Talk:Sahaja Yoga

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The hand/head picture chart

Personally Sethie doesn't see the need for having this in an encyclopedia article, and if it stays in, Sethie proposes we move it to under the practices section- so at least it has some connection to the article.

However, Sethie's vote is to remove it. Sure it looks cool and what does it add? Sethie 07:00, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

The ability to feel 'sensations' corresponding to the different chakras on hands and head are an integral part of SY meditation, and therefore essential to the article. This would not be a part of the pratices, rather would belong in the chakra section since it is related to the chakras rather than the accompanying practices... ˜˜˜˜

That's good to know that this idea is core and it would be nice to have a source for that. Let's include it in the article if it is the case! and give it more emphasis. However, the question remains, does having a picture of the places where the imbalances are and whcih chakra they correspond to encylopediac? Sethie 01:47, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

If feeling sensations is an integral part of this subject then we should mention it more fully in the article. ·:·Will Beback ·:· 06:05, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I have waited over a month for anyone to say why they feel the hand/chart helps the article and have heard no response. Removing. Sethie 17:08, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

The chart visualises section "Position on head and hands", it should be restored and more explanation may be added that feeling sensations and knowing this chart is indeed the integral part of Sahaja Yoga practice. --Ajvanari 00:24, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

What's our source for it being integral? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:21, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Any Sahaja Yogi can confirm that. This information can also be found on the official website: http://sahajayoga.org/chakrasandsubtlebody/ --Ajvanari 19:56, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I see they are mentioned, but I don't see that they are called "integral", or even given a primary place in the linked article. Also, are the chakra placements in SY different from standard chakra placements? If they are standard then we should cover this in the Chakra article. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:03, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

In the Chakra article the chakra placements may be added sourcing SY teaching, as I'm not sure if they are same to traditional study of chakras and if they were described before SY at all. As for them being integral to SY, the "Chakras" section of the presentation, and especially the last paragraph (starts with "The chart will help you to interpret your sensations....") specifically explains sensations being important in SY. --Ajvanari 21:00, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

That makes it seem more like a minor detail rather than a major tenet. A problem with these chakra charts is that they tend to overwhelm the text. Can we simply describe what's important about the information? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:06, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I understand Will's point about how much detail should be in the article; however the location of the chakras on the hands, head (and the limbs, feet also) are an important part of the diagnostic aspects of Sahaja Yoga meditative practice. I vote for restore. Sahajhist 12:17, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

If they are integral, I would like to see them idea mentioned in the article, and as of yet, I have not heard a single reason why the charts should go in the article..... Sethie 16:29, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

As I see it, there are two separate questions. One is whether the sensations and chart are integral to SY, which is an easily verifiable fact, not a POV, anyone can visit any SY center in any part of the world and the first thing you'll be introduced to is how to feel sensations with your hands ("vibrations") followed by explanation which finger sensations correspond to which chakra. This is absolutely integral to SY and any public SY program will feature the chart (which, though, will likely be closer to the one already included in the top of the article).
The other question is whether this particular image is needed in the proposed place, here I will leave it to others, but I wouldn't see a problem if it went to the practice section, cause after all this is practice, as opposed to theory.--Ajvanari 22:48, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

The use of the hand centres to 'diagnose' the chakras in the body is a major part of SY. If it seems that the information is overwhelming the article, perhaps a new article should be created for the sole purpose of oitlining/describing the chakra system in SY... Sfacets 07:49, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

I was disapointed to see you reinstered the charts.... your edit summary says "See discussion" but you make no mention of doing so in your discussion. The discussion here was leaning away from including them.

Please respond to one of these before re-adding:

However, Sethie's vote is to remove it. Sure it looks cool and what does it add? Sethie 07:00, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

If they are integral, I would like to see them idea mentioned in the article, and as of yet, I have not heard a single reason why the charts should go in the article..... Sethie 16:29, 30 July 2007 (UTC)Sethie 18:09, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

My reasoning behind re-inserting the charts was that you had removed them because there was no further discussion, a situation that has since changed... I believe that I did answer your questions (and so did other editors above):

"::The use of the hand centres to 'diagnose' the chakras in the body is a major part of SY. If it seems that the information is overwhelming the article, perhaps a new article should be created for the sole purpose of oitlining/describing the chakra system in SY... Sfacets 07:49, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

That there is not yet much mentionned in the section about the place this system holds in SY is more to do with the section being incomplete rather than the system not being an integral part of SY... Sfacets 19:13, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry to say you re-inserted them based on innacurate mind reading!

I removed them not because there was no discussion, but because there was and is still no real discussion of why the charts themsleves should go in. No one is disputing mentioning the use of the charts. And, no one has, as of yet, made a single arguement or given a single reason for the inclusion of the actual charts.

Look if you think it'll make a better article to have the charts- I am open, tell me! "The charts are very important to SY" doesn't convince me one iota that there inclusion would make a better article! It convinces me that we need more info about the charts. Sethie 05:56, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Charts, again

Long version: To Sfacets and Sahajist

For over TWO MONTHS, I have tried to engage in dialogue about whether the charts would make a better article or not. Neither of you have replied and merely ignored my queries and attempts at dialogue and stuck them back in.

You have said, "Oh it is important to Sahaj Yoga" but have failed to address why it is important to THIS ARTICLE.

I have no opinion on Sahaj Yoga and here I am wasting my time trying to discuss things with two very obviously biased editors. I have asked three or four times, "How does this make a better article" and your only replies have been to reinsert the pictures.

Either engage in dialogue or leave this page. Seriously.

Talk or leave. And I mean actual talk.

Wikipedia is based on creating concensus, not people dropping by and shoving stuff into articles and then disapearing or not addressing concerns.

I have been extremely paitent and given A LOT of time to answer my concerns with this.

I would ask both of you to review WP:CON and actually dialogue about this. To quote myself: Look if you think it'll make a better article to have the charts- I am open, tell me! "The charts are very important to SY" doesn't convince me one iota that there inclusion would make a better article! It convinces me that we need more info about the charts.

I am open. Let's talk. Otherwise, please leave.

I don't like to go around reverting edits, however I have given you TWO months to give a reason for their inclusion. I am still opposed to it, and since you have given ZERO reason for their inclusion, on this page, the current concensus is 1-0.

Come on Sfacts you're an admin, I expected better of you. Sethie 17:08, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Short version: I am not going to be have my concerns ignored by two people with a clear POV who aren't willing/able to discuss my concerns. Participate or leave. I am open to changing my position about their inclusion/exclusion. I am not open to my concerns not being respectfully addressed, by two editors who are members of the organization of the article we're discussing! Sethie 17:45, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, I'm certainly here for the long term. And for the record, I agree with WillBeBack's attempted compromise. And btw Sethie, if you must undo yet again, please take care to leave other edits in place. [[User:sahajhistsahajhist]] 23:12, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Without even reading what you wrote, thank you for showing here on the talk page. Sethie 23:13, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

You know I saw that I would be undoing another edit or two and I did feel regret about that. I might have been a bit more cautious under different circumstances. 23:18, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

as Sfacets added the charts, I'll leave the two of you to interact. My comments remain as above. sahajhist 23:22, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

The 16 gunas (attributes) of a Guru ?

Greetings ! I just want to know What are the 16 gunas (attributes) that one qualify in order to be considered a true guru (Satguru) ? Thank you.

This isn't a general discussion page, just a place to discuss this article. However you might find some relevant information in our articles on Guna and Satguru. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:57, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

RFC

Dispute over whether or not to include hand/head diagnosis charts inside the article as shown in this version [[1]]

Brief statement by involved parties

This version [[2]] looks to me like an article not for describing or explaing about the group, but as a means of expressing and sharing the actual information and practices of the group. I have asked for a reason for the inclusion of the hand/head chart for two months and have recieved no answer, other then the continued re-insertion of the charts, by two Sahaja Yoga practitioners! They assert that it is very important to the tradition but have added no further information (other then the charts) I am wondering if the chakra chart needs to be taken out as well? Sethie 23:28, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

The article does not share the 'practices of the group', rather is presents practices that the group would like to be publicly associated with it. One of the most important practices of the group - the worship of Shri Mataji - is completely left out. This is a far more significant aspect of the group than charitable activities for example. --Simon D M 15:34, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

My primary concern as an editor is with the text of this article (which I believe currently to be a reasonable consensus view). I have no view on inclusion of the charts per se. Certainly these charts are available elsewhere on the web for those interested in practising this meditation. sahajhist 23:59, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I created the diagrams/charts because editors brought up the fact that while there is information on Sahaja Yoga as an organisation there is little/no information on the meditation practice. A while back the article was split into two, one being "Sahaja Yoga International" - describing the organisational part of the movement, and the other being "Sahaja Yoga" describing the Meditation itself.

The real issue then seems to be whether we want/need to include information on the meditation - and if this doesn't fit into the article then perhaps we need to separate the article again perhaps keeping this one and creating another one such as "Chakras (Sahaja Yoga).

Apologies to Sethie if he feels that his points were not taken notice of - busy times :) Sfacets 07:19, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Statments by uninvolved parties

• The article does look a bit odd as it is. The top of it looks like an extension of their literature department and at the end of the article there's a bunch of critism. Head of gold and feet of clay. Perhaps the article should show a sample or two of the type of pictures, only as thumbnails on the article, that one would likely encounter should one visit their website but more than that just turns it into a text book IMHO. It needs more outside-looking-in perspective. Regards Bksimonb 19:08, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

It would be an idea to include some of the so-called 'miracle photos' that are used in Sahaja Yoga as evidence of Mataji's divinity, although critics claim they are just poorly taken photos. You can see a long list here: http://imageevent.com/sahaja/miraclephotos --Simon D M 17:16, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

I believe the head/hand charts are too specific for an encyclopedia article. The article without them provides enough information for people to become aware that the topic is a meditation exercise related to chakras. Those interested in learning the details of all that is involved, how the meditation works, the complete theory behind it, etc., can follow a link to sites that are dedicated to providing this information in full. At issue is not the value of the meditation, nor whether the diagrams are essential to understanding it, but simply the limitation that "Wikipedia is not a manual, guidebook, or textbook." For comparison, look at the article on "Slapping" (electric bass technique), "rock climbing," and "database design," each of which articles is not a tutorial, but does include links to at least one tutorial site. VisitorTalk 08:15, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

so... Sfacets 05:52, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

First off, I appreciate your appology.

Yes, I was frustrated at repeating what seemed an essential question and not getting an answer to it and seeing action being taken without addressing that question.

And as of yet, no one has responded to my question!!!!!

You say, "The real issue then seems to be whether we want/need to include information on the meditation - and if this doesn't fit into the article then perhaps we need to separate the article again perhaps keeping this one and creating another one such as "Chakras (Sahaja Yoga)." I hear that for you this is the real issue.

For me, it isn't an issue at all. I have added some information about the techniques and would welcome more of such. So to respond to your concern, I would welcome more information about all the different techniques.

As for my conerns.....

