User:BostonMA/Mediation/Sathya Sai Baba/Nagel as source

This page was created as part of the mediation process for the Sathya Sai Baba and related articles. The page is specifically devoted to discussion of the use of Nagel as a source per Wikipedia policy on Verifiable Sources

Factual Account

Alexandra Nagel was the author of an article De Sai Paradox: Tegenstrijdigheden van en rondom Sathya Sai Baba/The Sai Paradox:contradictions of and surrounding Sathya Sai Baba from the series Religieuze bewegingen in Nederland/Religious movements in the Netherlands nr. 29 Sekten/Cults/Sects, published by the Free University of Amsterdam, 1994. The article was published in the Dutch only.

The Free University of Amsterdam advertises that its "origins are rooted in the Christian faith" and that "it still retains its tradition of Christian standards and values."

Since 1994 Nagel has written several other articles, A guru accused and Sai Baba as Shiva-Shakti: a Created Myth? Or?, in English which have not been published in reputable journals, but which are available on the internet. Andries reports that the articles A guru accused and Sai Baba as Shiva-Shakti: a Created Myth? Or? shares both similarities with and differences from her 1994 article. Among the differences, the 1994 article contains information specific to the Netherlands, not mentioned in the other articles, and 1994 article treated only allegations of inappropriate sexual approaches to Tal Brooke and Keith Ord while here later articles also report upon other allegations of sexual misconduct.

I have rewritten the factual account again. Please indicate whether you think this account is fair and factual below. Please discuss policy questions and non-factual issues elsewhere.

• Andries:
• SSS108:
• Thaumaturgic:

Unfortunately, we must rely on Andries assessment of the situation, which I cannot accept. The published article "De Sai Paradox" is only written in Dutch and I don't read Dutch. How this one published article became two separate articles equal in length, if not more, is beyond me. The references for "De Sai Paradox" are hardly comparable, with the references used on "Sai Baba as Shiva-Shakti: a Created Myth? Or?" and "A Guru Accused". Also, one does not notice any references to Sam Young, Helena Klitsie and other names. It seems the main part that is copied is about Deborah Swallow. However, Swallow does not talk about the allegations. Since these two articles have not been published in any reputable sources, they would constitute original research. SSS108 05:13, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Sheesh, SSS108, of course her old article does have references to Helena Klitsie and Sam Young. The article was updated Andries 11:21, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Policy Issues (Verifiability)

The question has arisen whether or not the articles A guru accused and Sai Baba as Shiva-Shakti: a Created Myth? Or? may be considered reliable sources. The Wikipedia policy Verifiability contains text which I believe bears upon the question:

A good way to look at the distinction between verifiability and truth is with the following example. Suppose you are writing a Wikipedia entry on a famous physicist's Theory X, which has been published in peer-reviewed journals and is therefore an appropriate subject for a Wikipedia article. However, in the course of writing the article, you contact the physicist and he tells you: "Actually, I now believe Theory X to be completely false." Even though you have this from the author himself, you cannot include the fact that he said it in your Wikipedia entry.

In the current situation, it may be a fact that Nagel's English articles report many of the same facts as her published article. However, it seems to the mediator that statements by Nagel are analogous to the famous physicists statements about his/her current (dis)belief in Theory X. --BostonMA 03:24, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Please indicate whether you agree or disagree that the above two articles do not satisfy the requirement of verifiable sources according to Wikipedia policies and guidelines. Please do not discuss other issues in this section.

