Talk:Nadar (caste)

An entry from Nadar (caste) appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know? column on 4 April, 2007.

Wikipedia

EVIDENCE FOR Relation between Sengunthars/ Kaikolars and Devadasis

1. The following is quoted from a legitimate third party website. http://globalindiamissions.org/newsletter/nwsltr0802.htm

The Kaikolan are a large Tamil and Telugu caste of weavers. There are seventy-two subdivisions (nadu or desams). Their name comes from a mythical hero and from the words "kai" (hand) and "koi" (shuttle). They consider the different parts of the loom to represent various gods and sages. They are also known as Sengundar, which means a red dagger, which is traced to the legend of the earth being harassed by demons, which led to the people asking the god Shiva to help them.

Traditionally, one girl in every family was set apart to be dedicated to temple service and becomes a "Devdasi" (meaning female servant of god). In the temple, the girl is considered married to the temple deity but in practice becomes a prostitute, especially to the Brahmans and she learns traditional music and dancing.

2. The following is journal research article with abundant valid references. This is as legitimate as it gets.

This article talks in much detail about how women from the Sengundhar/ Kaikola caste get into the sacred prostitution in temples.

"Contending identities: Sacred prostitution and reform in colonial South India Priyadarshini Vijaisri A1, A1 Centre for the Study of Developing Societies (CSDS), New Delhi" South Asia: Journal of South Asian Studies Publisher: Routledge, part of the Taylor & Francis Group Issue: Volume 28, Number 3 / December 2005 Pages: 387 - 411

To view the complete article just register, its free.

Here are the links :

http://journalsonline.tandf.co.uk/link.asp?id=jv31l27518262711 If you cannot access it then just go to the following page and follow one of the links

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Contending+identities%3A+Sacred+prostitution+and+reform+in+colonial+South+India

3. This is taken from another legitimate webiste http://www.go2southasia.org/l_peoples.html of a world renknown organisation recognised by many countries. They have no gain in just picking on the Sengunthar caste.

The KAIKOLAR people are a caste of weavers 1.5 million strong in southern India. They are Hindus and view different parts of the loom as representations of various gods and sages. Traditionally, each Kaikolar family sets aside one daughter to serve in a Hindu temple. That daughter is considered married to the temple deity—often the Hindu destroyer god Shiva. In practice, the daughter becomes a temple prostitute.

All 3 of the above references are quite legitimate and I can quote many more. There is no question of coincidence or any error in any of these sources.

1. Please sign your messages with four tildes: ~~~~.
2. The first and last sources are religious, and neither looks very reliable (the latter in particular). The second - the one from which you don't quote - costs £13.00 to view. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 08:20, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Delete This article

The details/information given in Nadar_caste is without any references and is found fallacious as per the Link[1]. This is the offical web site Nadar Caste. So please delete this article as its protected and not able to put any tag. Yes; this website is full of incorrect information and make false claims. Please allow us to make corrections in this article by removing the protection.

Castes have "official" websites now? utcursch | talk 12:45, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes i do agree, but i could not get an reference or links that seems to authorize the claims of this article. So please delete this article Tn pillai 08:19, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

British Education of Nadars

I think British Education of Nadars should be merged with this article. It's a short, unsourced article that probably doesn't deserve a separate article. utcursch | talk 12:45, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

The author/authors could not get an reference or links that seems to authorize the claims of this article. So please delete this article an urgent basis Tn pillai 08:20, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

This article is not faulty

This article provides a proper information about the Nadar community. I don't find it faulty. It gives extra information about the caste and they are genuine as per books like "The Nadars of Tamilnad"(Robert.L.Hardgrave). There are also other books which asserts the genuineness of this passage. I wish to know the faulty portion of this passage. The whole passage cannot possibly be false and completely irrelevant to the fact. I can prove this effectively. Sites like Nadarsangam.com expose very few points of the community. The History of the Nadars is a very vast topic and even this passage provides very little information. The passage should be elongated to shed more light to this ancient Tamil community...Pandiyann 09:07, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Caste ism in wikipedia!!