Would you please re-read:

"Dispute over whether or not to include hand/head diagnosis charts inside the article as shown in this version 24

[edit] Brief statement by involved parties

This version 25 looks to me like an article not for describing or explaing about the group, but as a means of expressing and sharing the actual information and practices of the group. I have asked for a reason for the inclusion of the hand/head chart for two months and have recieved no answer, other then the continued re-insertion of the charts, by two Sahaja Yoga practitioners! They assert that it is very important to the tradition but have added no further information (other then the charts) I am wondering if the chakra chart needs to be taken out as well? Sethie 23:28, 7 August 2007 (UTC)"

And in your own words re-state what you hear me expressing concern over? Sethie 06:30, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

"...This version 25 looks to me like an article not for describing or explaing about the group, but as a means of expressing and sharing the actual information and practices of the group"

I read what you wrote and proposed a solution, which was to create a new article which would encompass both the practices and beliefs in Sahaja Yoga - I gather that your concern is that there is no accompanying text explaining the charts - and that you also do not see the relevance of said charts in the context of the article. For that reason I suggested creating a new article which would go into depth describing the beliefs of the group. The reason (probably, I can't really remember - this was a while back) that I didn't include an accompanying passage to the diagrams/tables was because the article, as Bksimonb says, looks "odd"- possibly because there are parts, as you pointed out, that don't quite fit into the article. So my proposition stands: create a new article "as a means of expressing and sharing the actual information and practices of the group". Hope this clarifies my position - I don't believe the charts are "too specific for an encyclopedia article" as VisitorTalk suggests, but concede that they probably are for this article. Sfacets 09:44, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

"I read what you wrote and proposed a solution, which was to create a new article which would encompass both the practices and beliefs in Sahaja Yoga - I gather that your concern is that there is no accompanying text explaining the charts"

nope.

"and that you also do not see the relevance of said charts in the context of the article."

sorta close, and nope.

Hence your solution doesn't address my concerns and I don't feel like we're actually have a discussion.... a feeling which is becoming very familiar on this particular topic Sfacets.

I will try and make it really clear:

I do not see how having the actual charts in ANY article is encyclopediac and/or makes a better article. sadly, Sethie 16:12, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Why not? It shows the beliefs of the group, doesn't it? As I said.Sfacets 21:07, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

If you bothered to read the RfC I posted you would see some reasons I posted "Why not," however I am becoming more and more skeptical that you are really reading what I write here.

Never mind. I'll just let the concensus from the RfC decide this, enough attempts at dialogueing with you. Sethie 21:25, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I guess you'll just have to assume good faith. Sfacets 21:49, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Question about charts

For the 500th time will you just freaking answer this question: Why does having the actual charts, in ANY article make a better article? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sethie (talk • contribs).

IMHO, we're on dangerous ground if we're going to continually remove each other's comments from this page. That said, I agree with Will that comments should be confined to edits wherever possible. Sahajhist 22:25, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I have restored the charts (with modifications to size/formating), since it appears that no consensus has been reached here for their removal. Sfacets 01:15, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

You're joking?

No, you're not, you did it.

Me, who doesn't care about Sahaja Yoga, two disinterested people come here via the Rfc say no. You, a Sahaja Yogaist, say yes, without any justification, despite my continious asking for one......

If you see this as "no concensus" or worse- the above response as reason for inclusion, maybe it's time you remove yourself from this article for awhile. Sethie 01:53, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Looks like mediation is our next step here. Sethie 01:54, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Hey, you removed the charts before any consensus was reached to do so. I have responded as best I could to your none-too specific questions, and yet you failed to accept any of my answers, instead choosing to "shout" out your exasperation [3], perhaps because you decided that you didn't like my answers. A month later, still no concensus reached, I re-insert the charts (which shouldn't have been taken out in the 1st place) and preto! along comes Sethie to remove them again. If there was no COI in the 1st place, there definitely was the second time.

I am still waiting for concensus for the charts to removed, and suggest you do the same. Sfacets 02:13, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

There was never a consensus to include the charts. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:35, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I have filed for a mediation.

If 3 people who are not involved with a group vs one who is (and btw who made/reformated/put work into the image in question!) doesn't seem like a clear consensus to you- then we are speaking a different language and need someone to help us bridge this language barrier. Sethie 04:51, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Archiving

this talk page is getting awfully long. Can someone do the necesssary please? Sahajhist 22:14, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

The archive of previous discussions can now be found here. Sfacets 04:37, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Neutrality notice

It seems to me that substantial progress has been made in recent months in achieving an article that reflects the diverse perspectives of the regular editors, and indeed the text has been stable for some months now. Therefore I propose removing the 'neutrality' notice at the top of the main article. Any comments? Sahajhist 03:45, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't see anything significant that needs attention and so I endorse removing the tag. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 09:52, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I would propose replacing the neutrality notice. Indeed, this article is designed by sahaja Yoga practicioners as it doesn't even mention that in several countries, including France, this is considered to be a cult. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.136.97.42 (talk) 21:05, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

WillBeBack is not a Sahaja Yoga practitioner; the French government report you refer to has been significantly modifed; and signed comments are prefered here. Sahajhist 15:57, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I would like to see the neutrality notice return. The article needs to give a more complete picture of Sahaja Yoga including the religious aspect. --Simon D M 15:32, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

If there are specific issues you think need to be addressed, then you may list those here and restore the tag. It was removed because there were no active discussions. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:21, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Let's take this as an example. CP is not entitled to use the title Sir because he is not a citizen of one of the 16 Commonwealth realm countries (not the same as Commonwealth countries) , see Wikipedia entry on Sir for moreInfo. He is an honorary knight (see List of honorary British Knights). Commonwealth realm countries recognise the British monarch as their head of stata - not the case with India. These are the facts yet they won't stick to this page. Even the article cited by SFacets contradicts his position by stating "honorary members and clergymen do not use the accolade of knighthood". --Simon D M 09:26, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Let's keep that discussion at Talk:Chandrika Prasad Srivastava#"Sir". Are there other issues related to this article that we can address here? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 09:46, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the religious element of Sahaja Yoga is seriously underplayed. Mrs Srivastava formed a new religious movement and proclaimed herself to the the Adi Shakti - the Supreme Goddess. Sahaja Yogis travel across the globe just for the chance to worship her as such, or as one of the other 'deities' (eg Krishna, Christ, etc) which are seen as aspects of her. Sahaja Yoga has always been shy of outwardly proclaiming their true beliefs, and try to draw people in with more palatable presentations of Sahaja Yoga, for example as stress relief. Take for example their corporate training spin-off CEL: http://www.evolutionary-learning.org/html/about_us.html . A concerted effort to hide religious elements, let alone millenarian aspects (Mataji is seen as the Comforter/Holy Ghost/Golden Lady - Mother of the Second Christ/Kalki). This article is much the same - with only a few stray references to the religious element. The one website to openly espouse the Religious/Millenarian aspects - http://www.adishakti.org/ - is relegated to the "Critical Sites" section. Thus, by it's focus on the publicly palatable face of SY, this article points the reader away from what Sahaja Yoga really is. This is great for Sahaja Yoga, but not really the aim of Wikipedia.--Simon D M 10:40, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Hey Mr. Saint Joseph of Arimathea, this is great and all, however do you have any sources to back your claims? Original Research isn't admissible here. Sfacets 12:48, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Which of the things I have said are you saying needs a source? Presumably you can accept that Mataji formed an NRM. The fact she has proclaimed herself to be the Adi Shakti is well known to you, and can be seen from her own words quoted at www.adishakti.org and http://www.freewebtown.com/sahaja-yoga/divaquote.htm . See a picture of Mataji being worshipped as Krishna on this page: http://www.freewebtown.com/sahaja-yoga/ritestxt.htm which explains the puja circuit that you must know about. What is it exactly you are objecting to?--Simon D M 13:19, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

What exactly are you criticizing? Sfacets 14:03, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

See above. Sahaja Yoga is not just a meditation technique associated with a charitable organisation. It has a theology, rites of worship, liturgy, soteriology, eschatology, etc. All these are skipped over in the article in favour of the bland and publicly palatable. At the very least a section on beliefs is necessary and a section on practices in which meditation is only a prominent sub-section. The Food section could be another subsection. --Simon D M 14:32, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Note that some of the material on the meditation and the practices is now in Sahaja Yoga meditation. If you have sources for the material you mention then we can include summaries. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:39, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

See wiki article on puja for general info on the practice. I note the Finnish Wikipedia page on Sahaja Yoga has a section on puja. Sources of info on SY puja are below.

A recent puja description: http://www.shrimataji.org/india-2006/story/107

Protocol: http://www.valaya.co.uk/KNOWLEDGEpujaProt1.htm

Supposed outcome of failing to observer proper puja protocol was Mataji's threat to destroy the universe because she was not met at the airport by enough people. This is reported on pp112-4 of Coney's book which can be seen here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=EIdhyctgq0wC&pg=PA113&lpg=PA113&dq=mataji+puja+sahaja+protocol&source=web&ots=N7dELV0WeK&sig=ao_8V5F0UfTY5YVjWnoqLE4jfvg

Pujas are also venues for mass arranged marriages: http://www.sahajayoga.in/NewsInDetail.asp?NID=192

(actually, the arranged marriage system would be a good section in its own right)

Sale of DVDs of puja talks: http://www.sahajayoga.org/store/sy_dvds.pdf

Sayings of Mataji on pujas: http://www.sahajvidya.org/SahajVidya/0_Files_SahajVidya/P/Puja_sec_val2.pdf

Sayings of Mataji on protocol in general: http://www.sahajvidya.org/SahajVidya/0_Files_SahajVidya/P/Protocol_sec_val2.pdf

Pujas described by Mataji's critics: http://www.freewebtown.com/sahaja-yoga/ritestxt.htm

More from critics on financial aspects but perhaps more importantly the various kind of pujas that take place:

http://www.freewebtown.com/sahaja-yoga/mneytxt.htm#Celebrations%20&%20Pujas

I can't understand why the Sahaja Yogis here are so coy about pujas when other Sahaja Yogis have posted up video of Sahaja Yoga pujas for all the world to see on their official websites eg: http://www.sahajayoga.com.au/shrimataji2006/video8.html

--Simon D M 11:41, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Could this possibly mean that they aren't coy? Sfacets 22:16, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

In the absence of serious objections I have put up the proposed section. --Simon D M 18:20, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

from reading this it seems to me that Simon is simply doing everything he can to blantenly discredit Sahaja Yoga. You should remember that it isnt the purpose of wikipedia to judge, but rather to present it exactly as it is done/said. thus CP should still be said as with Sir- but and it should be stated that although he is refered to as this, the title Sir is only meant for those who actually live in Commonwealth states. I also believe that you should list the Official Sahaja Yoga response under external links and make a link to it in the Cult Allegations section. I have googled it and found the response here: http://www.sahajayogafacts.org/default.asp -Devindra Payment comment added by 24.80.193.138 (talk) 03:49, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Split

An editor posted a proposal to split out an article to tbe titled "Sahaja Yoga International", with the note: suggest page be split into one on the yoga, one on the organization.[4] However he may not be aware that that article was already deleted and he material merged here. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sahaja Yoga International. Are there any significant new sources on the topic that would justify recreating the article? If not, we shouldn't split it out. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 02:52, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

It may be better to allow some of the emerging cultural, educational and social welfare organisations being set up by Sahaja Yogis to have their own entries, rather than being all merged into one omnibus article. Sahajhist 09:06, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Tha may be true, but such a split would first have to go through deletion review, WP:DRV. I'm going to remove the split tag until there's enough interest to pursue it. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 17:19, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Comment Those interested in the split may want to review Article spinouts. -- Jreferee ^(Talk) 15:50, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Jreferee, I think this may be an option for the longer sections in thus article, for example the 'practices' section. Sfacets 12:53, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

External Links

Someone asked for this section to be tidied up. I agree. So I have removed (IMHO) extra and old links. Obviously only a small selection of available links can be included, and the resulting listing needs to be balanced and uptodate. If anyone disagrees, please add your comments. Sahajhist 01:28, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I restored two that are still active. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 03:15, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

that U of Virginia page is looking very dated, esp its links. Sahajhist 10:40, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

It still has interesting information. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 17:38, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Hinduism

WikiProjects exist to improve articles. Their scope is often wide, encompassing articles that may have only a minor relationship. There is no harm in attaching an article to a project, and some benefit.

