Talk:Harold Pinter

[Past discussion archived due to the length of page being over 100 kilobytes, following suggestion of Wikipedia. --NYScholar 21:00, 18 February 2007 (UTC)]

Punctuation of quotations throughout article

Currently correct. See the archived talk pages. The format followed for punctuating quotations in this article is consistently MLA format. Do not change correct punctuation of quotations to incorrect punctuation. These are not so-called "scare quotes." This is American-style punctuation throughout (unless the original quotation is UK-version from original source; original source punctuation is followed at all times; with "[sic]" used to indicate "as is." Do not change; it will created inconsistencies and errors throughout the article if one changes it as a recent editing change did. I restored correct punctuation throughout. See archived talk pages: this article is written consistently in American English, and that is in keeping with Wikipedia guidelines for editing in English Wikipedia (which this is). American English is acceptable in this article. This matter is discussed in the archived talk page (archive 1). --NYScholar 00:41, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

"Incorrect" typography

Please see Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Quotation_marks. Alai 00:44, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I've seen it before. The format is MLA format, which is part of Wikipedia's manual of style and acceptable punctuation usage. You are incorrect. The issue was discussed ages ago on the talk page of the article. Read the talk page and its archive before making such changes. Such changes should not be made disregarding the prevailing format of an article, in this case MLA format. Harold Pinter is an international English literature writer; MLA format is a format style used for articles about literature. It is consistently used in the article. You are using scare quotes and altering original source punctuation. Your UK format is incorrect in an article following MLA format, which is one of the recommended formats in W's manual of style (read the whole thing). I am a professional editor, and I know what I am doing. --NYScholar 00:49, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

The quotation format in this article is American usage. See above. Wikipedia manual of style gives examples of the usage used in this article correctly. Alai is incorrect. --NYScholar 00:54, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Such formatting should not be made disregarding the prevailing format of Wikipedia: once again, please follow the manual of style, and if you wish to suggest any changes to same, please discuss it there. In which instances did I change source punctuation? Please also don't change the source capitalisation, as you've also done (and blanket-reverted). (And please fix your signature, per earlier request.) Alai 00:59, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

At this point, I really do not know what you are talking about. Titles are capitalized according to MLA format; at least they were until you started tinkering with it.

Regarding my signature, in Wikipedia one is allowed to choose preferences. I use four tildes, and my signature posts correctly as is my preference. Please don't harrass me. I don't have time for this. --NYScholar 01:39, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Please don't take this sort of needlessly belligerent tone. "Titles are capitalized according to MLA format": why? It's not the original format, which is what would normally be determinative of such matters, and it doesn't correspond to Wikipedia's style guide, if one were to start "correcting" these to some consistent format. (I shall take the matter of the signature to a more appropriate venue, though as you immediately 'archive' comments to your talk-page unanswered, I shall have to work on what that venue might be.) Alai 01:48, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia guidelines are to follow the prevailing format of an article. This article is highly developed. It has a prevailing format. Your job as an editor is to follow it. See the talk pages. "Original format" is not what MLA follows in capitalizing titles. Capitalization is standardized. It is not "newspaper" format. Newspaper format is not MLA format. MLA format standardizes capitalization: read the rules; they are linked via Wikipedia's own style manual. Due to so many variations among different newspapers in how they render article titles, one standardizes. It is actually incorrect in American English version following MLA format (which this article does and has done for many months) to reproduce titles of articles in newspapers, which do not capitalize words correctly acccording to MLA format. Encyclopedia articles are not newspaper articles. They are formal articles and follow formal formatting requirements. Most Wikipedia editors are not professional editors of peer-reviewed publications and they are not aware of these distinctions. There is no reason, however, to reproduce their errors, no matter how prevalent they are in Wikipedia. This article is about a Nobel laureate in Literature; MLA format is the main format in articles about literature. It is appropriately used in the last version of the article as I edited it. Since then changes have been introduced that I will consider later. I have not got time for this now. --NYScholar 02:04, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

