Talk:Slovakia

New European vector maps

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Beneš decrees

Who thinks that we shouldn't talk about the Beneš decrees in the Slovakia article? Squash Racket 08:22, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Now, if you'll excuse me, I don't think we shouldn't talk about Beneš decrees and about its impacts today (last days confirm that), but currently I think there is too much emphasis on it. Because if we're talking about Beneš decrees in such detail, so we should on Magyarization. What I expect from this is no harassment for my opinion. MarkBA ^t/c/@ 08:51, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

But these were not even mentioned in the history section! You think the Beneš decrees are not important in the history of Slovakia (actually even today, if you exactly know what I mean)? And you call someone a vandal for putting info back? Squash Racket 08:56, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Maybe I overreacted, as Beneš decrees are quite key event (why the Germans then disappeared), but what I didn't like is the removal of uncontroversial content and inserting POV wording, and that's frowned upon. And impact today – last days speak for themselves. But I question this - do you think that two opposing sides here can negotiate neutrality? Again, no harassment please. MarkBA ^t/c/@ 09:11, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

You mean right now for this question? Can you propose an even shorter version that still talks about the impacts today?

We can wait for others' reaction too if you will. Squash Racket 09:17, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Possibly into this: "The part dealing ... ... has become a controversial issue in today's politics". I think we will just wait. MarkBA ^t/c/@ 09:32, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

In my opinion, the history overview in this article should be kept brief and Benes decrees do not seem to me important enough to be included. Moreover, any meaningful NPOV discussion of Benes decrees would need at least a paragraph. Btw, despite the unnecessary and heated debate among some politicians today, there were no Benes decrees enacted in Slovakia (the Slovak National Council promulgated similar acts), Germans were evacuated before the end of WWII (unlike in the Czech Republic, from where they were expelled after WWII) and Hungarians were returned the citizenship soon afterwards. I believe it is not the purpose of Wikipedia to support national mythology and victimization. Tankred 14:16, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Does anyone know what Luboš Palata said about the matter (writes for Lidové noviny)? Hobartimus 17:06, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

He doesn't say much in LN, just barely mentions it, but in his blog he's much more wordy. You can read it here if you understand Czech:

http://palata.blog.sme.sk/c/112767/Benesovy-dekrety-to-jste-si-pomohli.html

If not, he says

a) as the similar act of Czech parliament 5 years ago, it's not an act of national pride, it's an act of fear and national insignificance. b) now they will have to deal with Hungarian population of the country which wouldn't be quite happy about reconfirmation of the decrees. Vryadly 02:41, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I believe the decrees should be included because they affected Slovak population (thousands of Germans and Hungarians have been expelled), because the decrees have not been revoked until now and moreover have been recently confirmed by Slovak parliament, and finally because these decrees are still a hot topic of Slovakian-Hungrian relationships. All this combined makes the decrees a fact important enough to be presented in the article User:Vryadly 15:21, 23 September 2007 (EST)

I am afraid you are misinformed. First, Benes decrees had never been part of the Slovak legal system; legal acts of the Slovak National Council similar to Benes decrees in their contents had. Btw, only some of Benes decrees concerned collaborants, Germans, and Hungarians. The rest concerned economy and other aspects of life. Although these laws have not been officially revoked, the subsequent legislation has made them inactive. For example, the Czechoslovak citizenship was returned to Hungarians and those Hungarians removed to the Czech Republic were allowed to return to Slovakia. Most Carpathian Germans were evacuated by the German authorities during WWII, not expelled after the war. Hungarians have never been expelled from the country because of Benes decrees. Finally, the decrees have become "a hot topic" in the Slovak-Hungarian relations only recently and the rhetorical clashes between Slovak and Hungarian nationalists will fade away as they always do. And the rest of the world gives a crap about this transient war of words in Slovak and Hungarian media anyway. Tankred 19:54, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Benes decrees were part of Czechoslovak legal system, so they're part of Slovak legal system now. I'm aware that there were many topics the decrees were dealing with, but we're talking of the decrees concerning expulsions. As far as I know the citizenship was returned only to those Hungarians who haven't been expelled. And they have been expelled, though officially it was called " population exchange". Most Hungarians didn't want to be "exchanged" and were forced to leave their homes and go to Hungary. And in any case the dispute is still big in both Slovakia and Hungaria. I've studied the topic as part of my journalist work and in my knowledge the clashes between Hungarian and Slovak officials (who of course are often nationalists themselves) date back to the year when any discussions became possible, i.e. 1989.

