Talk:Reformation

Sectioning

The article is dedicated to the Reformation not to Reformation in indivdual countries or territories. I doubt that the article should present the details of the Reformation movement in each country. Of course, relevant events of the history of the Reformation of individual countries could be presented but only within the wider framework. Consequently, much of the present subsections are unnecessary. Borsoka (talk) 09:42, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

As someone who has not edited this article very much but is familiar with the history of the Reformation, I agree. I think the current article layout can be improved. First thing I noticed is that we have 2 main sections "History" and "Conclusion/legacy". Since this article is about a historical movement or event, having a history section is redundant. If I were simplifying this layout I might suggest the following:

1. An origins, background, context section (whatever is most appropriate)
   1. A section describing briefly late medieval Catholicism
   2. Renaissance and how that contributed to later Protestantism
   3. Proto-Protestants
2. Early Reformation (1517-1524)
   1. Martin Luther
      1. Luther's theology
   2. Reformation at Wittenberg
      1. Karlstadt's radicalism
      2. Zwickau prophets
   3. Reformation at Zurich
      1. Zwingli

This is of course just a start and we would have to include further events, but there is no reason for including every country in Europe - especially if they have their own articles. Ltwin (talk) 18:31, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

@Borsoka Ltwin (talk) 18:36, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I was thinking a very similar structure. The main difference that I do not like orphan sub-sections. :) Borsoka (talk) 01:13, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

@Borsoka I agree. This article should really focus on the main historical narrative of the Reformation and leave the detail to other articles like English Reformation, Swiss Reformation, and the Counter Reformation. Ltwin (talk) 02:29, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes, the article is too big. Can I suggest a different structure?

As a background, may I suggest that one reason that an unwieldy article has been generated is a failure to adequately distinguish two different usages of "Reformation":

• the first concerns the religious movements which took lasting hold in Germanic (language) countries (Germany, Scandinavia, Netherlands, Britain, etc) and their colonies
• the second concerns the Geo-political period of instability and wars in Western Europe (particularly Germany) that came in the wake of the religious movement, and which ended with the Treaty of Westphalia: the enormous amount of the current article that is taken up with wars and battles (rather than e.g. theology and personalities) is a sign of this usage. (e.g. " Georg Truchsess von Waldburg (d. 1531), the commander of the troops of the Swabian League, achieved the dissolution of the Swabian peasant armies either by force or through negotiations." ... really??)

I think the article should be about primarily about the first usage, not the second. (If it seems strange to think of two uses of "Reformation", consider how it makes no sense to say that the Protestant Reformation as a religious movement stopped with the Treaty of Westphalia! Of course, some events straddle both usages: the Pilgrimage_of_Grace for example.)

So...I think that a better way to trim down the Reformation page would be

1. Make it a hub article, where each section on has a minimal paragraph; perhaps Luther can be allowed two paragraphs, but no details. Clarify that the main scope of the article is the religious history of the 1500s and 1600s.
2. to remove much of the discussion on geo-politics, war and battles to an article that accompanies European_wars_of_religion; e.g. the section Consolidation and Confessionalization. I am aware of the danger of sweeping the wars under the carpet in order to concentrate on e.g. theological or personality aspects of the Reformations: The main article just needs to say "The wars and famines that followed the Reformation killed up to 17 million Europeans" and provide a link.
3. to remove the Background section, which is just ludicrous in how off-topic it is (no matter how correct), perhaps to Christianity_in_the_16th_century;?
4. Restructure the remaining article to build NPOV into the structure of the article (and perhaps avoid unnecessary squabbles) by providing explicit top-level sections for the different movements. I suggest:

• Protestant Reformation: Lutheran, Calvinist, Zwinglian, Bohemians, Anglicans, Gallicans, Anabaptist
  • Protestant Pre-cursors: Waldheimensians, Huss/Hussites, Wycliff/Lollards
  • Protestant Aftermath and Legacy
• Catholic Counter-Reformation: Council of Trent, Jesuits,
  • Catholic Pre-cursors: Brethren of Common Lifedevotio moderna, Council of Basel/Florence, Savonarola, Catherine of Genoa/Oratory of Divine Love, Christian Humanists (Jean Gerson, Erasmus, etc)
  • Catholic Aftermath and Legacy
• Breakdown by Country
• Wars - link to other page

