Talk:Martyrdom in Palestinian society

Biased article

Do we really need an article like this? Isn't this "phenomenon" present in all societies with a Muslim majority? Dl.thinker (talk) 11:59, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

I agree that this phenomenon also exists in other societies, including other Islamist societies. However, this article focuses on Palestinian society where the phenomenon has been extensively studied and has a comprehensive academic literature. I think it's appropriate for Wikipedia to avoid generalizations. Eladkarmel (talk) 15:07, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

In your opinion, we should create an article about every society that glorifies martyrdom? This is illogical. Every society describes its fighters who die for a cause that has great meaning to them as martyrs. This article is inflammatory to the core. Dl.thinker (talk) 15:46, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

The posters are from the IDF and we have no idea of the context in which they may have been used. The UDF photo of the chassroom simply assumes that the posters are there to promote martyrdom - but if we saw these in a classroom elsewhere in the world we'd probably assume they were there as a 'discussion point'. How on earth does anyone know if and why these posters were in the classroom ? Pincrete (talk) 07:33, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

So I found this article from Vice that shows some similar-looking posters: https://www.vice.com/en/article/pazeqb/a-brief-history-of-palestinian-martyr-posters

The Vice article refers to them as martyr posters, but also states that not everyone agrees with these posters and also that they are becoming less relevant with social media. Because the posters are becoming less relevant, I am not sure if it is appropriate to feature the image so prominently at the top of the article. It may be more appropriate to put it in the history section. As a side note, I also don’t want to upset editors or readers who may potentially see the image as offensive or hurtful but that is more of a personal sentiment than an argument against image inclusion. The posters probably do have some historical significance. Wh15tL3D09N (talk) 17:39, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

Apart from issues about how prevalent or endorsed these posters are and the different meaning of 'martyr' in a Palestinian context (basically akin to 'victim of the conflict') - we are extrapolating a cultural tendency to glorify violent death, or using the posters to imply such a tendency - rather than the more obvious reason that those who die in any society at the hands of an enemy or resisting a perceived oppressor are lionised. Does the remembrance of this failed heroic stand prove something about the glorification of martyrdom in Texan/US mythology, or is the explanation much simpler?

Even if we accept that 'martyr posters' are widespread, it proves little other than that Palestinians see such 'martyrs' as heroes, for having been killed by, or fighting the oppressor, not because their society glorifies (our meaning of) martyrdom per se. I cannot read the Haaretz article(££$$) below but would expect to find a much better, and less partisan source, than this on which to base almost any analysis of Palestinian society - particularly in the current 'wartime' context. Pincrete (talk) 07:03, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia editors are not allowed to do to do their own original research, but they are allowed to summarize others’ original research. According to researchers, including a Palestinian anthropologist, suicide martyrdom culture in Palestine is a real phenomenon. I will acknowledge that I think there are some problems with some of the research articles coming from non-Palestinian authors; they fail to differentiate between shahid and Istishhad. Here’s an article that specifically uses the word “glorified”:https://www.researchgate.net/publication/329589338_Palestinian_Culture_and_the_Glorification_of_Suicide_Martyr_Istishhady Wh15tL3D09N (talk) 08:12, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

I don't doubt that sources exist such as that you link to, since I have seen some and read a few. I do doubt firstly, whether it is a majority view (which is the minimum for putting text in WP:VOICE) that this is an aspect of Palestinian culture. Secondly I doubt whether this is a result of the culture or simply a reaction to the present political situation.

Even the source you give says in its intro: "Palestinians consider the Istishhady as courageously sacrificing himself for the sake of everyone. They see him as a symbol of the struggle for freedom, which is what they are fighting for, and life maker for the new generations until the end of occupation, liberation of Palestine, and fulfillment of the wishes of Palestinians" That is not saying that glorifying of martyrs is an integral part of the culture - it is saying that glorifying of martyrs is a reaction to the present political reality. This isn't even hinted at in the article currently. As I've said elsewhere, one would see much the same lionising of the 'heroic dead' (and much the same public art) in N. Ireland during The Troubles or in S. Africa during the struggle against apartheid.

