Talk:Nair

The material refered as copyrighted is quoted from public domain work by Dr B Nair and is not subject to copyright. Thanks

In this case you may restore the text, but you must indicate source and the fact that it is public domain. Otherwise someone else may remove it. Mikkalai 05:26, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

By the way, please do not interfere with votes for deletion. Please read wikipedia policies. You may be blocked from editing for destructive actions. Mikkalai 05:26, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Points on the main article

The current article could mislead readers to believe that historically there were the Namboodiris and then the rest of the caste-ranked Hindus in old Kerala were all in general Nairs. This is an erroneous representation of the complex caste system. There were/are many castes equivalent to the Kshatriyas and Vaishyas between the Namboodiris and the Nairs. The old royal families of Travancore and Tirukochi were/are Kshatriyas. Thampis are not Nairs. Thampis are a Kshatriya clan, although they did occasionally take Nair women as brides, as did the Namboodiris, through the practice of Sambandham.

In the old social hierarchy Nairs were the equivalent of Sudras, as Nairs were the borderline community at the low end of the four-fold social hierarchy, with Thiyas/Ezhavas coming immediately below Nairs, considered outside the caste systems and not allowed to freely practice Hindu rituals. Both Nairs and Ezhavas were considered untouchables though with varying degrees of ‘untouchability’ associated with each group. Although certain Nairs were active in the rank and file of regional warring groups (Nayar padas) led by the Kshatriya chieftains, the Nairs themselves were equivalent of Sudras and therefore referred to in old Malayalam in some parts of Kerala as “choodraru”.

RKT 29 Aug 2005

Nair Community's Role in Caste Emancipation

The Nair community played a frontal role in the area of the emancipation of lower castes, most notably for the policy allowing all Hindus access to temples. Could somebody please chip in with details on this? I don't think the material would be difficult to find. --Lettherebelight 14:01, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

To an extent considering the role of Nairs in Communism movement and also the fact that one of the founding fathers of Dravidian movement was a Nair(T M Nair of Justice party?) Nairs did a play a major role in movement against caste/feudal hierarchy. However, so did some of the Namboothiris. And the people they fought against were feudal Nairs, Namboothiris and Iyers. So things are bit intermixed here. -Manjunatha ( 18 Sept 2005)

I beg you not to confuse the caste emancipation movement with the Communist and Dravidian movements. Communism's impact was felt much later in Kerala, and the Dravidian movement had very little impact in Kerala. Maybe, Namboothiris helped in caste emancipation too, but this page is about Nairs, not Namboothiris. There may have been (and there still may be) feudal Nairs opposed to caste emancipation. But that does not mean, the contributions of community stalwarts like Mannathu Padmanabhan should not be included. --Lettherebelight 05:46, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Bhagat Singh was a proud atheist but he is the pride of religious/fundamentalist Sikhs too. A person rejects caste identities but he's the pride of that caste. Nobody sees the irony here. I'm not confused. If you are expecting somebody to write about Nairs role both in the regidity of caste system and the emancipation thereafter then you are just echoing my thougts. But if you want to show only the good side, well, I beg to differ. --Manjunatha (21 Sept 2005)

Nobody is preventing you from writing about the negative side. --Lettherebelight 10:34, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

I would prefer the person who writes positive things also write about negative things. Atleast that way, the article would sound more NPOV. Don't you see some people indeed get frustrated with one-sided article and try to vandalize it with only the opposite side? Anyaway, I'm certainly not an expert when it comes to Nairs, however, I do know few things. --Manjunatha (28 Sept 2005)

Okay, I get your point. Though NPOV is a requirement, it may so happen that a person may have knowledge only about the positive aspects. As long as the article stays objective, a postive comment will not affect the NPOV of the article.

--Lettherebelight | പ്രകാശമുണ്ടാകട്ടെ | Talk 09:58, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Mannadiars

Mannadiars of palghat follow patrilineal system of inheritance. Malabar manual by William Logan may be referred to

Are Nairs the Descendants or Ancestors of Newars?

I would be inclined to think that they are descendants, since the Newars settled the Kathmandu valley in the 3rd or 4th century AD. However, it could be possible that the Nairs or Newars had a common ancestral group, which split - one group remaining in the north, and the other moving south. I am inclined to think that architectural traditions would only happen once a group has settled in one area for a long time. In this case, Nairs can only be descendants since Nair architechture closely resembles Newar architecture, and could only have developed from already existing Newar architecture. These are just musings, if anyone can find concrete sources, it would be helpful. --Vivin 05:09, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

It appears that no one has information on the above? :) -- Vivin Paliath (വിവിന് പാലിയത്)

The better proof would be Y-chromosome test of Nair men(without Namboothiri ancestry). I don't have much data on this. But the one I have shows haplogroup H, a Dravidian stock. This haplogroup is mostly found in South India. I suppose Newars are Mongoloid or East Asian. -Manju

Interesting. Do you have more information? Better yet, is there any way I can get in touch with you? Are you a wikipedia user? --Vivin Paliath (വിവിന് പാലിയത്)

