Talk:Haredi Judaism
RK, I removed the sentence about Haredi attitudes. It is very inaccurate. Without getting into a lengthy theological debate in this forum, I will simply say that traditional Jewish texts (and their creators) tend to use a lot of hyperbole when arguing among themselves. Take the debate between Maimonides and the Rosh Asher ben Jehiel for example. That got absolutely vicious. However, there is a fine distinction between what they say and what they mean. I can give plenty of examples too, if you want. BTW, the same holds true for Neturei Karta. (on a personal note, I've been put in herem too many times to take the rhetoric that seriously) Danny
Danny, I am restoring the deleted text, and adding a sentence, since my original statement was actually an understatement. I am adding "Haredim consider all forms of non-Orthodox Judaism to be non-Jewish religions altogether. In the ultra-Orthodox worldview, sometimes non-Orthodox forms of Judaism are considered not only to be un-Jewish, but anti-Jewish."
In my personal experience, this is absolutely true. I have seen virulent hatred spewed at Reform and Conservative Judaism in the most horrible manner possible. When hundreds of ultra-Orthodox Jews translate hateful texts into real life slander, this isn't merely hyperbole. It represents an actual fact: Many ultra-Orthodox Jews literally hate non-Orthodox Judaism. While they may consider non-Orthodox Jews to be Jewish people, practically every single ultra-Orthodox Jew considers Reform, Reconstructionism and Conservative Judaism all to be false and misleading; all of these denomination are held not be authentic Judaism. In fact, I cannot think of a single ultra-Orthodox rabbinical authority that holds otherwise.
In fact, I am seriously understating the case. Consider the views of Rabbi Avi Shafran, the public relations spokesman for Agudat Yisrael, the largest and most mainstream ultra-Orthodox group in the US. The following is a quote from "JewThink: A Guide to Real Judaism for the Thinking Individual" (New York: Sepher-Hermon Press, 1977). Rabbi Shafran states that Conservative and Reform rabbi "qualify for the infamous titles of min and apikoros" and "are the followers of Korach;" states that "these man-made 'religions' [Conservative and Reform] are the most destructive forces in the history of the Jewish people and all those who seek to spread their noxious heresies are mesisim, instigators whose aim is to lead astray the masses;" and contends, with regard to Conservative and Reform leaders, that there is "a law which orders loyal Jews to kill these types of people if at all possible," a law which was declared inapplicable today by the Chazon Ish but which "remains valuable for the light it sheds on the way Real Judaism" regards such people.
Rabbi Shafran then elaborates on this last point: "These people are not so much meant to be hated as enemies and wished dead for the sake of 'revenge' or to see them dead. The way we hate such people is not like the 'cat hates the mouse,' but rather like the 'storekeeper hates the vermin' which infest his store, not hating the vermin themselves but wanting them gone in order to arrest the damage they are causing. We resent their existence. So, in lieu of the fact that we are not allowed to physically harm these people today, we should still treat them with utter contempt and disrespect, avoiding contact with them as one would with any destructive fiend." (These quotations are from Chapters 15 and 18 of the book.)
Shafran is not alone in this. Statements in ultra-Orthodox newspapers and journals make clear that while most don't issue such virtual death threats, most view non-Orthodox is outrageously demeaning terms. RK
- RK, I removed the entire paragraph, which is misleading and inaccurate, and I intend to keep doing that. Combining Haredi attitudes toward Modern Orthodoxy with Haredi attitudes toward Conservative with Haredi attitudes toward Reform is both wrong and misleading. Positing Shafran as a spokesman for the Haredi community is plain ridiculous. Basing an attitude in that community on a popular book in English (!), rather than a primary source, kvitel, psak, ShuT, or halachah lemaaseh shows a deep misunderstanding of the Haredi community, its norms, its means of relaying information to its members, and certainly its diversity.
- Yes, the Haredi community (which is an incredibly diverse community) has problems with Conservative and Reform. BTW, have you ever heard the Modern Orthodox movement speak about Conservative and Reform behind closed doors? Yes, their statements are sharp: I would attribute what was said by Shafran to one of two sources: Rodef or Kanaim pog'im bo, (both of which are accepted concepts within the Modern Orthodox world as well). Neither of them have very practical implications in halachah today. In Orthodoxy, Modern or Ultra, Judaism is defined by halachah--nothing more, nothing less.
