Talk:Kyiv

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Are you sure about the original name "Danapirstadir"? I searched for it on Google and came up with nothing.

According to the Ukrainian government, the official spelling of the city in English is "Kyiv". So, I propose moving the page to "Kyiv", and putting a redirect at "Kiev", the opposite of how it is now. "Kiev" is a romanisation of the name of the city in Russian, and as Ukrainian is the sole official language of Ukraine, keeping it like this is somewhat offensive. See how the Bombay - Mumbai issue was resolved. - Kricxjo

  • Okay, I've moved the page, as I proposed some months ago. There's a redirect. This makes the entry conform to other cities whose names changed after independence. Kricxjo 10:56, 10 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Well if I had seen your proposal I would have strenuously objected. There are 10 times the number of Google hits for the Kiev spelling as there are are for Kyiv and the US embassy in Kiev has its website at http://kiev.usembassy.gov/ . I'm moving the page back to the correct English spelling (which is a matter of usage, not decree). Furthermore I just did a spell check on this and "Kyiv" came up as incorrect which Kiev did not. --mav 21:26, 10 Aug 2003 (UTC)
It doesn't matter how many web hits there are. Look at Mumbai. That is the official name of the city, even though many people around the world still say "Bombay". Wikipedians decided to put the page at Mumbai and include a redirect at Bombay. The fairest solution is to put the page at the official name (according to the government of the country in which the city is located). As I said before, "Kiev" is from Russian, which is offensive to many Ukrainians because Russian is not an official language of Ukraine. I shall be moving this page back, so that it conforms with the Bombay - Mumbai decision, since the Wikipedia is better when it is coherent. It's not as if we lose anything, since Kiev will still be a redirect. Kricxjo 09:23, 11 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I should add that occasionally the Wikipedia does decree spelling, instead of letting usage decide. For this reason the spelling "Rumanian" was taken out of the article Romania, since it was perceived as archaic, though many people still use it. Because all documents issued by the Ukrainian government in English contain the spelling "Kyiv", guidebooks to Ukraine now use "Kyiv", scholarly works on the region in antiquity now tend to say "Kyiv Rus", it is entirely fair to believe "Kiev" unsatisfactory. And yeah, the US Embassy uses it, but they are criticized heavily for it (I lived in the city for a couple of years) and perceived as insensitive to the locals post-independence, as few members of the embassy staff speak Ukrainian, and will speak with visitors only in English or Russian. Kricxjo 09:32, 11 Aug 2003 (UTC)
OK. I didn't read the "offensive" part. "Kyiv" is therefore in conformance with Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names) due to that. But it was outrageous to remove every single reference to the spelling "Kiev" as was done with your first move. Presented with that version of the article an English speaker may not have known this page was about the Kiev they were taught about in school. --mav
He's got a point. If we have the articles on Bombay & Calcutta at Mumbai & Kolkata, we should have the one on Kiev at Kyiv. - Efghij 09:29, 11 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Well I don't think those should be there either. I've never heard of Mumbai & Kolkata. -- Tarquin 10:32, 11 Aug 2003 (UTC)

This is the English wiki. I'm moving it back to Kiev. RickK 02:59, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I agree with RickK & Efghij. Kiev is the proper english name. For example, Germany is also listed under Germany and not Deutschland, Japan is Japan and not Nihon, Austria is not Oesterreich. Nobody knows Mumbai & Kolkata. Chris_73 12:03, 4 Nov 2003 (JapanTime)

I think Mumbai is alright...but maybe that's because I had a friend as a kid whose family was from Bombay, and they always called it Mumbai. I guess everyone else knows it as Bombay though... Adam Bishop 03:09, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Mumbai and Kolkata actually have currency in modern English language publications. Such is not the case however (as far as I know) with Kiev (or Mecca). - Hephaestos 03:11, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Not so. Travel guides use "Kyiv", some wire services use "Kyiv", scholarly works on the region use "Kyiv". The English-language newspapers in Kyiv (edited by expatriate English-soeakers) use "Kyiv". The new name is here to stay. In fact, I'd say it's even more common than "Kolkata". Kricxjo 03:18, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)
That is as may be, it's still not the name by which the city is known to English speakers. RickK 03:22, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)~
English-language travel guides use "Kyiv", English-language histories of Ukraine use "Kyiv". Why can you not understand that? Kricxjo 03:23, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I have no doubt that the Kyiv transliteration will be widely accepted in English someday. But it is not now. Our function on Wikipedia is not to set trends, it is to report on trends that have already been set, and as of yet this one has not been set. What matters here is not Ukranian wire services or travel guides translated into English, what matters here is UK, US, Australian etc. wire services and, more important, published scholarly works in the English-speaking world. - Hephaestos 03:27, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)

What? Travel-guides using the form aren't translated into English. The Lonely Planet series, which uses the form, is written mostly by people from Britain or Australia. And works on Ukrainian history by *English-speaking* scholars, from America and Britain, use "Kyiv". This has nothing to do with what Ukrainians call their city (though I guess that should be respected if "Kiev" distresses them), but rather with what is used in educated circles in the English-speaking world. I've recommended to RickK that this be brought up on the mailing list, since otherwise it will be an endless series of moving the article to and fro. Kricxjo 03:31, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Jimbo Wales has requested that such discussions remain on the appropriate article Talk pages, not on the mailing list. RickK 03:34, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Note: On the online Merriam Webster [[1]] the main entriy is Kiev. Variant(s) or Ukrainian Kyiv or Kyyiv. So i agree with Kiev. However, i have no problem at all with the redirect of Kyiv to Kiev.Chris_73 12:35, 4 Nov 2003 (JapanTime)

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