I think Mr.Tn pillai here is trying to aggravate the fame of a reputed caste. The highest of the Nadars were in those days called as Nadans(wealthy landlords). Nadan was in fact a subcaste of the community which is today known as Nadars. The Nadans fused with the shanans,another subcaste, to enhance the community's prosperity. For eg,kongu vellalar is a sub caste of the vellalars. But they are seperate castes today as they were isolated for some specific reason at some point in time. Imagine if they were to fuse today and form a unique caste. This is what happened to the Nadars a century ago. The subcastes of an ancient race united and were together known as nadars. The term 'Nadar' was extracted from Nadan, which used to be the highest of all the subcastes. Not all nadars climbed trees to make a living! A caste was named according to a person's job. The term 'Nadan' was given to these people because they were actually rulers of some specific locality. 'Nadan' was a title given to kings of the ancient pandiyanadu. A reputed school called PKN(PandiyaKulaKshatriyaNadar) in Madurai stands testimony to my above arguement. I still have many points to prove this is right. But i dont want to waste my time to prove a fact!Pandiyann 09:07, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Nadars were never landlords. provide academic sources to backup your claim. The shanars renamed themselves as nadars just as pallars renamed themselves as devendra kula vellalars and konars renamed themselves as yadavas. your claim: Nadan was title given to pandyan king. this is fuking ridiculous. Don't lie. pandyan itself is the title of the king. Do you even know what the title means?Nedunchezian 03:43, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Nadars are a royal race!

"The nadars are a proud warrior race." I wonder why this line was excluded from the passage. In ancient times the art now called kalari varma was only taught to a king or his soldiers. It was an art which was exclusively meant for the aristocratic kshatriyas. Noone else was allowed know the secrets of this ancient art. It was strictly prohibited for the others to learn it. It is an universal fact that the Kaniyakumari Nadars are the ones preserving the cultures of this art throughout many centuries. This is again another point to prove that the nadars were a royal race. I am just getting warmed up. I dont want an article about the nadar to be hosted by Wikipedia without these essential points. It's better to delete this article rather than letting it get modified by people like tn.pillai! I still dont understand what he is trying to prove!!Pandiyann 09:08, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

This is bullshit. where are the proofs. Please show me a proof saying that such and such a king was a nadar. otherwise stop ranting. Nadars are a backward caste. Do you want proof for this? This is analogous to affirmative action for some of the groups in the USofA.Nedunchezian 03:46, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Read the full article

Read the full article u,idiot. I have submitted the appropriate proofs! Shut up,if u don't know a shit about our caste. And don't come back to write dog shit. I warn u.Pandiyann 17:18, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Please provide refernces

The websites dont tell all those you say please go thru the links http://www.nadarsangam.com/

Read the history. It says the old name of Nadars were Shanars. The name nadar came in 1921 only when British refernced them in the census as nadar. Also the word nadu is not common in TN apart from its name. SO how the claims are varified

Tn pillai 11:09, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Nadar's royal history with proof

I think ought to read more books tnpillai. He asks us to refer a site called nadarsangham.com. I think he just cant understand English.The same site states that a subcaste called Nadan existed even in the late 19thcentury as per the link http://www.nadarsangam.com/history.html. It also says that some Nadars claim that the Nadans were petty local chieftains, who were the heirs of the fallen Pandya dynasty. And this link here from the same site http://www.nadarsangam.com/whattheydo.html tells us of their occupation.It states"Some wealthy landlords had no manual labor instead they collected revenue from the isolated settlements. They were called as " Nadans" a title which translates as " Lords of the Lands". The Nadans served as representatives of the Nayaks and later the Muslims rulers of Madurai and Tiruchi area to whom they paid a part of the revenue they collected".

This site here http://nadar.kuttyjapan.com/nadar-history.asp tells us a great deal about the Nadans. As per the site,there were around five endogamous units within the Category "Nadar" were concentrated in different parts of southern districts of Tamil Nadu (then MADRAS STATE). Each was associated with a particular occupation. While the community as a whole was regarded from the out-side as "toddy-tappers", there was significant occupational diversity within the community - although this represented more a division of labour in the cultivation of the palmayra palm. The five units or "jati" were traditionally endogamours, and while there were no commensal restrictions, each was ranked hierarchically within the Nadar Category.