• Andries:
• SSS108:
• Thaumaturgic:

Policy Issue (Verifiability of Non-English Language Source)

The (name) article is written in Dutch. This makes it difficult for many users of Wikipedia who do not read or understand Dutch to verify the content of the source. However, that does not make the source un-verifiable. Encyclopedias have always relied upon multi-lingual authors and editors to honestly report upon materials written in languages other than the language of the encyclopedia. I don't believe Wikipedia is any different in this respect, nor do I believe it should be. --BostonMA 03:24, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I can translate some, but this is a lot of effort and I do not want to hear after translation. Thanks, but we won't use the source anyway because of reason x. Please think in advance before you request a translation. Andries 04:04, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

It is reasonable that you do not want to waste your time. I am guessing, but perhaps incorrectly, that you are a native speaker of Dutch. If so, that is, if you are able to read the article and fully and accurately comprehend it, then I don't see why edits you make in Wikipedia could not be backed by a Dutch language source. Of course I have avoided answering some other questions, such as whether the edits you may make would be considered appropriate for the article, and whether the journal(?) in which the article was published is reliable. So my suggestion is that you not do any translation, if this is at all difficult for you. --BostonMA 04:22, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia demands that non-English sources have to be translated. I do understand this for a minor language like Dutch, though I personally have a bit of a problem with demands of translating major European languages like French and German. Inclusion of those languages is fully accepted in the Dutch scholarly tradition. Yes, I am a native speaker of Dutch, but translating is tedious. Andries 12:21, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I had not seen a requirement that non-English sources must be translated. It is quite possible that I was mistaken. Could you point me to the relevant policy/guideline? Thanks. --BostonMA 15:50, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

This is a guideline, not a policyWikipedia:Reliable_sources#Sources_in_languages_other_than_English It was made somewhat stricter a few months ago. Andries 15:57, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Journal in Which Nagel's Article Published

Alexandra Nagel's article (name) was published in (name). What is reliability of this publication? --BostonMA 03:56, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

The magazine series is called religieuze bewegingen in Nederland/Religious movements in the Netherlands edited among others by Reender Kranenborg, published by the Free University of Amsterdam press. It is the best source published in the Netherlands and sometimes (and in this case) the best in the world. Andries 04:01, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

What is the actual name of the article, and what number or issue of the journal was the article published?

The name of the article is De Sai Paradox: Tegenstrijdigheden van en rondom Sathya Sai Baba/The Sai Paradox:contradictions of and surrounding Sathya Sai Baba from the series Religieuze bewegingen in Nederland/Religious movements in the Netherlands nr. 29 Sekten/Cults/Sects, published by the Free University Amsterdam press, edited among others by Reender Kranenborg (1994) ISBN 9053833412 Andries 13:20, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Why Nagel's article was published by the Free University of Amsterdam is a mystery. In 1994, Nagel had no credentials and no college accreditations. Even Andries cannot say how she got her paper published in this University Journal. No one knows what criteria were used to accept her paper. It is my opinion that the paper in question was a college assignment (just as Nagel stated her other papers were).

Nevertheless, the fact of the matter is that the article was published, in 1994, in a University Journal specific to sects. The Journal is called "Sekten". Nagel's article was called "De Sai Paradox". It is published on Anti-Sai Sites only in Dutch. It has not been translated into English. I believe the relevant information is as follows: Free University Amsterdam; 'Sekten', 1994, nr. 29; ISBN 9053833412 SSS108 05:03, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

The information is correct, though I do no know whether it is a Journal. The tone and the contents of the various articles in that magazine is not anti-cult. Yes, sometimes it is critical, and sometimes very critical, but in almost all cases the criticism is justified. (The series also got better over the years.) Andries 11:39, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

The editors select suitable authors and if there are no suitable authors are available then they publish nothing. I read that Kranenborg could not find suitable authors for Opus Dei or the catholic church (I do not remember which one) and no article was published. The reason for this selection procedure is obvious: these professors, like Kranenborg, have no time to take years to study a single movement from nearby and using participant observation. Apart from that, Nagel wrote in her 1994 article that it was written in close collaboration with Richard Singelenberg and Dutch psychology professor Piet Vroon. The first wrote quite a lot of articles about cults (too lenient and too sympathetically for my taste) and the latter a lot about SSB in Dutch newspaper de Volkskrant. Vroon was first neutral and interested in SSB but later became completely anti after a visit to the ashram and he became sometimes unreasonably and excessively critical. Andries 12:21, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Statements by Parties to Mediation

