Wikipedia talk:Portal/Guidelines/Archive 6

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Archives: Archive 1

Portal namespace questions

I have a few questions, now that we have the division in portals.

1. What exactly is the the difference between a reader and a user-aid portal? I know its says that"If your Wikiportal is designed as a reader-aid, such as Portal:Cricket, please place it in the portal namespace. If it is an editor-aid, keep it at Wikipedia:Wikiportal/Subject.", but all of them have been moved to the Portal namespace, except the most recently created ones. For an average Wikipedia user, how do you tell the difference, and why differentiate to begin with?

2. Having a seperate namespace suggests that portals are an important and different section of the Wikipedia world. How are we exposing average readers to portals? Having the links on Wikipedia:Browse is alright, but not very visable. I suggested (above and at Talk:Main_Page#Portals_link) a link on the main page to a page I created (Portal:Browse) be placed in the Template:Categorybrowsebar, since it seems to me that Portals are a different form of browsing Wikipedia. This is a task for an admin since the template is protected.

3. Who is going to go around cleaning up all the redirects created by moving the Wikiportals over? I know that moving the aviation portal created probably close to 100 new redirect pages that (I hope) have no links to them other than the odd talk page. Also a task for an admin.

A few concerns that I hope we can clear up before portals get so big that changes are overwhelmingly (sp?) difficult. - Trevor MacInnis(Talk | Contribs) 21:08, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Good and relevant questions. Unfortunately, I have no answer to any of them. I've seen no admin involved here so far. I hope the questions above will find answers ASAP as I agree w/ you that this is the right time to tackle those issues before it's too late. -- Svest 21:26, September 4, 2005 (UTC) Wiki me up&#153;

Sub-standard Portals

I've just gone through all the Portals in the browser bar and just realised how many sub-standard Portals there are. In particular, Portal:Zelda seems like vandalism. Others could barely be designated "under-construction" and yet are within the browser as completed Portals. That there are Portals that shouldn't exist was an issue raised before the archive, but one that recieved little attention. If Portals are to gain credibility with the community at large, we need to ensure that those sub-standard are eliminated. I'm not entirely sure through what process Portals may be deleted, but it seems clear to me that some must meet that end. Thoughts? --Cyberjunkie | Talk 16:30, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

The following is a list of some Portals that I deemed sub-standard, whether because of formatting issues or because they are incomplete or inappropriate. I mean no offence to their creators and/or maintainers. There are others not listed that need work, also. Those bolded have been removed from {{portals}}.

I realise I have faulted in my expression. I have been using the term "sub-standard" incorrectly: this would imply we have a standard; we do not, and this is perhaps a problem. Another is that there remains confusion between the terms "Wikiportal" and "Portal"; we need a resolute definition to work by so we can determine what is and isn't a portal. I don't think we should allow categories to pass themselves off a portals, as with Category:Mathematics. And portals should be obligated to feature the {{portal}} template. I hope these points generate discussion.--Cyberjunkie | Talk 08:31, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree. "Sub-standard" portals need to be taken care of. My suggestion would be to talk to the user(s) who have created the portals or are the main contributer. If they have no intention of continuing improvements then the portal should be listed on Wikipedia:Miscellaneous deletion and susequently deleted. If the portal is on the subject that will likely be used if done corectly (such as Film), perhaps it can be changed into static page with any pertinant links. - Trevor MacInnis(Talk | Contribs) 21:38, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
We probably do need to set a standard. What happens to WikiProjects for example if they are unmaintained or undeveloped or inactive? Perhaps the same could be applied here? --Celestianpower hablamé 21:42, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
A version of the {{inactive}} template maybe? Or put a version of {{expansion}} or some other cleanup template. Is this the kind of thing that needs a Wikiproject of its own for people to dedicate themselves to? - Trevor MacInnis(Talk | Contribs) 22:19, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
About inactive portals, if they are important subject which deserve a portal (Tech for example) maybe they can be switched over to a format like Portal:Cricket or Portal:Politics. These two portals are not very editor friendly, but look beautiful as a portla for readers. - Trevor MacInnis(Talk | Contribs) 14:56, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
I have listed a few WikiProjects for deletion in the past, ones which were barely sketched out beyond the template, and in one instance at least just a template. Some were deleted, some were kept, although there was a low voting turnout it is fair to say. I have recently listed Portal:Future Prospects at Wikipedia:Miscellaneous deletion, consensus so far on that is to delete. However, I agree with Trevor MacInnis that with potentially useful portals we should make them as reader friendly as possible. I will volunteer to help out to that effect. Steve block talk 15:52, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps if someone wrote a template to use on the inactive/crappy portals. Something along the lines of {{box portal skeleton}} but using the code from Politics or Cricket portal, call it {{static portal}} maybe. I'll give it a try tommorow if someone would mail the creators/maintainers of the above mentioned portals to see if we need to apply it to their portals, or if they will do it. - Trevor MacInnis(Talk | Contribs) 04:12, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Just briefly, I've created {{portaltalk}} in effort to centralise discussion and create commonality between portals. It's essentially an equivalent to a WikiProject "project notice". Please feel free to work on the wording, and to place them on Portal talk pages. I'm working on some other things also, but have run out of time. I agree the above proposals for "status tags": we proably need "under construction", "inactive/unmaintained/static", "help requested" or some such. In that sense, they'll probably work as stubs. Portal:Zelda has been nominated for deletion.--Cyberjunkie | Talk 06:09, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