Four of the jati were relatively small, and it was within the largest, of the jati that the most significant distinctions were to be found. Although lacking the sanction of mythology, the unit was sengmented into two basic and effectively endagamous group:

1.the climbers who extracted the juice from the palmyra and
2.the Nadans, the "Land of the Land", the aristorcrats of the community who held sway over the regions of Nadar concentration in the "Tinnevelly" now called "Thirunelveli". These lines are exactly taken from site mentioned above(nadar.kuttyjapan.com). This clearly explains that there were many kinds of nadars and the fact that not all nadars were toddy-tappers. It also reveals that not all nadars were considered as low castes. This point is very clear.

These links below tells us that the Nadars were warriors and very familiar with kalari varma,an art which was only learned by kings or soldiers of ancient times: http://www.gemify.com/private/hrpt/varmam.html http://www.spa.ex.ac.uk/drama/staff/kalari/healharm.html http://www.answers.com/topic/kalarippayattu http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varma_ati I kindly ask tn.pillai to go through these links carefuly before blabbering. The first links(gemify.com) clearly states that the nadars or gramini(a subcaste of Nadar) were ancient ruling tribes of India and practiced kalari varma. The second link(spa.ex.ac.uk/drama/staff/kalari) states that kalari varma was traditionally practiced by kallars and nadars,the two warrior castes of the ancient pandiya nadu. The third link describes that the nadars are an ancient warrior race! I don't know what's bothering tn.pillai. Maybe it's because of the fact that we nadars have become far superior to the vellalars in each and every manner. You better get used to it,tn.pillai. Because we are not through yet. I ask wikipedia to delete this article or host it as it used to be. Interfering with nadar affairs is a serious issue. I hope tn.pillai knows what he's up against. I never said that the maravas and vellalas don't come from a royal race. I am just trying to say that this article is very genuine. In addition to these proofs,there are also many books,by famous authors,which confirm that my argument is correct. Pandiyann 18:44, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Royal Race of TN

How come you claim of Royal race of TN are Nadars!! The royal races are Vellalas and maravars.. read this articles http://www.sangam.org/articles/view2/?uid=1005

http://www.sangam.org/articles/view2/?uid=1128

http://www.tamilnation.org/forum/sivaram/920715lg.htm

All article ratify that Nadars are toddy tapper caste of TN. And Vellalas and maravars are real warrior and royal races of TN.

The Nattavas (referced in this article)are not nadars they are Nattampadi vellala, a vellalar sect , who were landlord and warriors. Tn pillai 04:57, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

please dont delete

Please dont delete comments. This is a discussion forum. Also please dont add any comments without signatures. Tn pillai 04:57, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Nadars and Nadans

I do agree that Nadans are cheftiens. However nadans doesnt point to Nadars. It just mean a higher status. So the case of Nattavas. They are nattampadi vellalas who were warriors and is one of 64 Naayanars which referred in sangam age. The name of the caste nadars itself was not in use during olden times. It was only in 1921 this name came into picture.

In kanyakumari district, some of the channars(same as nadars) were also practised kalari, a martial art of kerala, since it was practised by many communities in Travancore including nairs and pillai (both from vellala caste). Ezhavas also practised same. That doesnt mean that Nadars and ezhavas are from warrior caste. Since ezhavas were also in toddy tapping in olden times (though they wont accept now and even claim as royal race like nadars). And both in TN and kerala, nairs and vellalas are considrered upper caste while nadars and ezhavas consider lower by the Government . Please follow the article below including Government Website

• List of backward(lower) caste Link[[2]]
• Request to add in OBC list in karanataka by nadars Link[[3]]
• Strike to allow tap toddy by nadar caste members link[[4]]
• The research book on northern nadars says they are a low Indian caste, in terms of status, power, and wealth. Link[5]]

I am not against any caste including Nadar caste. Just wanted to authenticate the content of the article. Lets discuss this from all four corners and in right spirit. Tn pillai 05:23, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Government rules have nothing to do with a caste

