User talk:Drachenfyre

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Meelar (talk) 03:47, Mar 3, 2005 (UTC)

Melisende

Hi Drachenfrye, you've been making good edits, just a matter of fixing the spelling mostly :) I'm not sure why Eleanor and Maud were chosen to succeed William and Henry...as far as I know, Aquitaine was dominated by outsiders (England and France), so it wasn't too important there to have a strong male leader. And in England it turned out to be a mistake on Henry's part, since it led to a horrible civil war. As for Jerusalem, which is what I study so I am somewhat better informed, there was first of all the unusual situation of Baldwin II having four daughters, and secondly there was no specific law or rule for the succession. It was the custom that whoever was the closest relative of the previous king and was already in the kingdom would be chosen (thus Godfrey and Baldwin I's older brother Eustace was passed over twice). 1131 was the first time the kingdom passed from a father to a child, so there was no custom about that particular procedure. I'm sure Baldwin knew it would be a problem, since he took so much trouble to arrange a marriage to Fulk, and I suppose Jerusalem was lucky that there was no all-out civil war like there was in England. I hope that helps...I don't really know enough to attempt to analyze England or Aquitaine. Adam Bishop 06:12, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

By the way, where are you getting this info about Melisende? From the source you gave on the page, I assume? (that is, "Medieval Women, edited by Derek Baker, Ecclesiatical History Society, 1978") Adam Bishop 03:00, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Thanks, I'll take a look at those books. About Maud, yeah, it's just the Wikipedia convention to spell it "Maud", we could just as easily write "Maude" or even "Matilida", but for whatever reason we've picked the Maud form. I've seen a number of spellings for "Melisende" as well but that seems to be the most usual way. By the way, if you type ~~~~ on talk pages, it will leave a signature! Adam Bishop 05:33, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Elizabeth

Welcome to Wikipedia! It has been held by the courts that the Sovereign cannot hold a peerage title, because the Sovereign is him or herself the source of such titles. Thus, the Queen would not be Countess of Chester; it is the Prince of Wales who holds this earldom. The Queen owns the Duchy of Lancaster, but the title "Duke of Lancaster" is not used (again, since it is a peerage title). -- Emsworth 11:43, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Melisende Psalter

Well, the sources I used suggest that Fulk commissioned it (especially as it seems to have his name on it), although I'm sure Melisende knew about it - not like it was a surprise birthday present or something. No one really knows though, only the circumstancial evidence from the calendar suggests it was even commissioned for/by Melisende at all. Adam Bishop 01:04, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The library here doesn't seem to have the Hamilton book you're using, but I knew who he was because I have seen his book about Baldwin IV. It sounds interesting though, I'll have to check at other libraries. As for Agnes, Guy, Sibylla, Raymond, and Baldwin, it's very difficult sometimes to sort out who was a member of which faction and who was influencing whom. You might also want to see if you can find a copy of William of Tyre's chronicle, there is an English translation of it, and that is where Hamilton is getting his information (William himself was a member of Raymond's faction). Also, I suppose it would be appropriate to use the Melisende Psalter image on the Melisende article, although it doesn't depict Melisende herself. I'll add that. Adam Bishop 00:35, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)
You'll have to ask Alberia about that picture, I don't know where it comes from. I'm pretty sure it's not from the Psalter...it doesn't look familiar, anyway. Adam Bishop 00:19, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Sibylla

Heh, I think you may have seen the crappy hand-drawn map I made...but it's not in any article at the moment. We've tried to find good maps of the crusader states in the past, but it's very difficult to find a suitable map for the kingdom specifically. Anyway, I'll look at Sibylla, thanks. Adam Bishop 04:13, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Re: Melisende Image

Hi Drachenfyre! Since Adam inquired about the Melisende image I've contacted my source to see if he can direct us to the original art work. The image was found here: http://www.guide2womenleaders.com/womeninpower/Womeninpower1100.htm. I'm still scouring around to find other sources that name that image as Melisende. I'll let you know what I find. Alberia Torkenkluvin 16:33, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)


