Wikipedia:Requests for comment/AfD

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Acetic Acid (talk | contribs) at 03:24, 28 September 2005 (→Outside view by [[User:Redwolf24|Redwolf24]]: I concur.). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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In order to remain listed at Wikipedia:Requests for comment, at least two people need to show that they tried to resolve a dispute with this user and have failed. This must involve the same dispute with a single user, not different disputes or multiple users. The persons complaining must provide evidence of their efforts, and each of them must certify it by signing this page with ~~~~. If this does not happen within 48 hours of the creation of this dispute page (which was: 06:47, 25 September 2005 (UTC)), the page will be deleted. The current date and time is: 22:29, 19 October 2024 (UTC).

Statement of the dispute

This is a summary written by users who dispute this user's conduct. Users signing other sections ("Response" or "Outside views") should not edit the "Statement of the dispute" section.

Description

{Add summary here, but you must use the section below to certify or endorse it. Users who edit or endorse this summary should not edit the other summaries.}

  • Members of the meta:Association of Inclusionist Wikipedians and meta:Association of Deletionist Wikipedians (and local chapters, where they exist) consistantly vote to keep or delete articles list on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion without giving reasons other than terse abbreviations (eg. "nn, d."), blanket claims of why their vote is justified (eg. "all schools are notable", "cruft"), and continually brag about the achievements of these "organisations" (eg. "we are winning the fight againsts school deletion"). This is not just about schools, but the unworkability of AfD in general.

Evidence of disputed behavior

(Provide diffs. Links to entire articles aren't helpful unless the editor created the entire article. Edit histories also aren't helpful as they change as new edits are performed.)

  1. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Crescent Park Elementary School
  2. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cromer high]
  3. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hialeah Gardens Elementary School
  4. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ada Merrit Elementary School
  5. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Air Base Elementary School
  6. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Amelia Earhart Elementary School
  7. Many more...

Applicable policies

{list the policies that apply to the disputed conduct}

  1. WP:POINT

Evidence of trying and failing to resolve the dispute

(provide diffs and links)

  1. Again, pick just about any AfD.

Users certifying the basis for this dispute

(sign with ~~~~)

  1. Alphax τεχ 06:47, 25 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Phroziac(talk) 01:24, 28 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Other users who endorse this summary

(sign with ~~~~)

  1. Zach (Sound Off) 07:11, 25 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Response by inclusionists

This is a summary written by the user whose conduct is disputed, or by other users who think that the dispute is unjustified and that the above summary is biased or incomplete. Users signing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" and "Outside Views") should not edit the "Response" section.

I don't disrupt AFD. Deletionists are mean people, who historically burned books. I believe in pooling the sum total of human knowledge for the benefit of mankind. They believe in biting nubes and generally annoying Daniel C. Boyer. People, schools, and pokefolk are notable. 'Nuff said.

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):

  1. Sam Spade 21:36, 26 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Nicodemus75 21:37, 26 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Outside view by Redwolf24

This is a summary written by users not directly involved with the dispute but who would like to add an outside view of the dispute. Users editing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" and "Response") should not edit the "Outside Views" section, except to endorse an outside view.

This RfC seems frivolous and I have no idea what its meant to accomplish, although I do respect Alphax immensely. Redwolf24 (talk) 07:11, 25 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):

  1. Redwolf24 (talk) 07:11, 25 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Soltak | Talk 18:39, 25 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  3. sɪzlæk [ +t, +c, +m ] 05:25, 26 September 2005 (UTC) I think phrasing the tiresome inclusionist vs. deletionist debate as a "user RfC" is not the best way to deal with this issue. We shouldn't send the message that people in either camp deserve what may seem like a personal RfC filed against them merely because of their stance on this issue.[reply]
  4. Although I am non-partisan in the inclusionist vs. deletionist vs. mergist debate, I see no purpose to this. I will change my mind if given the chance to ask at least one editor, "Are you, or have you ever been, a member of the Association of Inclusionist Wikipedians, the Association of Deletionist Wikipedians, or the Association of Mergist Wikipedians?" — Phil Welch 05:56, 26 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Nicodemus75 15:20, 26 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Christopher Parham (talk) 22:01, 26 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  7. Rob Church Talk 01:24, 28 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  8. Acetic'Acid 03:24, 28 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Outside view by McClenon

This RfC does look frivolous. However, on thinking, it does illustrate two issues. First, as a minor point, this is not really a user conduct RfC. It is not an article RfC. SlimVirgin has suggested that there should be something called an issue RfC. This really should be one.

