Talk:Israeli–Palestinian conflict/Archive 4

Suggestions for rewrite of this page

IMHO, it is time for a rewrite of this page. It focuses to heavily on some events and is brief on some other. And it has grown to long. Maybe it can be restructured like the page Sweden where there is only a brief description for each topic and a "Main article: xxx" link? Whos with me?? BL 19:21, 15 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Why don't you put together a draft under a temporary name? I will help but I don't have time to take the lead. I think that it is necessary to get a new version more or less complete before replacing the current version. -- zero 15:23, 16 Aug 2003 (UTC)

True dat! I will do if someone else says its a good idea so I know that I wont waste my time? BL 08:41, 17 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Recommend removal of the Armenian link

Here are a couple of Internet sources on the limited recent involvement of Armenian interests in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. [1] [2]

In my opinion, the Armenian interest is small and has no significance for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Alternatively, if the Armenian ethnic interest is significant, then the article should include at least a paragraph explaining the relevance of the Armenian ethinic interest in the conflict.

Accordingly, I suggest that the Armenian link should be removed from the Ethnicity section of the article. Rednblu 03:34, 1 Sep 2003 (UTC)

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It's going to be really hard to have a useful article on a conflict between Israel or Israelis (on the one hand) and Palestine or Palestinians (on the other hand) -- without a clear definition of who the "Palestinians" are. Are Palestinians merely "Arab residents of Palestine who are neither Jordanian citizens nor Israeli citizens"? Are Palestinians a non-Arab ethnic group? Are they distinct from Arabs in the same way that the Kurds of Iraq and Turkey are distinct? Are Palestinians an Arab ethnic group? (Like the French are a western European people?)

I think the term Arab-Israeli conflict is unambiguous and makes for a neutral article title. I don't think the "Israeli-Palestinian conflict" has a neutral title. --Uncle Ed 15:05, 8 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I agree. There are way too many flamewars in various places on the web over whether the term "Palestinian" is even a valid one... It just makes more sense to have it as "Arab-Israeli". -James 11:46 PM CST, 1/20/04

The costs of excising the word 'palestinian' are greater than the benifits. While it is less controversial to say 'arab' (nobody disagrees that they are arabs) It seems very anti-palestinian to disenfranchise them in this way. The whole world pretty much recognizes that palestine was once a country and that the peoples of that now destroyed country are refugees. To say that there is no such thing as palestinians seems like denying anything is wrong. I could agree with some text clearly defining the word 'Palestinian' for the purposes of this article, if it wasn't too involved. I've heard alot of rhetoric to the tune of 'there's no such thing as palestine.' Now this is just me, but it seems like a very ugly attempt to play down their right to any land. Agreeing with this sentiment would do worlds more harm than good. Also, from a pragmatic point of view, we already hear about palestinians day in and day out. a person coming to wikipedia to read about this conflict is probably going to search for "israel palestine" or some such. it'd be nice to have them find the page ;) --fringD 02:00 PM (-7), 2/26/2004

Objectivity of this article

It may be impossible to produce an article that is wholly objective about this topic. It is certainly not possible to produce one that satisfies everyone. This article could be improved by giving references for some of the more dubious figures and by prioritizing the more important events and factors. Overall it is a reasonable article. An alternative summary that also attempts to be balanced is at http:/www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm

Ami Isseroff, MidEastWeb for Coexistence www.mideastweb.org

Why not delete?

It may be better not to have an article on the IvP conflict in particular. There's too much emotion, too much...heat. -Penta 09:28, 31 Oct 2003 (UTC)

It is amusing (though sad) to see some more interested in maintaining their views, then sharing them and examining them in the NPOV process. Thanks to all who have and contribute to this article. This, I hope, will create peace, tolerance, and understand. P.T. Waugh MA Clinical Psychology

discussion of Zionism in article.

One thing that has bothered me for a long time about this article is the limited discussion of the zionist movement, esp. the pre-state movement. The word "Zionism" doesn't come up until the see-also's. A reader could easily believe from this article that Balfour was the first person with the idea of a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Certainly, they'd have no idea what the Zionist movement was or is and it's role in the conflict. DanKeshet

The article "The Arab and Jewish refugee situation" is a piece of advocacy based on the unstated premise that Israel belongs to Jews and that all the other people who have lived there for centuries should go elsewhere.

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with a growing Jewish minority (approaching 10%)

Not sure you can/should say that. Even if the Jewish minority grew in absolute numbers, it did, at that time afaik, shrink in relation to the total population. BL 03:47, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)

The Jewish fraction went up and down but generally up, so the statement is ok I think. --Zero 04:39, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Discussion of Palestinian views of the peace process

Article and comments on this topic may be found here:

Palestinian views of the peace process

Talk:Palestinian views of the peace process

The Intro

While the refugee issue has always been a part of the conflict, the territories issue was introduced into it in 1967 after the Six day war. Other conflicts related to these two have also sprung up. It is those two issues that both parties agree must be solved before a just and lasting peace can be established.

