Talk:Space opera in Scientology

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Title

Excellent article! The title may need some work ... it sounds silly. It comes from a POV that this is remarkable. How does "Space Opera in Scientology doctrine" sound to Scientologists? Is "Opera" normally capitalised? - David Gerard 6 July 2005 22:47 (UTC)

Yes, I'll go along with that... "Opera" shouldn't be capitalised; Hubbard doesn't use it as a proper noun, more as a descriptive noun. -- ChrisO 6 July 2005 23:24 (UTC)
Excellent article, ChrisO! The title doesn't bother me a bit. Hubbard certainly used the term often and freely, so I think it's an appropriate, natural title. Calicocat 6 July 2005 23:32 (UTC)
I meant the original title, "Space aliens in Scientology doctrine". "Space opera" is indeed a term Hubbard used a lot - David Gerard 8 July 2005 09:55 (UTC)

Featured Article push

Nice one. I think we can get this up to FAC status in a week if we try hard. Maybe run it past Peer Review as well - David Gerard 7 July 2005 00:51 (UTC)

Chris, this version of the article is even better - a featured article standard already. VWD :-) --NicholasTurnbull 7 July 2005 00:54 (UTC)

I've just nominated it for Wikipedia:Peer review. Let's see what the horrified masses make of it - David Gerard 8 July 2005 09:53 (UTC)

Good overview, though not as outrageously insane as Xenu (I was pulling my hair when I was reading that). I have two small comments to make: Do you think Space opera in Scientology would be a more concise title? Also, about the sentence beginning with, "Many science-fictional references...": Wouldn't Hubbard's view of these be more like similarities or parallels than references? CanadianCaesar 22:46, 10 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe. I've made your title a redirect, fwiw. You can of course make that change yourself :-) - David Gerard 15:05, 11 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I know, but I know nothing of Scientology, or the terms they use. CanadianCaesar 01:31, 12 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Count yourself lucky. (/me sporks own brain out) - David Gerard 10:48, 12 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Cross your fingers. I've nominated it for the front page. -- Anonymous

Intro

I've moved a general para on space opera from Xenu to the intro. Could do with some untangling, though - David Gerard 15:07, 11 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Consider it untangled. :-) -- ChrisO 22:15, 11 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Article title

Would Space opera (Scientology) be a better title? Note that Category:Scientology beliefs and practices already includes several examples of common words with "(Scientology)" added to point out that we're talking about the Scientology term - David Gerard 10:48, 12 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Peer review suggestions

[below was content of Wikipedia:Peer review/Space opera in Scientology doctrine as at 21:51, 18 July 2005 (UTC)]

A new article started by User:ChrisO, and already a masterpiece of understatement. Xenu (already a feature) is just the start of it. I'll probably go through housekeeping (detailed list of references at the end, etc.), but we're very interested in hearing of larger structural problems anyone can see. - David Gerard 8 July 2005 09:49 (UTC)

  • Buhhh... literally science-fictology. Almost like reading the old E. E. "Doc" Smith books. What can I say, it's entertaining and slightly amusing to read, but also a little sad. The trillion trillion years bit threw me a tad. Are those dates for real? Structurally it looks fine to me. :) — RJH 8 July 2005 15:49 (UTC)
    • Yes, those dates are real. Scientology believes that the universe has moved in cycles, existing for much longer than the 8 to 20 billion years proposed by scientists; while this is often hypothesized by theoreticians in the field of astronomy (Big Bang to Big Crunch to Big Bang again?), Scientologists apparently accept it as a hard-and-fast tenet of their faith. - Anonymous, 2.24 pm MST 15 July 2005
  • I'm glad to see all of the references, because I'd have a hard time believing anyone proposed this stuff was true otherwise. Some minor issues:
  • If I remember the relevant parts of Wikipedia's Manual of Style, quotations should not appear in italics, unless the words are italicized in the original.
  • The way Hubbard used "Space opera" in Scientology needs elaborating on -- including the fact that while this formed part of his secret Advanced Teachings, I believe he also used this as the plot for a movie script he tried to sell.
  • (Less seriously) Has anyone ever commented on the similarity between the implanting of "engrams" in the thetas & the premise behind Mystery Science Theater 3000? (The chief host is the unwilling subject of a mad scientist, who is subjected to endless exposure to a series of bad B-movies to determine how these can drive the subject mad, & use this information to make himself ruler of the world.) -- llywrch 8 July 2005 20:54 (UTC)
"unconscious recollection of events" ... "unconscious recollection of events" It's jarring to read the same four words again after only 150 words of space in between. Could one set be rephrased? lots of issues | leave me a message 22:46, 14 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Ooh crikey, that one's my fault. Fixed - David Gerard 21:44, 18 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I'm nominating this one for FAC now. Peer Review has been most helpful. Thank you! - David Gerard 21:49, 18 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Featured Article comments

[below was content of Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Space opera in Scientology doctrine as at 21:40, 25 July 2005 (UTC)]