In this instance, Yoga is one of the six schools of Hinduism. Furthermore, Kundalini and Dharma are Hindu concepts. Finally, Shakti is a Hindu deity, and the founder of SY is an incarnation of her. So there are several reasons to connect this article and related topics to Wikipedia:WikiProject Hinduism. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 17:37, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Exactly my thinking. Thank you! IPSOS (talk) 20:02, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I've no objection to the link, but it should be noted that Sahaja Yoga, whilst based on Indian yogic practices, is beyond exising religions, including 'Hinduism' Sahajhist 10:42, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

One member has described SY as "a Hindu-based world religion". ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:28, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

It would be more accurate to say that SY is a new religious movement that is largely based on Hinduism (including folk traditions and modern interpretations), certainly moreso than any other religion. Most of the festivals celbrated are Hindu festivals. Most of the deities worshipped are Hindu deities and even those that are not (eg Jesus) are held to be incarnations of some Hindu deity (eg Mahavishnu). SY puja is based on Hindu puja and SYogis wear Indian clothes for this. Pilgrimmage is made to various Hindu sites in India, moreso than any other religion or country. The mass arranged marriages are based largely on Hindu marriages. Most of the children are named with Hindu names. Etc, etc ... But SY is no way as Hindu as a NRM like the Hare Krishnas. --Simon D M 12:46, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

"See also" links

• Dharma
• Nirvikalpa

These terms appear only vaguely related to this topic. Can any explain the relationship? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:32, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

• New Religious Movement

would be more relevant. --Simon D M 15:33, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

That term is already linked in the intro, so there's no need to add it to the "see also" section. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:13, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

there's still no justification for these "see also" terms. I deleted them and they've been added back by an editor who apparently missed this discussion. We still need a justificatoin for their inclusion. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:42, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

• Cult

isn't linked in the intro. --Simon D M 17:41, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Epilepsy

I removed epilepsy as the source says[5] "No reliable evidence to support the use of yoga as a treatment for control of epilepsy." I left the cite in there, but there needs to be a source that supports this.Ticklemygrits 14:11, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank for pointing it out - I replaced it with another source:

Bhagavatheeswaran Rajesh, Divakaran Jayachandran, Govindan Mohandas, Kurupath Radhakrishnan. The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine. 2006, 12(4): 367-371. doi:10.1089/acm.2006.12.367.[6]

Sfacets 14:22, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

I still have problems with it SF: "Conclusions: If confirmed through randomized trials involving a larger number of patients, this YMP may become a cost-effective and adverse effect-free adjunctive treatment in patients with drug-resistant epilepsies.". I'd be much happier if it said "claimed to", but the source is betterTicklemygrits 14:51, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually I'm not happy with that at all: "Results: At 3 months, a reduction in seizure frequency was noted in all except 1 patient, six of whom had ≥50% seizure reduction. Of 16 patients who continued the YMP beyond 3 months, 14 patients responded at 6 months; 6 of them were seizure-free for 3 months. All eight patients who continued the YMP beyond 6 months responded; three of them were seizure free for 6 months.". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ticklemygrits (talk • contribs) 15:20, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

It really needs to be claimed. It doesn't even have a control group.Ticklemygrits 15:27, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

WP:NPOV requires that we include all significant viewpoints, including those that find insufficient evidence. I've added a summary of the "Yoga for epilepsy" finding. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:51, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

No, that's good Will. I don't have a problem with it being in the article, just it listed as being 'proven' or 'scientifically proven' without proof of that. I'm fine with the your changes.Ticklemygrits 11:02, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Titles

Please see the discussion at Talk:Chandrika Prasad Srivastava#"Sir". ·:· Will Beback ·:· 09:43, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Deletion and external link

Why was this deleted?

• In 2004 the general practitioner [Dr BOHDAN MYRON SHEHOVYCH] was made a World Leader in Sahaja Yoga and appointed to the World Council for the Advancement of Sahaja Yoga. [7]

And why do this domain name keeping getting changed?

• http://www.sahaja-yoga.org Sahaja Yoga: Facts and Warnings from Ex-Members

This is disruptive. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:40, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Because the user should discuss before adding information - there is no secondary source showing that the subject of the article is the person mentionned. The link is changed as per previous discussions. Nothing disruptive about it - it just needs to be done correctly. Sfacets 09:05, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

The link is to a Sahaja Yoga site. Are you saying that such sites are not reliable sources for this article? Are you saying that all material must be discussed before bing added? If so that is entirely contradictory to Wikipedia philosophy.

As for the sahaja-yoga.org link, we never agreed on a change. The domain name was awarded to that group following litigation. IIRC, your only reason for changing it was your speculation that it would load a fraciton of a second faster, which isn't a sufficient reason. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:46, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

A reliable secondary source is needed. The real location of the website is freewebtown.com/sahaja-yoga and not sahaja-yoga.org. Sfacets 22:48, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Again, are you saying that sahajayoga.org is not a reliable source for assertions in this article? That is the source for the assertion in question. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:12, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

By my count, sahajayoga.org is used as a source for this article 14 times. If it is not a reliable source then we need to remove those citations and any assertions for which they are the sole source. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:31, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, or rephrase the sentences so that it is clear where the information comes from. Sfacets 23:35, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

So would it be acceptable to you if we say:

• According to the official Sahaja Yoga website, in 2004 the general practitioner [Dr BOHDAN MYRON SHEHOVYCH] was made a World Leader in Sahaja Yoga and appointed to the World Council for the Advancement of Sahaja Yoga.

Do you think we need to do that for the other 14 assertions as well? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:47, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

No, because as I said, there is no reliable secondary source linking the two people. Are they the same person? Sfacets 00:00, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

How many men named Dr BOHDAN SHEHOVYCH are there in the SY movement? If we can show that there's more than one then we can worry about keeping them straight. However it's a sufficiently unusual name that we should asume it to be the same person. I'm going to restore the assertion and its source until we can find a second Dr. Shehovych. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:15, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I have no idea - neither do you. A secondary source linking the two names is necessary. Please do not add OR content. Sfacets 02:57, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

There are not "two names". If there's evidence that there are please share it. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 03:37, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Can you prove that they are the same person? It is up to the editor who seeks to add information to back it up. Sfacets 03:53, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Can you prove that one mention of a "Nirmala Srivastava" refers to the same person as another mention of a "Nirmala Srivastava"? This objection does not appear to be based on any rational issue. No one is asserting that there is more than one SY member named "Dr BOHDAN SHEHOVYCH". We have reliable surces for the material. I can't believe you want everything sourced from "sahajayoga.org" to be removed, but that is the logical consequence of your action. Is that what you want? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:41, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Everything needs to have reliable secondary sources - or specify where the information comes from. Sfacets 13:38, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

And you say that "sahajayoga.org" is not a reliable secondary source, and that anything sourced only from it should be removed? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:03, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure you understand what a secondary source is... Sfacets 23:27, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Do you think "sahajayoga.org" is an unreliable source? Apparently. That being the case I'm going to delete the citatoins to it and add {fact} tags to anything that doesn't have a 3rd-party citation. I invite you to restore them when you can find "reliable secondary sources" for the assertions. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:33, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Please just look us the definition of secondary sources. Sfacets 23:39, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Here's what the article would look like with the "sahajayoga.org" citations removed.[8] If Sfacets believes we must remove all citations from it then that's what we'll have. I believe that it is a reliable source for issues about SY, and should be allowed. However we should be consistent one way or the other. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:49, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Again, you are missing the point - as long as the information is attributed (eg "according to the organization" etc.) the information is fine to stay. Unattributed content, or unsourced content is not. Sfacets 23:53, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

OK, so now you're requiring that we attribute every assertion cited from "sahajayoga.org". That would have an equally dramatic effect onthe article, and would allow this text you previously forbade:

• According to the official Sahaja Yoga website, in 2004 the general practitioner [Dr BOHDAN MYRON SHEHOVYCH] was made a World Leader in Sahaja Yoga and appointed to the World Council for the Advancement of Sahaja Yoga.

I think that 14 cases of attribution will make the article less readable, but I'm willing to go along. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:59, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually it wouldn't - since my original point stands. Most of the content you tagged was already attributed. Sfacets 00:08, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

So then you'll allow:

• According to the official Sahaja Yoga website, in 2004 the general practitioner [Dr BOHDAN MYRON SHEHOVYCH] was made a World Leader in Sahaja Yoga and appointed to the World Council for the Advancement of Sahaja Yoga.

Since it's attributed? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:18, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

No, since the person in question is not otherwise notable. Sfacets 00:19, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

He's obviously notable within the the SY organization, since he was made a World Leader. If he wasn't notable, his existence and position wouldn't be noted. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 03:52, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Sfacets knows full well that there is only one Australian Sahaja Yogi called Dr Bohdan SHEHOVYCH. He knows full well it was the same person wrestling with Terence Blackley who became World Leader. In fact, if you google "Bohdan SHEHOVYCH", only one Bohdan Shehovych comes up! It is ludicrous that a simple sourced addition needs such a merry dance to get through. Looking through these talk page archives I can see that this merry dance has been going on for a while. Does Wikipedia have any process whereby a mediator can keep such nonsense under control? --Simon D M 10:52, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Dharma and Puja

I unlinked puja, because puja in a Hindu context is different than puja in the context of SY. Dharma is relevant - the mere fact that it is part of "Vishwa Nirmala Dharma" is proof of that. Sfacets 04:57, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

How do we know that this is the same kind of dharma? Is there any source for the connection? Is there a translation for "Vishwa Nirmala Dharma"? (I've asked about the Pujas below) ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:16, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Vishwa Nirmala Dharma is usually translated as Universal Pure Religion, although the Nirmala is an obvious reference to Mrs Srivastava as well. I don't think the term came into existence before the 1980s, if it did I'd like to see some evidence. Before then, as well as afterwards, the organisation was generally known as Sahaja Yoga. VND is little more than a synonym, note the suggestion here: http://www.whois.ws/whois-org/ip-address/sahajayoga.org/ and here: http://www.inforel.ch/index.php?id=i1108 . VND is referred to as a religion on these pages: http://www.sahajayogafacts.org/ http://vishwa-nirmala-dharma.org/ So really both Sahaja Yoga and VND refer to the same religion or new religious movement. VND is also the name of SYoga tax-exempt organisation in some countries eg the US. This is not always the case, the 'charitable' body set up in the UK was called the Life Eternal Trust, but this was probably before the term VND came into existence. Dharma is also used in a way similar to 'morality' in SYoga. The Dharma wikipage is much less relevant than the Puja wikipage because Dharma has so many diverse meanings (one book I read counted 22 in Buddhism alone). Thus the Religion page would be more relevant than the Dharma page. --Simon D M 10:43, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Pujas

Is there more than one kind of puja? The article about it describes a rite that appears similar to what is depicted in SY videos. The article indicates that there are many kinds of pujas. Furher, SY calls the rites that it performs "pujas". Do we have source that describes the difference, if any, between SY pujas and other pujas? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:13, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

SY puja is a development from Hindu puja. Most of the ritual elements described in the Puja article apply to SY puja including: meditation, chanting, scripture reading, offering food, prostrations, application of a tilaka mark on the forehead with vermillion (kumkum), conclusion with aarti, prasad, bhajans (religious prayer songs) and food. The idea that all this, or the totality of SY healing/cleansing techniques, falls under the category of meditation is absurd. --Simon D M 10:14, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Unless someone can provide a source that differentiates SY pujas from Hindu pujas then I think we should restore the internal link. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:40, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

No, you want to add the information, the burden of evidence is upon you to prove that it is the same. Sfacets 01:41, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Does the same standard apply to every internal link? Shall we unlink meditation, yoga, dharma and all other terms that don't have definitive sources showing that the concepts in the Wikipedia articles are the same as the practices and beliefs of SY? If so I expect it will mean we unlink virtually every linked phrase. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 02:17, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