I have given my opinions, on the some of the issues related to the usability of Alexandra Nagel's work. Please express you own opinions here. --BostonMA 03:24, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

One major difference that she explicitly states is that she was shocked to learn that SSB not only molested young men, but also boys and also the amount of money involved. Another major difference, but not essential and understandable, is that in her updated articles, she does not treat the controversy about SSB in the Netherlands extensively. The fourth major difference is of course, that in the 1994 article she only treated the inappropriate sexual approaches to Tal Brooke and Keith Ord and now the list is longer. I cannot think of any other major difference of her updated articles. She now uses two articles for what she wrote in 1994 in one article. Andries 03:59, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I would argue for caution in accepting the inclusion of this magazine as being de facto reputable. On a previous dispute with Andries, he included an article published in the same magazine written also by a student. This magazine publishes many types of articles, and is not a publication that publishes peer reviewed articles. One thing would be of interest: has Nagel been published at all in any peer reviewed publication?. Googling her name seeems only brings back sites related to critics, or ahem the articles in Wikipedia and Wikipedia mirrors. Having said that, her article should be cited in the article but within proportion to her reputation. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 05:38, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

To answer Jossi's question whether Nagel has been published in a peer reviewed Journal, Nagel published an article about Wolf Messing in relation to SSB in Tijdschrift voor Parapsychologie/Journal for parapsychology 368, vol. 72 nr 4, Dec. 2005, pp. 14-17. It's in Dutch. She also thanked Robert Prddy and Brian Steel in that article for the information they provided in the after word. An unpublished older English language version of that article is linked to in that Wikipedia article. A google test is fine to assess whether somebody is notable enough to have an article about, but it is not a good way to assess the reputability of sources. Also, it is my opinion that the quality of Nagel's article is better than the article by Haan that Jossi is referring to and that I have used a source in another article. It is my opinion that if you want to cite Nagel's article in proportion to the reputability of that article, relative to the reputability of other articles used as a source in the SSB article then Nagel's article deserves a prominent citation. Only the Daily Telegraph and India Today articles are as detailed and have equal or near-equal reputability, I think. Andries 12:21, 12 February 2006 (UTC) (amended for grammar)

It is true that the magazine sometimes accepts articles by guest contributors, but the status of the article is explicitly stated by the editor. Everything indicates that the article by Nagel was a peer reviewed official publication by the Free University of Amsterdam, like the majority of the articles in that magazine. Andries 12:47, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

(A request for SS108: please sign at the end of your last paragraph and not on a separate line, and pleae do not add horizontal rules between postings. Thanks) ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 05:41, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Okay Jossie. But if I forget, please remind me. It's become a habit. SSS108 05:51, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

A simple comparison of the three articles: "De Sai Paradox", "Sai Baba as Shiva-Shakti: a Created Myth? Or?" and "A Guru Accused" shows that they are not one and the same. The only part that seems to be duplicated is the article about Deborah Swallow. Since "Sai Baba as Shiva-Shakti: a Created Myth? Or?" and "A Guru Accused" were not published in any notable references, they constitute original research. Also, to date, Andries has never claimed that the other 2 articles were taken from "De Sai Paradox". This is a recent, newfound, revelation.

Also, it is important to point out that Alexandra Nagel is a self-professed Anti-Sai Activist since 1990. All of her writings are written from a critics POV. Her articles are not neutral and I have pointed out numerous errors in her writings. These writings were college assignments and Nagel rehashed the same information over and over. SSS108 05:35, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Articles need not to be neutral to warrant inclusion. Wikipedia cares about verifiable sources, not neutral sources. NPOV means describing conflicting POVs in a without giving undue weight to any of them. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 05:40, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Jossie, I understand what you said. I am simply pointing out that Nagel is a critic. The way she is described by Andries, gives the impression that she is neutral. I just want to make it clear she isn't. SSS108 05:51, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