I also doubt whether one can justifiably extrapolate anything from the existence of a picture or poster, which is what the article attempts to do at present. Pincrete (talk) 12:40, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

I didn't realize this phenomenon was present in all Islamic societies. I think the phenomenon in Palestinian society is unique though, both in its relation to Israel and in its education system. For example, according to this article https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians/2023-12-12/ty-article-magazine/.premium/how-unrwa-became-the-second-most-important-organization-in-gaza/0000018c-5deb-d798-adac-fdefaf450000, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Morocco have decided to "improve their societies by means of educating toward moderation and peace" while Palestine has decided "to turn education into a strategic tool for violence and raise a young generation of shahids." Wh15tL3D09N (talk) 02:37, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

@Sakiv:, @Eladkarmel:, @Pincrete:, @Wh15tL3D09N: I have added some sources to the top of this page which seem to discuss this issue specifically within a Palestinian context. From a skim-read, they seem to be academic and discuss the issue in-depth with experts in the field. This may be a good basis to expand on this article, which I admit at the moment is very biased. Thoughts? --GnocchiFan (talk) 22:59, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

The Heroes and Martyrs of Palestine book looks interesting and comprehensive! Some of the other sources I am not able to access though (not in school anymore). TBH I am a little burnt out from Wikipedia. I haven’t been continuously on Wikipedia this long before. I need to take a couple months off. Wh15tL3D09N (talk) 00:14, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

If this article doesn’t get deleted, I will try skimming / reading the materials you provided. Wh15tL3D09N (talk) 22:52, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

No worries, I appreciate that Wikipedia takes it out on all of us - look after your own mental health and take a break if needs be!

Regarding source access, not sure if you'd be eligible for Wikipedia Library access? If so, I think you should be able to access most of the sources. There are also editors at the Resource Exchange request page who can help with finding specific sources. If neither of these works, I'm happy to summarise or help however I can for the sources I am able to access. GnocchiFan (talk) 22:56, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Wow, thanks for letting me know about Wikipedia Library! Will definitely check that out. Wh15tL3D09N (talk) 23:46, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

• Nableezy, are we creating yet another article full of sometimes biased and sometimes sensationalist news articles on individual events? I was looking at that Events and reactions section. Drmies (talk) 15:43, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

  don’t say we I voted to delete this. But yes. There could be an article on martyrdom as an idea in Palestinian society but this ain’t it. nableezy - 16:41, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 10 December 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved — removed "Glorification of" from the article title per WP:AVALANCHE. While it may be inappropriate for me to perform the move as an involved editor, discussion has been ongoing for two weeks with high participation & unanimous support for dropping "glorification of" from the title. It is also worth noting that this article being kept at AfD was conditioned on changing the title. As such, this should be an uncontroversial close, despite my involvement. Further discussion on changes to the title or scope may continue, but dropping "glorification of" is a start. (non-admin closure)  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 23:30, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

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Glorification of martyrdom in Palestinian society → Martyrdom in Palestinian society – The policy laid out at Wikipedia:Article titles requires consideration of "all five of the criteria for article titles" (recognizability, naturalness, precision, concision, and consistency). Martyrdom in Palestinian society is an improvement upon the current title, which is less recognizable, unnatural, imprecise, unnecessarily long and would be more neutral if shorter, and inconsistent with such page titles as Martyrdom in Judaism, Self-sacrifice in Jewish law, Istishhad, Shaheed, Christian martyr, and Martyr—all of which lack anything resembling the judgmental "glorification" prepended to the current title of this article. --Orgullomoore (talk) 18:17, 10 December 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 18:28, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

• Support as nom. --Orgullomoore (talk) 18:20, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
• Support per nom; worth noting that a lot of people supporting this article being kept in the ongoing deletion discussion also think that the "Glorification of..." bit should be removed from this article. – GnocchiFan (talk) 18:43, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
• Support as more neutral title. Bensci54 (talk) 17:55, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

  @Bensci54 aggree Irtapil (talk) 04:38, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

• Comment this is a bit academic while the deletion discussion is ongoing. Pincrete (talk) 12:42, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

• I disagree - as has been noted in the deletion discussion, if this page was at a more neutral title I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that the votes would be different. GnocchiFan (talk) 15:48, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

• @GnocchiFan what do you mean? Isn't the discussion about the title? Irtapil (talk) 04:39, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
• @GnocchiFan and Pincrete: I understand what you mean now. This article should exist and should exist with a more neutral perspective. I've not read much of the content yet, but it's a concept that I myself want to be able to learn more about from a neutral unbiased perspective. Irtapil (talk) 15:20, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

