agrees. Can you spell C-O-N-T-R-O-V-E-R-S-Y? MPS 16:11, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Still doesn't make the term "homophobia" controversial. Exploding Boy 17:04, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Sez you.I have lived up to my burden of proof. What is your NPOV standard of "controversial term" are you using, where you allow for smooth jazz being a controversial term but not the term homophobia? MPS 17:18, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

You haven't proven anything. Your logical argument, if I can sum it up, sounds like this: 1. Many people around the world believe that homosexuality is wrong. 2. Other Wikipedia articles claim that terms are "controversial". Conclusion: The term "homophobia" is controversial.

Obviously your two premises do not support your conclusion. Neither of your premises addresses the term "homophobia". For every case you listed, I can explain the controversy behind the term. For example, people disagree over whether it's appropriate for blacks to address each other as "nigger". That's a controversy. I can't explain the controversy over "homophobia" because the term is not controversial - there is no prominent debate about whether it's an appropriate term. Rhobite 17:33, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Here's my argument: P1: Opponents to homosexual acts are not a "vast minority" and are in many cases in the majority of a country's attitude about homosexuals or about sodomy activity. P2: Proponents of homosexual tolerance often use the word "homophobe" to describe these opponents P3:People who are described as homophobes react very very negatively to this characterization of them and then people argue back and forth about whether this labeling of them was appropriate; in other words this label is offensive to the people labeled and usually starts an argument or controversy. P4: Wikipedia lists many other terms as "controversial terms" that are controversial because people disagree with their proper usage. P5: The term "racist" when applied even to racists, is controversial.

Do you disagree with any of these premises? If not, continue...

C1: P1 + P3 --> there are a lot of people who disagree with homosexual acts and who take offense at being described as homophobes

C2: P2 --> there are a lot of people who, regardless of C1, continue to use the word homophobe.

C3: P4 + P5 --> wikipedia's own standards suggest that labels such as "racist" and "homophobe" can be considered "controversial terms" because there is significant disagreement as to the meaning and applicability of these terms EVEN IF THE TERM IS IN FACT WELL KNOWN AND APPLICABLE.

Now let me describe your argument: "the term 'homophobia' is not controversial because it correctly describes people who are homophobic." This tells me that you are assuming that there is a worldwide community consensus about the meaning and applicability of the term. It is precisely this meaning and applicability that are the source of controversy.

Short version = many people think the word homophobia is an offensive epithet, many others think it is a a useful noun, there is no universally shared opinion on this matter, leading to arguments and debates between different opinions about its meaning and applicability==> it is a controversial termMPS 18:19, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

MPS, you are a skilfull debater but debates can also be vehicles for making a point rather than establishing the truth. The one thing I can agree to is to have a formulation that asserts that "homophobia" is a term that in the eyes of some, particularly an indeterminate proportion of those who persist in opposing the normalization of homosexuality in those societies that problematize it for whatever various reasons, has been used in ways that they consider controversial because it refers to their own attitudes and unvalidates their own position. Deal? Haiduc 10:42, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

re:truth "But human beings disagree about specific cases; for any topic on which there are competing views, each view represents a different idea of what the truth is, and insofar as that view contradicts other views, its adherents believe that the other views are false and therefore not knowledge. Where there is disagreement about what is true, there's disagreement about what constitutes knowledge. " Wikipedia NPOV policy No deal. You are asking me to say, "the only people who disagree with this term are self-righteous bigots," which is not an NPOV characterization of that side of the argument. MPS 14:03, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Random page break for ease of reading

You are clearly having difficulty with certain of the terms you are basing your arguments upon.

To begin with, "homophobia" means "irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals."

An "epithet" is a term that is disparaging or abusive.

A "pejorative" is something that has negative connotations; especially, tending to disparage or belittle.

"Homophobia" is neither an epithet nor a pejorative. Nor is it controversial. The only people who object to the term are those who refuse to accept its definition; this is not acceptable in an academic environment like an encyclopaedia.

