Talk:Eastern Orthodox Church
discussion which lead to moving the entry to Eastern Orthodoxy:
This nomenclature is not what has been developing on Wikipedia, nor is it the common nomenclature in real life. The Orthodox of my acquaintance tend to say 'The Orthodox'. If we used 'Orthodox Christianity for this group (and under the rules of NPOV we have to consider the churches and denominations 'groups') the group currently entered under Catholicism should be [Catholic Christianity], and instead of Protestantism we should have [Protestant Christianity]. If someone had written this article at [Eastern Orthodoxy] it would have lit up lots and lots of links. I, too, think that Eastern Orthodoxy is an inadequate name, but then so are most of the religious group names. Sorry about that. This should be an umbrella entry anyway, to be followed by entries for Russian Orthodox Church, etc., etc. I'm still drinking coffee or I'd move this myself. I may do so later. --MichaelTinkler.
- I agree. To be consistent with existing nomenclature, the main article should probably be at Eastern Orthodoxy, with redirects from Orthodox Christianity and Eastern Orthodox Christianity to activate lots of existing links.
- I've been thinking about starting this article for a little while now; I'm glad someone else got the ball rolling. Would it be appropriate to include external links to the main home pages of each of the major Orthodox jurisdictions, i.e. Russian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, etc.? Should Russian Orthdoxy and similar topics redirect here, or have a stub entry with a See Also that points here? Thanks. --Wesley
Terms describing the various religious divisions tend to be loaded, often distinguishing between us and them, valid and invalid.
Us-them Examples:
- Christian - Heathen
- Muslim - Infidel
Valid-invalid examples:
- Christian - Cult
- Christian - Catholic (Note: this may belong more to us-them)
- Catholic - Protestant (Note: this may belong more to us-them)
- Satirized on www.onion.com as Catholic - Hellbound :-)
--Ed Poor
- Are you suggesting this article includes some loaded terms that should be revised? I'm not saying it doesn't, because I haven't read the article while looking for that sort of thing. --Wesley
I think the term "Eastern Orthodox", while obiviously loaded (orthodox meaning right belief after all), is so widely used (both by them and by non-Orthodox Christians and by non-Christians even) that it really doesn't cause a problem. Orthodox in this context has over time changed its meaning from "those who have the right belief" to "those who believe what the Eastern Chalcedonian church believes". It has lost its inherent bias by the force of centuries -- SJK
Of course it would be handy if this were a better article. since no one seems to mind (though the author hasn't weighed in), I'll move it. --MichaelTinkler.
Sorry about that clash, whoever that was. I've moved it now! --MichaelTinkler.
I'm going to add an outline at the top to hint at future expansion, and possibly slight reorginization of what's already there. The trick is going to be not to duplicate too much of what is already at History of Christianity, Christianity and related pages. Suggestions for organization and subtopics are very welcome. --Wesley
On the questions at the bottom:
- Calendar - it's probably worth a whole paragraph on its own here.
- Liturgy - of course it'll come up, but it needs separate entries - Liturgy of St. John Chrsostomos, Liturgy of St. Basil, Liturgical languages in Orthodoxy, etc., etc.
--MichaelTinkler
moved from article (reader note: If I am not mistaken the date of the Orthodox Easter is the First Sunday after the first full moon of Spring?)
- That's close, I think, with the caveat that Spring begins on March 21 of the Julian calendar. Figuring out the algorithm makes my head hurt, so I just added a link that explains it. I'm just doing well to remember it's May 5 this year. Suppose we could mention it happened to coincide with Western Easter in 2000, and does about once every 13 years or so... I think. Wesley
- Followup: the Easter article has Western and Eastern dates now, and more links to outside articles that discuss it
Very minor (nit-picky) change to the information on fasting. Great lent is actually separate from Holy Week. Thus Great Lent is exactly 40 days, but we still fast (usually more strictly) for Holy Week. Since I am new to wikipedia, I didn't want to practice editing this article! Jgilm
- I think you're right. Please, jump in and fix it! Edit boldly! If you really want to practice, I think there's a "sandbox" set up to practice the mechanics. If you're just changing plain text and not links, it should be very straightforward though. Wesley
Not editing because I don't know enough about this, but I was under the impression that the Orthodox Church no longer official considers Roman Catholics heretics (and vice versa). There was a fairly well-publicized partial reconciliation in which both sides rescinded anathemas pronounced upon each other centuries earlier. This was met by some criticism by particularly conservative Orthodox elements, notably some of the monks of Mount Athos. Delirium 05:50 1 Jul 2003 (UTC)
- Yeah, the split in 1054 was sort of "solved" numerous times, especially whenever the Byzantines desperately needed Western help later on (but the general public never accepted it). Both churches officially lifted the excommunications, sometime recently I think (I'm sure it was with John Paul II). But I don't know exactly what that meant, since there are still a lot of theological differences. Adam Bishop 05:56 1 Jul 2003 (UTC)
- Adam, you're pretty much right on target. At one council (Council of Florence I think?) the Orthodox bishops agreed to submit to the Pope and insert the filioque clause into the Nicene Creed in exchange for military aid against the attacking Turks. The story is that the populace refused to allow their bishops to disembark from their ships when they returned home; in addition, the Roman armies arrived shortly after the Turks sacked Constantinople, too late to help. Sometime in the mid-1960s, the Pope at that time (not John Paul II, but I forget who... same one who led Vatican II) and the Patriarch of Constantinople rescinded the excommunications/anathemas of 1054. But the Patriarch of Constantinople is not an Eastern Pope, and in matters like this the other patriarchs are free to disagree with him, and many did. East and West still disagree strongly over the role of the Pope, whether the filioque clause is permissible, and other things. In North America, I believe there is a regular series of meetings going on between Orthodox and Roman Catholic bishops who meet every few months to discuss the filioque clause and related matters, that has been taking place for several years; maybe they'll be able to work towards agreement. I think that Roman Catholics will allow Orthodox Christians to receive the Eucharist (for both this is the ultimate sign of unity), but Orthodox churches will generally not allow Catholics to receive the Eucharist. (Exact criteria is usually established by each bishop, but there's usually not that much variation in this area.) Each acknowledges that the other is "close" and makes it easier for members from the other to convert, including (usually) recognizing ordained priests, etc.
- But a year or two ago the Pope set up one or more new Catholic dioceses in Russia, which the Patriarch of Moscow viewed as a very unfriendly act, an attempt to win more Catholics and undermine the Russian Orthodox Church there while it's still trying to recover from decades of Communism. A similar situation exists in the Ukraine, with tension between the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and the "uniate" churches that converted to Roman Catholicism a while ago, including arguments about who owns which church property. Actions like this cause many Orthodox to distrust pronouncements of friendship. We're still a long ways from having full communion restored; my guess is it would probably take a new ecumenical council, including the Pope and the Orthodox patriarchs, to do it. And for such a council to be accepted as ecumenical, it would not only need to have representatives from all or most patriarchates, but the results would need to win approval among the people of the various Orthodox churches as well; it would certainly help if the Catholic people went along with it, I'm not sure how that would play out otherwise. Other people have other ideas about how the schism might be healed; time will tell. Wesley 16:17 1 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I strongly consider the last few changes to be inaccurate, and am considering reverting. Some important information was removed (Schism, filoque clause, etc.), and the article as it currently stands is completely wrong (the Oriental Orthodox are not the same as the Eastern Orthodox, and the only people who think so are those who are confused by the similarity of the names). In addition, few consider the Roman Catholic Church to be the "Western Orthodox." --Delirium 01:08 15 Jul 2003 (UTC)