Of course you can contact me with my wikipedia user id. -Manjunatha Arpalmane

Nairs brought to Kerala from Orissa

I couldn't find any basis for this theory. The text also talks about a war between the "Northern" and "Southern" kingdoms in Kerala (as two separate kingdoms). There has never been such a classification. The kingdoms that ruled Kerala (around the sangam age) were the Ays, Cheras and Cholas. There has been no record of any kingdom "importing" people from Orissa. Also, it seems highly unlikely - why would they want to go all the way to Orissa? What connection did they have with Orissa? Vivin Paliath (വിവിന് പാലിയത്) 23:19, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Kalaripayattu

The page for that martial art has become embroiled in a major POV over whether it can be regarded as an ancestor to the various Chinese arts. However that controversy ends up being resolved, the tone taken in this article on this subject definitely takes a non-neutral POV. 165.247.175.182 03:18, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

I think the current version is more NPOV. It says that "some people hold the view". --Vivin Paliath (വിവിന് പാലിയത്) 01:31, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

Thetruth/209.86.122.188

Please stop deleting information from this article and vandalizing it. If you have issues with the information listed in the article, please discuss it here. At the very least, please provide an explanation for your changes. --Vivin Paliath (വിവിന് പാലിയത്)

Nairs were Sudras?

I find that highly unlikely, seeing that Nairs were second in the caste system only to Namboothiris. Furthermore, Namboothiri men were allowed to wed Nair women.

Yes, it's even difficult to believe Tiyas were untouchables once. However, it's upto you to decide whether you are a shudra or some other caste. My wife thinks, a Nair herself, that Nairs are Vaishyas. The reason being there are distinct Kshatriya families. However, some of other Nairs and perhaps you too, consider themselves Kshatriya considering they were the soldiers(So were Ezhavas especially in northern Kerala). However, what about Brahmins? What did they think about Nairs? "Pure Shudras".

Let's see the technicalities. "Manu Smriti", the supreme authority over caste divisioins, declared that all Dravidians were Shudras(degraded from their Kshatriya position). In the initial days of caste system, the farmers were also considered as Vaishyas. However, as time passed only traders have remained part of Vaishyas. So you can see a proper division of castes along Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya and Shudra(farmers, cowherds, artisans etc) in North-India. The division of castes in South India was entirely different. Keeping with the spirit of Manusmriti it was divided along "Pure Shudras" and "impure Shudras". In this way, Nairs were higher above other Malayali castes.(Mind you, many merchant castes of Kerala may not agree with it, so do Tiyas who have theoritical knowledge of castes and consider Nairs as their equals).

More over, Brahmin, Kshatriya and Vaishya castes were called 'twice born' or 'dvija' castes. These three castes were required to undergo "sacred thread" ceremony. I'm not sure even the Kshatriyas of South India had this system.

--Manjunatha 4 Aug 2005 (16:16 IST)

I have added a section to the article, called "Kshatriyas or Sudras?", that highlights the issue. You are welcome to add to it, or change it. I've tried to keep it as NPOV as possible. One major thing that I've noticed is that it's nearly impossible to compare the caste system of Kerala to the rest of India, because it was so different. Nairs seem to have some elements of Sudra (Namboothiris considered being touched by a Nair to be polluting), and Kshatriya (they were a ruling and martial class) castes. I have added points supporting both views. Also, in future, please sign your posts with the tildes, since it helps to know who I'm responding to. Also, you can indent by using one or more colons. It makes it easier to followe the discussion. --Vivin Paliath (വിവിന് പാലിയത്)

Yes, it's difficult to compare our caste system with that of North-India. Well, not only Kerala but whole South India. We don't come under the normal definition of caste system as in North-India. Of course, caste itself was never part of South Indian society until the arrival of Brahmins. However, it's possible that we had classes.

In Europe, any able bodied man could fight. However, the influence of caste is such that we are prejudiced to think that whoever fought in the past were Kshatriyas or only Kshatriyas could fight and nobody else. But there are many exceptions to these sacred rules. India's so-called golden age was 'Gupta Period' and Guptas were/are declared Vaishyas. Shivaji was actually part of Kunbi community(farmers and thus declared shudras) but declared a Maratha during coronation. I think there was a Nair who became king of some region in Kerala after undergoing 'HiranyaGarbha Kriya' to become a Kshatriya(I forgot the region and name of that king).

Considering these facts and hopefully understanding the absurdity of the caste system, I would expect the tone of the article should be dismissive of the caste identity. I would prefer to use the term 'declared'.

What I'm observing the favoured communities of the past(with 100% reservation in education or with 100% reservation in administration) taking pride and deprived communities taking pride in the victimization(by default, it makes them GOOD) and suitably appropriating loose historical findings to claim a past greatness. Well, it's possible these prejudices give these people a kind of superiority complex or positive outlook and help them to live with confidence. However, Wikipedia is not a place to achieve it.