You are right - there is no way that it could work - I will re-link the term. Sfacets 02:42, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Good. Now we need to prove that there isn't more than one "Nirmala Srivastava" and more than one "Bohdan Shehovich". According to one viewpoint, we'll need to remove those names from the article until we can establish that there aren't other people with the same names. How shall we prove it? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:35, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

There are many sources showing that Nirmala Srivastava is th founder of SY. Judith Coney's book for example. Sfacets 04:37, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Which Nirmala Srivastava are you talking about? There could be more than one, just as there could be more than one "Bohdan Shehovich" (according to you). ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:41, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Maybe Sfacets is talking about the Nirmala Srivastava mentioned on this webpage: http://www.iosho.com/oBook/The%20Life%20Of%20Osho/05-24-hindus.htm who couldn't possibly be the same NS. Or could she? But seriously, there is another NS mentioned on this page: http://home.iitk.ac.in/~vaibhavs/ and another here: http://www.d4desi.com/matrimony/matriprofile.asp?param=100002 and another here: http://cities.expressindia.com/local-news/archivefullstory.php?newsid=172353&creation_date=2006-03-05 etc etc etc So it seems you can find multiple Nirmala Srivastavas on Google but ONLY ONE "Bohdan Shehovich" of any description. How long must we continue with this filibuster? --Simon D M 11:35, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Sfacets is asking us to prove the unprovable, see: Negative proof --Simon D M 11:42, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

If the name is as common as Sfacets claims, then the spelling must be very uncommon, because another one doesn't come up on the whole of Google. Yet he suggests that there just happen to be 2 GPs of the same name from Australia in Sahaja Yoga, that both are senior enough to be entrusted with hand-delivering Mataji's letters or being World Leader, and that offical SY sources don't bother to distinguish between the two. As he & SahajHist are both in SY and both have connections in Australia they could confirm this very easily but they don't because you know it's stupid. In fact both John Noyce) and Bohdan are listed as Australian representatives on the Sahaja Yoga Media Project: http://talks.sahajayogaonline.com/welcome.html Case closed. --Simon D M 12:07, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Recent edits

I recently reverted Simon D M's edits - please discuss here before making large multiple edits. Sfacets 18:01, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

You removed multiple small edits, some of which have already been discussed here eg the fact that the Bohdan referred to on the 2 webpages is the same as you well know. Others are just simple points of fact eg that you had cited the Sahaja defenition wrongly. Another that Mataji came to the UK in 1972 in non-controversial and well-known and sourced widely. The rest were things that should never have been in the article and were put there without any evidence being presented. The unrepresentative quote in the references was a liberty and you know it. The claim that Coney has said that Mataji founded a NRM at Nargol is false and you can provide no evidence otherwise. Re puja costs, you also cannot substantiate your claim that money for pujas is for costs. --Simon D M 18:24, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Please comment above re the discussion on "Bohdan Shehovich" Sfacets 18:56, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Also edits like this one are unacceptable - you canot use an unreliable source such as freewebtown.com/sahaja-yoga especially given that you are the registered owner of said website. Sfacets 19:03, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

If you read the page you'd see it reproduced a photograph of a letter from the Metropolitan Police concerning the SY World Leader in question. I am not the registered owner of the website, but of the domain name that points to a website that sits in the folder above the website in question. I am the the owner/webmaster/administrator of neither of these websites. I note you have even removed the later edit about the same World Leader's threatening behaviour even though it came from the offical SY website. It looks like you are just removing anything that shows SY in a bad light no matter where it is sourced yet at the same time sitting on a high horse and handing out warnings, etc.--163.119.105.27 09:57, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

What it links to is a heavily edited scanned documents that says nothing but "Mr G. Lanza is on the immigration list" - which could mean anything. Reliable sources are needed - all we have here is your word that you aren't the webmaster - the site certainly contains enough of your content. I can be on a moral high horse - especially in this case - I don't link to any self-created website and insure that reliable sources are provided - or that the information is attributed. Sfacets 10:51, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Check this out Sfacets: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ#Lack_of_neutrality_as_an_excuse_to_delete

This is the section on criticism. You want any info from a critical site banned from that section. OTOH you are happy with pro-SY sites being quoted in the rest of the article. The edit you reverted said that this has been reported and that evidence has been produced. This is more than for most of the stuff on Mataji. Can you even verify her birth date from her birth certificate and passport? Some people find it odd that her birth date happens to be the same as the 'Enlightenment' date of her former guru Rajneesh. Or are there 2 standards of evidence, one for the pro-SY and one for the anti-SY? This page is badly in need of balance and I point to 2 main things: 1) the religious and superstitious elements of SY are being purposefully hidden (look how long you've taken to accept a puja link); 2) all criticism of SY is being stifled (look at you laughable attempt to conjure up another Bohdan). --Simon D M 11:26, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your conspiracy theories. Information on Shri Mataji's life is widely found, in third party sources as well. Do you see me deleting the criticism section? In a word, no. This is because some of the information is sourced with reliable sources. I will repeat that - reliable sources. Very even-handed of me. Please also read (in the linked article you provided above) "Please be clear on one thing: the Wikipedia neutrality policy certainly does not state, or imply, that we must "give equal validity" to minority views". Sfacets 11:36, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Sfacets has removed critical material so often that I don't have time to count them all. Please don't misrepresent the recent past. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 13:27, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Removed with reason, as you well know. I have always backed any removal/addition with arguments. Sfacets 13:30, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Even if that were true, some arguments are so flimsy as to be unworthy of the name. --Simon D M 13:34, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Again, thanks for your opinion. Very useful and constructive as always. Sfacets 13:39, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

It's not my theory, please point out one reliable 3rd party source that isn't drawing their information on Mataji's birth date from her own claims. Anyway the argument was Reductio ad absurdum. You are happy to report Mataji's various claims but not the claims of her critics. You accept X reliable source says these criticisms have been made, rather than pointing directly to the criticisms being made - that's not the same as stating the criticisms as fact, just saying that they have been made. Your insisting on a 3rd party to confirm what is directly evident is simply a case of: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ#Lack_of_neutrality_as_an_excuse_to_delete You operate no such 'high' standard when it comes to the claims of SY. --Simon D M 12:17, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

There is no controversy surrounding the issue. (Except that imagined up by yourself). Again, if the critical claims check out source-wise they are kept. Please read above for discussion on reliability of sources and attribution. Sfacets 13:30, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Sfacets, check this out: WP:UCS and this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:FRINGE#Sourcing_and_attribution especially the section on parity of sources. --Simon D M 14:24, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

That's exactly what I have been talking to you about! Good that you looked it up. "Primary sources about research and investigations should only be used to verify the text and should not be relied upon exclusively as doing so would violate Wikipedia's ban on original research. In the case of obscure fringe theories, secondary sources that describe the theories should be carefully vetted for reliability. This includes references, citations, and external links". I'm expecting reliable secondry sources from you now. Sfacets 14:27, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

And the section on parity of sources that I particularly pointed you towards says: "Inclusion and exclusion of content related to fringe theories and criticism of fringe theories may be done by means of a rough parity of sources... if a notable fringe theory is primarily described by amateurs and self-published texts, verifiable and reliable criticism of the fringe theory need not be published in a peer review journal. For example, the Apollo moon landing hoax accusations article may generally include material gleaned from websites, movies, television specials, and books that are not peer reviewed. Verifiable critiques of that material can likewise be gleaned from websites and books that are not peer reviewed since the accusations themselves are not peer reviewed. Parity of sources may mean that certain obscure fringe theories are only reliably and verifiably reported or criticized in alternative venues from those that are typically used in publishing about mainstream topics." --Simon D M 14:54, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

You left out "If an article is written about a well-known, mainstream topic, fringe theories that may seem relevant but are only sourced by obscure texts that lack peer review should not be included in the article". Also see the example given"Creation science". Sfacets 15:03, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Correct, it is irrelevant because Sahaja Yoga is not "a well-known, mainstream topic". --Simon D M 15:16, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Or rather, your opinions are not a large or widespread fringe theory. Sfacets 15:24, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Let's not share our views of this religious group, especially views which are disparaging. We're just here to write an encyclopedia article, not debate about the merits of a belief system. However I'd agree that SY is not a "well-known, mainstream topic". ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:37, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I won't even start with what Simon thinks he is. (Find the grail yet Simon?) I removed the libelous comment above per Wiki guidelines. Sfacets 23:23, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

You're attempts to provoke are uncivil. --Simon D M 21:37, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

hello Simon. I see you're still trying to be the great expert on Sahaja Yoga. As usual, well off line. A lot has changed since you were expelled in 1990. In particular, the administrative framework is quite different from what you assert above. Sahajhist 05:38, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

I was only expelled some weeks after having left as part of a group of a dozen or so people, as you may well have heard on the Sahaja Yoga mailing list before you abused the trust of the members and vandalised it. I'm well aware that things have changed. I wasn't aware that I'd made any assertions about the administrative framework. This page is about Sahaja Yoga not me. You and Sfacets have been systematically sanitising these pages. This must stop. Sahaja Yoga is a religious movement devoted to the worship of, and submission to, Nirmala Srivatava. I am aware of announcements about the desirabilty of appearing to be an innocuous stress relief program, but not about any real change. If there has been such an announcement, perhaps you could cite it. --Simon D M 21:37, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

new website link on NGO

New NGO Link: www.nirmalprem.org —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gatla.subhash (talk • contribs) 07:42, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

website is currently under construction --Simon D M 17:13, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

"Bohdan Shehovich"

Why does sourced material on the World Leader Bohdan Shehovich keep being removed? We discussed it above but I think all the objections have been addressed. The council of world leaders is the head of the organization. They are obviously very important to SY. More important, I'd say, than some musical groups. Yet information about the council and its leaders keeps getting deleted. Please explain the reasoning. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:47, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

I'd also like to hear why the info on ex-World Leader Guido Lanza is being removed. As you guys well know he is a much more notable figure, having been a World Leader in SY for around 2 decades from back in the time when there were only 3 of them, he arranged many marriages, he ran the Rome School, etc. Who apart from Mataji, CP, Warren Reeves and maybe Gregoire is more notable? --Simon D M 21:53, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

The objections haven't been addressed - and all that is being removed is Simon's opinion that someone with the "same unusual name" is mentioned on the site. The information on Guido is also based on Simon's Original Research - all that he is offering as proof of Guido's denial of entry into the UK (the only perhaps remotely notable point) is a heavily edited low-res scanned image allegedly from the UK police hosted on a Critical website (which Simon is involved in editing) which states only that Guido is "on the immigration list" - which could mean anything. The preceding contet is copied from the Yahoo group that Simon maintains. Sfacets 23:03, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Is your objection to the Bohdan Shehovich material still that there are more than on person by that name active in SY Australia? If so, then how can we prove that any individual isn't another person? For example, how do we know that one mention of a "Nirmala Srivastava" or "Shri Mataji" refers to the same person as another reference to those same names? And what is the complaint about mentioning Guido Lanza? (I agree that unsourced assertions shouldn't be included - I'm talking about sourced assertion). If your concern is that they aren't notable then we need to review the inclusion of less notable people and groups in the article. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:48, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

All we have is two people with the same name. As I said above, there are many sources connecting "Nirmala Srivastava" or "Shri Mataji" to SY, whereas there is nothing showing that 'Bohdan' is the same Bohdan in both sources. I have nothing against adding info on Guido, if reliable sources are provided (although I don't see how he is notable, or how notability inside or outside the organization can be shown) and the information is relevant to the subject of the article. Sfacets 23:57, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

According to what source are there two people named "Bohdan Shehovich" who are doctors in Australia and involved in Sahaja Yoga? How do we know that there aren't five, or a hundred? There is no way of proving it. Likewise, there is no evidence that there aren't five people named "Nirmala Srivasta" who are involved in Sahaja Yoga. Can you prove that there is only one such person? I think we need to treat both cases the same. Both are unusual names, and in neither case are there actual indications of separate individuals within SY having the same names.