If you have documents proving that I'm wrong, I'd be just happy to read them if you provide me with a link. I'd prefer documents in Czech or Slovak: I read both languages. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vryadly (talk • contribs) 20:21, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

BTW, are you aware that Slovak parliament just three days ago reconfirmed Benes decrees? In my opinion it clearly demonstrates that the decrees were part of Slovak legal system and that they're still play big part in Slovak politics. Vryadly 02:41, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I think it would be sufficient to write something like "After WWII more then 50000 Hungarians and Germans have been forced to leave Slovakia. This event is still a source of tension between Slovakia and Hungary." Vryadly 03:12, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Such a short description sounds reasonable. So, let us talk about the data. Can you provide a reliable source for your number (or any alternative number of expelled Hungarians and Germans)? Whom do you propose to include? Does this number include the Germans evacuated before the end of the war by German (not Czechoslovak) authorities? Does it include Hungarians moved to Bohemia (but later allowed to return)? Does it include Hungarians moved to Hungary as part of an intergovernmental agreement between Czechoslovakia and Hungary on population exchange? Tankred 04:30, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Some elements of the decrees attach collective guilt to Hungarians and Germans, these are not in harmony with the current principles of European law. Maybe deserves a mention, because mainly that is the source of tension between Hungary and Slovakia nowadays. Squash Racket 07:07, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I will find a reliable source in the nearest two days and post it here. I believe the numbers should not include the Germans moved before the end of the war, but it should included Carpathian Germam civilians slaughtered by Czechoslovak army after it - there were more then thousand documented and some historians cite more then 10000, though I haven't done any research on it yet and therefore can't say if this number is reliable.

I think the number should include the Hungarians unwillingly moved to Northern Bohemia - though I won't insist on it. And it certainly should include people moved as part of population exchange because most of Hungarians moved in this exchange have been moved by force, against their own will.

Just in case - please don't interpret me as being pro-fascist or something like it. I just think that important facts shouldn't br covered, and even more so if they're not very pleasant for us. Vryadly 22:12, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I do not oppose introduction of one or two NPOV sentences about this issue and I certainly do not think you are "pro-fascist". To clarify my position, I insist on a reference to a reliable academic source and on NPOV. It would be useful to differentiate between the number of the Carpathian Germans and Hungarians killed after the war and the number of Hungarians moved to Hungary. The information that it was part of a forced population exchange should be included because this solution was much softer than measures taken by other countries (or by the Czech part of Czechoslovakia), from where Germans were simply expelled after the Postdam Conference. I do not think it is a good idea to include the number of the Hungarians relocated to Bohemia because they were given some property there and they were allowed to return to Slovakia after a short time. The loss of the Czechoslovak citizenship was only temporal too. Tankred 23:53, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Agreed 216.240.13.13 23:59, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Let's do it then. I search for the sources as soon as I have time. Vryadly 00:02, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

The actual number is 76 600 according to this academic source: http://www.psa.ac.uk/journals/pdf/5/2003/Erika%20Harris.pdf (Leeds university)

I believe that the other 40000 mentioned here are the Hungarian who have been relocated to Bohemia. There were also 32400 Germans expelled (http://www.saske.sk/cas/4-98/olejnik.html - Slovak Academy of Sciences). Vryadly 04:17, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

76 616 Hungarians were expelled from Slovakia after 1946 within the framework of a forced population change. About 44 000 Hungarians were deported to Bohemia where they were forced to work for Czech peasants. They were deported in freight cars like the Jewish before, women and children alike. Their properties were confiscated and distributed among Slovaks similarly like the properties of the 68 000 people who were expelled into Hungary. All Hungarians lost their citizenship rights which were restored only after a two years long, humiliating "Reslovakization" process. And now the political elite of the democratic Slovakia expressed their view unanimously that everything was OK, indeed they agree with the decrees even now. It's utmost hypocrisy to claim that the whole topic is "unimportant". Zello 16:19, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I think the information on the expulsions should be present in the article, but, as far as I know Hungarians moved to Northern Bohemia, though moved there by force, haven't been forced to work for Czech peasants. And Slovak parliament's reconfirmation of the decrees was not unanimous. Vryadly 22:12, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

It was unanimous because only the Hungarian minority party voted against it. I found an essay written by historian Zoltán Horváth about the topic. He collected the recollections of the victims: http://www.mtaki.hu/docs/cd1/felvmagy/felvmagy.htm The Juhász family was deported to Northern Bohemia: "It was kind of a slave market. The Czech peasants groped the the muscles of their new servants, inspected their teeth like they were horses." Zello 17:20, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

You're certainly right about the unonimousity, but I can't find any reliable not hungarian or at least neutral sources which would confirm the claim about the forced labour. Until I find independant confirmation, let me doubt it. Vryadly 00:03, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

And this "unimportant" decision about the reconfirmation of the decrees is also a defining factor in Slovak-Hungarian relationship. Every Hungarian political parties expressed their protest, President Sólyom László said "it was felt like a slap on the face" and Hungarian MPs in the European Parliament agreed on a joint action. Every mainstrean media reported the event with a clear consensus that it is an intentional insult against Hungarian minority in Slovakia. These are facts but let us add a subjective comment: the already bad Hungarian-Slovak relationship reached its nadir these days, and there is a strong feeling of indignation and distrust. Zello 23:07, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

