Talk:Antisemitism in Islam

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Bless sins (talk | contribs) at 02:24, 18 June 2007 (→‎Trends section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on July 4 2006. The result of the discussion was keep (no consensus).

Reversions and discussions

Please work out your issues here. The previous discussions were fragmented, scattered across multiple sections, and barely coherent in terms of continuity of topic and thread. I have archived the talk page so that a clear discussion can take place. Please place each significant changes, and its rationale, in a separate section for clarity and ease of building consensus. Thank you. -- Avi 12:24, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Long headings + protected!

Sorry, I edited the page since I read it as semi-protected... which, is not a good thing. I just want to point out that I think headings which are sentences should be avoided as they are unwieldy and could be explained in an introduction sentence.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Grenavitar (talk • contribs)

It was a good edit; some of the Titles have been absurdly long, including this. Generally they have become so long because they are attempts to insert apologetics into what should be a simple descriptor. Jayjg (talk) 14:39, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I come around sporadically so it'd be great if we can all agree to it when the page is unprotected... but, I've never had my time on the arbcom for abusing admin tools and I'd like to keep it that way.
And I agree with what you say. This page is about Islam and anti-Semitism not about the X% of Muslims / Islamic teaching that isn't ever considered anti-Semitic. I think a big problem is the tit-for-tat idea of neutrality within each article that tends to move them off topic. We just need make sure the article conveys about bounded scope (unless a notable author is arguing that all Muslims are anti-Semitic). gren グレン 18:11, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There is no reason to remove the following:

According to Norman Stillman, Antisemitism in Muslim world increased greatly for more than two decades following 1948 but "peaked by the 1970s, and declined somewhat as the slow process of rapprochement between the Arab world and the state of Israel evolved in the 1980s and 1990s."[1] Johannes Jansen believes that antisemitism will have no future in the Arab world in the long run. In his view, like other imports from the Western World, antisemitism is unable to establish itself in the private lives of Muslims.[2]

It is sourced to reliable sources (so it is in accordance with WP:V). It represents the views of various scholars (so it is NPOV). As per concensus on WP:NOT, it doesn't violate the "WP:NOT#Cball".Bless sins 18:10, 16 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yawn. You are just repeating the same arguements, and we already responded to them. We are getting tired of repeating ourselves. Do you have a new arguement to add?--sefringleTalk 02:55, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
These are just random opinions, not backed by anything, and they're not even current. Jayjg (talk) 04:01, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The first one belongs to Encyclopedia of Islam and is notable. It is not random. --Aminz 04:03, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If you think the second one is POV, you need to find another scholar who says something otherwise. (Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ#Lack_of_neutrality_as_an_excuse_to_delete) --Aminz 04:09, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Which says "There's sometimes trouble determining whether some claim is true or useful, particularly when there are few people on board who know about the topic. In such a case, it's a good idea to raise objections on a talk page; if one has some reason to believe that the author of the biased material will not be induced to change it, we have sometimes taken to removing the text to the talk page itself (but not deleting it entirely). But the latter should be done more or less as a last resort, never as a way of punishing people who have written something biased."--SefringleTalk 05:46, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Sefringle I have responded to all your arguments. But here it is again. You said that Jansen's opinions were a violation of WP:NOT#CBALL. That is incorrect. I posted something here, and the response was that Jansen's statments were legit. Also, Not including Lewis and Stillman, but including PEW, is a clear violation of NPOV. Because NPOV says "All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), representing fairly and without bias all significant views..." Thus we should represent Lewis nd Stillan, who are certainly reliable sources.Bless sins 02:24, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Quran section

There is no reason to remove the following:

According to Bernard Lewis, the Quran does not devote much content to the issue of Jews and Judaism.[3] Of these most of the Quranic references are to the biblical Children of Israel, a few references also talk about contemporary Jews. There is no specific mention of Jews in verses dating from the Meccan period.[4]

What point is being made here? Jayjg (talk) 04:03, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This helps clarify when the "antisemitism" in Islam developed (i.e. what period of time). This also shows that the degreee of antisemitism/philosemitism by accountign the amount of Quranic content devoted to Jews.Bless sins 02:20, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Islamic theology

Restore Judaism in Islamic theology. This section is sourced to:

  • Bernard Lewis in Semites and Anti-Semites
  • Samuel Rosenblatt in Essays on Antisemitism (co-author)
  • Koppel Pinson in Essays on Antisemitism (co author)
  • Leon Poliakov in The History of Anti-semitism
  • Jerome Chanes in Antisemitism
  • Frederick Sweitzer in Anti-Semitism: myth and hate from antiquity to the present (co-author)
  • Marvin Perry in Anti-Semitism: myth and hate from antiquity to the present (co-author)
  • Khaleel Muhammad in Symposium: The Koran and Anti-Semitism
  • Norman Stillman in Antisemitism: A historical encyclopedia of prejudice and persecution


All of the scholars are writing specifically about Islam as well as antisemitism. Since it sources the views of 9 scholars, removign this section would severely violate WP:NPOV.

It's WP:SYNTH; none of them are discussing "Judaism in Islamic theology", you have invented that topic. Jayjg (talk) 04:03, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes they are. They all talk about the Islamic concept of God (thus theology) with relation to Jews in the context of antisemitism. If you don't believe me, check the sources yourself.Bless sins 02:20, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Antisemitism in pre-modern Islam

Restore this section. No one has really presented an objection against this section. The fact that this content is removed is because it got caught in the edit war over the above mentioned issues.Bless sins 18:10, 16 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't talk about antisemitism, though, it just cherry-picks positive things to say from authors who write about antisemitism. It fails WP:NPOV. Jayjg (talk) 04:05, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Can you be more specifc at how it fails NPOV. Please note that a lot of the content I'm adding is actually from Schweitzer and Perry. Not including that content would indeed be "cherry-picking".Bless sins 02:21, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Definition section

The following is a (probably unintentional) misrepresentation of sources:

According to Bernard Lewis, antisemitism is marked by two distinct features: Jews are judged according to a standard different from that applied to others, and they are accused of "cosmic evil."

This is what Lewis actually says,

Prejudices existed in the Islamic world, as did occasional hostility, but not what could be called anti-Semitism, for there was no attribution of cosmic evil. (emphasis added)

Whoever added this probably meant to say that the Jews are not accused of cosmic evil. I know it is just one word, but it makes a lot of difference.Bless sins 18:10, 16 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, we should mention this point. --Aminz 04:04, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly the opposite! According to Lewis, unless Jews are accused of "cosmic evil", it's not antisemitism. Thus, in Lewis view, antisemitism is marked by two distinct features, one of which is that they are "accused of cosmic evil". Jayjg (talk) 04:07, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think bless sins means we should mention that accusations of cosmic evil wasn't there. (?) --Aminz 04:10, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This is under the "Definitions" section, so I don't think it can be that. Jayjg (talk) 04:22, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  1. ^ Yahud, Encyclopedia of Islam
  2. ^ Jansen, Johannes, J. G. Lewis' Semities and Anti-Semites. The Jewish Quarterly Review.
  3. ^ Lewis Semites and Anti-Semites 127
  4. ^ Stillman, Norman (2005). Antisemitism: A historical encyclopedia of prejudice and persecution. Volume 1. Pages 356-61
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