- What you have to look at is the method that dialogue conducted within the community among members, who understand the terms, references, etc. Unfortunately, most Haredim do not understand that their wordings mean something very different to people unaccustomed to those internal codes. In effect, it is an inability to free themselves from an insider's jargon when communicating with the outside world. And yes, even Shafran does that. Unfortunately, with an influx of newly observant baalei teshuva we are beginning to see some misunderstanding within the community itself (but who takes baalei teshuva seriously anyway?).
- I am speaking from authority on this one. I come from a rabbinic family: my great-grandfather was a founder of Chaim Berlin and Torah Va-Daas, my grandfather was a musmach of the Chafetz Chaim in Radom and Rav Kook in Jerusalem, my father was a YU graduate and rabbi, while I spent a good seven years in yeshiva after high school. I was also an active member for many years in the Reform synagogue in Jerusalem. In other words, I was raised in the jargon and understand it well enough. I know it is a paradox, but what they seem to say and what they mean are not always the same thing. Danny
Danny writes: "Combining Haredi attitudes toward Modern Orthodoxy with Haredi attitudes toward Conservative with Haredi attitudes toward Reform is both wrong and misleading."
You need to be more specific. We need to point out that (A) Some Haredi rabbis view Modern Orthodoxy as not a valid form of Judaism. (That's just a painful fact; it may make us uncomfortable, but its true.) (B) Some Haredim view Modern Orthodoxy as a valid form of Judaism. Both attitudes exist, and I am uncertain as to what precisely you disagree with here. RK
In regards to non-Orthodox Jewish movements, there is total agreement among all Haredi rabbinical bodies: All forms of non-Orthodox Judaism are not valid forms of Judaism at all. This is even accepted as factual among many Modern Orthodox. Again, there is absolutely no dispute about this in the Haredi community at large. What precisely do you dispute about this? Can you name any Haredi (ultra-Orthodox) rabbinical bodies which do respect any form of non-Orthodox Judaism as a valid form of Judaism? Can you name any Haredi rabbis which view Reform or Conservative rabbis as real rabbis, and accept their conversions as valid? Please name these groups, and offer a few references. If you cannot offer a few references as to the existence of such Haredim, this proves my point. RK
Danny writes "Positing Shafran as a spokesman for the Haredi community is plain ridiculous. Basing an attitude in that community on a popular book in English (!), rather than a primary source, kvitel, psak, ShuT, or halachah lemaaseh shows a deep misunderstanding of the Haredi community,..."
That is incorrect. Rabbi Avi Shafran literally is the official spokesman for Agudat Yisrael, the largest Haredi (ultra-Orthodox) group in the US. That is what he is paid to do. In fact, he is one of the more polished speakers in that organization. Others in his group are a lot more blunt. When he issues his press releases to newspapers, he is doing so as an official representative for many hundreds of Ultra-Orthodox rabbis, and they picked him as their spokesman because they represent their views. RK
Danny writes "Yes, the Haredi community (which is an incredibly diverse community) has problems with Conservative and Reform."
No, the situation is much more harsh than tht. Everything I have ever read from them explicitly states that they view these movements as non-Jewish abominations. They even have taken out full page advertisements in newspapers wanring Jews to stay home on Rosh HaShanah and Yom Kipur, rather than set foot in a non-Orthodox synagogue. Even many Modern Orthodox rabbis have taken such positions. You seem unaware of the actual beliefs that Haredim have towards non-Orthodox forms of Judaism. RK
Danny writes "I am speaking from authority on this one. I come from a rabbinic family: my great-grandfather was a founder of Chaim Berlin and Torah Va-Daas,"
Danny, I can't engage in dialogue with you if you accuse virtually every ultra-Orthodox Jew of being deceptive about their own beliefs, and who all secretly view non-Orthodox forms of Judaism as valid. That position has no basis in fact. However, if you are trying to convince me of something else (e.g. that Orthodox Jews are not trying to murder non-Orthodox Jews), then I agree with you. But that is not what I wrote in the main text of the article, right? That is a separate topic. With regards to the info you deleted, that information must be restored. Maybe it needs to expanded and explained, but it does need to be there. Otherwise we would present a very distorted picture of Haredi Judaism. We must not and cannot portrary them as religious pluralists, even if we want them to be, because we would then be lying about their beliefs. RK