• "Martyrdom in Palestinian culture" - The word "glorification" is definitely too sensationalist and judgmental, but also "culture" is a more suitable word than "society". There's not a political or bias related reason for the second, it just fits better in general. Irtapil (talk) 14:46, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

• Or "Martyrdom in Palestinian language and culture" Language should probably be added, since concepts like translations of شهدي in English and foreign news would be important to include. I think that's not exactly the right word, my vocab is small and my grammar is non-existent. That root by itself means "witness" and is used as a prefix to some news reports, but I think that's also the word used in songs dedicated to people who died in war. And I only recently learned that the word and concept applies not only to deaths in combat, but also innocent victims of war. It is a thing I don't fully understand, but that I - and most other English speakers following the news - would definitely benefit from understanding. Irtapil (talk) 15:20, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

• Support rename per Orgullomoore. Marokwitz (talk) 20:30, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
• Support per nom. Owen× ☎ 17:07, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
• Support as a good first step. I still feel that this should be expanded to include the place martyrdom holds in the societies on all sides of the regional conflict, regardless of nationality, ethnicity or religion. It would make a much more balanced and less POV-driven article. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 20:45, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
• Why not Martyrdom in Palestine? We already have Martyrdom in Iran. Or if territory makes this proposal controversial, Martyrdom among Palestinians. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 22:18, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

  We have also Martyrdom in Chinese culture. It appears that there isn't a single standard, but to me, the title "Martyrdom in Palestinian Society" suggests a sociological angle. Marokwitz (talk) 22:29, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

They're the same to me personally, just that one is shorter. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 22:33, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

• Support proposed title on the grounds that the current title is not acceptable and this would be a step forward. But my preference is, as one editor at the AfD suggested, Martyrdom in the Arab-Israeli conflict. I won't oppose this one just because I prefer another one, as either option helps to alleviate the glaring POV issues. I feel the latter option would do more to help with this, of course.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 01:05, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
• Support makes sense. Eladkarmel (talk) 15:41, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
• Support per nom. I'll also respond to some other suggestions. I think "culture" or "culture and language" is less appropriate than "society" because they're too narrow in scope. I agree that Martyrdom in Palestine would also be an appropriate title. Vanilla Wizard's proposal is interesting and worth considering. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:55, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
• Support per Orgullomoore Dovidroth (talk) 09:24, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
• Support per nom. An article's title can alter a reader's perception of the subject before they even read the lead section. I also find "Martyrdom in Palestine" to be a fitting alternative. Building on the suggestion by Vanilla Wizard , an even more comprehensive and neutral approach could involve creating a Martyrdom in the Arab-Israeli conflict article, to provide a broader context for a more thorough exploration of the subject, considering the concept of martyrdom in the context of Palestine is intricately tied to the specific dynamics of the I/P conflict. Mooonswimmer 16:14, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Support Zanahary (talk) 22:39, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

another title option "Martyrdom in Palestinian language and culture"

Glorification of martyrdom in Palestinian society → Martyrdom in Palestinian language and culture – Irtapil (talk) 16:08, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

See my comments in the parent discussion above. I'm not sure if that needs a second thing to be considered as an option, or if it should be part of previous discussion? I apologize if I got it wrong. Irtapil (talk) 16:08, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Relisting comment: There appears to be a consensus for a move, but no consensus on what the new title should be. Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 18:28, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose until above discussion is finished. Let's take this one step at a time, please. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 20:45, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Textbooks

No reasons were provided for this revert. Leibniz-Institut seems like a reliable source. i24news and IMPACT-SE are Israeli sources, but we should not presume they are automatically unreliable. Alaexis_¿question? 16:33, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

i24 has repeatedly published things later proven to be bullshit without ever retracting it. It is a garbage source and should not be used. nableezy - 17:50, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Can you give an example? Alaexis_¿question? 18:56, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

40 babies murdered on October 7. Never been retracted. nableezy - 21:29, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

That was attributed to someone at ZAKA, no? If it was stated as fact it would be a different matter. Alaexis_¿question? 21:08, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

There has been no acknowledgment that it was bullshit by i24 as far as I know. See also here where they say 40 babies taken out on gurneys. Also see here for discussion on i24 recently. nableezy - 21:18, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Well, she says "this is what one of the commanders told me" around 2:08. It was October 10, nothing was clear at that time. Probably it would've been a good idea to add an update to these tweets, but I don't think it disqualifies them forever. Happy to take it to WP:RSN. Alaexis_¿question? 21:27, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Feel free. That isnt the only issue with i24, as the last archive at RSN should show you. nableezy - 21:28, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

I think the Leibniz-Institut quote can be kept. Their statement that that violent attacks are seen as a legitimate form of resistance is also found in Nasser Abufarha’s book who writes, “acts of violence are already legitimate and culturally appropriate forms of resistance in Palestine.”