IMO, this objection is so ridiculous that it goes beyond careful editing and qualifies as disruption.

The subject of the article is SY, an organisation now overseen by the World Council (WCASY). The actions and membership of the WCASY are of central importance to the group, and therefore to this article. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:57, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not the one seeking to add information, the burden of evidence is on the submitter. A secondary source is needed to establish the connection between the "two individuals" called Bohdan. It would be Original Research to conclude that since the people share the same name they are the same person, and also potentialy libelous to do so. The organization isn't overseen by the world council. According to the purpose outlined on the website, "The purpose of this body is to stimulate the further growth of Sahaja Yoga and to provide support to the efforts of all the national collectives". The actions undertaken by the council are internal to the organization, and therefore are non-notable outside it, making mentioning their names unnecessary, since non of these people have been shown to be notable outside the organization. Sfacets 04:01, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Many topics about SY are not notable enough to be mentioned outside of the organisation. Should our standard for inclusion be 3rd-party sources? That would certainly make the related articles much smaller, especially the Sahaja Yoga meditation and International Sahaja Public School articles. If this standard is the consensus of the talk page I'll start removing everying that isn't shown to be notabl outside SY.

Regarding 'the "two individuals" called Bohdan', we can fix that in the same way we fix 'the "five individuals" called Nirmala'. Unless we can solve them then we'll need to remove both. Again, we'll need to have a consensus for that policy. So far, I think you're the only one asserting the existence of a second Bohdan. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:53, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

As I said, primary sources can be used if attributed. Unlike Bohdan, Nirmala Srivastava is notable in that she has been the subject of many academic sources - most of which establish/confirm that a person named Nirmala Srivastava started the SY movement. I'm not asserting that there is a second Bohdan, that would require a secondary source. I don't seek to add anything about Bohdan to the article, therefore the burden of proof isn't on me. Sfacets 05:12, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you are asserting that there is a second Bohdan. You refer to the "the "two individuals" called Bohdan". I assert there are five individuals named Nirmala. If you want to add anything to the article about a persona named "Nirmala", thene it is your burden to prove that the Nirmala in one reference is the same person as another Nirmala.

Regarding notability, the World Council is the highest and final authority in SY. Higher, apparently, then any of those five people named Nirmala. If you don't think it is notable because it is not covered in a 3rd-party source then we should delete all the parts of Sy that aren't similarly notable. Which is it? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:23, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Notice the " " scare quotes. Drawing the parallel between verifying a notable person who has been the subject of articles and someone who has been the subject of 1 article is ridiculous. You are jumping to extremes, as usual when you are unable to logically back up your argument - ignoring what I previously wrote, and soon you will take some drastic editing measure to prove your point. I am not asserting that there are two Bogdans, but if you want to find sources proving your asserting re: the 5 Nirmala Srivastavas - go right ahead. Sfacets 05:38, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

It is certainly not ridiculous to assert there is only one Dr. Bohdan Shehovich in the Australian SY. On the contrary, it is ridiculous to assert the opposite, as you are doing. Note that you are deleting all references to him. If if we don't assert they are the same persons, we should at least be able to mention "them". One of them is on the highest authority in SY. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:22, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

You can mention the 'world leader', but connecting him with the subject of the newspaper article is Original Research. Sfacets 06:29, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Fine, I don't see we need to say they're the same person. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:32, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Why do you mention that Bohdan Shehovych is a recent addition to the WCASY? How is this notable? I removed Guido, the source says nothing about him being a world leader or part of WCASY Sfacets 07:27, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

You removed sourced, NPOV material covering recent chnages in the highest authority of the SY. I've restored it. It's obviously notable and we should cover it in more detail. We both know that Lanza was a WCASY member. I'll add a source for it. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 07:40, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

It isn't the reference but the relevance I have an issue with. Are you going to add all the news from the organization to the article now? Your addition of the Russian leader's resignation is also neither relevant or notable. Sfacets 07:49, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

A) The WCASY is the most important body in the SY. B) Changes in membership are reported in one of the official SY websites. C) If I understand correctly, many of the WCASY members are also leaders of their national collectives. Changes in the national leadership of collectives is doubly relevant and notable. D) The personnel changes are summarized here in a neutral manner. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 08:23, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

So according to you any/all information pertaining to the WCASY should be added to the article? I think they had a barbecue last week... Sfacets 09:08, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

No, I don't suggest that "any/all" information is worth adding. But the basic structure, key indivuals, sub-committees, and a few other details are worth including. While the comparison is not exact, the WCASY appears analogous to the College of Cardinals. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 09:58, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

So why are you adding minor details about individuals within the WCASY? Sfacets 10:11, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

What minor details? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 10:40, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

You added that one of the leader resigned and that one of them got kicked out. What does this have to do with the structure or key individuals? Sfacets 10:46, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Bohdan & Guido's appointments and 'resignations' are notable enough to be reported on offical SY sites and the sites of their critics. The Metropolitan Police have even seen fit to issue a letter about one of them. The Sfacets multiple personality disorder can surely be dealt with by simply naming the people involved. Am I going wrong somewhere? Remember I'm new around here and a little support would be appreciated. --Simon D M 11:48, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

If you don't stop with the Personal Attacks you will be banned from editing.

Issues with your recent additions:

1.

"In 2004 an Australian general practitioner called Bohdan Shehovych was made a World Leader in Sahaja Yoga and appointed to the World Council for the Advancement of Sahaja Yoga"

How do you know if he is a general practitioner?

2.

"another long time Sahaja Yoga World Leader and original member of the World Council for the Advancement of Sahaja Yoga [9] (Trustee of the Sahaja Yoga World Trust and Chairman of the Board of Directors of the Sahaja Yoga World Centre

This is a) Duplicate material b)Unsourced c) Original Research in that it makes claims unsupported by the source, suh as how long he has beeen a leader.

3.

Headmaster of the Rome School)

Which school is that? Also unsourced

4.

"has been reported as being on the Immigration List of the UK Home office (ie he would be arrested on entry to the UK) A photograph of a heavily edited letter, allegedly from the Metropolitan Police, is provided as evidence by a critical website."

Again, no source - and no secondary source analysing the primary one (ie the alleged Police letter)

5.

[10] This World Leader was suspended from all activities in Sahaja Yoga in 2005, reportedly for disrupting a havan ritual and threatening members of Sahaja Yoga.

Duplicate content. Also unsourced here.

Sfacets 12:00, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

1. see: http://gpra.e-newsletter.com.au/link/id/7dd4b904ad6068ddd703/page.html

  and: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/syrc/message/268

2. a) do you have evidence that every member of the World Council for the Advancement of Sahaja Yoga is also a

     Trustee of the Sahaja Yoga World Trust? Certainly not all the trustees or council members are Chairman of
     the Board of Directors of the Sahaja Yoga World Centre.
  b) see: http://www.sahajayoga.org/swan/view/swan_209_2003.asp
     and: http://www.sahajayoga.org/swan/view/swan_262_2004.asp
  c) length of time is not specified, you need another example. Also note that you must give time for sources to be found.

3. Rome School means the Sahaja School in Rome. Give time for the source to be found. 4. Give time for the source to be found. Do you think the Metropolitan Police might be informing the relevant department

  of Interpol about a parking violation? This is a serious and notable document.

5. The source is given as: http://www.sahajayoga.com/swan/view_swan.asp?mode=print&swanid=503

  it actually says "has interrupted a Havan assaulting some sahaja yogis from Rome with insults, threats and attempts
  of physical aggression" which is stronger than the current wording of the article. Don't see how this is duplicate content.

Regarding Personal Attacks, please see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pot_calling_the_kettle_black I hope this helps although much of it you could have found by simply looking at the article carefully. --Simon D M 11:01, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

1. Did you seriously just reference your own Yahoo group? Your second link doesn't work. 2. Thanks for adding sources (it should still be attributed) 3. Waiting... 4. According to your POV. Waiting for a source. 5. Waiting for a source.

Sfacets 14:26, 5 November 2007 (UTC) About personal attacks - try reading WP:PA and then come back and talk to me.

1. I've already removed the GP statement. 2. I think you'll find the sources were already there when you made your complaint. 3. OK 4. Let's wait to see if Will thinks this is a inadmissable ref 5. Source already give twice. Unless you are complaining that GL is referred to as a World Leader. OK, I've changed the article to no longer call him that just to make you happy although the implication of pages like http://www.sahajayoga.org/swan/view/swan_257_2004.asp is clearly that wcasy members are world leaders. RE: WP:PA I have read it. --Simon D M 15:28, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Edits

Could Simon please discuss them here? Sfacets 11:44, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Speaking of which, you aren't discussing your edits either. You deleted a whole section without any explanation.[11] I suggest you set the example you want others to follow. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:24, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

I removed it because I created it. It isn't going to expand, so I removed it. Sfacets 22:18, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

It isn't your content. It belongs to the project. I'm going to restore it pending a consensus on the matter. If you want others to discuss their edits, and complain when they don't, then please show the same courtesy yourself. Also, please comment on the edits, not the editors. I've removed an editor's name that you aded to this section heading, because it focused on the editor. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:39, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

You prove my point regarding your lack of objectivity regarding my edits - this is a passage you were dead set against adding. Now that I remove it - all of a sudden you want it kept. Sfacets 14:26, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I would gladly stick to 1RR, however it would help if Simon discusses his edits before adding large chunks of unsourced and POV information to the article. I see no reason not to revert if his edits remain undiscussed. Sfacets 22:22, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Please re-read WP:3RR. Lack of discussion alone is not a sufficient reason for exceeding the revert limit. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:39, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Will, do you think that the information on the Sahaja Yoga World Leader being on the Home Office's immigration list needs to be removed because the source of the accusation and evidence is not reliable and neutral enough? Are you saying the same thing about SY's statement on his threatening behaviour? --Simon D M 12:12, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Simon D M's edits

Please discuss your edits before undoing other editor's work - you made five edits where you removed content. Please be more considerate in your edits- Will Beback - are you going to warn him about 3RR now? Sfacets 14:26, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I removed one sentence of content and explained exactly why. The reference supposedly supporting the sentence did not do so. If you think it does, please say why. We need to be careful about not being fuzzy about Sahaja Yoga the meditation method, the new religious movement, the formal organisation, etc. A statement about one does not necessarily apply to the other. --Simon D M 15:09, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

"A photograph of a heavily edited letter, allegedly from the Metropolitan Police, is provided as evidence by the critical website. [12] This World Leader was suspended from all activities in Sahaja Yoga in 2005, reportedly for disrupting a havan ritual "assaulting some sahaja yogis from Rome with insults, threats and attempts of physical aggression.".