Characterising someone who opposes homosexuality as homophobic is not an epithet; it's not pejorative; it's not controversial. It is an accurate description. As with slander, truth is an absolute defence. Exploding Boy 03:05, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

"The only people who object to the term are those who refuse to accept its definition" Reread this sentence about 4 times and you will realize it is meaningless. Of course people who refuse to accept its definition will object to the term. That's what it means to disagree about a definition. I will agree with your statement if you will agree to this statement: "The only people who accept the term are the people who agree with its definition. Different people disagree about whether term homophobia is acceptable/useful/applicable, which is precisely why it is controversial. I think if you look at the definition of failed state, you will realize that it is controversial precisely because Side A wants to call something a failed state, and Side B thinks this is a loaded term and that Side A is only claiming that it's a "failed state" for political purposes. I have shown that this is the case with homophobia as well. I have provided many links above to people who consider it an epithet and who consider it pejorative. Show me some sources of people claiming "it is a unbiased term". You don't consider it negative or offensive, but I have shown that many other people do. MPS 13:52, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm quickly growing tired of this discussion because it's going nowhere. I suggest you pick up a dictionary and look up the word "homophobia." It exists, it has an accepted definition, and those who "don't believe in it" are free not to, but they cannot alter the meaning of a word, and they cannot claim it is a controversial word because they don't agree with its definition.

To parallel your analogy above, a totalitarian state my not like being called a totalitarian state; many totalitarian states call themselves "democratic." But if it is a political regime that exerts total control over its citizens lives and the nation's production, especially by force, then it is a totalitarian regime.

In other words, as I've said before, if a term is one that accurately describes at type of thing or person, then its use is not controversial. If the shoe fits...

To parallel your ridiculous example from further up, calling someone "Chinese" is not controversial if they are in fact Chinese. Calling them a "chink," on the other hand, will always be controversial because, rather than being an accurate description it is a racial epithet. MPS 16:31, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Similarly, calling someone who opposes homosexuality a homophobe is not controversial, whereas calling them a fascist would be. Exploding Boy 15:37, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

You have again reverted my quality, NPOV edits and called them sneaky in the edit line. You have again avoided my request that you provide a POV besides your own. I'm going to the village pump to see if anyone has any NPOV opinions. MPS 16:12, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Also, calling someone Chinese when they live in Taiwan may be controversial. See? Different people have different views on whether labels apply. My edits no longer say, "homophobe is a controversial phrase" they say "people opposed to the label think it is an epithet" This is their opinion and it is well documented here. I would like someone to revert your revert so that I don't violate any rules. MPS 16:37, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

As for the first part of your response: good. I've listed it on the LGBT notice board too.

As for the second, you are now just nitpicking while ignoring my objections.

Exploding Boy 20:27, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Your objection: if a term is one that accurately describes at type of thing or person, then its use is not controversial. If you tell me I'm afraid of mice and I think I'm not, then I may think your assessment of me is controversial even if science can prove to everyone that I am afraid of mice. What is wikipedia's definition of controversial? If I take out the word controversial and say "some people think 'homophobia' is a loaded term ... will this make you happy?. btw I think the Taiwan-China dispute is relevant and not nitpicking. MPS 21:09, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

summary of what we are arguing over now

here's the diff link]

MPS's version

Many opponents of homosexual acts feel that the terms homophobic and homophobia are controversial terms because this accusation is often offensive to people who think they have rational or moral reasons for opposing homosexuality. Others disagree with the use of the root -phobia use because the the phenomenon described is generally not so much a fear of but an aversion to homosexual acts. Pro-gay supporters, on the other hand, argue that aversion to homosexuals transcends mere intellectual terms and thereforean aversion to homosexuals should validly be seen as sheer prejudice and unjustified aversion.

versus

Exploding Boy's 's version

As to the validity of the term, it is sometimes argued that the term suggests an irrational, instinctual fear, as other phobias would, which they feel mischaracterizes "homophobes"' opposition to homosexuality in that it is often based on religious beliefs and/or reasoning as to the nature of sexual relationships. Gay-rights supporters, on the other hand, argue that homophobia does not stem from mere intellectual terms and thereforean aversion to homosexuality should validly be seen as sheer prejudice and unjustified aversion.