My source says it's part of the Melisende Psalter, but I haven't been able to confirm that by viewing the manuscript. Do you have any resource online for viewing it in it's entirety? Alberia Torkenkluvin 18:15, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
The whole thing isn't online, but there are a few books that have pictures (the ones listed in the Melisende Psalter article. I'll take a look at them again when I have the chance, although as far as I remember the pictures look much different than the one we have here. But there were a bunch of different artists involved, so who knows. Adam Bishop 00:53, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Sandbox

You can just create a subpage of your userpage, if you want to make a sandbox. Like this: User:Drachenfyre/sandbox. It won't be entirely invisible though, any edits you make will still show up in Recent Changes.

What Welsh article are you talking about? I certainly don't know any Welsh :) Adam Bishop 01:33, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Oh that, well someone had machine-translated something very poorly into a bunch of languages, and I suggested to the people on the Welsh wikipedia that it probably didn't make any sense (I couldn't read it myself). But yeah, people translate articles into different languages all the time. I often translate things from the French Wikipedia, and sometimes from the German, although I've stopped trying to translate into those languages because it usually doesn't turn out very well. Adam Bishop 02:01, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
S'mae Drachenfyre. I'd be glad to help out as much as I can with Welsh translations, though this weekend I won't be online much as I'll be at the UK national SF convention. Another user who is active both here and on cy.wikipedia is User:Deb, while over on cy: users cy:Defnyddiwr:Okapi and cy:Defnyddiwr:Marnanel are active. We also have a page where you can ask questions about the use of the Welsh language in articles at cy:Wicipedia:Cymorth iaith. Regards, Arwel 11:54, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
S'mae. My Welsh is pretty poor. In fact, contributing to wicipedia is my way of trying to improve. Most of my contributions tend to be either biographical stubs or entries in lists, which I can just about manage. So I wouldn't be much use in translating articles. I'd recommend you start them off yourself. Other contributors will then tend to notice them and add bits or correct any errors you might make. There's no shame in that! Deb 11:05, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

William of Tyre

Thanks! I've seen the coat of arms they have on the French Wikipedia, but we have one too, on Kingdom of Jerusalem. I like ours better :) I don't think it's necessary to put it on every article, though.

What atlases did you find? They are probably not public domain unless they are really old, like more than 80 years.

I've been using the standard English translation of William of Tyre, I should write a proper citation when I use it, I'll fix those eventually. (The Latin version is in the Medieval Studies library but we can't take books out from there.) Adam Bishop 02:43, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, Babcock and Krey is the standard English translation. The Latin is in the Corpus Christianorum series (volume 68 and 69, I think), although I imagine that would not be in a public library. The citation for the Derek Baker book you've been using would probably be "Derek Baker, ed., Medieval Women, Oxford: Ecclesiastical History Society, 1978." It seems to have a further title, "dedicated and presented to Professor Rosalind M. T. Hill on the occasion of her seventieth birthday", as far as I can tell (but I don't have the book in front of me). Rosalind Hill, by the way, translated another crusade chronicle, the Gesta Francorum, it's pretty interesting (not much about medieval women in it though). Adam Bishop 03:49, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I don't have the book but I can look at it if I have time. I don't know about the Cathars though, there are a lot of reasonable explanations for women inheriting property without involving them. Don't get too enthusiastic...I know it's fun to explore theories that don't get much attention, but there is a lot of nonsense concerning the Cathars. Adam Bishop 05:04, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure what to suggest...do a subject search for "medieval women" in your library catalogue, that might be a good start. And look through the bibliographies of any books you find, those always point to something interesting. I have no special knowledge of this area so I don't know what specific books you should look for. Maybe you could ask User:Mississippienne, I think she might be able to help. Adam Bishop 00:26, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I hope this doesn't get lost among Mississippienne's response, but I forgot to ask - who says Boulogne was a Cathar stronghold? That seems very strange, they shouldn't be that far north. Adam Bishop 07:29, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Medieval heiresses

Hello Drachenfyre! You contacted me regarding the inheritance of medieval heiress. The only case I've studied in any detail is that of the Empress Maud, the daughter of King Henry I of England. In that case, many factors were at work. Maude was Henry's only surviving legitimate child; moreover, she was porphyrogenita, born in the purple, born of a reigning king. Henry himself had been porphyrogenitus, a fact that in the eyes of many made him a fitter king than his elder brothers.