This letter could have been made by anyone...it is not even signed ! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.41.161.47 (talk) 23:24, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

When is the letter dated? What's to say that the letter and/or the placement of Guido's name on the list happened before 2005? If it happened after then it isn't relevant to the article, since that is when he ceased to be part of SY. Sfacets 14:41, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Has he ceased to be part of SY? Have you got a reference for that? I only saw that he'd resigned his official posts. It's not worth wasting our breath over till Will pronounces his view about whether the section relating to the letter should be removed--Simon D M 15:09, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

"Ceased all activities" means that he is no longer part of the Org. Sfacets 15:13, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

True, but he's still running his SY splinter group. Anyway the letter predates his departure. --Simon D M 15:33, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Source? Sfacets 22:25, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Let's wait to see what Will says before running round looking for more sources. --Simon D M 09:57, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Why? Because he's an experienced editor without conflict of interest. I expect a fair and reasoned judgement from him. --Simon D M 13:02, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

My view is that the source for the letter does not meet Wikipedia standards for this type of assertion. Souorcing aside, if an SY World Leader committed a felony while a leader then that would certainly be relevant. However, if he committed the crime and served his time before becoming a member of SY, before attaining self-realization, and long before becoming a World Leader then I don't think it's relevant to this article. There a many reasons a person might be prohibited from entering a country. The U.S. maintains a list with at least tens of thousands of names. I wouldn't consider it terribly relevant to the article about a religious group if one of their leaders was on that list for unknown reasons. Since we don't know why this fellow in on the U.K. list, or how the U.K. decides to exclude someone, I don't think we should make too much of it. If malfeasance among World Leaders were ever to become a common and verifiable problem then this may become more relevant. Otherwise I don't think we should include it. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:25, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I take your point, I'll remove it. --Simon D M 12:01, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

"The meditation is described as a syncretism of different religions that "unites the essence of all religions". " The reference is to a section on whether Sahaja Yoga is a religion. It is clearly not just about the meditation technique and the statement in it referred to is also clearly not just about the meditation technique. So the statement is not supported by the source and had to go. I don't see why Sfacets reverted this. --Simon D M 15:37, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Clearly how so? Sfacets 17:09, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Meditation is not mentioned in that section until 2 paragraphs later, and then only in passing. The section is pretending to talk about Sahaja Yoga as a whole, not just meditation. Can you demonstrate otherwise? --Simon D M 17:40, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

The two are inter-connected - here they are talking about the beliefs of Sahaja Yoga which pertains to the meditation side - the organisation isn't a a syncretism of different religions. Sfacets 22:25, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Interconnected does not mean interchangable. Pertaining makes no difference. Actually you remind me that all the (junk) scientific studies that have been done on SY have only been done on SY meditation, and do not validate SY (including all the Mataji worship, shoe beating, arranged marriages, etc). That should be made clear. --Simon D M 09:57, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually, if you read the sources, you will see that the studies were confirmed by third parties. Sfacets 21:28, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

The 'interconnected does not mean interchangable' point remains. The issue of scientific studies into SY is very complex. Most, if not all, studies do not have credible meditation control groups, thus confounding the effects of SY meditation with meditation per se. The waters are further muddied by having investigators with a conflict of interest who do not disclose this. So SY research has all the hallmarks of junk science and it would need to be clearly demonstrated that this is not the case with full disclosure from all those involved. It is even more important that the researchers are independent than that the funding is independent. Independent funding of studies by researchers with [non-disclosed] conflict of interest is still poor science and ultimately a waste of independent funding and abuse of the funding body. --Simon D M 11:34, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

You removed sourced and quoted content, replacing the quote found in the article ""significantly more effective than the generic approach in reducing stress, anxiety and depressive symptoms" with your own "effective than the [one other] generic approach [tested] in reducing stress, anxiety and depressive symptoms" please explain. Sfacets 17:09, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

a straight quote out of context is misleading in this case, the true sense is revived by this edit. "the generic approach in reducing stress" without qualification would suggest that there is only one generic approach and that sy is more effective. The article is not saying that. It is comparing SY with one particular 'credible' generic method, and only making claims relative to that method. --Simon D M 17:40, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

That's according o your POV - you cannot change a quote from a source to suit that. Sfacets 22:25, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Nothing to do with POV, that's what the article clearly states, that SY meditation was compared with one other credible generic method. If you have nothing constructive to contribute I will restore my orginal edit. --Simon D M 09:57, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I suggest you open a Request for comment if you want to take this further. Changing a quote is unacceptable. Sfacets 21:28, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

On the contrary, it is standard practice in academic articles to restore the original sense of a quote using inserts in square brackets. To quote wikipedia: "bracketed comments indicate when original text has been modified for clarity" [13]

The view is not coming from the Medical Observer as suggested, but from Ramesh Manocha, a Sahaja Yogi (although he doesn't declare this to the journals that publish his articles). In the T&Cs the Medical Observer makes no warranty that "its Content or information is complete, up-to-date or appropriate for clinical decisions." [14] --Simon D M 17:52, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Unless Dr Manocha is talking about himself in the third person, the author is more than likely someone else, probably Associate Professor John Eden. Sfacets 22:59, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Referring to yourself in the 3rd person is common in academic and pseudo-academic articles. The issue is the author of the article. John Eden is the coordinator of the 'herbs in focus' section of the site. See: http://www.medicalobserver.com.au/displayarticle/index.asp?articleID=2650&templateID=108&sectionID=0&sectionName= --Simon D M 09:57, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Nowhere in the article or website does it claim that Manocha is the author. Sfacets 21:28, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

They wouldn't publish an article without stating the author. You need to know how to read a byline. Take a look at another example from the same publication here: http://www.medicalobserver.com.au/displayarticle/index.asp?articleID=1980&templateID=108&sectionID=0&sectionName= While only the author is mentioned in the byline (standard practice), both author and editor/coordinator are fully referenced at the bottom of the articles (also very common). --Simon D M 11:55, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

The author could just as easily be the other person mentionned. Sfacets 21:27, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Only you have difficutly figuring out who the author is. The article has a standard byline that only mentions Manocha. John Eden is the coordinator of the Herbs in Focus section which is obvious not only from the article itself but from other articles in the Herbs in Focus section. As it appears you have nothing further to add on this discussion apart from "the author could be John Eden", and I have repeatedly explained why this is obviously not the case, there is no point continuing with this discussion. I don't mind serious discussion but this has gone far enough. Case closed. --Simon D M 10:42, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

You can open an RFC if you want, however IMO you cannot claim that the author is someone when it isn't expressly written in the source. Sfacets 11:17, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

It is expressly written in the byline. He is also named as the author on this page: http://www.thesmilingdoctor.com/What_s_Hot.html Maybe you should write to Dr Wadegaonkar and tell him he's got the author wrong. And while you're about it, write to the Medical Observer and tell them that you think their format is confusing people. If you need help then feel free to open an RFC. I'm sorry to be so blunt but your constantly shifting objections to non-controversial edits are a real time-waster, and I'm not wasting any more on this. --Simon D M 16:30, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

So open an RFC - you are the one seeking to change content. This discussion is indeed over - either open an RFC or move on - Wikipedia isn't a depository for your Original Research. Sfacets 22:08, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I am going to ask Simon once again to be courteous and discuss major proposed changes here. His large ondiscussed and unconsesnsed changes to the article are disruptive. Feel free to add inormation - but if you need to change/remove/re-organize content, then please have consideration for other editor's work which has gone into the article. Sfacets 22:13, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Can we expect all editors to follow that same standard? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:39, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Ramesh Manocha

It appears that Ramesh Manocha ("R. Manocha"), "a clinical research fellow at the Sydney Royal Hospital for Women's Natural Therapies Unit"[15], has done considerable writing and research connected with SY, and there is also indication that he practices and advocates SY meditation.

• Manocha, R. “Sahaja yoga in asthma”, Thorax 2003;58:825-826. URL: http://thorax.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/58/9/825-a
• Manocha R, Marks GB, Kenchington P, Peters D, Salome CM. “Sahaja yoga in the management of moderate to severe asthma: a randomized controlled trial.”, Thorax. 2003 Sep;58(9):825-6. [16]
• Ramesh Manocha, Sahaja State and Therapeutic Consciousness: High Quality Empirical Evidence for a New Definition of Meditation [17]
• Harrison, L.J., Manocha, R., & Rubia, K. (2004). Sahaja Yoga Medictation as a family treatment programme for children with Attention Deficit-Hyperactivity Disorder.[18]
  • The authors gratefully acknowledge the contribution of Alice Bhasale, Robert Hutcheon, Kim Pearce, Liallyn Fitzpatrick, Ione Docherty and other Sahaja Yoga instructors who provided training for the participants on a voluntary basis. Sarah Yates help with data entry is gratefully acknowledged. We also thank the Royal Hospital for Women, University of New South Wales, for providing facilities for running the meditation clinic. Importantly, we thank the developer of Sahaja Yoga meditation, Mrs Nirmala Shrivastava (Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi), for her advice and permission to evaluate her technique. We acknowledge that, as a matter of principle, Sahaja Yoga is always taught free of charge.[19]
  • "Drug-free treatment for ADHD" Interview on Australian TV.[20]
• Manocha R, Black D, Spiro D, Ryan J, Stough C (2007) Skin Temperature Changes Associated With Practice Of Sahaja Yoga Meditation Or Rest, an exploratory study, in press.[21]
• "Making sense of meditation" Dr Ramesh Manocha considers the effectiveness of meditation as a treatment. 13 August 2004
• "New Scientific Insights in Meditation and Mental Silence: Its Effects on Wellbeing, Stress and Performance" SPEAKER: Dr Ramesh Manocha MBBS BSc, TIME: 1:00pm – 2:00pm, 10th October 2007 [22]
  • A brief hands-on meditation session aimed at eliciting the state of mental silence. The same technique that was used in our clinical and physiological trials, Sahaja Yoga, will be demonstrated for the audience to personally experience the practical aspects of meditation
• "Clinical Applications of Meditation", 6th International Holistic Health Conference 2000 (Lorne, Victoria – Australia) and published in the book "Pathways to Holistic Health", published by the Monash Institute of Public Health. [23]
• Manocha R, "Meditation, Sahaja and the Indian idea of optimal consciousness: Reconciling the modern evidence base with popular and traditional perceptions by revisiting the original definitions of meditation" Toward a Science of Consciousness 2006, April 4-8, 2006, Tucson Convention Center, Tucson, Arizona, Sponsored by The Center for Consciousness Studies, The University of Arizona, Tucson, Arizona [24][25]
• "He has just finished a seven-year doctoral research project "aimed at the answering the question: does meditation work in any way - body, mind, spirit, whatever?"...At the Sydney Menopause Centre, Manocha has also used sahaja to treat a group of women suffering hot flushes. The women had about a 70 per cent reduction in their hot flushes over eight weeks, he says....Last year, he tried the technique on a group of children with Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder."[26]
• "Ramesh Manocha, who ran the yoga trial, said at the end nine out of 10 women had experienced more than a 50 per cent improvement in their menopausal symptoms.``That's the kind of effect you would see with HRT. But Dr Manocha said there was no evidence to support most natural alternatives."[27]
• "Today, a happy home is also a sanctuary from encroaching stress. Ramesh Manocha, the former director of the Meditation Research Unit at Sydney's Royal Hospital for Women, has found that a meditation technique called sahaja yoga can improve chronic conditions such as asthma, migraine and menopause symptoms. He describes the home meditation room he uses daily as "a place you don't bring the rest of your life". "You don't do your tax return there and you don't have arguments there," he says. "I have two children aged two and three and they understand the meditation room is a place for quiet. If you bring children up to respect a meditation space in the same way you bring them up to wash their hands, then they will."All's well For details of free classes in sahaja yoga meditation in the Sydney area, go to http://www.freemeditation.com.au" [28]
• "A medical doctor from Australia, Ramesh Manocha has conducted clinical studies of the effect of meditation on people, and, in particular, advocates the Sahaja Yoga technique, which, he claims, studies have proven to be the most effective method of enhancing one’s emotional intelligence and thus impacted the individual consciousness positively. This, in turn, had a positive effect on organizational development."[29]

He has also written on other, non-medical topics, including a review of a book titled "Jesus Lived in India" that says:

• The implications of Kersten’s discovery are monumental. Christ’s life in India, after the crucifixion, challenges current Church teachings at their very foundation. The theology of Saint Paul, the major influence on modern Christianity, is empty fanaticism in the light of this discovery. Threatened also are the doctrines of obedience to the Church, original sin, salvation through blind faith and the non-existence of reincarnation, etc. Yet these ideas underlie the morality and ethics, (or lack of them), that govern the entire Western social structure, from the legal system to medical health care schemes. It is no wonder that the modern Churches and their secular interests refuse to consider such a proposition as Kersten’s! [30]