"I do agree that Nadans are cheftiens. However nadans doesnt point to Nadars"-tn pillai. I still don't understand what he meant by that. Tn.pillai can't even write proper english here and he is trying to explain things written in english which he can't possibly understand. I just posted a number of links here which clearly stated that the nadars were a warrior race and it seems that tn pillai has cunningly deleted it.I am definitely wasting my time with an absolute imbecile who's coming back to square one of the argument. He mentioned something about government rules. As per the government rules he mentioned,the thevars(maravars) come under the most backward category. Does that mean that the thevars are a low caste? Are they lower than the vellalars? Definitely not,of course. The government rule is not at all based on the caste hierarchy. It is strictly based on education. If a specific caste has a large number of illiterates, the people of that caste will be considered as backward. You can't use that stupid policy which is completely an educational issue to judge a caste. I have strongly agreed that a part of the nadar commnunity still do toddy-tapping. But that does'nt mean everyone in the caste is a toddy-tapper for generations. The Nadar community of today is actually the fusion of many sub-castes. There are many kinds of nadars. And many of them don't consider toddy-tapping as their traditional occupation. It's a universal fact. You can ask any nadar about this . Not all nadars were considered as low castes as per the links I have posted in my previous article. The nadars who were typical toddy-tappers are known as Panneri chanans.'Panneri 'means palm tree climbers. It's the lowest subcaste of the Nadars. I hope things are finally entering the thick skull of tnpillai. Now let's come to the vellalar issue. The term vellalar in ancient tamil means uzhavar ie., which means farmer. It is also evident that the vellalars had ties with the caste which is now known as Devendrakula vellalars(pallars). Pallars were traditionally farmers as well. That's why they claim the title 'Vellalar' ie.,farmers. How can a farmer be a warrior? Do they farm and fight? I doubt so. Tn.pillai here is actually posting sites which is obviously written by a vellalar and then trying to create baseless history. Anyone can write crap and make it a web page! Don't think I don't know anything about your caste tnpillai. I think it's high time you come out and speak to me directly like a farmer! Oops,warrior? This link here proves their relevance with the pallar caste. http://www.tamilnation.org/caste/ramaiah.htm (Go through the topic called Genesis of Pallars) Pandiyann 12:44, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

pillai

The research book on northern nadars says they are a low Indian caste, in terms of status, power, and wealth. have you forgotten to read this? Tn pillai 04:34, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

please read the article Mukkulathor to know about the race of vellar Tn pillai 05:01, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Pallar is scheduled caste and nothing to do with vellars. They more similar to Nadars as both the nadars and pallars are never allowed to enter in places of workship , own land and wear blouses(for females) by vellalas/thevars/ayyars in TN. They considered untouchables and polluting caste jut like nadars in TN. In kerala nairs and pillais never allowed the nadars to enter in places of workship , own land and wear blouses(for females)Tn pillai 05:31, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

i do agree the main occupation of nadars are not just toddy tapping, but also include brewing arrack, climbing coconut palm for coconuts, selling arrack, selling toddy. As traders they own toddy shop, arrack shop(sarayam kadai) etc Tn pillai 05:47, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

No deletion,please!

As tn.pillai,said. Don't delete these details. It's a conversation page! Pandiyann 18:48, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I have not deleted th comments with signature Tn pillai 04:08, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Old Tamil!

How do you know old Tamil? Then nadu itself was not in tamil,howcome the nadar evolved from from it? You have not replied on many of my comments !!

I am not here to discuss about vellalars, we can create separate thread/discussion for that. However since you have commented on them, i am just replying to that.

who told vellalas are farmers? Then visit the article pillai. Most the kingdoms based in TN are from vellala caste. So the case travancore. In the case of travancore, for most of the earlier kings, pillai also part of the surname alongwith varma. How come word vellalar name come from uzhavar!!! It has come vel means weapon in tamil. So what does it mean? who are real warriors?

I can agree that some nadar families in kanaykumari have some martial tradition being part of old travancore, so the case of some families in madurai. That doesnt mean that all nadars or majority of them are warriors. So it's totally idiotic to call nadars are royal race.

