Talk:Boy Scouts of America membership controversies

LETS STICK TO FACTS - Until someone can give me the name of a Scout in a non-leadership position who was removed from BSA for being openly homosexual, the fact remains that BSA policy as written on it's own page proscribes known and avowed homosexulas from LEADERSHIP positions not general boy membership! I'll probably be waiting for a long time as there never has been any. Atheism is another matter, altogether and is proscribed for general members. GCW

Whether I can name a rejected member is irrelevant, since there are reasons why this may be hard even if the policy exists:

• There may be few avowed homosexual 10 year olds because 10 year olds are too young to have many sexual feelings in the first place, let alone to identify with homosexuals as a group.

PRECISELY!

• When there are such boys, BSA officials might refuse to believe they are homosexual at all, instead claiming the boys are "confused". Using this excuse on older boys would be harder.

PRECISELY! As you say "10 year olds are too young to have many sexual feelings in the first place" That's been BSA's position all along and why sexuality (homo or hetero) isn't an appropriate topic within Scouting to begin with.

• 10 year olds who do get thrown out of the BSA may be less likely than older boys to make a national case out of it, so we probably won't hear about it.

As you say "MAYBE" - Seems to be in conflict with your previous argument that "10 year olds are too young to have many sexual feelings in the first place

The way to find out if the BSA has a policy isn't to name rejected members, it's to look at their policy. The policy quoted in BSA vs. Dale clearly says that homosexuals may not be members. You have yet to quote any later policy that changes that. You have quoted later policies that are silent on whether homosexual members are allowed, but that's not the same thing. Ken Arromdee 18:29, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

The current 2004 policy is posted below under Youth Leadership. That's the current one on Youth and homosexuality.

There is no conflict with my previous statements, because those statements use words like "few" and "less likely". That means there won't be as many gay 10 year olds as there are of older boys. It doesn't mean there will be *none*. There will still be some younger members to whom the anti-gay policy applies; it's just that since there are fewer of them, it's harder to name names.

I can see the current policy below, but you seem to be under the impression that it lets gays be members. It does not. It's silent about the issue; it says that gays may not be leaders, but nowhere does it say that they may be members.

Moreover, the policy says that members must be morally straight in thought, and defines that such that members must believe homosexual conduct is wrong. Gay boys don't believe that (even if they don't exercise in that conduct themselves) so they'd be disqualified.

Would you be satisfied with something like this paragraph?:

The decision in BSA vs. Dale quotes a 1993 BSA policy which explicitly excludes homosexuals as members. The more recent 2004 policy mentions only leaders and does not say whether homosexuals may be members. However, it does require that BSA members must be morally straight in thought and be willing to accept BSA beliefs, including a belief in the wrongness of homosexuality; since homosexual boys would normally not accept that, they would be not allowed as members.

Ken Arromdee 02:30, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

I think the below is more accurate and would have no problem with it. The "BSA Beliefs" have always been the Scout Oath and Law. You don't have to subscribe to the BSA position statements. Adults do have to also agree to the Declaration of Religious Principles.

The decision in BSA vs. Dale quotes a 1993 BSA policy which explicitly excludes avowed homosexuals as members. The more recent 2004 policy mentions only leaders and does not say whether avowed homosexuals may be members. However, it does require that BSA members must be morally straight in thought and be willing to follow the Scout Oath and Law. GCW

Does being morally straight in thought, and willing to follow the oath and law, have anything to do with homosexuality? Would a boy who doesn't think homosexuality is wrong, and who considers himself to be homosexual violate that? Ken Arromdee 15:31, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Why has this article been spunoff from the Boy Scouts of America article? I think this might be construed as a POV fork, and, IIRC, there is a guideline/policy against such things. crazyeddie 06:23, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Omission

It's ridiculous that this (since long before it was a separate article) doesn't mention anywhere that the Boy Scouts bars gay members, only leaders. I've changed this. -

Well I've changed it back to show the actual current written policy. Let's stick to current facts, not opinions if this is going to be an encyclopedia and not an editorial page.

First of all, BSA is only concerned about AVOWED homosexuals who publicly declare that they are homosexual and are using their Scout position to advocate it or any other political cause. I know a few of my fellow Scout Leaders who are homosexual. Nobody cares as long they keep it out of Scouting and the newspapers.