His are qualifications variously listed as:

• Dr Ramesh Manocha is a Barry Wren Fellow at the Natural Therapies Unit, Royal Hospital for Women, Sydney. Associate Professor John Eden, MBBS, MD, MRCOG, FRANZCOG, CREI, is the director of the Sydney Menopause Centre and Natural Therapies Unit, Royal Hospital for Women, Sydney.
• RAMESH MANOCHA is a general practitioner and researcher who currently holds the Barry Wren Research Fellowship at the Royal Hospital for Women and the School of Womens and Childrens Health, Faculty of Medicine, University of New South Wales, Sydney, Australia where he is involved in scientific evaluation of complementary and alternative medicines. In 1998 he established the Meditation Research Programme (MRP). Since that time, the MRP has conducted exploratory clinics, physiological evaluations and several high-quality randomized controlled trials. In 2002 the MRP was approached by members of the community to explore the potential of Sahaja Yoga meditation for children with ADHD and thus the ‘Meditation for ADHD Clinic was initiated. Dr Manocha is a recipient of the Bernard Lake Memorial Prize for complementary medicine research. CONTACT : Natural Therapies Unit, Royal Hospital for Women, Locked Bag XXX, Randwick, NSW 2031, Australia. E-mail: XXX@unsw.edu.au[31]

Steven Hassan writes:

• Meanwhile in Sydney, Australia a franchise group of medical centres have decided to offer its patients free Sahaja Yoga programs, as bona fide treatment to alleviate stress. All those patients who complain of stress or stress-related diseases to any of the doctors serving these medical centres will be referred to the Stress Management Programmes run by a Dr. Ramesh Manocha and other yogis. [32]

According to a speech by Sir CP, Dr. Manocha was part of the medical team that treated Shri Mataji in 2006.

• I can go on and on about this, but I want to tell something a little more, and it is that I am deeply grateful to Australia and Australian Sahaja Yogis, your collective, for having provided the medical team which has looked after your Mother, and I want to express my very, very deep gratitude to Dr. Bohdan and Dr. Ramesh Manocha, and the nurses, sisters who are here. [33]

What to make of this? We can't second guess the reliablity of the peer-reviewed journals that have published his work. It may be worth noting, though, that Menocha specializes in doing research on SY, advocates its uses, and practices it himself. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:26, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

... and that he attends to Nirmala Srivastava's personal medical needs. The peer-reviewed journals are not aware of Manocha's conflict of interest as he does not declare it. This is certainly the case with Thorax with whom I have corresponded. Monocha sent me a series of emails denying he was an SY and making all sorts of wild threats if I wrote a formal letter to Thorax as they suggested. I felt the guy was fighting to save his career and felt sorry for him so let it go. However, the fact is certainly relevant to this article. Incidentally, I don't think you are quoting Steve Hassan directly, but rather an article that he published which is a commentary on Sahaja Yoga newsletters. --Simon D M 09:27, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

What is Sahaja Yoga

The beginning of this article is clunky because it defines SY as a practice and then goes on to talk about associated beliefs, organisation, guru/goddess, etc. What is the overarching concept here that includes all the others? It is New Religious Movement - that includes all the other facets. The article would be improved if it started like this:

Sahaja Yoga (Sahaja meaning innate and Yoga meaning union) is a new religious movement founded by Nirmala Srivastava, more widely known as "Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi" or "Mother" by followers - who worship her as the complete [34] incarnation of the Adi Shakti. The term Sahaja Yoga can also be used to refer to the practices that are promoted by the movement, including meditation and puja. There are a number of formal organizational bodies within Sahaja Yoga, the main one being known as Sahaja Yoga International or Vishwa Nirmala Dharma.

Sahaja Yoga grew from India and England (where Nirmala Srivastava moved in 1972) and spread internationally. There are now Sahaja Yoga centers around the world .

As this is a major change, I'm putting it up for discussion and of course welcome constructive input. --Simon D M 16:21, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

It is simple - what came first, the meditation or the organization? Sahaja Yoga meditation exists separately of the organization. The intro is fine as it is, except for the "the complete [4] incarnation of the Adi Shakti" (which isn't in the source). Your knowledge of the organizational structure of SY appears to be outdated, it has been a long time since you "left". Sfacets 21:32, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually it's more about the overarching concept. However, the movement came first. Mataji has had a group of followers since at least 1971. She only started 'raising kundalini' of groups in January 1972. After that the current techniques developed over a decade or so. So the movement came first.--Simon D M 09:34, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Sfacets, "since you got kicked out" is an inappropriate personal remark verging on a personal attack. Please comment on the edits, not the editors. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:53, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I am just establishing context - it wasn't an attack just a statement of fact. Sfacets 21:29, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

It's unnecessary. Please don't make further negative personal comments about other editors. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:46, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I've changed the wording. Sfacets 23:28, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

As there's no further comment, I'll go ahead. --Simon D M 11:25, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

There is further comment. Wait for concensus before applying disputed changes. You are being disruptive, but I will stick to my 1 revert. - perhaps someone else could revert pending consensus on this issue? Sfacets 11:29, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I thought the fact that you had revisited this section but not said anything more on the issue meant you'd finished. Actually I don't think saying that SY is a NRM is all that controversial, after all Mataji calls SY a global religion. SY is certainly a lot more than a practice. --Simon D M 11:35, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I've now read the prior discussion on this. Originally 'cult' was a neutral word. It became problematic. 'NRM' was designed to be a new neutral word with only a partial overlap to leave 'cult' behind. If people are saying that NRM is becoming problematic then we need to see where the problem is coming from - it's coming from high profile cases of a few of these NRMs giving the others a bad name. It's not to do with the word NRM which is neutral and descriptive, you could even say bland. Call SY meditation a practice by all means, but SY in its totality is a NRM, and any academic study that has tried to study SY in its totality has labelled it a NRM. --Simon D M 12:32, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Sfacets, are if your only objection is to term "complete" re: incarnation, why not add the rest and continue sdiscussing that one issue? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:52, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the word and link pending a resolution of the dispute. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:57, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

In addition to the original quote that was supplied, we have: "The Adi Shakti is the Great Mother... Today her most complete incarnation is living on the earth to start the Golden Age; in this incarnation her name is Sri Mataji Nirmala Devi." The Advent, 1979, Gregoire de Kalbermatten (author), p298, cited in Sahaja Yoga, by Judith Coney, pp103-4 --Simon D M 10:18, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Sfacets, I notice you've dropped out of this discussion but you are continuing to replace references to a NRM or movement with references to a practice. Please explain yourself. --Simon D M 13:51, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I haven't dropped out of any discussion, and don't know what you are talking about, please clarify. Sfacets 14:16, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Are you still trying to deny that SY is a NRM? If not, why are you replacing references to it being a movement with things like "practices and associated beliefs"? --Simon D M 14:25, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not replacing anything - You are the one reverting a much revised introduction. Without awaiting consensus. Sfacets 14:37, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

It was a dog's dinner. The fact that SY is a NRM is fully established and adopting that framework simplifies the article greatly. The constant shifting between practice, belief and organisation within no framework just made for confusion. If you have something further to say on the matter just say it, or we can close off this discussion and move on. --Simon D M 14:54, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Beliefs Section/Merge with Sahaja Yoga meditation

You can't talk about an NRM without talking about its beliefs. So we need a section on that. Most of the Sahaja Yoga meditation article is just about the beliefs surrounding SY meditation and could be incorporated easily. That would lead little left in the Sahaja Yoga meditation article which is no bad thing because it doesn't really say much about SY meditation eg where the attention is put etc --Simon D M 16:59, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

If you read prior discussions you will see that it was already previously incorporated, but the article was getting too long. Sfacets 11:11, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Please read the prior discussions. If you want to re-open the issue, try an RFC. Sfacets 11:27, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

OK, I've added a short Beliefs section to give some kind of context to the practices. I'll look at the previous discussion on the issue of length. --Simon D M 11:32, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Sfacets, I see you have cut out the short Beliefs section. I've read through all the prior discussions pages and I don't see any objections to having such a short beliefs section. If I've missed something, pls give the url. An article on an NRM without one is patently absurd. Farming the Beliefs section to the Sahaja Yoga meditation page is highly problematic. I saw the discussion of the charts where you seemed to be in favour of including them. Actually I guess it would be fine to just link to them. That isn't a big issue as far as I can see. The Beliefs section is an issue, obviously so. --Simon D M 12:23, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Please see the discussion on Article spinouts above. If it is too long it will duplicate content. Sfacets 22:03, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

There is not spin-out article on General SY Beliefs, the beliefs of the beliefs section do not only apply to SY meditation so do not belong on that page. That pagy should refer to the main SY page for general beliefs pertaining to SY. The SY meditation page is currently mostly off-topic and should not be controlling what is on the main page.--Simon D M 10:06, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Off topic how? Sfacets 13:14, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

It says a lot about the beliefs pertaining to SY in general, very little about SY meditation in particular. Almost nothing in fact. But let's leave discussion of that page to that page's discussion page. The important point here is whether a Beliefs section is pertinent to a page discussing a NRM. Either raise a valid objection to that or the section goes back in. --Simon D M 10:49, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

It is completely on topic - it isn't complete, however it discusses the basic tenet behind SY meditation ie the Chakra system, Kundalini etc. Sfacets 11:00, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

And are you trying to say that those tenets don't apply to other aspects of SY??? --Simon D M 11:02, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Other aspects such as? Sfacets 11:29, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Cleansing techniques, the functioning of the Vashi health center, bandhans, interpretation of accidents, etc etc--Simon D M 11:46, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

The Vashi health center isn't a tenet of SY. You still haven't replied to my question - why is it off topic? Sfacets 11:52, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

On the contrary, you haven't understood. I'm not listing other tenets of SY, I'm listing other aspects of SY that basic beliefs such as kundalini, chakras, nadis, etc apply to. Other examples would be chakras relating to parts of the world, days of the week, deities worshipped in pujas, qualities manifesting in everyday life. Nadis and balancing practices. Kundalinis seen in the sky. Vibrations felt here there and everywhere and used for guidance in everyday life, and even in choosing new national leaders (although this can be overridden by Mataji or CP as happened this Summer in France). Those basic concepts apply to every aspect of SY life, not just the meditation, as you well know. --Simon D M 12:01, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Lead

"The organization says the practice of Sahaja Yoga .. which may even be obtained immediately by visiting a Sahaja Yoga webpage.<ref>http://web.archive.org/web/20060101093331/http://www.sahajayoga.org/</ref>"

If you are using a link to an old archived version of the page, you will need to change the wording. Sfacets 05:45, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

IIRC, there are still websites that offer online guidance in SY meditation that will result, if done properly, in feelin a cool breeze on the top of the head, a sign of self-realization. Are you asserting that it is no longer possible to follow online instructions and achieve self-realization? We can chnage the wording to "The organization has said..." if the tense is your only issue. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:05, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

No, simply that the website in question no longer states that. Sfacets 06:09, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

That's why we're using the archived version. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 07:11, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

The main SY site seems to be offering 'Self Realisation' by online video at http://www.sahajayoga.org/experienceitnow/ which is linked on the main page. --Simon D M 16:34, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Trademark

The name Sahaja Yoga has been trademarked in the US by Vishwa Nirmala Dharma although the term goes back at least to the 15th Century Indian mystic Kabir.[35] [36]

The first references quotes Simon (yes, that is Simon D M. The second makes no reference to "Sahaja Yoga". Sfacets 13:18, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

The second one does mention the term:

• In common with the Sahajayani Buddhists Guru Nanak used the term mahasukha to describe the nature of the experience of the sahaj state of being, which may at once suggest a very close and intimate association with Sahajayani yogic practices, especially because he also uses the phrase sahaj yog in this context. But here too, one must take into consideration the fact that he uses the term mahasukh - not in its technical Tantric yogic meaning - but synonymously with paramsukh and paramanand, that is, in its literal sense of supreme pleasure, supreme joy and bliss. A technical term is not interchangeable, but Guru Nanak seems to have admitted the interchangeability of mahasukh with param sukh and param anand, and - by and through - this simple means he seems to have divested the term and concept of mahasukha of all its exclusive Tantric yogic significance.