I'd like to see all portals following the example of Portal:Cricket or Portal:Politics. However, that would fix only part of the problem, which is the format and design. The 2 other main problems are mainly maintenance/update and of course the creation of nonesense portals as Portal:Zelda.
There is only one solution to deal with the portals like Portal:Zelda; presenting them to vote for deletion. For the maintenance part, the issue is a bit complicated. Usually, the problem is the lack of time for the creator and the maintainer. I've created 2 portals so far; Portal:Morocco and Portal:Spain. Morroco looks fine but for Spain, I really need assistance. What I did is that put the template portal on the main article Spain and added a memo in its talk page to ask for assistance. It seems not working. What I suggest is to create a template of assistance added at the top of the talk page of the main article or at top of section where the memo was edited. Cheers -- Svest 12:17, 28 September 2005 (UTC)  Wiki me up&#153;

Criteria for portals?

I've stated here before my belief that we are getting many portals constructed which are dedicated to very narrow topic areas, such as Doctor Who, Ancient Germanic Culture, Stargate, Eastern Christianity and others. Should we try to set out some kind of criteria for what portals should be? I believe they should be created for high-level topic areas, and the ones I've listed above are too specific. Or, are people theoretically happy for a portal to be created on any topic, no matter how narrow? Worldtraveller 16:51, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

I would say Wikicities is a good example here. If the suject is broad enough for a wikicity, and does not fit under other portals, then it should go ahead. --Celestianpower hablamé 17:09, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
I think it would be useful to have some kind of in-house criteria. I don't know anything about wikicities and what kind of subjects they allow. Worldtraveller 17:24, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
The following are the wikicities guidelines:
Wikis must have a large potential audience, and be likely to attract enough editors to maintain the wiki over a long period of time. Personal wikis, wikis for small groups, or individual schools are not generally permitted. See the university and schools policy. If your proposal is too narrow in scope, you will be advised to broaden it and add your idea as a sub-section of a larger Wikicity. Although some fair use material may be included in wikis, Wikicities aims to be a repository of free content, so any wiki which would be primarily made up of fair use material rather than GFDL material is not permitted. For example, wikis which aim to collect lyrics or other copyrighted works are not allowed. You may not request a Wikicity if you are banned on any other wiki.
Check your idea is not already covered by an existing Wikicity. Check your idea could not become part of an existing Wikimedia project (http://www.wikimedia.org). Check which other proposals were rejected for an idea of what not to request.
We could make our criteria the following:
  • It must be of a broad enough subject to attract editors to it and for readers to find it benificial.
  • It must not totally or partially duplicate another portal.
  • Portals that do not meet either of these criteria are subject to deletion immediately at WP:MD.
Sound any good? A bit wishy-washy really I suppose. --Celestianpower hablamé 17:39, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
No, I like that, simple but gets the point across. Any other thoughts? I think we should add this to the portals page. Worldtraveller 08:22, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
Not really any other suggestions and I think, as a start, these should go on the main page. Where? A new section? Top of the page? Worked into the prose? --Celestianpower hablamé 17:13, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

I think we have to be more specific. duplicating, beneficial are still subjective and surely not helping. -- Svest 18:35, 14 October 2005 (UTC)  Wiki me up&#153;

That's what I thought. How could we make it more precise do we think? --Celestianpower hablamé 20:14, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Suggestions

First suggestion is to elect a committee of wikipedians managing the portals.

  • Before any portal is created, the topic of the portal should be presented to the committe for vote. The vote should be based on a set of critereas. (i.e. see below)
  • The committee decides the creation of the portal.

