Talk:Falun Gong

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Olaf Stephanos (talk | contribs) at 23:25, 18 May 2007 (→Samuel and his puppet show). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Template:Article probation

Notice: Samuel Luo and Tomananda are banned from editing this article indefinitely
The users specified have been banned by the Arbitration committee from editing this article. These users are also prevented from discussing or proposing changes on this talk page.

Posted by Srikeit 06:43, 9 May 2007 (UTC) for the Arbitration committee. See Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Falun Gong.[reply]

Template:Mediation

WIKIPEDIA IS NOT A FALUN GONG DISCUSSION FORUM! Please, add new messages pertaining to editing the FLG article at the bottom of this page.
A panel has been recently set up to discuss the content of the article as opposed to just debate in a prove-disprove cycle. You may contribute to this discussion at /Introduction
The discussions on sections of Origin and History are found at /History

Archived discussions

It is suggested that new readers of this "talk page" read the archived discussions below. It is likely that an issue of concern has already been discussed. As a result, a would-be poster can save the Wikipedian community time and effort spent on otherwise rehashing an issue if this responsbility is undertaken.
Please remember that this isn't the place to vent our spleens in condemnation or gush praise for Falun Gong itself as much as it is to comment on the actual article content. If we have an objectively neutral, factual article one hopes the truth will speak for itself, however we may subjectively perceive it.

Mediation update

The Mediation Committee is currently discussing whether or not it is possible for mediation of Falun Gong articles to continue. We appreciate your patience and any input you have to offer here. For the Mediation Committee, Martinp23 20:06, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Request for editing restriction on the Falun Gong page

I know that in the past, maybe about 6 months ago or so, the Falun Gong mainpage (and perhaps the subpages as well) had an editing restriction. I don't remember the details of it, but I believe it was that a user had to have been registered for at least a week before being able to edit the article. With a number of unregistered users having come and made very POV edits recently, which admins have had to revert, I think adding this restriction again would bring some order. I also find it interesting that all of these unregistered users have come all at once and so soon after Tom and Sam were banned. Interesting. Mcconn 14:15, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

correction - most of the users that have been editing have been newly registered users with extremely limited or no edit history, and without a user page. In light of this, does anyone have any ideas about something that can be done? Mcconn 17:48, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Reading some of the archives I support this, will make them have to at least register beforehand opening them up for checkuser. Obscurans 04:43, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It is absolutely necessary that newly registered users won't be able to edit this article. What are editors like User:Gtyh, User:Fufg, User:Devilmaycryfan and User:IamYueyuen doing here?! These articles are under attack by anonymous vandals who only seek to preserve Samuel's legacy. In fact, I believe this whole thing is orchestrated by someone. Will some administrator put these articles under semi-protection? ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 07:03, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
A-ha! So it was confirmed! Kent888 was a sockpuppet of Samuel Luo! [1] Evidently that wretched malefactor stops at nothing. I bet that quite a few of these new editors can be traced back to San Francisco. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 11:08, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Olaf, this can never justify you editing other users' pages. Editing Samuel's main user page, after he was banned indefinitely, shows you to be just as intolerant as before of anything critical of Falun Gong. Please cite a Wiki rule that bans personal pages being posted on one's own user page. There is pushing the limits, and clearly stepping over the line. This latest action of yours clearly falls into the latter. This action alone makes a total mockery of all the 'objectivity' you preached about before and adherence to Wiki rules!!! (After all, remember how you condemned users editing pro-FG user pages' links???) Jsw663 12:18, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Samuel is a Wikipedia criminal and no longer a legitimate user. I'm sorry, but I still haven't seen you condemn what he's done to us and these articles. And I'm still waiting for that apology for confusing us with NuclearBunnies and his vandal buddies. I'm not going to touch Samuel's page anymore, but his website won't be included in the article, either.
Seriously speaking, I don't want to fight with you, Jsw663. Let's just focus on improving these pages. You came across as quite reasonable by not trying to singlehandedly revert my edits today. I think we should basically sweep the table clear and move on. Let me just give you a small advice: if you want to appear more neutral and balanced, you ought to honestly admit that Samuel and Tomananda deserved their ban. The ArbCom is not that biased. Only one ArbCom member out of ten would have placed them on revert parole. Surely you understand what deep frustration I and many others experienced while these two crusaders bounced us around for over a year. In response to these actions, several pro-FLG editors made mistakes as well, of course. I'm not denying that. But the root cause was rightly identified by the ArbCom.
But again, thanks for your apparent cooperation (compared to many other editors); I still intend to make these articles featured, and cooperation is just what we need to achieve that. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 14:38, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
UPDATE: Just wanted to point this out: according to checkuser, Yueyuen and Samuel Luo share the same IP address. [2] I'm dumbfounded. This guy is really something. "Yueyuen" has been around for a year! See my post below. This is far more egregious than that. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 15:49, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Now that I saw on User:Blnguyen's talk page that you were already aware of these sockpuppets on May 12, why didn't you tell us anything, Jsw663? Imagine if pro-FLG editors had been resorting to long-term sockpuppetry? You'd be better off and earn more respect by honestly admitting that you are not neutral and balanced. It would be really hard to come across as anything but biased at this point. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 11:34, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ban template