The statement by i24 “The book teaches that those who do not sacrifice themselves are weak. It also includes an exercise in which students are asked to write an essay on terrorist attacks carried out by Palestinians” is exceptional and would need better sourcing. Also we don’t know how pervasive this type of teaching; we don’t have a balanced context to understand if this was one radical teacher or an entire school system. But I definitely think Leibniz-Institut should be kept in the article. Wh15tL3D09N (talk) 22:13, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

The institute is a self-published, primary source for its own surveys,so this currently has no weight, and the material isn't even presented in anything resembling a proper write-up, but in a Q&A format - and not even Q&As from reliable sources are really acceptable. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:40, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Yes, the EU-commissioned report that Alaexis restored seems like a reliable source. From my understanding the EU commissioned their own third party study. I thought the objection was to IMPACT-SE not Leibnez-Institut.

If the Q&A format is objectionable, here is another source: https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cdp-2021-0105/

And here: https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CDP-2021-0105/CDP-2021-0105.pdf

And here: https://www.gei.de/en/departments/knowledge-in-transition/analysis-of-palestinian-textbooks-paltex.html

The sources I provided are more balanced though. From the first link, they found that Arabic language textbooks “contain emotionally laden depictions of Israeli violence that tend to dehumanise the Israeli adversary, occasionally accusing the latter of malice and deceitful behaviour” but other subjects books were more objective.

There is also a 2017 quote from the PA’s Minister for Education, “Sabri Saidam, defended the curriculum, saying that contentious parts of the PA curriculum, including maps that don’t include Israel, and praise of so-called martyrs—many of whom are considered terrorists by Israel—derive from “the ripple effects” of the conflict.”

The sources also mention that the textbooks do include teachings on human rights.

But I feel the textbook controversy, specifically the antisemitism and hate speech part if we go by the q&a source, is off topic for this article on martyrdom. Textbook controversy should into the wiki article for Palestinian textbooks. Plus there is still ongoing discussion about the scope of this article. Some people in the discussions wanted the scope widened to martyrdom culture in Palestine in general rather than focusing on violent martyrdom effects on Israel.

I feel that violent martyrdom effects on Israel is important, but it also can’t be ignored that the Palestinian society does seem to be a desperate one and one that has likewise been victimized (just as the suicide attacks victimize Israelis) given it’s history in war and the Deir Yassin Massacre carried out by Israeli terrorists (which is chillingly similar to the Oct. 7 2023 attack) and the Israeli occupation (home demolitions, random killing of civilians, etc), and it being manipulated by Hamas into thinking suicidal martyrdom is religious. Wh15tL3D09N (talk) 23:44, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

You're right that we shouldn't stray from the topic here and only mention what is directly relevant to the article topic. I don't think that Deir Yassin is relevant to the discussion, it wasn't the first or last massacre, unfortunately (e.g., the 1929 Hebron massacre 20 years before that). Alaexis_¿question? 21:20, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

I only recently learned about the Deir Yassin massacre when I was skimming the Heroes and Martyrs of Palestine book by Laleh Khalili. Mentioned it in the discussion to make a point about victimization. I do tend to get off topic in article discussions. Thanks for trying to keep me on track. Wh15tL3D09N (talk) 21:30, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

User:Wh15tL3D09N, I'm not so good at math, maybe, but I'm sure you have made more than one revert in this article in the last 24 hours. Drmies (talk) 21:08, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Didn’t realize, have self reverted, thanks for the heads up! Wh15tL3D09N (talk) 22:07, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

"Glorification of martyrdom in Palestinian society" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Glorification of martyrdom in Palestinian society has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 December 23 § Glorification of martyrdom in Palestinian society until a consensus is reached.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 23:23, 23 December 2023 (UTC)