MPS 19:23, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

The new version would be fine, with the following changes:

Many of those who view homosexuality as characterized purely by sexual acts feel that the terms homophobic and homophobia are offensive. These people often think they have religious, rational, or moral reasons for opposing homosexuality. Others disagree with the root '-phobia' because they believe the phenomenon described is generally not so much a fear of homosexual people, but an aversion to homosexual acts, though this distinction may be moot, since phobias can manifest as aversions, and even as a fear of or aversion toward acts. Gay rights supporters, on the other hand, argue that aversion to homosexuals transcends mere intellectual terms and thereforean aversion to homosexuals should validly be seen as sheer prejudice and unjustified aversion or fear.

Here's my reasoning: the first version characterizes homosexuality as a set of acts, which is a particular POV. Noting that people characterize homosexuality as a set of acts, and how they view homophobia, however, helps to avoid this POV. This distinction is further clarified in the "Others disagree with the root '-phobia'" sentence. Finally, gay rights supporters are gay rights supporters, whether a person agrees with the concept of gay rights or not. Using their term for themselves does not contstitute a POV. -Seth Mahoney 20:56, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

LGBT?

This article is riddled with references to "LGBT people", which I assume means Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transsexual?

I have removed these references, as they are unencyclopedic. This acronym is certainly not in general usage in the heterosexual and asexual community, and I am not entirely certain of it's usage in the homosexual community. It simply makes the article look (more?) biased towards a homosexual reader.

Anyway, it's just lazy to put LGBT instead of lesbians, gays, bisexuals and transsexuals. Trip: The Light Fantastic 13:15, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

It's a very widespread and extremely useful abbreviation. I have defined it in the first paragraph for the benefit of anyone who may not have encountered it before. --Angr/_{tɔk tə mi} 13:24, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

You cannot simply replace "LGBT" with "homosexual" because not everyone who is LGBT is homosexual. Bisexuals are not homosexual, and the transgendered can be of any sexual orientation. --Angr/_{tɔk tə mi} 13:27, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

But the point of this article (Homo-phobia) is to discuss the word that uses "homosexual" as it's root. Logically, the discussion of sexuality persecution against "the transgendered" would require a seperate term. The term "homophobia" can only be applied to discussions of reactions against homosexual behavior (or perceived homosexual behavior), regardless of whether that behavior is engaged in by a person identifying themselves as "bisexual", "transgendered" or whatever). This is just another example of why the word "homophobia" itself is not very useful in discussing the social problems centered around sexual orientation. - Libertas 16 October 2005 (02:30 UTC)

Libertas is incorrect. Heterosexual bias against both bisexuals and trans-gender folk is ultimately rooted in homophobia.--71.192.239.26 18:56, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

It's true the term biphobia exists and is distinct from "homophobia". There is probably also a distinct kind of "trans-phobia", though I don't know what it's called. Nevertheless I think bis and transsexuals can be the targets of homophobia by people who don't know or don't care what the difference is. --Angr/_{tɔk tə mi} 06:31, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

There are articles on both biphobia and transphobia. Since bisexual people are attracted to both the same sex and the opposite sex, many aspects of homophobia and heterophobia apply to them. Guanaco 19:43, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Heterophobia does not exist. Biphobia results from an ideological aversion among some gays and lesbians to the notion of fluidity within the complicated process of sexual identity construction.--71.192.239.26 18:56, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

To what extent are the terms heterophoiba, biphobia et al. really used? I agree that the term LGBT is unencyclopedic, because I find it to be simulatenously overly simplistic and too specific. By expanding upon the term homosexual by specifically referencing Lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgendered people it suggests that these are the only non-heterosexual sexual orientations that exist and also inconsistently uses terms that reference both sexual orientation and biological sex alongside terms that only reference sexual orientation. Further, it references specific groups unnecessarily because the relevant fact is that the groups are all non-heterosexual. Granted, non=heterosexual suggests that heterosexuality is the norm and is thus inherently POV, but there is no other term that usefully describes what non-heterosexual means in a non-negative manner other than perhaps genderqueer. That said, I do think LGBT is a relatively common term, although it's possible that it's a regionalism and as such might be considered to be replaced on those grounds. Theshibboleth 10:27, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Definition of bisexual

It was said above that bisexuals are not homosexual. But if I understand generaly English usage, bisexual means engaging in both heterosexual and homosexual erotic acts, e.g, a guy who has sex with girls and guys.