"At the end of the ban, any user may remove this notice." - just looks funny when it's an indef ban. Maybe a new template without the remove-me line. Obscurans 04:43, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed it. --Fire Star 火星 04:47, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Changing the Title

I wish to point out that the term "suppression" used in the subtitle "suppression of Falun Gong" is hardly used in 3rd party literature. The UN, The amnesty International, HRW, papers from Rutgers, Harvard, New York University, U.S Congress resolution 188, The National Review, CNN all refer to it as "Persecution".

I wish to point out this article from New York University : http://lass.calumet.purdue.edu/cca/gmj/OldSiteBackup/SubmittedDocuments/Fall2005/graduate/non_referreed/Yang-Invited.htm

In my opinion the term "suppression" does not represent whats happening in China- which includes, according to reports by ex- Canadian MPs who investigated the issue ( http://organharvestinvestigation.net/ ) , harvesting of Organs from live practitioners, torture and killings.

I have not seen the term "suppression" being used to describe something of this sort in any literature on Falun Gong from a reputed source.

I also want to point out that, if I remember right, the article originally carried the title "Persecution of Falun Gong" which was later changed to "suppression" by some editors. Mainly, the editors recently banned. Attempts to fix this through discussion failed owing to constant reverts by these editors.

Dilip rajeev 07:58, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above are all Western (and human rights) sources who all have a jaundiced view of the Chinese government. The UN source relies almost entirely on (pro-)Falun Gong sources, which is suspicious in itself. Let's not try to twist neutrality into subjectivity! You are fully aware already about the debate that China's official position is that it never persecutes FGers, so suppression was a compromise. Persecution assumes what Falun Gongers say are completely true facts that are verifiable, but after examination of such documents the test fails. Also read my reply on how the Holocaust cannot be compared with FG situation, and how China's view with respect to Falun Gongers is similar to US' view on Marxist guerillas and extremist Muslim jihadists. Let's not carry personal political bias onto supposedly encyclopedic pages!!! Jsw663 12:22, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There are 6 billion humans on this planet and what you said above was just your point of view. What matters is what reputable sources say. It may be normal in CCP to kill innocent people and extract organs from live people. And if you think HR organizations and western countries all have have a "jaundiced" view when they speak against such terrible crimes, it is just your POV.
There is absolutely no question of "compromises" here. If the international community and organizations of authority in the field like the Amnesty International sees it as a persecution we are obliged to use the term persecution in the articles. It is not what you think or I think that matters.
It is not what "FGers" (whatever that means) say that was quoted in the intro but words directly sourced from Amnesty International and other highly reputed sources. Do you think good natured people practicing Qi Gong exercises are making up some stories of a persecution? If you really think Falun Gong practitioners are not persecuted in China would you dare go to Beijing and declare aloud that you practice Falun Gong? Friend, I request you take a good look at your own mentality. Am not asking for lawyers' arguments but just asking you to be true to your own conscience.
Dilip rajeev 15:10, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Hey, I never denied the Amnesty International quote its place in the introduction, but it needs to be in the appropriate place. There is a place for 'other sources' and a place to be informative. Once again learn to control your bias. Jsw663 18:44, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Introduction