No, the applicable Wikipedia guideline is, 'put the punctuation mark inside the quotation marks only if the sense of the punctuation mark is part of the quotation ("logical" quotations)'. The "prevailing format" clause applies only to the "National varieties of English" section, which is expressly concerned with grammar, spelling, and capitalisation, and not punctuation, for which there's an unambiguous rule. (For quotes, at least, and an explicitly laissez-faire position on matters like the sertial comma.) And at that, only if other considerations don't apply, which needn't concern us at present. It's not appropriate to tell people to "read the rules" of MLA style, certainly not on matters which contradict Wikipedia style guidance, because those do not in any way override it. (Other than to encourage their intellectual curiosity.) The entire tenor of this discussion seems to smack of WP:OWN issues (and a distinct lack of much in the way of WP:CIVILity). To coin a phrase: 'If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly or redistributed by others, do not submit it.' Alai 02:35, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia policy is not to make changes simply for the sake of making changes. If something is not incorrect (according to the prevailing format of the article, which was initially correct, given that it is MLA Style format), one is not supposed to change it, creating inconsistencies in an article. The goal is "to improve" (to make "improvements") to an artice--see talkheader--not to introduce the opposite because one is being pedantic. Don't quote some of Wikipedia out of context without adhering to the general guidelines editing. There is no need to "mercilessly" edit already correct articles. I find your insistence on doing so absurd and unwarranted. --NYScholar 23:41, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

The changes that Alai made to the punctuation of titles in the text and in notes and references has introduced inconsistencies throughout the article; MLA format in notes and bibliographies and American English-style punctuation of quotations place periods and commas within the final quotation mark in rendering titles and sentnences. To place the commas and the periods outside the quoted titles and phrases is not American-style English (which prevails in the rest of this article) and it creates errors in the format in the notes and bibliograpy. (Titles of essays and short plays, sketches, etc., and quoted phrases were correctly punctuation consistent with the MLA Style format and American-English format in this article. Wikipedia style of quotation marks in titles, putting commas and periods outside the final quotation mark, conflicts with MLA Style Manual style. Experienced professional editors know that consistency is the hallmark of their work. Wikipedia's "convention" is contrary to professional editing practices and inconsistent with American English format of punctuating such titles in texts and in notes and bibliographical-form entries.) It may be Wikipedia style of quoting titles and phrases (that are also not so-called "scare quotes"), but it is inconsistent with the prevailing documentation format in this particular article. For those who print out articles from Wikipedia, it creates inconsistencies in the print out and every reference should be consistent for anyone who is formating a note or a bibliography entry in MLA format. I intentionally followed correct American-English and MLA Style formatting of quotations (which incl. following P of the original, even if that is UK spelling or some incorrect amalgam, according to MLA Style format rules).

What Alai has done is to introduce errors now throughout the article. People who are citing notes and intend to use MLA bibliography format will now have to make changes throughout the article. To avoid getting into a so-called "editing war" over this typographical detail (Wikipedia punctuation of quotations and of titles conventions vs. MLA and American-English punctuation of quotations and of titles conventions), the errors will remain for the time being. I haven't time to re-edit this article (again). Please do not introduce any further inconsistencies in what was already correct MLA Style format for an article on an international literary figure (permitted style format in Wikipedia). Thank you. --NYScholar 22:17, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I really have to side with Alai on this. I've read this and the supporting documentation several times, and thought on it for almost a week. This is beginning to smack of WP:OWN, and additionally of WP:LAWYER, especially in quoting things like "inconsistent with the prevailing format" out of one side of one's mouth while ignoring WP:STYLE in other ways for the convenience of one's own argument, on the other. The MLA style is really of no relevance here at all, as it is intended for students writing term papers ("or if your instructor says otherwise", etc.) Wikipedia is not your term paper or even your dissertation. This is a substantially British-authored article about an entirely British subject, and should therefore use British conventions. And, BTW, I am an American, so there is no "anti-Americanism" on my part. The characterizations like "Alai has introduced inconsistencies" and "Alai has introduced errors throughout the article" strike me as antagonistic nonsense, especially after looking at the actual diffs. As Alai pointed out: WP style calls for one to 'put the punctuation mark inside the quotation marks only if the sense of the punctuation mark is part of the quotation ("logical" quotations)'. He further pointed out that 'The "prevailing format" clause applies only to the "National varieties of English" section, which is expressly concerned with grammar, spelling, and capitalisation, and not punctuation, for which there's an unambiguous rule.' I've yet to see any refutation of this. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 08:15, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

PS: The "MLA is part of the WP style guidelines" stuff doesn't seem to hold water. Wikipedia:Manual of Style does not include the term "MLA" or "M.L.A." at all, and the only occurrences of "Modern" (the M in MLA) are both references to Fowler's book, which has nothing to do with MLA. Cf. the second policy/guideline I wikilinked to above. <ahem> And, yes, please do fix your sig. WP sigs include links at very least to the user page, even better to the user talk page and user contribs, for a reason. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ

The MLA Style Manual is linked in the "See also" section link to WP:Cite in Wikipedia:Manual of style. WP:Cite governs citations in Wikipedia and it offers several ways of making citations, including MLA Style Format. (The link to "Citation Style Handbook: MLA" is listed in the "References" section of WP:Cite: see WP:Cite#References. Wikipedia does not invent citation styles; it incorporates information from existing style formats, listed in its References section in WP:Cite. The link to the Modern Language Association website is provided via the external links section in the article on the MLA in Wikipedia, as well as in WP:Cite's References link to a version of MLA format on an external academic site for students. MLA Style is the format for articles dealing with subjects relating to language and literature (Harold Pinter is a subject in this domain--literature). MLA Style format is taught to students at undergraduate and graduate levels in English and other languages and literatures throughout the United States (and elsewhere in the world), beginning with elementary composition classes in college and through graduate level instruction. Chicago Style is used for books and some other journal publications by scholars in these fields as required by book and journal publishers; for preparation of their students' term papers and of their own submission of articles and books for publication, teachers and scholars in these fields generally instruct and follow MLA Style format.

My signature is my selected preference in Wikipedia. I am not changing it. --NYScholar 22:32, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Punct-uation-ilious?

Is there User-torture here? Is any of this related to copy being from both sides of the Atlantic in Pinter's case? (Pinter himself seems to be that way.) I'm an editor person too and I feel there's a difference between being conscientious or diligent, and being pedantic. Somewhere in Wikistyle it says to keep to the style of the original article. So if this is British English, we keep our sense of humour and don't change it to "humor" – if it began with American English the same applies in reverse. The overarching style is Wiki and there's a guide for that, too.

As for [sic] – it applies to an odd or erroneous word appearing in a quote. Usually it is not used simply to indicate an alternative spelling as if it is an error. Skilled editor or not, it pays to be flexible as well as applicable and keep self up to date. Non? Julia Rossi 01:39, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

This article is not written in British English; it never was. It is written in American English, which is fully acceptable in Wikipedia. See archived talk page, which, clearly, you still have not done. --NYScholar 02:08, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

The original punctuation and format of this article was never English or UK format. It has consistently been American English and MLA format. Read the archived talk pages. You come lately to this article and are unaware of its prevailing and original format. It has been this format for many months. It is a painstaking job to edit correctly and consistently. Johnny-come-lately editors who attempt to make changes here and there without concern for the prevailing format of an entire article are creating inconsistencies in the article's format. It is a question of consistency, not pedantry. I really do not think you are aware of the previous discussion. --NYScholar 01:47, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

One is supposed to quote accurately. If one quotes a UK publication or Pinter' own writing, one follows original format accurately. If one quotes an American publication (which is also a source of Pinter's own writing and punctuated American style most often in that case), one follows that original format accurately. One does not introduce so-called "scare quotes" where they are not in the original; it alters the meaning. Pinter himself in UK-published material makes a distinction in how he punctuates as well, and some UK newspapers themselves use mixed styles. (I have followed exact punctuation in any case.) One follows the source in punctuation; one does not change it, because that can introduce errors in intended meaning of the source being quoted. As for capitalization of titles, one follows MLA format in this article. That is the prevailing format. In MLA format, the only punctuation that goes outside the quotation mark is a colon or a semi-colon; phrases are sometimes punctuated as if they were so-called "scare quotes"; sometimes not. It depends on the intended meaning in the original quotation. It is not as "cut and dried" as one is making it out to be. One has to exert editorial discretion in what one is doing. I have done that. "sic" within brackets indicated "as is": that is how it is in the particular "source." "That is how it is in the particular 'source.' [sic]." [The previous user's definition of what "sic" within brackets indicates is partial and not fully accurate.] --NYScholar 01:54, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Honors

My earlier comments (restored from archive 1). It is against Wikipedia policy to remove other editors' comments in talk pages without their permission. I intended the following to appear, since clearly other users need to be reminded of it and are not reading the archived talk page(s). --NYScholar 23:44, 19 February 2007 (UTC)]

[Um, no. Please see WP:ARCHIVE and WP:REFACTOR (not to mention, again, WP:OWN and WP:LAWYER. If you're going to throw policy around at people, at least please be accurate about it.) PS: See your own pot/kettle talk page "notice": "Comments added to this page are moved if they are misdirected and/or archived. This is my personal talk page. I archive comments as I wish. That is my prerogative. You can find them in the archive." — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 08:36, 28 February 2007 (UTC)]

