Talk:Murder of Meredith Kercher: Difference between revisions

Mr. Kercher writing a book

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/father-of-meredith-kercher-to-release-book-about-loss-of-his-daughter-quest-for-justice/2012/04/10/gIQAjziF8S_story.html

This should probably find it's way into the article.LedRush (talk) 15:35, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Guede in basement

Kaosium, I don't think the account of the unsavoury conversation the Italians in the basement had with Guede establishes anything about Knox. Some may think those Italians letting a character like that into the house, and then talking to him about the girl like that, suggests something about the judgement of the basement residents. But suit yourself. Overagainst (talk) 17:03, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Fair enough and a good point: there are other questions those boys might have been asked which would have been quite germane to the issue. However in fairness to all, locker-room talk about a convicted (in finality) rapist-murderer's interest in a girl found to be uninvolved by the Italian Court System is not only rather unsavory it's also unfair to both the boys downstairs and the girl: none of them could know what would occur in the future. Just because it's in Follain's book doesn't mean it needs to be on the wiki page when it (at least this particular episode) doesn't really have anything to do with the Murder of Meredith Kercher. Kaosium (talk) 23:14, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

We don't know what Guede said, but the Italian mens' assertion that he expressed interest in Knox was important to the prosecution case and it is relevant Guede was asking about her in the second conversation while being given quite a bit of encouragement from the Italians. It is relevant that one of the Italians bet Guede that AK would not object to his advances. They let him in the house, introduced him to Knox and Kercher, and later told him that he would be successful with Knox. I think it's fair to mention the context of the Italians' evidence: Guedes supposed attraction to AK was expressed during conversations in which the Italians encouraged his interest. They allowed him into the basement for the second time not long before he broke in to the upstairs apartment and murdered one of the girls the Italian men in the basement had allowed him to meet. Most people who knew Guede stayed away from him. The Italians knew Guede. There is stuff in Follain about the Italians in the basement that is not in the article; G, who was MK's boyfriend, used to ignore her in the street. They didn't seem too attentive or protective of the beautiful foreign girls who liked and trusted them. Well, they'll have no need to worry about our girls going to their city any more.Overagainst (talk) 21:19, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

To me, this is all WP:OR. And your wording is really unfortunate: "Italians" for "the basement guys", "our girls" for "foreign students". By the way, there are lots of American students in Perugia... --Grifomaniacs (talk) 06:48, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Outside Rome Perugia's University for Foreigners is one of only two places in Italy to offer suitable courses for Italian so it is hardly surprising that Perugia still has US students. I don't know why you bothered removing mention of Ms Knox, who chose to go to Perugia and by all accounts liked the place from the Perugia's University for Foreigners article on the grounds that she didn't 'graduate' (it was a one year course which, I believe she continued). It would have been her US Uni she would have graduated from, surely. Italians apparently think she speaks their language rather well.