No, I don't think so. Andries is arguing for her status as a reputable source. My take is that she is a source and should be cited, but not put her on a pedestal of reputability that may not be warranted. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 05:55, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Her article, "De Sai Paradox" is published in a University Journal. Therefore, I have no problems if Andries cites that particular paper. I have problems when Andries tries to cite Nagel's other papers that were never published in any notable references. It appears that since Nagel had one article published in a notable reference, Andries is wrongfully elevating all of Nagel's papers to the same level. SSS108 06:16, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

It is a practical matter of course. Do we want Wikipedia to use an outdated Dutch language article or do we want Wikipedia to use a reasonable up to date English article? I chose the latter for practical reasons. Andries 11:30, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

About the Free University of Amsterdam

Some background about the VU. Cite from: http://www.geocities.com/fedor_steeman/nederland.html ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 05:52, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

The Free University of Amsterdam. Despite the formal separation between Church and State (and thus education), one University, the Free University of Amsterdam (VU) has an interesting history in relation to creationism. The university has always traditionally been a 'Christian' university. Abraham Kuyper, a cleric and politician founded it in 1880. His intention with the University was to give the religious youth the possibility to profess science on biblical principles. Being an Orthodox Protestant, Kuyper was also strongly opposed to Darwinism. Nowadays the University still requires employees to be (Orthodox) Protestant.

This might explain why the University puts out an Anti-Sect Journal. SSS108 06:03, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

From the VU's website:

Vrije Universiteit's origins are rooted in the Christian faith. This is why we attach such great importance to our social role. We take the view that academic work cannot be divorced from the concerns of society, in terms of standards, values, philosophy and religion.

Abraham Kuyper, Prime Minister of the Netherlands from 1901 to 1905, founded Vrije Universiteit Amsterdam in 1880. At first the university was only open to Reformed Christians and was entirely financed by their fund-raising efforts and donations. Since the 1960s, however, Vrije Universiteit Amsterdam has been open to everyone and funded in the same way as the other Dutch universities, although it still retains its tradition of Christian standards and values. This finds expression in the emphasis placed upon social involvement in the university’s teaching and research programmes.

When citing material published from this University, we need to provide to readers the very relevant information that that this University represents a Christian POV. I intent to add this statement to the many references added by Andries to many articles in Wikipedia. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 06:06, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it is a Protestant University. Refs: 01 - 02 - 03 SSS108 06:49, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

The fact that the VU originally came from a Dutch reformed background is stated in the article VU and should be there and is unrelated to Nagel's article and should not be in the article SSB. Andries 11:19, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I think it is appropriate to state that Kranenborg comes from a Christian background when his writings are used as a source, because the Christian influences in his writings, especially in his earlier writings, can be discerned, but to mention this for every author that was published in the magazine that he edited, is, I think, incorrect and highly exaggerated. Andries 13:48, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Space Reserved for Conversational items to be deleted

She has not written me about this. It is my assessment of her two articles, but I think that she did write to Moreno that the contents of her 1994 article is encapsulated by her two new articles. (this is somewhat in accurate, because her 1994 article contains information specific for the Netherlands, not mentioned in her new articles) Andries 04:08, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I have change the paragraph above. Would you say that it is accurate now? Thanks --BostonMA 04:36, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the wording is fair and accurate if you insert the word "also" in "while here later articles report ALSO upon other allegations of sexual misconduct." Of course nitpicking on the wording is possible and will likely occur, but it is basically fair and accurate. Andries 13:29, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

---

off topic Joe,/SSS108, And how dare you to complain about original research? If there is somebody who is guilty of publishing original research in Wikipedia then it is you. I find it difficult to accept such hypocritical remarks from you. If we only applied a fraction of the critical attitude that you reserve for Nagel to your homepage then information sourced to your homepage would have been gone long ago. Andries 13:33, 12 February 2006 (UTC) (amended for grammar)