Another masterpiece of understatement from ChrisO (who wrote about half of Xenu). It's a fairly obscure subject ... but Xenu, which one FAC objection thought would be "too obscure", is now enormously popular in the blogosphere [1] [2] and is quoted in most of the recent press about Tom Cruise's proselytising behaviour (unattributed, but the phrasings are pretty distinctive). I think this has potential for enormous popularity. So it's a good thing it's well-written and has its references, isn't it. It went through peer review just recently, which helped a lot. I now open it to you to tell us what shrubberies (nice ones, mind you) it needs to be a feature. We've just started WikiProject Scientology too, by the way, so expect more of these - David Gerard 22:09, 18 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support. Excellent, comprehensive, well-referenced, the mechanical gorilla is a high point. Sadly, there is only one really good illustration—the DC-8—but that problem is inherent in the subject, no doubt. Great stuff! Bishonen | talk 23:42, 18 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, would do well with better illustrations, but it is indeed comprehensive and well referenced. Phoenix2 23:46, July 18, 2005 (UTC)
  • Object. The image Image:Fangio moss monza.jpg is claimed as fair use, but I don't think it can be used in the article under fair use. --Carnildo 17:53, 19 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • It was probably fair use in the original article it was uploaded for, but yeah, it's been removed now. Images were a particularly difficult one for this article (though the gorilla is a good photo, and the Himalayas shot is spectacular - click on the image and check it out!) - suggestions are most welcomed - David Gerard 12:46, 20 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Great work. The only thing I can say is really? You've really got all those sources and they really say all that? It all more or less falls in the category of the Fishman affidavits stuff I have read, so I believe you, but this stuff is still really hard to believe that people would really buy into it. Specifically the intro could use some citations, especially for this "It forms a major element of the beliefs of Scientology" and the next sentence. That may be really obvious to you, but it seems a central point in the article. Keep up the good work. - Taxman Talk 18:38, July 19, 2005 (UTC)
  • Support. Agree with Taxman. Anville 02:02, 20 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Support, although the article itself is good, sections are of good size, there are too few pictures coming with the article. Deryck C. 09:18, 20 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Suport, for all the reasons listed above. WegianWarrior 09:37, 20 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Suport. pamri 03:50, July 23, 2005 (UTC)
  • comment Could audio pronunciations be added? lots of issues | leave me a message 23:56, 23 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • weak object. Some of this is good stuff, but some of the sections (e.g. most of the "goals") are so short that they should be combined, expanded, or removed altogether. Right now, some of them have virtually no useful information. Incidentally, it should be explained what a "goal" is. Dave (talk) 15:27, July 24, 2005 (UTC)
    • I don't recommend combining the goals and incidents - the article effectively provides a catalogue of the principal such events that Hubbard describes. However, I agree with your point about explaining what the goals are, and I've done this now. -- ChrisO 20:58, 24 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Clarify the goals (FA request)

Just after the FA request was closed, Dave above added:

  • Could you add a descriptions of the confusion the goals allegedly cause? For example, if I'm supposed ""To End", "To be Dead", "To be Asleep", "To be Solid", "To be Sexual" and so on," what problems would that cause in me today? Why is it important to "clear" all of these? If this is added, I think I'll be ready to support. Dave (talk) 14:00, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

- David Gerard 14:53, 27 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Image:Xenu space plane.jpg

Image is on the Main page but doesn't show on the Article page. hydnjo talk 02:29, 10 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

There was a problem with the image wiki-format. I have corrected it. Autopilots 02:46, September 10, 2005 (UTC)

Now it's on the article page and not the main page. RSpeer 06:20, September 10, 2005 (UTC)

User:Raul654 believes that there is a problem with the image servers. Hopefully, it will be resolved soon. Autopilots 06:48, September 10, 2005 (UTC)

After my thoughtless deletion which was reverted the image still does not appear (at least for me) either on the article page or on the main page. Lucifer(sc) 15:39, 10 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Keep reloading the page until it does :-) I've left an HTML comment in the source for the next person who think's it's just a dead image ... - David Gerard 20:07, 10 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Weird.

Gotta say, this is too strange for even the kookiest kook. - 211.30.181.143 02:39, 10 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Strange, yes. Keep in mind that the clams used to have to cough up about half a million bucks to get to the part where elron sprung this on 'em. Back when they first decided to RMGROUP alt.religion.scientology, I'm sure they weren't expecting that everybody in the world would be able to find out all about this pile of hogwash.
I'm not giving you support, I was just trying to draw attention to the image; now you'll deleted this whole page????207.214.244.139 07:59, 10 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

If Scientology wasn't such a pernicious cult, and the logic behind the stories (or would they be myths since it's ostensibly religious) wasn't so silly and nonsensical, I'd say they have one of the most interesting and coolest religious histories of any other religion. Still it's sad that people actually spend their life savings (I heard it's the $500k level this is taught at?) to hear stories they could go pick up at a book store for $10, and if it makes the story more fun to actually believe it's true, just use L.R. Hubbard's reasoning: I mean it's much easier and makes just as much sense to say that a good non-scientology affiliated $10 Space Opera genre book is an unconcious manifestation of true events than having to hear Hubbard's 3rd rate sci-fi style story for $500k and believing it's true. Maybe it's just easier to believe in something you invested half a million dollars in. --Brentt 06:42, 28 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

What a delightful article

I am so glad this article was featured. I might have missed it otherwise. It shows just how impressive the unvarnished facts can be -- much more effective than any argument against them. And, even more important, it shows how the beliefs of any religion look to a non-believer. Compare the beliefs of Scientology, for example, to the story about the big boat with all the animals in it.

