Talk:Hillary Clinton

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Whitewash

You can smell the POV from a mile away--RCT 17:28, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Some of us have always wanted to adapt Smell-o-Vision to Wikipedia articles and now it looks as though we've succeeded. Hard work does pay off! Wasted Time R 18:05, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Lead section

Per the GA comments, I have attempted to expand the lead section. This is fraught with peril, as everyone loves to battle over what the lead says. However, what was there clearly did not meet the WP:LS requirements. Note that I haven't put any sourcing into the lead, because everything that's there is thoroughly sourced later on in the body of the article. Wasted Time R 18:14, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

I think it's too long. It says too much about Arkansas. That's better dealt with in its own section.--Gloriamarie 18:34, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

See my response below. Wasted Time R 18:54, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Comments from GA review for FAC

The following comments need to be addressed/debated before the article goes to FAC:

• MAJOR: Lead section talk about the 'polarization' of opinion amongst people about Hillary Clinton
• MINOR: Her parents encouraged her to pursue the career of her choice.[1]" - add a phrase letting the readers know that this was not a standard practice of that era
• MINOR: Explanation for the event - "She was audibly booed in an audience of New York firefighters and police officers during her on-stage appearance at The Concert for New York City on October 20, 2001.[54]"
  --Kalyan 12:52, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I'd remove the booing unless we can find reliable sources that actually explain it. Otherwise it is unclear or speculative. Tvoz |talk 16:26, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Whether it was a common practice of the area or not, I would say that it's important to her life whether her parents encouraged her or not. I don't see how it matters whether it was common or not, it should still be left in.--71.65.202.41 18:26, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

First woman elected statewide

Moving to New York, Hillary Rodham Clinton was elected to the United States Senate in 2000, becoming the first First Lady elected to public office and the first woman elected statewide in New York.

The last part of this sentence is erroneous. Elizabeth McCaughey was elected lieutenant governor of New York in 1994. [03:23, 10 June 2007 24.168.150.1]

This has since been changed. The intended meaning was, Senator or Governor, not sub-Governor statewide positions, but this was difficult to say concisely, so someone has changed it to just first Senator. Wasted Time R 22:27, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

editing needed

This article needs serious editing. There are no sources where sources are needed and there are far too many references in the early life section. Perhaps we can forgo adding links to other pages for simple things such as "New York" and "Chicago" to keep the article from being a scattered mess of blue text with interjections of black text. After all, when one clicks on "Chicago," I doubt they will find any information pertinent to the article on H. Clinton. Secondly, the second paragraph appears a bit choppy with "she" being the subject of nearly every sentence. Lastly, it has to be shortened: while I am sure many of us care that she was a college Republican, I think that a short section combining her college years and early career would suffice. Moreover, the section on her term as senator is far too long; nearly twice the length of Strom Thurmond's, and lets face it, she hasn't done all that much. If people want to know all about her, they will read one of the many biographies on her...as for this article, it needs only to contain the really, really really important information... and perhaps the really really. [01:04, 12 June 2007 Mrathel]

1. Please call out where sources are needed, editors here will be happy to supply them (or delete material if there are none).
2. Blue text is a fact of life in this medium. Better more links than less. A foreign reader, for example, may have no idea where Chicago is within the United States, and the link is therefore helpful.
3. I strongly disagree about shortening her early life or college or post-college sections. These were her formative years and she had a lot of accomplishments, ones that people who only view her as the wife of a successful politician may not be aware of.
4. I agree the section on Senator probably has a little too much here or there. The Strom Thurmond article is too short; WP:Recentism at work again.
5. I disagree that this article needs to be terse and that people need to head off to a biography. Wikipedia has reams of information about TV shows and video games and B-sides of singles; it can certainly afford a comprehensive account of major political figures, HRC included. Wasted Time R 01:15, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree the article is quite long. I don't think that's a bad thing, but the opening is overly long. I would say that the second paragraph-- on Wellesley and her law career-- does not need to be there because the First Lady and Senator information is so much more important for an opening. It just seems very wordy. A sentence would be sufficient about her law career.. perhaps "Once named one of the hundred most influential lawyers in America, as First Lady Clinton..." and go into the First Lady paragraph. While the Wellesley information is obviously important and should be included in her early life or school section, it doesn't really belong in the opening to the entire article.--Gloriamarie 18:32, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

The key here is that many people think HRC has earned nothing on her own, that everything has come from being married to BC. If the opening only talks about First Lady and Senator, that impression will get reinforced. That's why I think the college and law career material is important. It shows that she was already quite accomplished before BC became widely known. And in an article this long (and just wait, if she becomes president!), a longish lead section is not inappropriate. Wasted Time R 18:53, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Is that really NPOV to write the article directed at a certain subset of readers? I believe that the same impression can be given by simply including an amazing fact like "she was considered one of the 100 most influential/important lawyers in the country" and then talking about the other stuff. I still think it's too long, especially talking even about Wellesley :) --Gloriamarie 03:20, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

The lead should also be thoroughly cited, even if the references are included elsewhere in the article. The same references can be used.--Gloriamarie 18:45, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