Is there an "identity" issue involved here? Uncle Ed 02:27, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

I hesitate to even bother responding here, but the statement "bisexual = homosexual" is as false as "bisexual = heterosexual". We don't even need to discuss issues of identity (though if you like, we can bring them into the mix as well). -Seth Mahoney 03:22, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Engaging in homosexual behavior is not the same thing as considering one's self homosexual. See Men who have sex with men, for example. --Angr/_{tɔk tə mi} 07:40, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Speaking as a bisexual person, I think a lot of bisexuals do identify as homosexual, not straight or "..and straight". It's more of a cultural thing, not only to do with the "identity" of gay men/women but also because (at least in North America) society often tries to polarize these identities, so someone could hardly escape a gay-bashing by saying "But wait, I'm bisexual!" However, many bisexuals are also quick to assert their difference when it comes to someone expressing disbelief or prejudice against them. Dan Carkner 12:44, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

The fact is that most who self-identify "heterosexual" in point of fact actually have bisexual orientation. The stress of living within a compulsory heterosexual society warps the Bell curve.--71.192.239.26 19:00, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Portmanteau?

I'm not convinced that homophobia is a portmanteau word (a blend of two words that blends their meanings as "chortle" for chuckle and snort). It seems like more of a back-formation or other kind of folk etymology, where phobia retains it's normal meaning, but homo has acquired the meaning of "gay" thru its use in homosexual (perhaps interpreted as gay-sexual). Any disagreement? It just doesn't feel portmanteau to me, since it doesn't overlap any sounds or--the morphemes seem to retain their separateness, as in a normal compound word. NickelShoe 16:59, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

I guess it's really homo- as a clipped form of homosexual plus phobia. The point is, that it isn't formed directly from the Greek root homo- meaning "same", otherwise (as pedants love to point out) homophobia would mean "fear of the same". --User:Angr/talk 17:24, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

So couldn't the intro just say it's a word derived from homosexual and phobia, instead calling it a portmanteau? NickelShoe 17:29, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

IMHO, it is a back-formation from homophilia, which itself is a euphemism or replacement word for homosexuality. So my opinion is that people changed the word "homosexual"" and said "homophilic" instead in order to assert that homosexuality has to do with love (philia) not sex. It would only be natural to negate homophilia to get homophobia. Right now, homophilia is a redirect to homosexuality, so I am not sure of the etymology of that word. I have not sources for my opinion so I will go back and check... here are some... [7] [8] MPS 17:35, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

I think that MPS has no idea what he's talking about, or at the very least knows nothing about gay and sexology history. Exploding Boy 21:26, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Here are some more links corroborating the term homophilia as preceding the coining of homophobia(1967) (1968)(1961)

from 1961 link: I have chosen the term homophilia (which, according to Mr. Westwood, is current in high-minded homosexual circles in Switzerland and Scandinavia) to describe the situation where the object of the homosexual's desires is another homosexual, to a greater or lesser extent a mirror image of himself. The relationships between homophiles seem to approximate very closely to the relationships between adult heterosexual men and women (with the obvious difference that both partners have male genitals) running the gamut between settled and prolonged monogamous cohabitation and complete promiscuity. One of Mr. Westwood's contacts said: 'Most of my friends are in what might be called the young married set of the homosexual world'; and some two-thirds of his contacts have had, or are enjoying, affairs, which are defined as 'a strong emotional relationship between two men which has lasted over a year'. It is probably a pair of homophiles The article goes on to distinguish three forms fo "the homosexualities," namely pederast (pederasty), homophile (homophilia), and pathic (pathicism). [9] this article goes on to say that "gay leaders in the 1970s rejected the term "homophile" as conformist, and as a deliberate elision of sexuality. " Now I am off to find sources for the coinage of homophobia... MPS 22:16, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Bingo. George Weinberg: was speaking at a 'homophilia group' meeting. George Weinberg: Homophobia is just that: a phobia. A morbid and irrational dread which prompts irrational behavior flight or the desire to destroy the stimulus for the phobia and anything reminiscent of it. Because human beings are the stimulus, a common homophobic reaction is brutality in many cases, as we all know. We also know its consequences. I am very proud of being the one to have coined the word. I remember the moment in 1965 when it came to me with utter clarity that this was a phobia. I was preparing a speech for a homophile group, which set me to thinking about "What's wrong with those people?" [10] MPS 22:29, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