Yeah, they're both silly myths, but promulgators of the flood myth have pretty much left their vicious adolescent history behind them a couple of centuries ago. These days, you only occasionally hear about the Xtians offing someone in an exorrcism when they should have consulted a competent psychiatrist instead.
The easiest way to discourage someone interested in scientology from getting into it is to get a hold of their advanced teachings and showing them what kind of kookiness they are actually getting into. The webmaster of skepdic.com made an intersting observation about these sorts of things, not an exact quote but the idea was this: at first these kinds of cults, or religions, or organizations, or whatever you want to call them, get people intersted by presenting knowledge, which most people who have a secondary education, and paid attention, learned as basic psychology and philosophy, as the religion's own ideas. So people are at first fascinated by these "insights" and think there must be something to the religion. When they get to the higher levels it makes it easier to swallow since a trust as already been established in the mosr mundane lower levels.
They also use another intersting tactic: I took the so called "IQ" test (which it is not really)at the CoS headquarters in Hollywood once. (I stayed the night with a friend who happened to live down the street and we were bored in the morning.) The questions they ask are full of Scientology jargon that nobody who hasn't taken the courses could expect to know ("wax enthusiastic" is one of the most often used ones).Inevitably anyone not already initiated into Scientology is going to be left with a lot of "room for improvement." People who don't know it's a real IQ test will think they are stupid because they think it's a real IQ test, so they take the courses, thier supposed "IQ" score improves and then they think Scientology is making them smarter, when really the courses just made the familiar with the jargon.
--Brentt 07:05, 28 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Oh yeah!

Oh yeah, I fixed it! Now who's the man? I can't hear you, WHO IS THE MAN?! Thank you.

cool-RR.

Excellent article

This article is a shining example of NPOV and is about as good as an article could get. Much thanks to the writers. Paul 19:50, 10 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This article is one of the funniest things I ever read. Enough so I was pretty confident it was a joke at first. I'm still uncertain that it really isn't a joke, but I imagine when any belief is relatively new it looks peculiar. I know the Druze's actual beliefs seemed very weird to early Muslims. Anyway I just hope you guys don't get sued:)--T. Anthony 10:01, 18 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Great Article- I’d like more on the church’s financial structure.

I don’t know if it’s openly known but it would be great to have an article about how the money flows in the church of scientology. To answer questions along this line:

  1. Is there a central board of directors? If so who are they and what exactly do they do.
  2. I there a single individual on top or a family? Who?
  3. From what I understand the church has assets and investments worth in billions of dollars. Where or how is the money invested?
  4. With that kind of money there must be major financial planning. Who is in charge and how is it distributed thought out the organization?
  5. Does the money stay at the colleted church or is it centralized at a main location?
  6. Do they have collection goals? What things require members to pay and how much do they cost?
  7. As I understand there is a larger number of members on the payroll, who, why, and how much?

I am guessing with the amount of money they deal with it should not be to difficult to find out investments, who the people involved at the upper level are. Basically who is on top of scientology, a group of individuals? A family? A single person? Who are they and a little bit about them.

I'm assuming you've had a look at the articles on Scientology, Church of Scientology, Scientology controversy, and some of the others in Wikipedia's Scientology category. Those articles have some information about the church's finances and powerful figures such as David Miscavige. If you feel they're lacking in the information you're looking for it might be a good idea to bring it up on the talk pages of those particular articles, as this one concerns the role of space opera and isn't really the place for detail on some of the things you mention. Having said that, the people who work on our Scientology articles are bound to come across your comment here. — Trilobite 23:04, 10 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
That's actually a fantastic idea for an article. Hmm ... - David Gerard 01:19, 11 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The Helatrobus Implants - misplaced comment?

This sentence is in the Scientology and science fiction section:

"Many science-fictional references can be found in Hubbard's Scientology-related works. Scientologists could find themselves living in "robot bodies" in past lives, being killed by "zap guns", living aboard spaceships or flying "space wagons" capable of travelling "a trillion light years per day". ("The Helatrobus Implants") "

What is the parenthetical reference at the end supposed to mean? It seems like it might be an orphan from some past edit, as it doesn't seem to connect at all to either the sentence before or after, nor does it look like a citation... . Blurble 15:34, 12 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It's a reference to the lecture in which those things are described by Hubbard. -- ChrisO 19:08, 12 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
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