Rick Jelliffe (talk) 13:54, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

I agree with the above, and just came here to suggest that breakdowns by country be according to the countries that existed at the time; i.e., "United Kingdom" should not be a section, since that is a political formation that did not exist at the time of the Protestant Reformation. Instead, it might make more sense to combine all the countries listed under "United Kingdom" (England, Wales, Scotland) and Ireland under a section titled "Britain and Ireland" – making that section title geographic rather than anachronistically political. Everything currently within "New Waves" is about England and Ireland anyway, so that could all be integrated into a "Britain and Ireland" section.

skoosh (háblame) 18:26, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Baptisms and birth

it about how other religions give birth 102.132.142.88 (talk) 15:25, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Background: Church Life

Apologies for the length! At the risk of starting some flame war, can I take issue with the sentence "Based on Christ's parable on the Last Judgement, the Catholic Church taught that the performance of good works, such as feeding the hungry and visiting the sick, was a precondition of salvation." I think this is a misrepresentation.

A good guide for what the Church taught at that time is Aquinas, yes? His teaching on what it takes for the "ungodly" to be "justified" (i.e. an initial conversion or repentence after backsliding) has no mention of any kind of acts or works or charity: The entire justification of the ungodly consists as to its origin in the infusion of grace. For it is by grace that free-will is moved and sin is remitted.(Summa Theo, Part II.I, Question 113. The effects of grace, Art7.) (IIUC, this is what Trent called "Actual Grace" or "prevenient grace", associated with a moment or a change) God offers this "first grace", then you make a freewill move towards God, then a move away from sin, then the remission of sin, is Aquinas' logical order.

However, when it comes to justified and unbackslidden Christians (i.e. baptized and converted in whatever order, and sticking to the path), which Aquinas treats as the default case, he talks about "sanctifying grace"[1] which is a state (of living increasingly in grace) rather than a moment.

Where good works also come in relate to happiness: "happiness is the reward for works of virtue" done with charity a.k.a. "merits", as judged by God's loving nature, and caused by the Holy Spirit [2]. Merits have no part in first grace[3] but they amplify the reception of sanctifying grace subsequently by a feedback mechanism: I think the idea is that the more Christians open themselves up to God by charity, the more he fills them.

So the article could say that good works are a post-condition of justification, but for Aquinas they are not a pre-condition for justification or sanctification: grace comes first, based on the merits of Christ not us. So I don't think it is right that medieval Catholic doctrine was that works were "a pre-condition for salvation": I mean, if it were, wouldn't that rule out death-bed converts?

Can that sentence be adjusted or removed, as it seems to perpetuate a myth (or a garbled truth), please?

B.t.w., Luther's argument (against Erasmus' On Free Will) was not that Catholics required good works as a pre-condition for salvation, but that people who gave even the smallest role to free will were still slaves to the Law and not in grace.Rick Jelliffe (talk) 15:25, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your remark. Although the sentence does not contradict the cited source (Hamilton), I rephrased it ([4]). Hamilton writes: "The medieval church took vera seriously Christ's discourse on the Last Judgement in which he explained that men's salvation or damnation would depend on the works which they had performed in this life...". Borsoka (talk) 01:52, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. I think your re-wording is slightly better, but it still not acceptable because

1) it still goes beyond what the source says, and

2) the source says something that is controverted by other sources, and

3) readers could easily go away with an incorrect interpretation, and

4) it is not accurate.

A better wording would be "In accordance with Christ's parable on the Last Judgement, the Catholic Church taught that the faithful who (after their justification by grace and faith only) died in a state of sanctifying grace (maintained inter alia by good works out of faith and charity, such as feeding the hungry and visiting the sick) inherit their salvation and will get into heaven.[https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/bible-says-faith-and-works-needed-for-salvation-1015] In a sense, their lives being then good, they now merit getting to Heaven (but they have not earned the merit: their merit is a voluntary participation in Christ's merit); for some medieval people, gaining merit became a religious focus."