We have clearly a different perception of the Slovak-Hungarian relationship. I do not believe that a non-binding declaration by the Slovak parliament is a "defining factor in Slovak-Hungarian relationship" or that "the already bad Hungarian-Slovak relationship reached its nadir these days". I do not see any economic sanctions or display of force. What I see is a lot of mutual trade, cooperation within the framework of the EU, built-up of the common infrastructure, tourism, and cultural exchange. Tankred 23:17, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Economic sanctions or display of force is not possible between EU countries. Hungary had no other way to express her refusal than diplomacy and this is what political leaders did in the past days. Today the Speaker of the Hungarian Parliament cancelled her visit in Slovakia "to show her solidarity with the insulted Hungarian minority." Public opinion is obviously a subjective topic but yes we have different perception: I think Slovak-Hungarian relationship is characterised by a cold dislike with occasional conflicts and verbal attacks. The reconfirmation of the decress was an intentional insult and it was felt so. Zello 21:30, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree. It seems to me that Hungarian-Slovakian relationship is probably the worst among any two EU member countries, with a probable exception of Hungarian-Romanian relationships. And it's probably not only Slovakian fault if you recall a statement of Hungarian President claiming himself to be a "President of all Hungarians". It's impossible to understand "who's started it first". So I think we all should refrain from political discussions and accusations such as "intentional insult" which lead us nowhere, and proceed instead with the section. Vryadly 00:14, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

I think this encyclopedia should really include this kind of information. Where there are Hungarians, it is necessary to inform the reader on the main page that at the end of WWII, as a sanction for war crimes commited by fascist Hungary and for the occupation of Slovak territory, some Hungarian people were sent to another part of the same country, received there empty houses with gardens and fields and then moved back to where they were before some months later, because they did not like the houses. I am sure their families are shocked until today. (Families moved when highways are build do not have the luck to be able to come back today.) It is also necessary to inform on the main page that as a result of WWII, as a sanction for war crimes commited by Hungary and for the occupation of Slovak territory, Hungarians were deprived of their citizenship for some two years and then got it back (what a punishment!). We also have to inform about the population exchange between Slovakia and Hungary, proposed by W. Churchill to prevent the problems that led to WWII, people were moved in an organised way to a country where their mother tongue is spoken as the official language (how terrible!) received houses and gardens at their destination. Maybe we could compare that with the solutions in Poland, Czech Republic, Turkey etc. - everybody immediately expelled without any compensation. To preserve the desired NPOV, it should be also mentioned in the article about Hungary that:

• 100 000 Slovaks and Czechs were expelled (in the proper sense of the word - they were not allowed to come back and did not receive houses etc.) during WWII by fascist Hungary from the Slovak territory occupied by Hungary
• further thousands were killed either directly by the Hungarian regime during WWII or deliberately sent to fight for Hungary in the Soviet Union etc. instead of Hungarians to be killed there
• within the population exchange after WWII the same number of Slovaks had to leave Hungary and was moved to Slovakia

The article about Hungary should also mention the planned and organised ethnic cleansing in the Kingdom of Hungary around 1900 and in the late 19th century, in the course of which:

• some 60 000 Slovak children were taken from their parents and deported to Hungarian-speaking territories to turn them into Magyars
• out of some 7000 Slovak schools after 1850 in Slovakia their number decreased to virtually 0 in 1914, although most parts of Slovakia are purely Slovak speaking
• people were persecuted by the authorities just for speaking Slovak in the street, owning Slovak books or newspapers etc.
• thousands of other "bad" things happened (which interestingly are not even mentioned here in the Magyarisation article, because obviously a banch of Magyar nationalists, who dont even hide it, managed to turn this wikipedia into another of the countless Hungarian propaganda page on the internet, about which uninformed readers from the US think that they are serious texts)

We should also inform the reader, how this wikipedia manages to turn Petofi, Kossuth and Liszt, all of whom were Slovaks, the last and first one even pure ones, as well as many other Slovak personalities into "Hungarians" and nobody cares. A special article about the Hungarian complex regarding their history - having no parallel all over Europe -, their hate against all their neighbours (resulting from what they are thought at schools) - without any parallel in the world - and their constant attempt to restore the borders of the old Kingdom of Hungary, part of which is also this wikipedia, should be written. The reader should be also informed about the military force established in Hungary by one of their parties recently to restore the old Kingdom of Hungary and he should be informed that this is possible in an EU country. I also suggest adding an information about antisemitism successfully used in modern Hungary - a country virtually without Jews - by some parties to gain voters. He should be also informed how this is possible in an EU country. He should be also informed that 50% of voters vote for a party that would be considered a nationalist fringe party in western Europe. I hope someone will make these additions. Egapresu 02:10, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Thank you Egapresu for your very first edits on Wikipedia right here on this talk page. Please use the Sandbox next time for this kind of spamming. Squash Racket 05:07, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

________________________________________________

Would everybody agree with the following wording?

"After WWII more then [76000 Hungarians] and [32000 Germans] have been forced to leave Slovakia. This former event is still a source of tension between Slovakia and Hungary."

1 - http://www.psa.ac.uk/journals/pdf/5/2003/Erika%20Harris.pdf 2 - http://www.saske.sk/cas/4-98/olejnik.html

Vryadly 00:47, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

"This former event is still a source of tension between Slovakia and Hungary." POV and meaningless. Slovakia and Hungary are countries. It may be a source of tension between some political parties and citizens in Slovakia and Hungary at best.--Svetovid 02:36, 28 September 2007 (UTC)