Talk:Robert the Bruce

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The Bruce? Or Bruce?

Is it Robert THE Bruce, or is it just Robert Bruce?

  • Technically it's both. Robert Bruce, hence Robert of the Bruce family!
    • my understanding is that when the definite article "The" is used, you are referring to the head of the family and/or laird of the region. The MacKenzie, The Bruce, etc.
  • I'm afraid that there may not be a clear answer to this question, since most contemporary records may describe him in Norman French as Robert le Brus. It would be interesting to know how Barbour describes him.
      • The style "The MacIntosh" or "The MacArthur" or

what have you indicates that the person so designated is Chief of the indicated Name or Clan. Robert the Bruce was Chief of the Name of Bruce. The style is still used today.

In the case of Robert the Bruce, long usage has reinforced the style. Barbour refers to King Robert I in several different ways, including as "The Bruce," as well as "the lord Bruce" and as "The King."

  • What is the relationship between the Bruce family and the Stewarts? I have seen on the House of Stuart page that Robert the Bruce was listed as Robert Stewart (Stuart?). Would that be the same person?
      • The daughter of King Robert I married Walter Stuart,

and their son became Robert II, the first of the Stuart Kings of Scots. The Monarch of Scotland was always referred to as "King of Scots" rather than "King of Scotland," the idea being that the Scottish Monarch was first Chief among many Chiefs, rather than an absolute Monarch.

  • We appear to be in danger of getting into a serious muddle between his mother and his daughter. I know his daughter is normally describe as Marjorie Bruce, but should we describe his mother as Marjorie or Margaret? PatGallacher 01:38, 2005 Feb 21 (UTC)

Bruce's Cave

Is it necessary to have the reference to Bruce's Cave? I'm sure there are dozens of places around Scotland and elsewhere named after him and it would seem unnecessary to pick out one fairly obscure example. Leithp 19:17, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Probably not. There's a cave on Arran that claims to be the true cave, but there may be others, too. Berek 07:57, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I took out the reference to Rathlin Island, as it's been a couple of weeks and no-one has given a reason for it to remain. Leithp 10:05, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Normandy

Could someone please amend the article with the fact that "Bruce" is a Norman family name from Robert's ancestor "Brusse" who came to the island with his cousin William the Conqueror during the Norman Invasion. Both Brusse and William were descended from (respectively) Turf-Einar and Rollo, the sons of Ragnvald Eysteinsson, the Jarl of Moer.

Robert born in Chelmsford?

The articles Chelmsford and Writtle both contain the sugestion that the latter (which is in or near the former, apparently) is considered a possible birthplace of Robert. I would have thought that the possibility of a non-Scottish birth would be worth a mention in this article, if credible enought to be mentioned in those. But I'd prefer to leave this to folks who know a lot more about the subject than I do. Sharkford July 8, 2005 17:28 (UTC)

According to one biography I have read, one medieval source does claim that he was born in Chelmsford, but this is not taken seriously by historians. The Treaty of Edinburgh-Northampton explicitly claims that Scotland and England both now had kings of their own birth. Lochmaben has a claim which is possible, but it is probably Turnberry Castle in Ayrshire. PatGallacher 2005 July 8 21:32 (UTC)

Where were Robert the Bruce's parents when he was born? Adraeus July 8, 2005 22:13 (UTC)

Good question. As at that time his parents were Earl and Countess of Carrick this is the main argument for Turnberry Castle as his birthplace, as this was the seat of the Earls of Carrick. PatGallacher 2005 July 8 22:57 (UTC)

King of Scots, the traditional style of the Monarch of Scotland

The Monarchs of Scotland were styled as "Kings of Scots," not "Kings of Scotland." - unsigned comment by: 66.156.107.108)

Not really true. Both titles were always in use, and in fact, King of Scotland is older - i.e. ri Alban 900; rex Scotiae 1034; Basileus/Rex Scottorum, late 11th century. I don't mind King of Scots instead of King of Scotland - but "King of Scots, the traditional style of the Monarch of Scotland" is useless, cumbersome and misleading. - Calgacus 05:14, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Without doubt your opinion on this matter is of great importance. However, to quote the late Sir Iain Moncreiffe of that Ilk: "So the royal style was patriarchal not territorial, for it embraced Scotsmen everywhere into the national family: not 'King of Scotland' but 'King of Scots'." Moncreiffe of that Ilk, Sir Iain, Bt. "The Highland Clans." New York: Clarkson N. Potter, Inc., 1967, p. 32.

Sir Iain Moncreiffe I hope is not being literal, and if he is, he's talking nonsense. Don't get me wrong, I've heard people saying this before, but because I've actually consulted primary sources, I know it isn't true; although in the high middle ages, it was more common in Europe as a whole to call a king rex +people (e.g. rex Anglorum, rex Romanorum, etc), to imply that the Scots were unique in this or that the Scottish king confined himself to this title alone is bad history. - Calgacus 15:08, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Robert, Walter and Niall Bruce

Did any of these sons of Robert I have any descendants? Indeed, are there any Bruce families still living in Scotland descended in male line from the Bruce family? What about the children of his brothers, uncles, cousions? Fergananim 16:49, 19 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

None of the illegitimate sons of Robert the Bruce have any living descendants, and, of course, the Crown was settled on Robert II, the first Stewart King, because David II, King Robert the Bruce's son, had no children.

When it became apparent that David II would die childless, and the settlement of the Crown would go to Robert Stewart, King David chartered the Royal fortress of Clackmannan to his "blood cousin" ("consanguinious noster" in the Latin of the charter) Thomas Bruce. Today it is not known for certain exactly what the relationship of this Thomas was to the King, but it is certain that King David II and his advisors would have known who was the senior Bruce after himself. The House of Clackmannan has represented the senior line of the Family or Name of Bruce since the 14th Century, and indeed, it still does today. The representer of the Clackmannan line, and today's Chief of the Name of Bruce is Sir Andrew Bruce, The Earl of Elgin and Kincardine, Knight of the Thistle.

All of the Bruce Families extant today are descended from this Clackmannan line. The many people who claim to be direct descendants of Robert the Bruce have to have Stewart connections, since the only line from him still in existance is through his daughter Marjorie.66.156.107.108

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