That probably is too much, though? It still is not the whole picture, as every different period and culture (and different theologians) had different emphases and ways to express it,https://regensburgforum.com/2017/02/06/scholastic-developments-on-merit-a-downward-path-into-pelagianism/ and I am not writing as a specialist in this area. (And, of course, what the Church teaches and what medieval kids learnt from their Godparents are different things...) Rick Jelliffe (talk) 14:12, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Y OK I adjusted the text with what I think is a better compromise:

"Entry into heaven required dying in a State of Grace; apart from recent and deathbed converts, the Catholic Church taught that the faithful who performed good works in charity, such as feeding the hungry and visiting the sick, would go to Heaven, in accordance with Christ's parable on the Last Judgement." Rick Jelliffe (talk) 04:25, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

My concern is that the present short text is fully in line with the cited source, while parts of the above version are not verified. I am not sure either that we should present all elements of the Catholic theology of salvation in an article about the Reformation. Borsoka (talk) 06:19, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Well, we certainly should not misrepresent what medieval Catholic theology was, either. I will find some RS references, or put it into a note. (I think my description it is better, if made acceptable, because for it also hints at the important medieval issue of "dying well" which pre-occupied them.) Rick 220.240.66.80 (talk) 00:17, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

I have added some more citations. Please let me know if they are not adequate, so I can find some better ones. (On the topic of dealing with Catholic theology, I think there is some use in understanding something by understanding what it differs from; I suppose that is the intent of the Background section?) Rick Jelliffe (talk) 01:49, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

I have also updated the lede's "requires good works" to "could involve good works" for the same reasons as above. "Requires good works" is a weaselly phrase that people can take (and have taken) as meaning that Catholic teaching is that grace and faith are not necessary (and logically prior to anything else), just doing nice things. Rick Jelliffe (talk) 01:58, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

I think the phrase did not suggest that grace and faith were not necessary as it did not contain a statement about them. My concern is that we cannot present medieval Catholic theology based on medieval Catholic theologians' works as per WP:Primary. Borsoka (talk) 02:14, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Latin

The text has reverted to "Latin was the language of public worship in most dioceses of Catholic Europe[note 6] although few laymen understood it." I think this is misleading and a non-sequitur: most medieval people had a smattering of Latin, as they encountered it in their daily lives (through the liturgy, prayer books, law, administration, manuals, signs, labels, accounts, schooling, doctors, etc.) and most everyone knew the Latin of the main public prayers of the mass.

Being able to speak and read a language fluently (which few could, or still can, for Latin) is different from being able to understand things you have learned in it: few people speak French but many people understand the words to the first lines of Frère_Jacques; few lawyers understand Latin sentences but they all know res ipsa loquitur and mens rea etc.; if you hear young educated Indians speak, they often pepper their native language with learnt English sentences or sayings, this being elegant or smart: they certainly "understand" those English fragments. When we watch a foreign movie with subtitles, just because we don't understand the language does not mean we do not understand the movie: we have another source of comprehension than our ears.

One of the responsibilities of the godparent was to teach the public prayers of the liturgy: when properly catechized people said the pater noster or the creed, they understood it. Everyone was supposed to understand the public prayers of the liturgy they would have to say. (Sure, the details of what the priest said was not important (or secret), but the readings were supposed to be explained in the vernacular in the homily, and many boys went to choir school to learn to sound out and hopefully understand the Psalms.)

Some other info:

• On late medieval and renaissance Latin: Tunberg, T. (2020). Spoken Latin in the Late andMiddle Ages and Renaissance Revisited. Journal of Classics Teaching, 21(42), 66-71. doi:10.1017/S2058631020000446Tunberg, T. (2020). Spoken Latin in the Late Middle Ages and Renaissance Revisited. Journal of Classics Teaching, 21(42), 66-71. doi:10.1017/S2058631020000446
• On medieval Latin as a living language: https://www.academia.edu/4109901/Medieval_Latin_Chapter_17_Dinkova_Bruun
• For quasi-literacy: "in England 'probably more than half the population could read, though not necessarily also write, by 1500" [5]

Based on your summary, I understand that few people understood Latin. I am sure that you can understand some Hungarian words (like czardas and goulash) but I doubt that you would be able to understand a whole Hungarian text. The fact that an explanation in the vernacular was needed shows that they did not understand the Latin liturgy. The article itself states that church visitations in Saxony proved that many believers could not cite the fundamental texts of Christian faith in the 1520s. Remember that the word "hocus-pocus" derrives from the Latin words of the Eucharist: "Hoc est corpus meum". Borsoka (talk) 02:23, 13 August 2023 (UTC)