Here we would like to see a more objective analysis. The issues of superiority and inferiority of any caste/race/sexes must be suitably weighed against the cultural prejudices and geographical boundaries. There is a beautiful anecdote in Hinduism, 'Koopa Mandooka' or 'Frog of a well', for narrow minded people or views. This should be applied to Hindu customs and society too.

Well, I'm not going to edit or add anything to the article. You should be able to do it. I've noticed that you have modified the origin of Kalaripayat. I really appreciate it. I apologize for not signing the previous post.

--Manjunatha (17 Aug 2005 11:57 IST)

I didn't come back to this article until a few days ago, and that's when I noticed the message about "Nairs are not sudras" and your response to it. That's why I went ahead and added that section, because I thought some sort of perspective is necessary. Also, I really would like you to add more information to this article. I also detest any sort of perceived caste/class superiority or arrogance. I've tried my best to make this article NPOV, but if you feel some parts are POV, you are welcome to edit them. In the article, I was merely trying to state that Nairs seem to have attributes of both classes, but ultimately, it is comparing apples and oranges since the south indian caste system was wholly different from the north indian one. And as you said, South india was a classless society until the arrival of the Brahmins. --Vivin Paliath (വിവിന് പാലിയത്)

Chuttran

68.192.203.65 insists on adding the following line:

"Nairs are Sudras ... they are known as Chuttran in the south". I couldn't find the term "Chuttran" anywhere. Plus, the "Kshatriyas or Sudras" question is being addressed later in the article. --71.104.193.32

Matrilineal system

Matrilineal system is not unique to Nairs in Kerala. Yes, it is the most wellknown and and perhaps really distinct from other castes in the case of maternal inheritance of property. However, many Malayali castes did follow matrilineal system. Among Namboothiris 'Payyannoor Namboothiris' were matrilineal. Few Tiyya/Ezhava families were matrilineal. A weaver caste called Saliyas was matrilineal. Though Payyannoor Namboothiris were matrilineal the gothras were inherited patrilineally. But in the case of Saliyas even gothras were inherited matrilineally. Among Tuluvas, a section of caste called bunts were matrilineal. I have even read some communities in Tamil nadu were matrilineal.

It's difficult decide the influence of Nairs over other castes when it comes matrilineal system in Kerala. Since South Indian society was supposed to be matrilineal in the beginning. A case in the point is Satavahanas. The initial Satavahana kings names (Goutami putra Satakarni, Vasishti putra Pulamayi) show a matrilineal inheritance of family names.

--Manjunatha (28 Sept 2005)

Vegetarian

I couldn't find any documentation to prove/disprove that Nairs were originally Vegetarian. It's true that many Nair families were/are vegetarian, but some say that Nairs were originally non-vegetarian and became vegetarian after the arrival of Brahmins. --Vivin Paliath (വിവിന് പാലിയത്) 02:53, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Megasthanese

[This] article says Megasthanese mentions Pandyas but not Cheras. --Manjunatha (13 Oct 2005)

Hyder Ali and caste

It's really mindboggling that Hyder Ali could determine the caste hierarchy. The general perception is that only Brahmins had that privilege. Probably, a definite source(not somewhere in the Cochin royal library) would be really helpful in this really interesting aspect. --Manjunatha (13 Oct 2005)

Are nairs related to NAYAR / NEWAR / NAIKs / Turkish Nair / Scottish McNair?

Are nairs related to NAYAR in punjab / NEWAR in nepal / NAIKs in Kanara / Nairs in Turkey / Scottish McNair?

Some examples if turkish nairs I found on the net are like this line: "Sara Nair was born in Edirne, Turkey, in approximately 1925. She moved to Istanbul when she was young. She is known as Madame Sara, the renowned spirit medium of Turkey"

Excess quotes, terrible formatting, etc. etc.

Someone (I haven't tracked) has added a bunch of excess quotes about Nairs, essentially making the article unreadable and of lower quality. I am going to try to consolidate that information in to the last "readable" version. Until then, I'm presenting an (older) readable version. --Vivin Paliath (വിവിന് പാലിയത്)

Excessive quotes and personal marketing etc.

However, the sudras in the rest of India were never a martial class, since warfare was the profession of the Ksyathriyas. According to this interpretation, Nairs would seem to be more like Kshatriyas since they were a martial class as well. Similar to Kshatriyas, they were only second to the Brahmins (Namboothiris). Furthermore, many Nair families were aristocratic. They owned large feudal estates and in some cases, even took part in the ruling of Kerala. An example is the Paliam family from Chendamangalam. The oldest male of the family, the Paliath Achan, served as the Prime Minister to the Raja of Cochin.

Would be a service to our community's reputation if stuff such as the above is also removed, as I see it is, it is mostly hot air and personal family image projection. Not the stuff fit for an universal encylcopedia! This what prompts others to throw garbage into the article.

I agree. Also, those assertions are factually incorrect. Mauryas, Guptas, Shivaji, and all the South Indian royal families before the emergence of caste system in South India were not Kshatriyas.