I've tried to restore some of what was discussed before to provide balance. Users like Dilip are tilting the balance so it is completely one-sided. Olaf's bias is also indicative in not restoring balance in the introduction. FG has taken up most of the rest of the article (i.e. besides the pre-intro), but the pre-intro should not set a particular tone already, and should only provide a brief overview of the situation. Note also I've tried to reorganize the sections so that each paragraph contains a bit of the pro-FG and a bit of the anti-FG side in roughly equal fashion. If you dispute this balance, please say why!!! Jsw663 12:35, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Facts as cited by reputed sources are what matters. If the facts turn out to be "pro-Falun Gong" we are obliged to present it so. It is not a matter of pro-anti POV balance.
Dilip rajeev 14:52, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not against "balance", as long as all text is verifiable, well-sourced and attributed. If there are more reports that seem favourable to Falun Gong, it's just a reflection of the opinions held in the scientific and international community, and the article should reflect this relationship between majority and minority viewpoints. I don't think there are too many people who oppose the persecution simply because it's the CCP who carries it out; they are against the CCP because it persecutes Falun Gong practitioners and other dissidents. That's the cause and effect. The Chinese government can only blame itself for getting stuck in the muck. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 15:18, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
For our purposes, it doesn't matter why a person is motivated to act the way they do. Only that there are secondary sources that say what they do. If you look at the language at our Tiananmen massacre article: "Following the violence, the government conducted widespread arrests to suppress protestors and their supporters, cracked down on other protests around China, banned the foreign press from the country and strictly controlled coverage of the events in the PRC press." That is a standard journalistic formula, reporting what happened drily and succinctly, without the added freight of an accusatory word like persecution. We can say that X and Y source call it persecution, but we shouldn't. In English, the academic passive voice is the convention for neutral presentation of an issue. An entire suite of editors not being satisfied with that voice is what got this article put on probation, if you'll recall. --Fire Star 火星 15:46, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You are right, Fire Star, and that's why I changed the word "persecution" in the introduction to "crackdown", as you may see. This term has been employed by all sides. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 15:51, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Cheers. I do recommend that our editors look at the way other Wikipedia articles, good articles, handle similar situations, like Tiananmen mentioned above. Besides having the nice side effect of consistency within the project, they may save us a lot of discussion time by acting as practical templates for these articles if they are agreeable. --Fire Star 火星 15:58, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Once again, thanks for being the voice of reason, Fire Star. I personally have no objections to the word 'crackdown', even if I know for sure some anti-FG people will protest heavily against this. Another article that should be looked at for good quality BALANCE is Globalization, another controversial topic but now rated GA due to its balance. I think this is how the FG article should proceed. Please let me know if y'all agree or not. Jsw663 18:42, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes! That's just what I had in mind. --Fire Star 火星 02:12, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Samuel and his puppet show

