Talk:Michael Servetus

This page still needs a good deal of cleanup/corrections/wikification. I'll work on it as time allows, but if anyone wants to beat me to it they're more than welcome to.

The latter part is largely narrative. And maybe plagiarized. I would only request that the mention of importance to modern Unitarians be preserved. --Tydaj 03:41, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Also, I think we're going to have to find some attributions for those opening quotes, or remove them entirely. Similarly, the article has some small NPOV problems that need to be addressed. - Neckro 07:16, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

'Small' NPOV problems? It seemed like a good portion of the article sites Michael Servetus Humanist and Martyr, which from its title doesn't sound like a very neutral book. The article dwells on the horrors of Servetus's death using graphic terms, and no effort is made to give the Calvinist side of the situation. This leaves me wondering why Calvin wanted Servetus dead, and what was really going on in 16th century Geneva. These questions show me that there is more going on here than the article admits. -- OracleofTroy

I hope my current revision is better. I didn't do much research, so I didn't add too much new information. I got rid of the "Passion of Servetus" paragraph. I tried to present some info from a Calvanist POV using the article below, but I found it hard to get past the authors extreme bias. It seems that Servetus' execution was out of principle, but I can't really proove this from the little info I've got. It's very difficult to find a resource without significant bias on one side or the other. --Tydaj 02:52, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It seems quite improved since last I looked at it. I think it is still a bit POV, but improving greatly and getting harder to find anything concrete to take issue with. -- OracleofTroy 02:35, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

I tried to elaborate Calvin's view in light of the times and his actual involvement. I even put in a couple sources that seem basically positive on Calvin. I'm worried now though that I've went too far the other way. Which is slightly amusing in a personal way. See even though I tried to list the negatives of Servetus and defenses of Calvin that's mostly out of a sense of fairness. On a personal level I do consider Servetus to basically be a martyr, I traditionally did blame Calvin, and I have a basically negative view of Calvin in general. However researching it did make me re-evaluate my opinion on Calvin's involvement which does seem to be less than I had believed. Although I still prefer Servetus to him and I wish Servetus was as well known as Giordani Bruno.--T. Anthony 03:00, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Meaning of 'immolation'

The word 'immolation' does not mean burning. It simply means to sacrifice.

My bad. I think I was tryin to be a bit too fancy. Thanks. :) neckro 01:45, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Well, it often carries the connotation of burning. --Tydaj 03:37, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I agree that this page is very biased in favor of Servetus; much of the article is quoted verbatim from books containing half-truths, misstatements, such as calling Calvin the head of a "dictatorial regime" when he never served a public office, and unnecessary editorializing, e.g. describing execution as "in accordance with the common practice of the day, unfortunately" (emphasis added). Anti-Servetus arguments are reduced to external links and dismissed as mere "Apologetic[s]". This POV must be given a chance to defend itself equally to maintain neutrality. I am therefore adding the POV badge to the article. --Teslacoil 03:50, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Calvin was a leading political figure in Geneva at the time though, wasn't he? That's a point everything I found agreed on.--T. Anthony 12:41, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

I removed the "unfortunately" (before I reread this). It seems to me that the statement was already qualifing enough. It was also an opinion. --Tydaj 02:58, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Yeah I agree too. I'm a Calvinist so any chance to diss Servetus might seem to be terribly biased... however I do think the writing needs to be improved to be more NPOV. --One Salient Oversight 07:48, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

As a UU, I too am too worried about bias to edit it. --Tydaj 03:34, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Or maybe not :p --Tydaj 02:52, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The Calvinist side is given in the article on Calvin, is it not?? After all, Calvin did have a rather effective way of silencing the man, didn't he?

For the record, I'd like to give a brief explanation of the changes and additions that I did on the Servetus page. The theology was confusing, since there was no explanation of why the Son was not eternal in S.'s view. I also moved the theology section after the first books, since as it was, it seemed that S. was already developing his theology in Toulouse; however, this is unlikely, but he did get involved in Protestant activities, because his name appears in a list of "suspect students" that should be watched by authorities. Most probably S. began to develop his theological ideas during his trip with the imperial court and particularly after the crowning ceremony in Bologne, where he was outraged by the pomp of the Papal delegation, and actually he went next year to discuss with Oecolampadius, therefore he had already reached some conclusions and felt ready to debate them. Another important change was that the Jews had already been expelled from Spain, and the Muslims had lost the war and were marginalized and on the verge of expulsion themselves, therefore Servetus could not be developing a theology "for the main religious minorities in Spain", as one of them was already banned and severely persecuted, and the other was defeated and marginal. Finally, it was important to remark that the discovery of pulmonary circulation was totally unnoticed because most copies of the book were burned, not because of reliability (I added that it was the first mention of it "in the West" because apparently at least one Muslim physician in the late Middle Ages had already described it, and perhaps this text was circulating in Paris when Servetus studied there). --Jdemarcos 14:59, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

My mistake, apologies. I read somewhere that Spain's main religious minorities were still Jews and Muslims in his day. Also the written accusations against him at the time accused him of "Judaizing" or "Islamizing" the faith. So I figured maybe appealing to them did matter in a way, but you're right it wouldn't have.--T. Anthony 06:37, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

Remind me why exactly there is believed to be something called a "Calvinist point of view" on this issue? What could ever, in any universe, in a million lifetimes, justify the BURNING TO DEATH of a human being for his opinions? Don't answer that because I already know the answer: Nothing.--JC

Book links, a question

When linking to a book is there a conventional way to so on Wikipedia? In this article, I posted a link to a book at Amazon, but I don't really intend to promote one retailer over another. It's just a convenient link. Any suggestions? --BAW 03:55, 15 September 2005 (UTC)