If nadars can claim that its came from word nadu, then vellalars claim that its name come from velutha alwar means fair skinned rulers. But for nadars these are all just a claim, noone in the world is going to agree with it even if you put those demerited facts in wikipedia.Tn pillai 04:22, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

websites

A nadar family website http://www.parisuthamfamily.com/history/parisutham.htm They say their traditional profession is ‘kallu irakkuthal’ means tapping toddy.

Other reference from article of Prof from Department of Science of Religion University of Durban-Westivlle is given here

http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9903&L=indology&H=1&P=23450 please go through all. these are the article not written by memebrs of any ogther caste from tamil nadu Tn pillai 05:56, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

My conclusion

Tn.pillai speaks as if he is very familiar with ancient tamil. I think I have answered all your questions,perfectly. I don't know which question I did'nt answer. Dravidians who did cultivation, using water were called "Vellalas" as per the book 'Castes & Tribes of South India' (by ET.Thurston, VII pg361). This is not some site which is written by a vellalar. It's a book of fact. As we all know the dravidians are people with dark skin. They can't possibly be a race of fair-skinned people. Tn.pillai is obviously bluffing about his caste and is purposely trying to aggravate the fame of our caste. This can only mean one thing. Casteism. He is trying to boast that he is from a superior race and does'nt care a damn about the beliefs of other castes. He is childishly insisting that all nadars(the third largest caste of Tamil nadu) climbed trees and are still climbing trees to make a living. I ll repeat what I said. Like the difference between a kongu vellalar and a vellala pillai. Like kallars and maravars,the nadars too had many subcastes. The lowest of all the nadars were called as panneri chanans. They served the other wealthy nadars. But that does'nt mean they are inferior to the wealthy nadars. They too had a glorious past. They worked because they were poor due to certain circumstances. As tn.pillai said these nadars were considered as low castes. But that does'nt mean the whole nadar community of today were toddy-tappers. That is highly stupid. How can a caste which is considered low have wealthy,inherently rich jamins and mirasdars. In those days that kind of status was only achievable by an upper caste land lord. The wealthy Nadars owned their own temples. He is also trying to say that thevars and vellalars are the same which is again another tall tale. There is a saying in tamil 'Veli vantha vellalar'ie., which means at some point in time the vellalars wanted to join the mukkulathore. But the mighty thevars found them to be too weak and chased them away. If we are a polluting caste,how would it be possible for us to reside near a thevar's house in places like Usilampatti(a village ruled by thevars) where casteism still exists strongly. Tn.pillai is just uttering non-sense here. And you better watch out when speaking about the nadars. Really. I mean if you are like traced out just imagine your situation. The Nadars were never considered as an untouchable caste! You are about to get squashed. I don't know if Nadar really means Nadu+alwar or not. But what I do know is that kings of the ancient pandiya empire used the title' Nadan'. Not nattavas or nattar. They used this title specifically. This is another pure fact.
I finally come to my conclusion. Did you read the article about the pallars,tn.pillai? The pallars which was considered to be an untouchable caste were actually rulers of the pallava empire at a time [6]. How can an untouchable caste rule? This clarifies that the indian caste system was fraught with faults. If the pallars have nothing to do with the vellalars why are they using the title of your caste. I don't see them using our title?! Almost every tamil caste ,including the untouchable castes like parayas,pallas, did have a glorious past and it is very evident that they were all warrirors at a time. The traditional occupation of most of the castes were agriculture. It's a fact and the only perfect fact. Next time try to understand the beliefs of others. Refer books like 'The Nadars of tamilnad(by Robert.L.Hardgrave) and Dravidian Lineages-The Nadars through ages(by Dr.Immanuel) for more details about our caste.Pandiyann 07:07, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Vellalar

Dravidians who did cultivation, using water were called "Vellalas"  !! thats too much. Nobody can do cultivation without water...So only vellalars did cultivation, that too with water? where is the word thanni (thanni means water in tamil) in it? Or it came from Vellam ( means water in Malyalam)? shocking !!!!! Man ,vellalars one of the oldest cast in South india, they here When the word malyalam itself was not heard of. !!