Based on the checkuser performed by User:Dmcdevit, I'd like to inform everybody that the following editors have been sockpuppets of Samuel Luo: User:Pirate101, User:Yueyuen, User:Kent888, User:Kent8888 and User:Mr.He. I'm sorry for not having believed HappyInGeneral and some other editors as they suspected this earlier on. Samuel is not only banned from Wikipedia; he's probably one of its biggest vandals of all time. I don't understand why nobody checked this out earlier. From now on, we must be extremely careful with any new editors who come in and start making significant changes to the articles. It's probable that Samuel will try to continue his deception from other IP addresses. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 16:20, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I remember CovenantD being shut down rather forcefully when he tried to get a checkuser run on Samuel Luo about a year ago. I'm sure that had the effect of stifling inquiries at the time for all of us. The user who blocked CovenantD has since been asked to leave, so, while slow, the Wikipedia community perhaps does correct itself over time. At any rate, it is in the past, and since these articles are being more actively monitored by the Wikipedia community generally, I doubt that any disruptive contributions will be allowed to stand for any appreciable time. --Fire Star 火星 16:42, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Incidentally, there is some pretty blatant sockpuppetry going on at Teachings of Falun Gong. I will report it. --Fire Star 火星 16:52, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, User:Foullou, User:Shimanan, User:IamYueyuen, User:Gtyh and User:Fufg are probably Samuel as well. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 17:21, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Samuel keeps vandalizing these articles under different sockpuppets. During the last two hours, he has reverted both Li Hongzhi and Falun Gong. What can we do about this? ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 19:12, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is getting somewhat ridiculous. I am going to protect this page, and have left a note at ANI asking for input wrt to blocks (etc). Thanks, Martinp23 22:00, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to make a note here which applies to everyone in the dispute (I want to make clear firstly that I am not your mediator :)). Please remain civil when dealing with editors who may offend you - edit summaries like this are absolutely unacceptable, and if they continue, blocks may follow. You must keep a cool head when dealing with other editors, even if they are banned and/or get on your nerves. Set an example. On a related issue - looking through the histories of the articles I have protected, and the contribs of the users I have blocked, I see absolutely no vandalism. Ignoring an Arbcomm ruling is by no means vandalism - at worst it can be considered trolling. The assertion above that Samuel Luo is "one of [Wikipedia's] biggest vandals of all time." is frankly laughable - one user using multiple SPAs to attack only a few articles is by no means as bad as some of our worst vandals. Be careful with what you might say in the heat of the moment, in summary :) Martinp23 22:57, 15 May 2007 (UTC) (ps - an RFCU has been filed by me WRT the four accounts I've blocked).[reply]
Thank you Martinp23 for reiterating what I've been saying time and time again to Olaf. However, the words mean very little when it comes from me from Olaf's POV, so I'm glad you repeated the above here to keep these editors in check.
On the issue of Sam's sockpuppets, I was aware of this a few days ago and very surprised, I must admit. However, that does not mean there should be a sharp lurch towards the pro-FG side either to be NPOV. A GA-rated article on Wiki about a fairly controversial topic which seems like a good indication as to how the FG one should proceed is Globalization. Let me know what you all think, as I'm most interested to hear pro-FG views on this. The reason I chose the above entry was because it has the balance that I think this entry should maintain. Let me know if y'all agree or not. Jsw663 18:37, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You're right, Martinp23, I lost my nerves there momentarily, and I apologize for compromising WP:Civility. I acknowledge that the actual scope of Samuel's vandalism doesn't compare with some other people who have behaved even worse, but this is a matter that involves other issues as well. In my eyes, Samuel is more or less directly promoting the agenda of a Communist dictatorship engaged in a genocidal campaign against prisoners of conscience. He has sought to ruin these articles and poison their readers, which, of course, is a matter of interpretation. I think many of his stated opinions are outright fascist, and when he resorts to blatant trolling to push his tendentious edits after being indefinitely banned, you can imagine how many of us, especially those belonging to the targeted group of people or their peers, may feel. This is an extremely complicated dispute with possible reflections on a global scale. In addition, Samuel's sockpuppetry has gone unnoticed for an entire year. Nevertheless, I will mind my speech from now on. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 23:26, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I personally feel its quite obvious. Anyway we need to scrutinize the edits done by the user and the person who was working along with him.