The word homophile was around before the 1960s. And what does it have to do with the word homophobia? Exploding Boy 17:28, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

The question on the table is what the origen of the word homophobia is. It is pretty clear from the sources I provided that "homophobic" was coined in reaction to (as a negation of) the term homophilic, and that "homophilic" is an older euphemism for "homosexual". Exploding boy, do you think we should start a section in the homosexuality article to develop the history of the word homophilic? MPS 21:08, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Original research

Two points: The section titled "'Homophobia' as applied to political opponents" constitutes original research; it claims that people are frequently labeled as homophobes by their political opponents if they do not support gay rights. It doesn't cite any sources. It also specifically claims that Rick Santorum was labelled a homophobe by critics. It doesn't name these critics. Unless the term was used by Santorum's opponent in a political race, or in a political ad, Santorum shouldn't be mentioned here. If all you can come up with are some partisan blog references, that's not enough.

The third paragraph of the section says "In some cases, it may be possible to oppose one or more of the pro-gay legislative issues listed above without it necessarily being due to visceral antipathy toward gay people, i.e. homophobia." This is original argument, not suitable for an encyclopedia article.

The category "Pejorative political terms" has also been removed from the article, no evidence has been provided that the term "homophobia" is used by politicians or notable commentators to label their opponents. Rhobite 00:55, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

MPS continues to revert the article but hasn't provided any citations and hasn't bothered to discuss the issue here. Rhobite 02:16, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

The Concerned Women for America, a political lobby group, issued a press release following the Rick Santorum affair because they claimed that "The Rick Santorum controversy has illuminated a serious problem in the Republican Party: Its leaders seem woefully ill-prepared to defend the pro-family position on homosexuality." in their advice to "fellow Republicans," they issued several points, including #3..."expose the deceptive terms, such as "sexual orientation," diversity and "homophobia," which are used by pro-"gay" proponents to confuse the issue and control the debate. This requires nothing but making them define their terms at the start of argument, then focusing the debate on clarifying the definitions and exposing their illogic and hypocrisy. " The Press release goes on to say ..."Ask them to identify some examples of non-homophobic opposition to homosexuality. They can't do it because they define all opposition as "homophobic." Do they really believe that disapproval of sodomy/rimming/fisting/sadism is irrational bigotry? You get the idea. You'll find that this technique derails virtually every pro-"gay" argument because each one relies on deceptive rhetoric. " ...

So there you have it, a bone fide prominent political group decrying the politically charged use of deceptive terms, such as "sexual orientation," diversity and "homophobia," as related to the Santorum affair. [11] Show me a non-blog source where a prominent person uses the word "homophobia" or "homophobic" in a way that you would consider appropriate/non-pejorative. I would be interested in seeing whether you can identify a non-pejorative use of this term in a reputable source. MPS 20:52, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Regarding my "continuing to revert"... I had not edited this article for at least a month... since October 12th by my rough recollection. I figured that our discussion above had resolved the issue, but when Rhobite deleted the category the other day I changed it back with comments in the edit summary [12] that reiterated that it is on the list of political epithets. It is clear from the I just source provided that some groups on the political right consider it to be a political epithet. MPS 20:58, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for citing sources, that's all I was asking. I still think you were editing anonymously yesterday but I won't press the issue. Rhobite 21:27, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

No Prob. It's people on all sides working together that makes wikipedia better. On the record, I can honestly say have no affiliation with User:205.188.116.202 [13]. MPS 15:58, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Religioustolerance.org