At the time of the death of William Adelin, Henry's heir apparent, there was still a surviving, legitimate male-line descendant of William the Conqueror: William Clito, Henry's nephew. But Henry was reluctant to nominate William Clito as his heir for various reasons. First of all, he had taken the throne of England from William Clito's father, Robert. Henry making William Clito his heir would've been admitting that his entire reign was illegal, not something Henry was eager to admit to. Also, Henry was not terribly old at that time, and seemed confident that he could father more children. His second marriage was childless, but Henry could not have known that at the time. Had he sired a legitimate, porphyrogenitus son by Adeliza of Louvain, neither William Clito nor Maude would've been neccesary as heirs.

Henry was a smart man, however, and one to hedge his bets. After a few fruitless years with Adeliza, he married Maude to Geoffrey of Anjou. This had two-fold intentions: (1) to produce grandchildren as heirs for England, (2) to secure a long-term alliance with Anjou. Henry had long sought an alliance with the Angevins; William Adelin's wife had been Geoffrey's sister. The next year William Clito died, childless, so even that remote possibility was gone. It wasn't until 1133 that Maude actually produced a child, the future Henry II of England, no doubt much to her father's relief.

But why didn't Henry nominate another male relative instead of Maude? Well, his infant grandson was too young. William Clito was dead. His sons were all illegitimate, including the eldest and most capable, Robert, 1st Earl of Gloucester, who was not only a bastard but also not porphyrogenitus. His favorite nephew, Stephen, was there at court, but Stephen was not his son and Henry doesn't seem to have believed that Stephen would make a successful king (he was right, as later events would show).

Maude, on the other hand, was his legitimate, porphyrogenita daughter. In her veins flowed the blood of the old Anglo-Saxon kings. She was married to the Count of Anjou (a powerful warrior) and had a legitimate son. Henry probably hoped that by making his barons swear loyalty to her, that the transition from his reign to hers would flow smoothly. It didn't, but once again, he couldn't have known that at the time. Missi


Kings of Jerusalem

Hi! In response to your note at User talk:Wetman, hope you'll approve of the tweaks I made, all designed to fit the article within broader context. Should there be an italicized header: "Main article on the Kingdom itself is at Kingdom of Jerusalem.? I'm not genealogically competent to assess the data in bio-genealogies themselves. --Wetman 09:50, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The Empress Maude and her dynasty

Hello Drachenfyre,

Firstly, a note on names. William Adelin's name derives from the Anglo-Saxon word "Æthling", meaning prince. Similarly, his cousin William Clito's name derives from the Latin "clito", also meaning prince. These names were used not only to differentiate from one another (there being a surplus of Williams around this time) but also to reflect their royal descent, they being the only princes in the legitimate male-line descent from the Conqueror.

As for Geoffrey of Anjou, an alliance with the Angevins had long been sought by King Henry. Fulk V of Anjou had long been a thorn in Henry's side, but not one he could ignore. The marriage of William Adelin to Fulk's daughter was supposed to forge a permanent alliance, but of course this was dashed by the White Ship disaster. So Maude and Geoffrey was another grafting of the same families. Robert of Torigny, when talking about the marriage, rather apologetically says that while the Count of Anjou was nowhere near the Emperor of the Germans in dignity and prestige, but still Geoffrey was of a noble line and a descendant of Charlemagne.