Criteria

The best thing to do is . Examples (please feel free to add or trim stuff to and from the list/skeleton):

Allowed

  • Only portals that have an academic background are allowed. (i.e. Sciences, Religions, Literature, Society, Sports, Photography, Music, Theatre, Cinema, Art, Painting, Politics, Economics, Finance, Sociology, Egyptology, Media, Poetry, Journalism, etc..)
  • The topic should be general enough. (i.e. Software engineering instead of .NET and Java separately)
  • Portals about countries and major cities are allowed. (i.e. cities that have more than 5 million inhabitants)

Not allowed

  • Portals about characters are not allowed. Individual and breakout articles are considered to be enough to cover them in depth. (i.e. Doctor Who, Pokemon, James Bond, The Simpsons...They should belong to Fiction portal)
  • Portals about soaps, series, books are not allowed. (Stargate, Star Wars, Oz, etc... They should belong to Cinema, Fiction, Literature portals) Individual and breakout articles are considered to be enough to cover them in depth.
  • Portals about brands, companies, etc... are not allowed.
  • Portals about phenomenons are not allowed. (i.e. Earthquakes should belong to Geology portal) -- Svest 21:25, 14 October 2005 (UTC)  Wiki me up&#153;
I agree with the "allowed section" (save the prohibition on cities with under 5 million people). In the "not allowed" section, I agree with only the last two points. The first two ("characters" and "series") are too restrictive I think, though I could be convinced otherwise. It would be better if such portals could be folded into broader, subject-specific portals such as "anime" or "science fiction". But I'm worried that if we close down existing and maintained portals we might alienate entire sections of the Wikipedia community. The last thing I want is for yet another fork (read: split from Wikipedia).
As for the committee thing, I'm not opposed. But I wouldn't want such a thing to have any overbearing authority. More, something like an "Advisory Committee" would be appropriate. But then, if we can manage to attract more dedicated editors to portals, we mightn't need one. I think we need to organise more like Wikipedia:WikiProject.--Cyberjunkie | Talk 06:10, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
I like the general principles of these criteria (criterion is singular) but I share the fears of CyberJunkie in that what to do about the existing ones. Many of the un-allowed ones under these guidelines are well-maintained and useful. Take Star Wars for example. There are literally billions of Star Wars articles/categories/projects ...etc... here on Wikipedia (okay, the portal isn't too hot but there you go) and there needs to be some place for readers to go to find all of this (or relevant info for their needs). Think about the relative numbers of people coming to Wikipedia wanting to find out about the different subjects. There will be any more looking for popular culture than the Phillippines for example. Just my two pennies. --Celestianpower hablamé 07:51, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Geographical portals

I am wondering why we should have country and city portals at all. City portals seem way too specific to me, and country portals express systemic bias unless there is one created and maintained for every single country. In addition, they can very easily become strongly POV, because those who maintain them will inevitably be from, or have some strong connection with, the country concerned. Continents seem ideal for portals, countries much less so to me. Worldtraveller 02:40, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

There are only 3 cities with their own Wikiportals - namely New York, London and Bucharest. NYC is one of the four global cities and there is such a wealth of information about it that it deserves its own portal in order to streamline access to NYC specific articles. The NYC portal has been around for a while I believe. However, London is a even more multicultural, and is the most referenced city in all of Wikipedia. All of the above applies equally, if not more, for London as it does for NYC. Hence why I created the London portal yesterday. As for Bucharest, it is not a global city, it is not a major city, and its portal is not half as good as our London one, and ours was made in one day.
Long story short, city portals are necessary for major, major cities that have, as a crude divisor, over 10,000 wikilinks in English. Obviously that is quite crude, but it works. And the same principle should apply to anything - perhaps not at that figure, but that principle. See Wikipedia:Most referenced articles for figures.
Deano 13:25, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

MORE Sub-Standard Portals

I just removed Portal:Tel-Aviv from {{Template:portals}} because it is non-existent and shouldn't exist generally. There is not enough information about a city such as Tel Aviv, or Bucharest for that matter (see Portal:Bucharest) to justify having a portal for it. Or at least to justify having the portal come under the {{Template:portals}} list.

The {{Template:portals}} list should be kept ONLY for portals that satisfy set criteria and quality, and have reasonable justification for their existence on the list. If people want to create pointless portals then it doesn't really matter, so long as they don't claim them to be good enough to be on the {{Template:portals}} list.

My 2 pennies. Deano 16:42, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

I think you're right - it's probably time we went through every portal in the portal namespace and moved those of low quality back to Wikipedia:Wikiportal space to let them die or develop, jguk 17:23, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Okay well based on the fact that all portals should be in WP:P regardless of their status/quality, I'm going to act unilaterally and just remove the crap ones from the {{portals}} namespace template. Any objections... well I guess we'll have to sort that out later, because I'm going to do it now. Crap portals on the namespace dilutes the impression of the good ones. Deano 17:54, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Deano - you're behind the times - there is a special namespace for reader-oriented portals. That's why the talk page of the Cricket portal, for example, is at Portal talk:Cricket not [[Talk:Portal:Cricket]]. The bad ones that aren't particularly useful for readers shouldn't be in the portal namespace, but the good ones should remain, jguk 19:22, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
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