Talk:Buddhism

Please place comments in the appropriate section.

Please keep comments short.
Misplaced material will be moved as needed to preserve page structure.
Long discussions may be moved to (or better, started as) talk sub-pages, with appropriate links.

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Lead

Revise/refine lead in accordance with WP:LEAD to make it comprehensive, neutral and readable.

• at this point we have decided to leave the lead section as is. we need to return later to incorporate a section about buddhist beliefs, but have agreed that the task will be easier after we have developed the page body more.

Central concepts

Evaluate the possible use of a section that summarizes important concepts common to all streams of Buddhism.

highlights of old discussions

let me suggest, in the light of the family resemblance concept, that we approach it somewhat on the following lines. We can start with the conceptual, historical & demographic intro as we've been working on. Then we make roughly the following points:

1. Nearly all Buddhists practise devotion to 1 or more Buddhas, & often other beings as well. The most popular are the historical Buddha, & the celestial Buddha Amitabha.
2. Most/nearly all believe in rebirth (strictly, reconception) ...
3. This is regarded as usually being in accordance with karma (which also influences experiences during life) ... However, many/the majority believe that those who are sufficiently advanced spiritually can determine their own & others' rebirths. In particular, many believe Amitabha will ensure his devotees are reborn in his Pure Land.
4. Buddhists believe in the importance of generosity, particularly to support monks.
5. Most Buddhists accept, at least as an ideal, a morality based on the Five Precepts: refraining from killing living beings, stealing, sexual immorality, lying & intoxicants.
6. Most Buddhists are led by an order of monks, & often nuns (tho' the latter, where they exist, are subordinate.
7. Buddhists believe in the necessity of meditation at some stage of the path, tho' most do not regard themselves as having reached that stage yet.
8. Nearly all recognize scriptures, tho' they disagree on which texts are authentic & important. Reading, study, memorization, recitation & devotion are widespread practices.
9. Some Buddhists study various doctrinal systems to provide a framework for the development of insight in meditation. Others regard conceptual thought as an obstacle to insight into reality.
10. Buddhists recognize 1 or more concepts of liberation, ususally liberation from rebirth. Some/many talk of renouncing liberation to help others spiritually.
11. All recognize the ideal of dedication to helping others spiritually, & the majority believe everyone should follow this.
12. Nearly all participate in rituals, & some regard this as very important.
13. Some believe in the practice of sexual yoga, but most disapprove.

The order here is roughly progressive. Peter jackson (talk) 10:42, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Now let me elaborate the situation as regards scriptures.

• historians 1st
  • a very few believe most of the contents of the agamas, corresponding to about 1/4 of the Pali Canon, go back to the Buddha
  • some believe the Buddha's original teachings entirely lost
  • some have produced a wide variety of intermediate theories
  • increasing numbers are agnostic
  • nobody believes the Mahayana sutras go back to the Buddha
• Theravada fundamentalists believe most of the Pali Canon goes back to the Buddha
• Mahayana fundamentalists believe:
  • most of the Vinaya, Agamas & Mahayana sutras go back to the Buddha
  • the agamas give an elementary teaching suitable, in theory, for some people who aren't ready for Mahayana
  • it is better to follow Mahayana from the start
• In practice the agamas play no role in Chinese & Japanese Buddhism, & were never even translated into Tibetan
• Vinaya is another matter. In theory, all Buddhist monks follow similar vinaya, tho' it must be remembered that the Japanese clergy aren't monks in this sense, so it doesn't apply to them.
• non-fundamentalist Buddhists believe whatever someone has told them historians believe

Peter jackson (talk) 15:21, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

For one thing, it's obvious that when "Buddhism" existed in Ashokan times it was just Buddhism. (This was before there was "Theravada" or "Mahayana" or "Vajrayana," although I am aware there were already various Buddhist "schools" or Nikayas, during Ashoka's times. But from what I know they were all the old schools from which Theravada is a descendent.) I'm not a historian, but doesn't one of the Ashokan pillars record Ashoka as paying homage to the Triple Gem: Buddha-Dharma-Sangha? Today, if you were to ask any number of practicing "Buddhists" as diverse as a Theravadin in Sri Lanka to a Pure Land follower in South Korea, what it means to pay homage to Buddha-Dhamma-Sangha, I'm sure they'll have a good idea what you're talking about. Indeed, if you read any of the Pali suttas where the Buddha or one of his disciples is teaching a lay person, most of the suttas end with said lay person paying homage to the Buddha-Dhamma-Sangha. So my point is that although the various "Buddhist" sects are quite different from one another, they're not at all historically or doctrinally independent of one another, in the same way that two completely different Indian linguistic groups are independent in the sense that they're mutually unintelligible. Therefore, the various Buddhist sects are still "speaking the same language" in that they all purport to be the authentic route to the nirvana of which the Buddha spoke. I'm not really sure about how else to demonstrate Buddhism as a single religion without merely restating the obvious.

In regards to karma & rebirth, I don't think that these teachings are ink-blot tests where one person may interpret it one way and another may do so another way. I agree that some generalizaton is desirable, but they should not be misleading. In the Pali Canon, the Buddha's teachings on karma & rebirth are quite specific, especially when the Buddha contrasted his teachings on karma with the Jains. See: Devadaha Sutta from the Majjhima Nikaya (Pali Text Society citation: PTS: M ii 214). I believe a Pali scholar could help us to define Buddhist teachings on this topic...of course, I imagine that most Pali scholars would be Buddhist, since they've chosen to devote so much of their time to these texts.