Moved to Talk page.

1. I've added the 3rd issue: "To a varying degree by Jews and Arabs, refusing the legitimacy of the other side."
2. The para. above is factually inaccurate. Refugees were part of the conflict since the 1920s? (I am starting from Jerusalem, Jaffa & Hebron massacres. The article mentions 1880s, whis is another good place to start - BILU 1882, etc.)
3. There's never been "Palestinian territories". They were under occupation before 1967 as well. So let's either acknowledge it is Jewish occupation that made all the difference or keep politically correct silence. Humus sapiens 11:19, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)

The 10 Dec 2003 edits

I switched "terrorism " by the Arabs back to the previous "acts of violence" because things like stone throwing and beatings are violent but not terrorist. Terrorism is not sufficiently inclusive. "Zionists and Palestinians" back to "Jews and Arabs". This was before partition and both Jews and Arabs were Palestinians at that time, so the wording I reverted implied that Zionists were fighting Jews as well as Arabs to a greater extent than happened (though it did happen to some degree, with the mainstream Jews opposing the Jewish terrorist groups). Jamesday 12:08, 10 Jan 2004 (UTC)

This article is not about throwing stones. Shame on you for saying so. This is about the entire israeli-Palestinian conflict; just read the title! Since when is mass murdering people in an airport terminal "throwing stones"? Since when is lauching dozens of explosive rockets "throwing stones"? Since when is blowing up a bus with dozens of civilians "throwing stones"? Your hatred of Israelies must be relly intense to be so disingenuous. RK

Perhaps you might want to look at the edit I was referring to, in the paragraph about "During the years 1936-1939 there was an upsurge in militant Arab nationalism that later became known as the "Great Uprising"". Were mass murders in airport terminals or blowing up of busses containing dozens of civilians the majority of violent acts by Arabs during the period 1936 to 1939? Were there any acts (like throwing stones) which are not normally included in the meaning of the word terrorism but are included in "acts of violence"? "Acts of violence" includes everything from throwing stones through rockets and blowing up busses, airports and hotels. That's why I reverted from terrorism to the more inclusive term which was there before. Jamesday 04:21, 12 Jan 2004 (UTC)

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I removed the word terrorism as well, since it was put back. Terrorism is one of the two Wikipedia:Words to avoid, although I doubt the partisans of Zionist occupation of the West Bank here care much about that. Considering that this was all set off by the 1967 Zionist occupation of the West Bank, with the latest intifada starting when Sharon went to the Temple Mount in a purposeful attempt to start a conflict, for which which multiple Palestinians have been killed for every Israeli, it is hard to believe that it is the occupied Palestinians being called the terrorists. -- Lancemurdoch 19:27, 10 Jan 2004 (UTC)

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Some stuff:

1. Yes, Jerusalem is an issue. But since the part of Jerusalem (East Jerusalem) that is the issue is on the West Bank. Mentioning it twice becomes redundant. Unless WP is recognizing Israel's annexation of it, and we aren't, right?
2. Yes, you have to say "occupied territories" everytime you speak about the West Bank and Gaza (which btw was much larger 50 years ago). The Occupied Territories is the most commonly used name.
3. "to at least some extent, whcih varies." <- What does that mean?

BL 22:10, 10 Jan 2004 (UTC)

1. Jerusalem is an independent issue because it was not allocated to either state by the partition, so even if Israel leaves the whole of the West Bank (as delineated by the partition plan, not the ceasefire line), Jerusalem remains an issue unless it's under international administration. We "recognise" the occupation of Jerusalem as a fact and we document the way "recognition" in a political sense is regarded. We don't bless or condemn it - just document it.
2. Remember that the area south of Lebanon is also occupied territory, part of the land allocated to the Arab state, so it's not just a question of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Though the Arabs will probably have to give up that land for peace. However, Occupied Territories with capital letters probably has to be used to refer just to the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, even though the borders of those terriotories have varied. Jamesday 02:55, 11 Jan 2004 (UTC)

"to at least some extent, which varies" is typo meaning that the borders and the extent of occupation varies over time. Jaffa and the area south of Lebanon are occupied all the time, the Gaza Strip and West Bank, full time for parts of both, now claimed by Israel; at least part time for the rest, depending on what's happening that year. Jamesday 03:07, 11 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Is the 1947 Partition Plan really the basis for any discussion? My understanding is that discussion is generally based around the 1949 Green Line. I wasn't aware that the Palestinians even talked about the 1947 partition plan much. My thought was that they either talked about the whole mandate of Palestine, or about the areas occupied by Jordan and Egypt after 1949, meaning that in that case, East Jerusalem counts as part of the West Bank. john 03:31, 11 Jan 2004 (UTC)