Consistency: Please note again that the prevailing language used in this article is American English: see the previous discussion in the talk page archive. This is not a "personal" matter; it relates to the form and content of the article. American English is permissible in Wikipedia in articles on subjects of wider than local interest. A Nobel laureate is a subject of wider than local notability. The academic society devoted to Pinter's work, the Harold Pinter Society, was founded by Americans and is based in the United States. Its website is designed by a member of the Harold Pinter Society who lives and works in the United Kingdom. The organization is international in scope, as is its subject, who is a native resident of the UK. But American English is entirely appropriate and consistently used in this article. There is no rational reason to change the spelling throughout the article. UK forms are followed in titles and quotations as needed. (Following WP:NPA, I've crossed out the personal aspersion and the quotation of my own words taken out of context from my talk page; they do not belong here. I did not and do not want them posted here. Different guidelines pertain to Wikipedia users' talk pages than to article talk pages: see W:Talk page guidelines and see also WP:NPA. I repeat: the matter of spelling is a formal issue pertaining to the content of the article; it is not a "personal" issue and I don't appreciate anyone's trying to make it appear misleadingly as if it were one.) --NYScholar 17:53, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Honors

[I wish to emphasize this information, and I have repeated it here for that reason'.--NYScholar 00:32, 1 March 2007 (UTC)] Explanation: Please do not revert to "Honours."

"Honors" is the Am. spelling and acceptable. Wikipedia redirects "honors" to "honours"; but there is no Wikipedia link being used in the heading. The article uses American spelling consistently. Changing one spelling introduces an inconsistency. British spelling "honour" is followed for the actual titles of the honors conveyed, as for quotations of them. Use of capital letters for such honors indicates the name of the title or honor or prize. It is acceptable in Wikipedia to use American spelling. American editors (like me) use American spelling. The nationality of the subject does not govern the spelling to be used. Many articles in the English version of Wikipedia on subjects of various nationalities use American spelling. --NYScholar 18:25, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

For more information, see the following Wikipedia article American and British English differences, especially the sections relating to spelling or orthography. Please be careful not to introduce inconsistencies of spelling into this article; the text of this article currently attempts to conform consistently with conventions of American spelling, American punctuation and quotation, MLA (Modern Language Association of America) usage. See WP:Cite, and other Wikipedia policies and articles that I've already linked to in earlier comments and replies. If in doubt, please review the conventions. (I've already addressed some of these issues in earlier comments and replies to others' comments and changes above in this talk page; so please read those too.) Thanks. --NYScholar 18:09, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

See also: English Wikipedia#Controversies for further perspective on the importance of consistency of conventions within the texts of Wikipedia articles: "The policy, however, is to prefer an appropriate form of English for articles of regional scope (e.g., Canadian English for subjects related to Canada) but otherwise to allow the use of any variety of English, as long as the variety of English is consistent throughout the text of an article" (English Wikipedia#National stylistic conventions). An article on a Nobel laureate and world-renowned subject like Harold Pinter is of international (not regional or national) scope, and this usage of American English (as long as "consistent throughout the text of an article") is thus allowed. --NYScholar 19:55, 21 August 2006 (UTC) .... How "someone started" the article is not the issue; as it stands, this article consistently uses American English and there is no rationale for changing all the American English usages consistently used in it to another usage. When a title of a work or an entity or a source or a quotation uses English spelling, it is consistently being followed in this article as it is. (Please go to the Wikipedia policy cited about English-language usage and read it in context. Please don't take it out of context to make some unrelated point.) It is violating the Wikipedia quoted policy to change consistencies within this article to inconsistencies by editing without concern for the prevailing and consistent English-language usage (American English). --NYScholar 05:26, 18 January 2007 (UTC) Source: Talk:Harold Pinter/archive1#Honors --NYScholar 23:44, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

This is not a discussion forum

See tagged talkpage header: "This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Harold Pinter article. This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject."--NYScholar 08:42, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Prior to making substantive major changes

Someone recently moved the "Works" section of this article to a separate article without any prior discussion on this talk page. Doing that violates talkpage guidelines. It turns out that the change may be a desirable way to shorten the article and that other editors might think it's a good idea, but making such a major change to an article is supposed to be discussed prior to making the change. One needs to ask others for their views about such changes. I think that the change may be okay; though it might be more convenient to have the Works listed in this (actual) main article on the subject (Harold Pinter); without such discussion, there is no way to know if other editors (not just the one who made the change) agree with it. See Wikipedia:Manual of Style for linked guidelines and policies and "help" with editing on the main page of Wikipedia. --NYScholar 08:50, 31 March 2007 (UTC)