Orderic Vitalis says that Henry intended Geoffrey to be a "commander on his wife's behalf", a powerful warrior who would safeguard the succession of Maude and her son. Henry doesn't ever seem to have intended Geoffrey to wield any real political power in England -- he gave Geoffrey no lands, no titles, no official positions at all. He was to be content with Anjou, now that his father left to be king of Jerusalem. So it's no surprise Henry II emphasized his status as "FitzEmpress" -- his claim to the throne, and his claim to power, came through his mother, not his father. Missi

Changing attribution

There is a way to do it: Wikipedia:Changing attribution for an edit, but I think there is an enormous backlog and it may take months (if ever) for those edits to be assigned to your username. Adam Bishop 03:25, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

King Guy

Well, let me see if I can remember what happened then...basically, when Richard and Philip showed up on the Third Crusade, they assumed that there was no longer a king or a kingdom, because almost all of it had been lost (except Tyre, thanks to Conrad of Montferrat). They eventually took back Acre and most of the rest of the Mediterranean coast. But neither Richard nor Philip were willing to simply restore Guy, especially as there were other people with better claims, for example Isabella. If they were going to restore the kingdom to anyone, they wanted it to be a blood relative of the last reigning royal family member, that is, Sibylla, who was now dead, as you say. This is why Isabella was married so many times - whoever was married to her had the best claim to the throne. Therefore, Conrad became king in 1192, when the Crusade was basically over and they were finally able to restore the kingdom, in Acre. Conrad was supported by Philip, while Richard had supported Guy, and in compensation for losing Jerusalem, Richard gave Guy Cyprus instead. Does that make any sense? It's pretty confusing. Adam Bishop 04:10, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Oh, I see what you mean...I don't know what happened in 1190, I'll have to look it up. I assume Guy still considered himself king, because everyone had bigger problems to worry about than the specific details of succession. Conrad didn't recognize him as king even while Sibylla was still alive, and he seemed to realize the importance of marrying Isabella, but I don't think Isabella was promoted as queen in 1190. As I said though, I'm not really sure...I'll see if I can find anything more definite. Adam Bishop 15:14, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Star Wars wikipedia

Greetings! I JUST discovered the Star Wars Wikipedia you started! I love it! I was the one responsible for the Naboo major rewrite on 11 Nov 04, when I myself just discovered the wikipedia. I didnt have an acct at first, then created one under Wildorchid- then forgot my access code, now am back as drachenfyre. I saw that there was a Star Wars Wikipedia through the SOE Galaxies forums: were you the one to post there? I am gald to see my contrabutions in Naboo and Corellia are going to good use.Drachenfyre

Hello, Drachenfyre. I was not around in November, but signed up for Wikipedia on Jan 5, 2005. Also I haven't been to the SOE Galaxies forums, so it must have been someone else, and I might have a good idea who. Also, I should let you know that I only was a co-founder. Credit for getting the wiki off the ground goes to WhiteBoy. I hope you do make good contributions at Wookieepedia. -- Riffsyphon1024 02:31, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)