Coolbo (talk) 06:07, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

new discussions

Presumably, if we're leaving the lead to later, that would apply to this too. Peter jackson (talk) 11:12, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Structure

Develop an effective and comprehensive structure for the article that provides readers with a sense of the sweep of Buddhist philosophy and practice. Note that to reduce overall article length, some sections could use summary style, with links to appropriate sub-articles

Talk:Buddhism/Structure#highlights of old discussions

new discussions

Talk:Buddhism/Structure#refractored text

current (developing) consensus

1. Beliefs and Practices
   1. General (maybe)
      1. Worldview
      2. Karma
      3. Dharma
      4. Rebirth
      5. Buddha
      6. Sangha
      7. Vinaya
      8. Monastic vs. lay practice
   2. Denominational Variations
      1. Scriptures and texts
      2. Theravada
         1. (variations?)
      3. Mahayana
         1. Scriptures and texts
         2. Zen/Chan
         3. Pure Land (Amida)
         4. Nichiren
         5. Vajrayana
            1. Tibetan
            2. Shingon
      4. Defunct schools
2. History (adapted from above)
   1. Early Buddhism
      1. Origins: the Buddha &c
      2. karma & rebirth, 4 noble truths, 5 precepts, monastic order, stupas, abhidharma ...
      3. Diaspora
   2. Theravada
      1. arrival in Ceylon
      2. spread through southeast asia
      3. conservative
   3. East Asian (Mahayana) Buddhism
      1. origins of Mahayana
      2. introduction to China
      3. teachings &practices: bodhisattvas, emptiness, mind-only ... Pure Land, Zen &c
      4. radical reform of earlier tradition
      5. spread through China, Korea, Vietnam, Japan
   4. Vajrayana
      1. origins of tantra
      2. introduction to Tibet
      3. Tibet, Mongolia, Bhutan, Kalmykia
      4. practices
      5. spread to Tibetan Buddhism close to this
      6. less radical relative to Mahayana
3. Buddhist Ethics
   1. five precepts
   2. compassion and generosity
4. Demographics
5. Major historical Figures
6. Sacred Places
7. Current Buddhism
   1. Modern Mission
   2. Women in Buddhism

ok, pardon me for continuing to build structure. I've refractored Peter's lists into the sub-page, and incorporated some of the ideas here.

my suggestion is that we begin by taking the historical material on the main page and rebuild it into the history structure as given above. once the history section is laid out, then it should be easier to work on the Beliefs and practices section. the sections at the end are more like isolated topics that can be cleaned up later. --Ludwigs2 18:17, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Additions to article

Note additional sections that need to be incorporated into the article; add specific references and comments below

Examine listings of contents in previous section to see whether any topics there should be added. Peter jackson (talk) 16:00, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Sources

Offer reliable and verifiable sources from authoritative practitioners and respected academics, that apply to buddhism generally. please note source context (i.e. how, where and why it might be used in the article

I should repeat here, as it's diappeared in the reorganization, that Buddhist sources are reliable sources only for their own views, not those of other Buddhists. Peter jackson (talk) 13:20, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

academic sources

• "The early teaching (Harvey, Introduction, p. 47) and the traditional understanding in the Theravada (Hinnels, John R. (1998). The New Penguin Handbook of Living Religions. London: Penguin Books. ISBN 0140514805.,pages 393f) is that these are an advanced teaching for those who are ready for them. The Mahayana position is that they are a preliminary teaching for people not yet ready for the higher and more expansive Mahayana teachings. (Harvey, Introduction to Buddhism, p. 92) They are little known in the Far East. (Eliot, Japanese Budhism, Edward Arnold, London, 1935, page 60)" Peter jackson (talk) 09:43, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

• "many Buddhisms (Gethin, Foundations of Buddhism, Oxford University Press, 1998, page 2) or "Buddhist religions". (Robinson et al., Buddhist Religions, 5th edn, Wadsworth, Belmont, California, 2004) Others again define religion in ways that exclude it. (Numen, vol 49, page 389; reprinted in Williams, Buddhism, Routledge, 2005, Volume III, page 403)" Peter jackson (talk) 09:43, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Editing and Copyediting

Editorial team to edit article.

Note: According to the guidelines, Wikipedia, tho' legally registered in Florida, is neutral between British & American English. Unless a particular form is appropriate to the subject, the style should be that of the 1st major contributor. Is there an easy way to get to the far end of an extremely long page history? Peter jackson (talk) 16:03, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Pictures and other resources

Further develop the article to be as interesting and informative as possible.

Article assessment

Develop a strategy for article assessment, including reaching FA status.

What about GA? I'm afraid I don't know anything about either. Should they be dealt with simultaneously or not? Peter jackson (talk) 13:18, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I've given a link to the guide for article assessment, above. WP:GA and WP:FA each have their own set of criteria and nomination processes. We may want to go for GA before FA, although this was once a featured article. Sunray (talk) 21:45, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

General comments, complaints, and/or observations not covered in the above

if you don't know where to put it, put it here; expect this section to be refractored frequently.