Second, it illustrates a philosophical issue about what should be the scope of an electronic encyclopedia. I think that the inclusionists and deletionists are not really disrupting Wikipedia to make points, but are arguing over philosophy. That discussion is contentious because it illustrates the need to find consensus-based guidelines on what is and is not notable. Many of the AfDs that are cited are descriptions of schools. The underlying issue is the lack of consensus as to when schools should be included and when they should be deleted.

The way to avoid having every school AfD appear to be a war between inclusionists and deletionists will be to establish guidelines on when schools should be included. The same statement also applies to any other category of article. The certifier of this RfC has a valid point that AfDs are contentious, and that guidelines are needed to establish deletion or inclusion criteria. Robert McClenon 14:47, 25 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):

  1. "For my usual reasons." Idont Havaname 17:38, 25 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Soltak | Talk 18:40, 25 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  3. This RfC calls attention to problems with both RfC and AfD. - A Man In Black (Talk | Contribs) 08:46, 26 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  4. This RfC is essentially an attack on the philosophical views of both deletionists and inclusionists who are doing nothing more than expressing their philosophical view on whether or not articles should be included or deleted on WP. Most of this RfC is blatantly specious, as the vast majority of the "members" of AIW and ADW are not voters on any of the example AfDs listed in this RfC. To my knowledge, there are no "local chapters". Because an editor holds the philosophical view that "all schools are inherently notable" this makes him neither disruptive nor any different from an editor that holds the philosphical view that "all countries are inherently notable". The votes seen on AfD for schools (which are the only examples listed in this RfC) are a reflection of a consistently applied philosophy.--Nicodemus75 15:28, 26 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  5. This RFC doesn't look frivolous, and isn't. However, I agree substantively with the rest of Robert's comments -- the solution to the schools issue (or any other issue so substantial that it leads to this sort of misbehavior among otherwise well-behaved editors!) needs to be the formulation of a balanced consensus policy. Balance meands that both sides need to be willing to give in a little, to reach a consensus that everyone can live with. To start with, they need to give up their dismissive and petty attitudes towards each other. For what it's worth, I don't think this is a problem with AfD -- it's a problem with people who have decided to bicker instead of seeking agreement. --FOo 18:40, 26 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Outside view by Zscout370

I highly suspect this is being used with the overall reform of WP:AFD. Zach (Sound Off) 07:12, 25 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Outside view by User:Zoe|(talk)

I would like to see this expanded to include everybody whose arguments for Keep or Delete on school articles only point to WP:SCH without expressing their own personal opinions. User:Zoe|(talk) 19:44, 25 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • Agreed. I would like to add them, along with fully listed the members of the AIW and ADW. 15:20, 26 September 2005 (UTC) 14:46, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Outside view by gkhan

For full discosure: When it comes to schools, I am a rabid deletionist. High schools? Come on....

The ultimate solution: create a guideline for schools similar to WP:MUSIC that would be clear and fair enough so that most people could agree with it. Actually the ultimate solution would be that we would all live in paradise, there would be no hunger, no wars, and everyone would own puppies. That is about as likely as that there ever is going to be a guideline on schools most users can agree with.

In the mean time, people need to have respect for the lack of consensus. We don't need consensus on inclusion of articles, but we do need it for deletion of them. That is how it works, that is how it has always worked. This means that the "deletionists" need to respect that the articles are going to be in the 'pedia!

So this is my comment: Stop bickering! Get the bile out of the discussion! Unless Jimbo dictates policy (which he never do in these kind of cases), it is up to us to set it. If there can't be a consensus for deleting schools, they stay in! That is how wikipedia works.

So again: Stop this mindless bickering! That goes for both sides

gkhan 06:16, 26 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):

  1. Christopher Parham (talk) 22:00, 26 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

All signed comments and talk not related to a vote or endorsement, should be directed to this page's discussion page. Discussion should not be added below. Discussion should be posted on the talk page. Threaded replies to another user's vote, endorsement, evidence, response, or comment should be posted to the talk page.

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