The 1947 partition plan isn't the basis for the article (the whole conflict is) but there's still no peace settlement and the issue of territory occupied since partition hasn't been resolved, so it's still, I think, the basis for the official UN position on the territorial borders of Israel. The area matters mostly to the question of the right of return - while it's in Israel it's politically unacceptable to Israel to have lots of Arabs return there. It's also extremely unlikely that Israel will ever accept it being part of an Arab state, even if it was used as a single place to return to. So, document and wait for resolution is about the best we can do, until the Arabs formally give up that land as part of a peace deal, which seems inevitable, eventually. It looks as though a peace deal will eventually revolve around an Israel larger than the Jewish state of the partition plan and, IMO, probably larger also than the Green Line. It seems very unlikely to me that Jerusalem will be anywhere other than in Israel but that's also probably going to mean that there will be continued terrorism, because that's not an acceptable resolution to too many Arabs. International administration would invite a much greater chance of minimal terrorism... but I don't think that international administration will happen anyway, so any likely peace deal will leave continued terrorsm at some level. Jamesday 04:21, 12 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Late reply to JamesDay: What you are talking about is an issue that in reality is resolved. Yes, the UN might not have recognized Israels green-mile borders (does the UN recognize any borders at all?) but it is not an issue that any of the parties discuss today. Ben-Gurion talked about creating "facts on the ground" and whether we like it or not, they did succeed. I have never heard anyone but you saying that the extra territory Israel conquered in the Palestine War is occupied territory. It's either all of Israel is an occupation (the fundamentalist viewpoint) or none of it is. And also that viewpoint also implicitly says that the UN partition plan was correct and not just a UN approved Zionist occupation (which some think). BL 18:43, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I don't think it is the all or nothing split you describe. There seem to be at least some who accept partition Israel or some Israel larger than that but smaller than it is now. The US is one country which does - differs on Jerusalem at least, quite likely more. Not sure of the official US position is on the other bits of territory beyond the partition borders but smaller than Israel's current de-facto borders. Jamesday 23:37, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC)

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The article states that there are two issues/causes to the conflict:

1. The fate of the occupied Palestinian territories - the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.
2. The fate of the Palestinian refugees.

Based upon statements by area politicans there are additional issues that are not listed. Given that agreement one this point is remote, I recommend that we replace those sentances with something similar to "there are several outstanding issues." comments please.

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The article starts with a statement that the conflict is based upon occupation and refugees. This is disputed. In the related talk page it is contended that the basis of the conflict pre-dates 1967 (occupation) and even pre-dates (1948). Indeed, the "cycle-o-violence" began no later than the riots and massacres of 1929 or even 1920. The Palestinian claim nationhood or peoplehood at those times if not from an earlier date. The statement should be removed till we agree on what the basis of the conflict is. OneVoice 22:29, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The above comment is remarkably incoherent -- OneVoice, what exactly are you trying to say? Who disputes the basis of conflict? You or someone else? I am reverting this edit; if we agree that this needs to be reformulated, then it should be changed. -- Viajero 10:09, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The article claims two bases for the conflict:

1. occupation
2. refugess

The conflict began not later than 1929 and perhaps no later than 1920. At that time there was neither occupation nor refugees. The bases of the conflict can not be events that would not take place for another 20 years.OneVoice 13:03, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)

READ THE TEXT, OneVoice. It says

The conflict between Israelis and Palestinians revolves today around these two issues:

note operative word today. It does not claim that these are the origins of the conflict. -- Viajero 13:36, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Ah....today...Lets make that more explicit! and include previous basis OneVoice 13:41, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)

No, wrong. This article is about Israel. Israel didn't exist before 1948, hence the line following the two items is quite correct:

While the latter issue has always been a part of the conflict the aforementioned issue was introduced into it in 1967 during the Six day war. Other conflicts related to these two have also sprung up at a later stage. That is to say, the refugee problem has existed since the creation of Israel in 1948. Clear? -- Viajero 13:56, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Are we to delete all material before 1948 because Israel did not exist? SHould we rename the article to include pre-1948 material Yishuv-Palestine Conflict? That may not help anyone understand....How can we word the definitional paragraph to include pre and post 1948? OneVoice 14:44, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Protected page

I have protected the page after a request by Viajero. I also saved to the version before the revert war (edited by anon). Please let me know when the conflict is resolved so that I can unprotect it (or someone else can do it). I have no idea what the conflict is about (didn't even look at the diffs), so that I am not partial to any version. Dori | Talk 15:03, Feb 13, 2004 (UTC)

I think both of those users (Viajero and OneVoice) should stop editing the page for a month or so. Branden 01:29, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)

If they agree to this I'll unprotect it. However, there would be no point if another revert war were to ensue soon after unprotecting the page. Dori | Talk 02:10, Feb 16, 2004 (UTC)

Still protected. Please either unprotect or add protection notification OneVoice 02:14, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)

DEFINE STUFF

Defining stuff is the only way out of this mess.