This article uses the religioustolerance.org website as either a reference or a link. Please see the discussion on Wikipedia talk:Verifiability/Religioustolerance.org and Wikipedia:Verifiability/Religioustolerance.org as to whether Wikipedia should cite the religioustolerance.org website, jguk 14:10, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up. Religioustolerance.org is definitely not NPOV, but it is a source of one brand of opinions, as with blogs. MPS 04:18, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

I think it's less than a "brand of opinions". It's just one person's opinion, which then leaves us with the discussion as to why we should in particular care what that person (rather than anyone else thinks). But then any more conventional blog is usually just one person's opinion too, jguk 09:01, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Dual associations and usage controversy

If the discussion about "homophobia" not being the best parallel to "racism" or "sexism" is worthy of inclusion, then I believe that some mention of "homohatred" as a better parallel is warranted. The construction homo+the word for hate/hatred not only exists in English, but in related languages as well: Danish, Dutch, German, Swedish, and Norwegian. This is not some flash-in-the-pan American or English-language neologism. I have heard/seen it used in the US since at least the mid-1980s; however, it has clearly not gained widespread use or acceptance, as evidenced by the low number of Google hits--in the 300s. Of the languages that I mentioned above, the Dutch version of "homohatred" has the highest number of Google hits--in the 19,000s. Ghumpa 00:59, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Sections moved to talk

I moved the following sections here. There's an explanation for each.

Moved from the dual associations section:

Some users of the term "homophobia" simply mean prejudice against homosexuals or LGBT people. But others use the word to associate the idea of prejudice with fear. One implication of this association would be that a lack of familiarity or comfort with openly LGBT people causes prejudice; some might even go so far as to claim that all prejudice arises from some kind of fear, possibly related to one or another "us vs. them" division.

Who are these people? Let's get names, people! Also, this "some/others" nonsense is just bad style.

As to the validity of the term, it is sometimes argued that the term suggests an irrational, instinctual fear, as other phobias would, which they feel mischaracterizes homophobes' opposition to homosexuality in that it is often based on religious beliefs and/or reasoning as to the nature of sexual relationships.

Who are these people? Who, specifically makes this argument (I know its common, but come on, someone must have actually made the argument)? Also, I removed the scare quotes from 'homophobes'.

Gay rights supporters, on the other hand, argue that homophobia does not stem from mere intellectual terms and therefore an aversion to homosexuality should validly be seen as sheer prejudice and unjustified aversion. However, a counter-argument would be that this is a similar attitude to the "choice" debate at the heart of homosexual persecution.

Not all gay rights supporters make these arguments. So who does? Which organizations or prominent individuals have said this?

A minority argue that homophobia itself stems from a clinical condition, suggesting that the term should be taken literally as a medical definition of ill aversion to homosexuals. Many, including many in the scientific community, are not supportive of this notion,^[14] though some still speculate on the pre-cultural roots of homophobia in today's society. ^[15] The study claimed that ""Discrimination could be an after effect of the ancestral need to protect a group from danger." it went on to say that "key emotions were targeted at different minority groups, with gay men likely to elicit feelings of disgust." The study concluded that "the scientists behind the study say the hard-wiring of our brains should not act as an excuse for homophobia or prejudice, since we can now learn to "dampen down" our fears."

Who are the minorities who make these arguments? Some inline reference to what, exactly, is being referred to is necessary here, including what the study is and who did it. Who are these people in the scientific community who don't agree with this view? Who still speculates? If there's no reference to be found, this is arbitrary original research. Also, I've done some copyediting. -Seth Mahoney 23:06, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

"homohatred"

This term is a neologism at best, and is certainly no more accurate than homophobia. Exploding Boy 02:24, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Darwinistic Homophobia

Is there anything covered on homophobia regarding darwinism? Im sure there has been some people in the world who believe that homosexuality meant having a defective gene or undesirable social darwinist characteristics (gender role reversal). Dont take offense to my question but i'm sure it must of been pondered before. --80.2.175.184 20:58, 23 February 2006 (UTC)