No fair skinned people? what about Ayyars and vellars then? Tn pillai 11:55, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Tnpillai, are you kongu vellala? I'm not vellala but only kongu vellala are ganga vamsa vellala and probably have some aryan lineage. other tamil vellalas are dravidians and were called sudravaal by the brahmins. the whole anti-brahmin movement is based upon this. Whom are bullshitting, duuuh ?Nedunchezian 03:36, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Vellalars are dravidians

I didn't bluff about that,tn pillai. Just find that book I mentioned and then go through it. The vellalars are pure dravidians indeed. "Nobody can do agriculture without water". You are just too smart. I agree. But that line wasn't writen by me. It's a line from a book. You should go through it. Or atleast go through the article about the vellalars which is here in wikipedia [[7]]. I am not here to criticize the vellalars. I know a great deal about them. It is a prominent tamil caste. I agree. Iyers are not pure dravidians. The party called DMK actually came into existence to destroy the ways of the brahmanical castes. It was a party developed to support the dravidian castes and was designed by a mudhaliar(a sort of vellalar),C.N.Annadurai. He was a dark dravidian. I am a dravidian too. I respect the beliefs of all the dravidian castes. Pandiyann 02:29, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Screw the vellalars, this page is full of false and misleading info, who are the Nadar kings? The claim: "initial Pandyas were Nadars" needs a citation otherwise it must be removed (else get ready for a war). Just because you can edit wiki doesn't mean shit until you show some valid references. Nadars are a toddy tapping caste. But I do agree that they were suppressed.

Another bold claim is that Nattars are actually Nadars. Are all Nadars liars and pretentious or is it just you ? Whom are kidding? Do you mean to say pudding and putting mean the same thing. Nedunchezian 03:32, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
War! Oh,sure. Try me...-Pandiyann 12:07, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Really :0, i know who you are. you can jump across articles. you can play both sides as pillai and pandiyann while you belong to neither nadar nor pillai. is this the best you can come up with ?

Talk about bull shit! Mess with my caste again, I swear u ll have to face serious consequences. Give me your goddamn address, so that I can prove u I am a nadar. How dare u write non-sense about our caste!! Who's talking about nattar,stupid? I am talking about 'Nadan' the highest among the nadars. They were always called as 'nadans'. We were NEVER considered as untouchables! Read books instead of stupid web-pages. Give ur fat ass some work. READ THE BOOKS I HAVE MENTIONED and even more if you want. They are not written by morons such as you. Then act smart,smart ass....Pandiyann 17:30, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

boohoo, i'm so scared :(: pnadynan dserpeatley tyrnig ot pvore taht he is a ndaar. but the dsepreoaitn siknts of.. ah c'mon you konw hwo. Nalankilli 17:51, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
I am so scared! Duh. Why the hell are you not giving ur address if you arent scared! I mean,you are so brave,right???

Coward!!

No i really am scared: loser. damn, i like this. Now c'mon i'm waiting to see the video of you climbing the tree. quick.

Nadars From Lanka

i have not said that vellalars are aryans. because i dont know abt that. nobody can prove that they are aryans or dravidians. this is case most of indian castes. Even nadars cannot claim that. Because most of nadars concentrated in south . in north they are migrants from south and not indigenous. So that means they are not part common TN caste and social setup. So what that means? they might be migrants from Lanka. who knows? Tn pillai 04:34, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

The article with proofs

The article has been finally edited with the appropriate proofs. Messing up with the history of the nadars is a serious issue. This is my last warning!!Pandiyann 18:48, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

the loser pandiyann is not a nadar. this person has been editing across articles using multiple ids like pandiyann, tnpillai to instigate conflicts between different castes. well i see that you're crying already, now now, c'mon, i'm just getting warmed up.

Give me ur fuckin address and then speak,you idiot.Pandiyann 03:09, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Recent shenanigans

I've moved the article back to its original name; the move hadn't been discussed, and not only was the new name badly formed, but the host of double redirects had been left uncorrected. The article has also been subjected to a huge number of edits, few explained or given sources. I see that the editors involved are now hurling abuse at each other; if that continues they'll both be blocked from editing. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 17:45, 27 May 2007 (UTC)