"Sahaj yog" appears to be a different way of spelling "sahaja yoga". Is the first reference somehow invalid because it quotes someone who later became a Wikipedia editor? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:30, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

The second reference is invalid because it quotes the defendant in the case (ie Simon D Montford) - not exactly source material. Sfacets 23:04, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't see the quotation from Simon in the second source (sikhreview.org). In the first source the panel makes a finding of fact:

• Thus, the word ‘Sahajyoga’ is not only a descriptive Sanskrit word but is also a concept dating back to Buddhism adopted by saint Kabir and then also taken up by Guru Nanak in Sikhism. Accordingly, ‘Sahajayoga’ is such a common term having descriptive meaning, becoming an important religious concept which has not come into existence recently or in the year 1970 when the Complainant adopted it. It would not, therefore, be permissible that any single person, body, entity, organization or a society who can either claim or would be entitled for grant of an exclusivity or monopoly on these words and concept of Sahajayoga.

That doesn't mention SD Montfort. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:56, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

The second source is useless without the first source (which aimed at establishing that SY was a "trademark" - the second aimed at proving that the term "Sahaja Yoga" was used by Kabir.) the second source describes "sahaj yog", the first describes a concept, and doesn't discuss the name in relation to Kabirs "sahaj yog" ideas. Sfacets 01:12, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

The second sources shows the term has other uses that predate 1970. The first source shows that a neutral panel decided that the term predated 1970. If we need to source for the trademark that's easy - the U.S. PTO has an online database. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:30, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

• G & S: educational services, namely, conducting classes, workshops and seminars in the field of techniques of meditation, relaxation and self-improvement. FIRST USE: 19700000. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19730000 Filing Date: March 2, 1999, (REGISTRANT) Dharma, Vishwa Nirmala NONPROFIT RELIGIOUS CORPORATION CALIFORNIA 15445 VENTURA BLVD., #900 SHERMAN OAKS CALIFORNIA 91403 [37]

There you go. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:33, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

The second source doesn't mention "Sahaja Yoga", and describes the concept, doesn't discuss the name. I added the reference above (thanks), and moved the section to the organization section. Sfacets 02:16, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Are you saying "sahaj yog" is a differnt term than "sahaja yoga"? Also, why is the finding of the arbitration panel not a reliable source? Maybe it would be better to treat the artbitration separately, in a sentence of its own, rather than as a clause of the trademark sentence. Something like "The VND lost a case against a website titled X because the panel found the term had been used before 1970". ·:· Will Beback ·:· 02:28, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I am. There is no evidence that the two carry the same meaning or describe the same concept. To say that the case was lost because "the term had been used before 1970" is an oversimplification, and wrong. Sfacets 02:52, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Here's what I added:

• In 2001 a complaint by Vishwa Nirmala Dharma to the World Intellectual Property Organization regarding the domain name 'sahaja-yoga.org' was rejected, in part due to the determination that 'sahajayoga' is not only a descriptive Sanskrit word but is also a concept dating back to Buddhism adopted by saint Kabir and then also taken up by Guru Nanak in Sikhism', and was not created by in 1970.[36]

Should we add more? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:14, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Sfacets, the sentence I added commented on the term 'Sahaja Yoga' which, as you well know, is the same as 'Sahaj Yog'. Just because one can argue that the sense varies between Kabir, Muktananda & Rajneesh (who all used the term before Mataji), it does not change the issue of that this is the true history of the term. --Simon D M 10:53, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Sahaja Yogis even refer to SY as Sahaj Yog, see: http://www.sahajayoga.org/swan/view/swan_29_2002.asp Conclusion: it is the same term and comment on the history and varied of the term is useful in an encyclopedia article. --Simon D M 11:31, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Incidentally, the Radha Soamis also call their practice Sahaj Yog (or Sehj Yog), following Kabir. See: http://www.babafaqirchand.com/light%20on%20the%20anand%20yog1.doc And by the way, I wrote neither this article, the article in Sikh Review, nor the WIPO decision. --Simon D M 11:38, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Quotations

Despite the reverting of Simon D M and the warning of Wilbeback, I insist this

Nirmala Srivastava has stated that meditation is not thinking "about your problems at all, whatever chakras you have, anything", rather it "means exposing yourself to God’s grace." [10] She has described meditation as "an individual journey towards God." [11]

Is not the exact (correct) quotation. She said:

Don’t worry at what point you have a problem. Say, many people during meditation, I have seen, if they catch somewhere they go on looking after it. You just don’t have to worry. You just let it go and it will work by itself. So you don’t have to put in any effort. This is what meditation is. Meditation means exposing yourself to God’s grace

Either we add the correct one, either we take out this line. I don't understand what is going here ? Thank you per advance PS: And I do not understand why we should discuss and argue for such evidence. Agenor 77 12:38, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

If there is no opinion, I feel I cango on then...--Agenor 77 12:12, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

These two sets of quotations don't appear to even overlap. The page has many lines of commentary. If you want to add the lines you've cited here that's not a probelm, though it may get too long. The lines cited at top appear to be quoted accurately. The line about "an individual journey towards God" doesn't appear on that page, it may be an incorrect link. It does appear on this page.[38]. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:48, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Valaya.co.uk

Why is this website being used as a source? The link http://www.valaya.co.uk/KNOWLEDGEpujaProt1.htm for example, states its origin as being from a "Private archive", nothing else. Unless a good reason is provided to keep this as a source, I will remove it as well as associated content. Sfacets 16:20, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

I disagee. If you look at the home page it is clearly an official SY website. [39] ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:00, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

And you see this how? By the copyright information? It is obviously a private website. Sfacets 00:20, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

How do you know that? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:34, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

It is kind of obvious looking at it - have you seen other official websites sporting free counters, using tiled images as background? Sfacets 00:38, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

The page says that "all the knowledge, contents, and materials in this website come from and belong to H.H. Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi. Copyright 2001 H.H. Shri Mataji Devi 2001 all rights reserved". Are you contending that there is more than one individual called " H.H. Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi"? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 03:06, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

No, only that it isn't an official website, and is an unreliable source in this case. Sfacets 03:08, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

If it is from "H.H. Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi" then it is relevant. You assert that it's unreliable, but there's no evidence of that. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:25, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Please read Wikipedia:Verifiability This is obviously a Self-published source, and is not reliable, unless it is verified by another source. Sfacets 05:03, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

If we can prove that the material is self-published and inaccurate then I agree that it would be unreliable,. However I don't see any proof of those assertions. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:27, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not adding the information, or using the source. Please read burden of evidence. You need to provide evidence of the validity of the website as a source. Sfacets 08:29, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I have no idea about all this, but, by curiosity I have check main page of this website http://www.valaya.co.uk/, and you discover that it should be a kind of private website, or intranet maybe as a login is requested. Official website are public. So, it is a self-published website. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Agenor 77 (talk • contribs) 08:38, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I looked this up on one of those doman tools, and it's registered to a "Gian Luca Masciangelo". I don't know if that's person or a company, but its address is in Italy even though its a U.K. domain. By comparison, the "sahajayoga.org.uk" domain is registered to "LET", a known official SY organization with a suburban London address. (I guess there is more than one entity.) That being the case, I think this "www.valaya.co.uk" site looks like an overeager adherent,. Though he copyrights the information in the name of Shri Mataji, I doubt that she actually wrote most of it herself. The incorrect application of copyrights seems to be a common issue with groups like this. I'm sure it's well-intentioned. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 10:58, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

LET is Life Eternal Trust, the tax-exempt equivalent of VND (created before the term VND was coined). SYogis setting up their own websites was official policy under the Mataji-inspired Project 2800 which tried to drown out critical voices on the Web with a flood of SY sites. See: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/syrc/message/38 --Simon D M 11:07, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

But Simon Dicon Monfort who wrote this letter it's you no ? --Agenor 77 13:13, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Yeah right, I'm really going to bother writing all that. I'm surprised you want to deny your Guru's work. There's another reference in here: [40] The failed project hasn't been completely air-brushed out yet. --Simon D M 13:39, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

LET is not necessarily tax-exempt in all countries, nor is it the exact equivalent of VND. This varies from country to country. Sahajhist 13:26, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Simon, please refrain from using unreliable sources (mostly created by you) to back your claims. Sfacets 13:17, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I can understand why you are embarrassed about the attempt to drown out all critical voices on the Net, pretty shameful I agree, but it happened, and failed miserably. And if you want to accuse me of fabricating any more embarrassing material, please provide some evidence to back up your accusations. You may choose to believe what you are told in SY, but you need some evidence before you pass on such stories on this page. --Simon D M 13:46, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

There is no accusation, you signed the message that you show http://groups.yahoo.com/group/syrc/message/38 so it's an evidence. Then forgive me to suspect each and every editing of yours as it seems you are here only for that http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&limit=500&target=Simon+D+M —Preceding unsigned comment added by Agenor 77 (talk • contribs) 16:49, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

The message is not signed by anybody. I posted it. Here only for what? --Simon D M 17:21, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I see... very practical (grin) Thank you to state that you posted it.--Agenor 77 17:42, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

The message may have gone out on the old Sahajnet from Mark Mays. Check with him if you're interested. --Simon D M 17:49, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

May ? --Agenor 77 18:49, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Maybe. --Simon D M 18:52, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Nobody accused you of anything here. My issue is with you backing up your assertions with your own material. Also please comment on the edits, not the editor. Sfacets 13:56, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

"But Simon Dicon Monfort who wrote this letter it's you no ?" is an accusation in the form of a question. How is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/syrc/ any less reliable than an official SY site? --Simon D M 14:50, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

It's a question off course.. don't be paranoiac

Now let's stop the petty back-biting and get back to the subject in hand: "Valaya is in line with the international policy of Sahaja Yoga" http://www.valaya.co.uk/HOME.htm It is also listed by the Canadian site: http://www.sahajayoga.ca/WorldWide/PersonalWebsites.html --Simon D M 14:50, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

That doesn't make it a valid wikipedia source. Sfacets 21:34, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

It also seems Gian has some pretty high-powered customers: http://www.masciangelo.com/INFO_BASE_UK_3.html I think he'd no better than to start making stuff up and putting it onto his sites. --Simon D M 15:03, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

gna?

A few more edits, pleae comment on:

• There are a number of formal organizational bodies - the source http://www.wipo.int/amc/en/domains/decisions/html/2001/d2001-0467.html says nothing about a number of bodies within the organization.

• The practice and associated organization grew from India - this was an agreed on version, which you came along, and without consensus or discussion decided to change.

• Dakshina - why inflate the price? $250 is for five day accomodation at a four star hotel with three 3-course meals.

• There are an array of cleansing practices to clear a practitioner of negativity in the form of bhoots - again, your source says nothing about clearing techniques in relation to 'bhoots' and 'bhadas'.

• http://groups.yahoo.com/group/talk-about-sahaja-yoga/ - please read archived discussions about this, and also WP:EL, notably "undue weight on particular points of view" and "Any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research", and "Links to social networking sites (such as MySpace), discussion forums/groups (such as Yahoo! Groups)" - it would appear that your foru fails many of the criteria needed to be linked to as an EL.

Sfacets 21:28, 12 November 2007 (UTC)