Cathars, Troubadours, and Women

Hi! Sorry to take such a long time to reply to you. The idea of the troubadours veneration of the domna being linked to Catharism is an old classic, as far as I can tell: it appears to me that e.g. René Nelli, L'Érotique des troubadours, Toulouse: Privat, 1963 espouses that view (but I've only glanced at it), and it is certainly often mentioned. It might spring partly from the once-common perception of the cathars as proto-protestants. While it is of course difficult to ascertain exactly what the beliefs of the cathars were (see e.g. Peter Biller, 'Through a Glass Darkly: Seeing Medieval Heresy', The Medieval World ed. Peter Linehan and Janet L. Nelson, London and New York: Routledge, 2001; Mark Gregory Pegg, 'On Cathars, Albigenses, and Good Men of Languedoc', Journal of Medieval History 27 (2001), 181-95; and indeed the first chapter of John H. Arnold, History: A Very Short Introduction, Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2000), it appears to me that the troubadours probably weren't cathars, nor significantly influenced by catharism. Linda Paterson emphasises that cathars' focus on the spiritual world, and abhorrence of the physical world, and the consequent dislike of sexuality per se, especially female. This dualism also included the idea of Jesus as 'pure spirit', '[t]he role of the Virgin Mary was therefore very much reduced: for some, she was the symbol of the Church, for others a woman through whom Christ had passed in order to appear in spiritual form on earth' (The World of the Troubadours: Medieval Occitan Society, c. 1100- c. 1300, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1993, p. 335). She also notes that while a few women did indeed have the status of perfect, they were few and far between. And, 'Cathars commonly held woman to be an instrument of the Fall of heavenly spririts...some Cathars thought women had to change into men to be admitted to heaven' (p. 251). The desexualised nature of Catharism also jars with the frankly sexualised veneration of the troubadours. Regarding inheritance etc., it's a vexed question, but it does appear that under customary law in Occitania, women could inherit at least something, and some did indeed inherit large lands they ruled by their own authority (see Paterson; Fredric L. Cheyette, Ermengard of Narbonne and the World of the Troubadours, Ithaca and London: Cornell University Press, 2001). However, through the twelfth and thirteenth centuries this changed (a classic article is Cheyette, ‘Suum cuique tribuere’, French Historical Studies 6 (1969/70), 287-99; see also F. R. P. Akehurst, ‘The Legal Background of the Troubadours and Trouvères’, The Cultural Milieu of the Troubadours and Trouvères, ed. Nancy van Deusen, Ottawa: Institute of Medieval Studies, 1994). William Paden also has some interesting comments in his introduction to The Voice of the Trobairitz: Perspectives on the Women Troubadours, Philadelphia: Pennsylvania University Press, 1989.In conclusion, I wouldn't link Catharism to the troubadours in any significant way, especially as regards the domna of their lyric. I hope I answered some of your questions! Tobyox 08:04, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)

CJZ and Welsh

Hello, Drachenfyre,

Just saw that your attention was drawn to the same line in the Catherine Zeta Jones article as was mine. I've never seen or heard of her in Welsh-language projects. I'm not altogether sure that she is a Welsh-speaker, native or otherwise. Telsa 14:20, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The original source for the Welsh fluency was, I gather from Gabbe, from IMDb, but IMDb lists no Welsh-language projects in her filmography. I hadn't heard that about chatting with Hopkins -- indeed, I wasn't aware that he spoke it either -- but I am happy to be corrected. I have never heard/seen her on S4C/Radio Cymru, but I don't have them on 24 hours a day and only started learning the language long after she departed for Hollywood. You're quite right about the house, incidentally: there has been much coverage in the local paper. (I live in Swansea.) Anyway, I shall try to find out about this once and for all. For every reference I find claiming she speaks Welsh, I find another (often in Welsh) saying she doesn't. Baffling. It would be nice if Wikipedia had it right, whichever the answer is! Telsa 18:16, 1 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Kingdom of Heaven

I haven't figured anything more out about Isabella yet...I don't think there is a clear answer, there was just too much chaos at the time.

The movie was entertaining I suppose, but barely historical...the best part was Raynald's execution, I think. I can see where they have taken other things directly from William or Ernoul, and I can understand why some things are extremely simplified. But the reason you've never read that Balian was a blacksmith from France is because he wasn't :) And Ibelin wasn't a dusty piece of land either! My biggest problem was not with the characters, but with geography - Saladin crosses the Jordan and then goes to Kerak, for example. Oh well. Adam Bishop 22:42, 10 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I was going by the claim - otherwise, there are two years where the kingship is vacant, essentially. I suppose we could say in the box that Guy claimed it and Isabella was the eventual true heir.
By the way, where are you getting the info about the relationship between Balian and Sibylla? I am unfamiliar with that. Adam Bishop 04:27, 11 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I see...yeah I still have the Medieval Women book in the pile of books in my room, I just haven't looked at it yet! :) Thanks! I wish there was an English translation of Ernoul, but I'll look there too. Adam Bishop 05:18, 11 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
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