Not true - James Dale did NOT "use his Scout position to advocate" any cause, he was identified as a member of the Gay and Lesbian Alliance at Rutgers in a Newark Star-Ledger story. He was not identified as a Scout in the story, nor did Dale try to "use" his Scout position in any way. He was kicked out ONLY because he was gay, period. Dennis St. Jean, the longtime director of the BSA's Florida seabase, was fired because, on vacation, he went to a "predominantly gay" resort and the BSA found out. St. Jean never attempted to use his Scouting position to advocate anything; it was weeks before this news was even made public. There ARE many BSA units that refuse to enforce the BSA's policy, but national BSA policy is to kick out gay members - there is no allowance for being gay and staying in Scouting by "not using your position to advocate homosexuality" or somesuch. What you're seeing locally are people deliberately ignoring the official BSA policy.

The Scoutmaster's Handbook instructs adult leaders to instruct boys whao have sexual questions to discuss them with their parents or religious leaders. The general principle is that adolescent youth members (who are under 18) are not yet old enough to know if they are really homosexual.

(And if anyone needs a source for "Critics contend that some leaders within BSA have investigated and expelled non-avowed homosexual leaders and members from the organization." (with respect to members), there's several such contentions by a critic in the Pool/Geller brief in BSA vs. Dale.) Ken Arromdee 07:45, 10 October 2005 (UTC) That's right it's from a critic not BSA policy. Here's the policy:

Only Leaders, Not general members. Here's the BSA position on Youth members:

● Youth Leadership Boy Scouts of America believes that homosexual conduct is inconsistent with the obligations in the Scout Oath and Scout Law to be morally straight and clean in thought, word, and deed. The conduct of youth members must be in compliance with the Scout Oath and Law, and membership in Boy Scouts of America is contingent upon the willingness to accept Scouting’s values and beliefs. Most boys join Scouting when they are 10 or 11 years old. As they continue in the program, all Scouts are expected to take leadership positions. In the unlikely event that an older boy were to hold himself out as homosexual, he would not be able to continue in a youth leadership position

So adult and youth leadership positions are proscribed, not general youth membership. GCW

There is more than one part of BSA vs. Dale that's relevant. One of them is from critics, and is relevant to the "critics contend that" statement. The other is *not* from critics; it's a direct quote from a BSA policy that states that the BSA does not allow homosexuals as members.

As you'll notice, the newer quote you gave doesn't say that homosexual members are allowed. It says that leaders aren't allowed, but it never says that members are. And considering that it says that membership is contingent on accepting Scouting's values, and Scouting's values are that homosexuality is wrong even in thought, it seems to implicitly say that members may not be homosexual even though it doesn't say so explicitly.

Ken Arromdee 04:43, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

This is an obvious example of hearsay since I've never looked at a scouting manual myself, but I've heard that the manual prohibits masturbation and can kick members out if they catch them doing it. Can anyone confirm this?207.157.121.50 23:48, 23 October 2005 (UTC)mightyafrowhitey

YOU FOUND IT IN ANCIENT HISTORY. The 1910 manual also teaches Scouts how to stop runanway horses.

Robert Baden-Powell, who died in 1941, warned budding Scouts in the book first published in 1908: “You all know what it is to have at times a pleasant feeling in your private parts, and there comes an inclination to work it up with your hand or otherwise.

“Well, lots of fellows, from not knowing any better, please themselves in this way until it often becomes a sort of habit with them which they cannot get out of.

“The practice is called self abuse and the result is that the boy after time becomes weak and nervous and shy.

“He gets headaches and probably palpitation of the heart, and if he still carries it on too far he very often goes out of his mind and becomes an idiot.” …

He wrote: “The use of your private parts is not to play with when you are a boy but to enable you to get children when you are grown-up and married.

“But if you misuse them while young, you will not be able to use them when you are a man.

“Remember too that several awful diseases come from indulgence - one especially that rots away the inside of men’s mouths, their noses and eyes.”

"I've never looked at a scouting manual myself, but I've heard that the manual prohibits masturbation and can kick members out if they catch them doing it. Can anyone confirm this?" if you're referring to the Boy Scout Handbook (10th edition and 11th edition), neither edition references masturbation IIRC. ~a 17:04, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Cites

The current page reads "Similarly, less than twelve other leaders and members have been asked to leave a BSA Council because of engaging in public dissent in the media." As I know of no official BSA announcement as to how many people they have kicked out due to public dissent in the media, where does the very specific "less than twelve" come from? I would not accept the writer's only hearing of 11 or fewer cases as sufficient support to state "less than twelve".