WP:LS says the lead section "should be carefully sourced as appropriate". I was hoping "as appropriate" meant, source things if they don't get sourced later ;-) Wasted Time R 18:56, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Uh- we were just given a GA review that specifically asked that the intro be LENGTHENED, which it has been. Now we're being told it's too long. I think in balance that Wasted is correct - this subject can support a long article, as there are several significant areas to examine, and we dcon't have to worry so much about length. Tvoz |talk 22:21, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I just think the lengthening was taken a bit too far. It seems odd to be talking about the Wellesley speech, interesting fact as it is, in the second paragraph of the article.--Gloriamarie 03:20, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Hi., i am the GA reviewer for the article. Wanted to clarify a couple of things. One, i don't think that the Lead is overtly long, CONSIDERING the length of the article. Infact as stated above, i insisted that the earlier lead (as submitted for GA) about her being a former first lady and a current senator wasn't enough and asked these folks to expand to cover various aspects of her bio in the lead. If there are any sentences that you think can be removed, please suggest so.

For my part, I read the lead a few times now and the only sentences that can be cropped:

• A native of Illinois, Hillary Rodham initially attracted national attention in 1969 when she became the first student to speak at commencement exercises for Wellesley College.
• The state of her marriage to Bill Clinton was the subject of considerable public discussion following the events of the Lewinsky scandal in 1998.
• Her major initiative, the Clinton health care plan, failed to gain approval by the U.S. Congress in 1994, but she was successful in other areas, such as establishing the Children's Health Insurance Program in 1997.

I am not asking that these sentences be removed, just that these might the only sentences that can be removed at max. But as i said, i like to leave the lead in the current state.

Two, with respect to the length of the article - Hillary Clinton has the potential to be one of the most visited page when the democratic race hots up and if she wins the ticket, during presidential campaign and hence the length of the article is appropriate. I am not an american and thus excuse me if i don't know who Strom Thurmond is (i shall look up his wikipage after this message).

Third, can you please comment why you don't consider the lead size of Barack Obama to be inappropriate. also, for a senator who has 2.5 years in office - he has 2 subsections and atleast 4 good paras. And BO article is FA. --Kalyan 15:23, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I do think the Barack Obama lead is pretty long considering most other politicians (many of them around longer) have a much shorter lead. It talks about his family and other information that is repeated later in the article. In my preference, the Lewinsky scandal should not be mentioned in the lead, either. It fits in with the paragraph and the rest of the information, though. This is not a huge thing so I don't want to make a huge deal of it. It was simply a suggestion. I don't think the article is too long, although the Senate section could be edited to not seem as if it's "she voted this, she sponsored this, etc."... to be more flowing.--Gloriamarie 02:57, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't think we need to arbitrate the length of Barack Obama here - the editors there have their reasons for constructing it the way it is, and the editors here have a different set of circumstances to negotiate. Although I was skeptical at first, I now think the long intro here is appropriate, and I think Wasted's argument above from June 13 about presenting material about her that demonstrates her independent accomplishments, is exactly correct and we should not remove the sentences referenced above - each adds an important element. Tvoz |talk 03:12, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Added a Pie Chart Showing the Number of Delegates that Clinton, Obama and Edwards Based on Polling Data and DNC's 15% Threshold Rule

I've added a Pie Chart Showing the Number of Delegates that Clinton, Obama and Edwards Based on Polling Data and DNC's 15% Threshold Rule

Pie Chart Showing the Number of Delegates that Clinton, Obama and Edwards would earn Based on Polling Data in all States (states without polling data are counted as "Undecided") if the Democratic National Convention were held today in accordance with the DNC's 15% Threshold Rule (click to enlarge).

--Rpilaud 21:06, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

do you have a link to your graph showing a trendline of the poll results as they relate to # of delegates?

Wow

Not a single mention of Hillary's vote for the Iraq War Resolution? Hillary's supporters must be working overtime to sweep that rather important but now embarrasing bit of information under the rug. Well, I'll add it and take up a pool on how long it takes a DLC/DNC operative to edit it out.--Nicky Scarfo 16:18, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

You missed it. Senator section, first term subsection. "Clinton voted in favor of the Iraq Resolution, ..." Wasted Time R 16:20, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Oopsy-- just noticed it, I guess I missed it being buried in with all the wonderful things she's done. Sorry folks. --Nicky Scarfo 16:27, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Hilary Clinton-related music video?

Weird question here. I was in the other room last night and overhead something on the news from the other room. They were playing some new video that had some connection to Hilary or her campaign or something about her. Anyway the song kicked ass and I want to know the title and singer of the song. I've heard it before. The name "Dream" is coming to my mind for some reason, I don't know if that's the name of the artist or has no connection to the song I'm thinking of at all but for some reason I have a feeling the word "Dream" is either the title of the band/singer or of the song itself. Some words I can remember from the song are "street lights," "somewhere in the night," and "people" if that narrows it down (which it doesn't much as nothing of note came up on google when I googled those words with the word "lyrics". Anyway, anyone know what song this is? Thanks.--— Preceding unsigned comment added by Playstation7654 (talk • contribs)

Sounds like you heard Journey's classic "Don't Stop Believin'", recently of Sopranos final episode and Clintons spoof fame. This has been added to the campaign article, but doesn't merit mention here. Wasted Time R 18:35, 21 June 2007 (UTC)