Dilip rajeev 11:15, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There are disturbing resemblances between Olaf and pro-FG action and McCarthyism. You've got the guy banned already; you should now call for immediate protection of ALL FG-related pages. You also are fully aware that Wikipedia has its weaknesses so instead of seeking to impose authoritarian control over certain pages and content, how about working constructively? For starters, you could answer whether the FG page should retain a balance similar to the GA-rated Wiki entry Globalization. Jsw663 12:35, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Now, now, Jsw663, please remember to be civil yourself. I assure you that I just want order and cooperation, not any kind of authoritarian control over these pages or their content. I'm interested about your suggestions, and retaining a balance sounds like a good idea. However, I'd like you to elaborate a bit more about taking Globalization as a model; what does it mean in regard to these articles? Do you have some concrete examples? Also, I'd like you to keep in mind what Asdfg12345 stated on Talk:Suppression_of_Falun_Gong#Please_read:_note_on_working_methods. If there are any changes to be made, we shouldn't straightforwardly revert to a previous version. Referring to your edit summary, "personally I think it is as outrageous as FG claims about the Chinese Gvt, but the FG claims were kept due to your defense of that, so why not this?" [3], you should remember that "any material that is challenged and for which no source is provided may be removed by any editor". (WP:CITE) That applies equally to pro-FLG, anti-FLG and so-called "neutral" material. If you find any unverifiable and poorly sourced pro-FLG material on these pages and you remove it, I don't think anybody's going to start a revert war. There are no excuses for substandard content. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 15:51, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Please cite the instance where I have not been civil myself. Your civility is laid bare for all to see on this entry's main page. Let me quote from Hoerth on the Criticism talk page, who quotes LHZ: "Others may treat us badly, but we can not treat them badly. We must not look upon people as enemies." Li Hongzhi --Hoerth 21:25, 15 April 2007 (UTC) The only editor between the two of us as far as I can see being incivil is the editor comparing Samuel with JW Gacy - you. Once you learn how to properly control your own temper and bias, I am as always interested in what you have to contribute. But you cannot look upon a process as constructive if FGers only seek to revert anything wholesale that challenges any edits without discussion. This is what I mean by civility - if you preach Wiki rules, then learn to live by them, instead of offering excuses of why you breach them and how you escape punishment. It was these wholesale edits that led to edit wars in the first place. Now that one side is removed, this still does not justify these wholesale edits. The link provided on the criticism page of the section FGers seek to excise is clearly a valid link. Like you said yourself, we shouldn't simply revert, so why do you and other FGers persist in doing so even when I propose compromised versions? Talk about incivil!
Furthermore, to back up my accusation at you being incivil (which is not an unique accusation by myself), you said: "Samuel is more or less directly promoting the agenda of a Communist dictatorship engaged in a genocidal campaign against prisoners of conscience." This is a clear example of where you fail to control your own bias and clearly trample on all prospects of civility. Don't mistake my disappointment in you for supporting anti-FG material though. It just means that you should learn to realize that a GA article like Globalization was rated that because it starts off with a descriptive passage (note the neutral but informative language), then gives the pro- and anti- side a roughly equal amount of space to air their case. There is also no restriction for the pro- or anti- side on amount of content on their respective (linked) Wiki entries either. Why would you oppose the format of a GA article unless you wanted to push through an agenda of your own? I'm interested to hear your side of the argument. It's not like I was giving the article a GA-rating - it was done by the consensus of many Wikipedians, including many highly experienced editors (more than you or I). Time to learn from other Wiki articles that were given GA-ratings, instead of just twisting and focusing on Wiki rules to suit your own agenda. Also, civility means a minimum standard of politeness and respect. Strictness does not mean incivility. Calling other editors names, comparing them to "genocidal maniacs", calling others lapdogs of governments etc. is clearly incivility. Jsw663 20:39, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I have given you many examples of your uncivility; one of them is the continued accusations of vandalizing your user pages. You even tried to present this "evidence" to the ArbCom, and you have systematically refused to comment on my inquiries about that. I am aware of my own flaws, and I wholeheartedly agree that I should learn to control my temper and not look upon people as enemies. It is clearly a loophole in my own cultivation, and I am ashamed of some things I've let slip on account of their emotionality. That doesn't mean that I should just tolerate Samuel's deception, fraudulence, hypocrisy and guile, but I can learn to keep my mouth shut when I have nothing substantial to say. Nevertheless, please don't twist my words: I've never called anyone a "lapdog" or a "maniac". I just stated what I believe, and my tone was rather neutral. After all, don't you have anything to say after all we've gotten to know about Samuel? You defend him as if he were simply a slightly overactive little scallywag.
The section I removed from the Criticisms and controversies had a couple of strongly POV sentences that were totally unsourced. The rest, well, I thought it's just not very important or interesting to anyone, but I'm OK with it. If you insist on having it, you should cite the exact words from the original Chinese source and add them to the references. (see: WP:Verifiability#Sources_in_languages_other_than_English)
I never opposed taking another article as a model; in good faith, I asked you to elaborate on this idea that we could possibly develop. I'm taken aback by the aggressive tone in your voice. You seem to take up a defensive position as a matter of principle, as if you were already assured that I would oppose anything you suggest. I know that a good article needs to be neutral, balanced and well-sourced. I absolutely don't have anything against verifiable material from reputable sources that are critical of Falun Gong. The problem with Samuel and Tomananda was that they couldn't really provide us very much of that and insisted on their moonshine instead. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 23:25, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Misplaced template

{{editprotected}} {{Controversial3}} is for the Talk namespace (plus is redundant for a protected page). --h2g2bob (talk) 19:45, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Cheers. --MZMcBride 20:00, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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