Nothing I said was personal research. Perhaps there is an implication that the young Italian men who lived in the basement ought to have thought twice about introducing a character like Guede to a couple of naive foreign girls. In the early US documentary on the case a young black American, who worked in a Perugia nightclub, said that everybody knew Guede, and they stayed away from him. Guedes own best friend said Guede was known for bothering girls, telling lies, and poor personal hygene, and that many people disliked him. Guede did have a bad reputation. While it is true that the Italians did not know all of this, they were well acquainted enough to know the sort of person he was. They'd met Guede at the basketball court in Piazza Grimana, which was frequented by drug dealers as well as students, (Follain p.26) as I added to the article. You should know this as it was you who removed that little piece of information from the article. (M)any English girls in Perugia now? Meredith Kercher was English, she was the one who got murdered remember. Incidentally Follain says Meredith Kercher was frightened by the amount of drug use in Perugia, eg she found a used syringe outside Via della Pergola 7 (someone removed that detail from article too) and saw a group of men smoking heroin in a Perugia street. Anyway, Gude was allowed in to the house a second time and things were said that show the basement residents had some opinions of AK. When Guede broke in and murdered MK shortly after, the basement residents account of that second conversation was very important evidence against AK. Hence what the Italian men said in the the conversation with Guede is important to give the full context. Overagainst (talk) 14:56, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Amanda Knox is technichally not an Alumni of the University for Foreigners in Perugia. Unfortunately, she didnt have the possibility to finish her course and get the achievement (whatever it is), thus she doesnt belong there. I have to say that British students in Perugia have never been too much, there are lots of students coming from Northern Europe (German and Scandinavian in particular), Southern Europe (Spain and Greece), from the US, from Asia and from Africa. The Mayor of Perugia has announced that the University of Perugia will establish a special programme of study dedicated to the memory of Meredith Kercher (La Nazione http://www.lanazione.it/cronaca/2011/11/01/611747-giovani_dimenticano_meredith.shtml ). Whenever it will be, in this case a mention will be appropriate. I still think that we have not to weight too much social issues in Perugia based on monographic books on this case, they could be overemphasized due to the nature of this heinous crime. In fact Eurostat reports demonstrate that Perugia is not exceptionally "risky".--Grifomaniacs (talk) 17:18, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm not the one who is saying that the victim's experience (finding used syringe in grounds, unknowingly being introduced to a psychopath, seeing prowlers in garden, being inveigled into caring for cannabis plants, and finally being murdered) is typical of Perugia. You were the one who tried to remove from the article that Via della Pergola 7 was in a bad area of Perugia, not I.Overagainst (talk) 17:37, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Via della Pergola 7 was not in a bad area of Perugia, on the ground of objective parameters such as house prices before the murder. We cannot blame for the murder anyone of the Italian guys in the basement: they werent pushers, just students that used to smoke Cannabis like Amanda Knox... And we cannot say that Guede was a psycopath, that could be an easy justification for that horrifying crime he committed with other undetermined criminals. --Grifomaniacs (talk) 18:19, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

Via della Pergola 7 was not in a bad area of Perugia? Perhaps I ought to alter the article and make mention of MK seeing men openly smoking heroin in Via Del Lupo to show that the whole of Perugia was just as well policed as the area of the cottage. An athleticaly built psychopathic man armed with an knife does not need assistance to murder anyone, certainly not a girl he outweighs by over 50lbs.. Overagainst (talk) 21:23, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

Prejudicial Non Sequiturs

Regarding the recent edits, lets talk about this then: if reports of the judge mocking the prosecution contentions are not up to wiki standards, how is it that the contentions themselves that were worthy of judicial disdain are? What is the point of including non sequiturs regarding exercises or underwear purchases if the outcome of that presentation in court is considered too outrageous for wiki? How could that be reconciled with a neutral point of view? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaosium (talk • contribs) 22:51, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

It's not the subject. It's mainly the way you worded it, 'ridiculed' was used in a news report. It's journalistic commentary. Better worded it would read something like "The appeal judges said the clothing she bought was not lingerie, as the prosecution had alleged, but merely underwear of a type commonly worn by young women". It should be in the section on the appeal judges, not where you put it. Overagainst (talk) 20:42, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Edit-warring

This edit needs to be discussed and not forced into the article by way of edit warring.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 19:52, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

MK scholarshp fund

This is fine for the article but it doesn't really rate a mention in the lede IMO.Overagainst (talk) 12:46, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Agree. This may be better placed under the Reaction section.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 13:59, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

That's not a reaction, that's an aftermath. --Grifomaniacs (talk) 19:30, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Someone removed the text asking for discussion. So, it's correct to say that if something is cited into the lead abstract, it has to be present at least also into a section and not vice versa, I admit it but the problem was that actually it does not exist a section that fit that contribution. I dont think that a scholarship fund after the name of Meredith Kercher is a reaction. That is something that could make her noteworthy of a dedicated page as for WP:BLP1E, on the aftermath of the murder that shocked Italy and the world in 2007. However I dont think we need a Meredith Kercher stand-alone page. I think we should expand the biographic section about her on the page, and there adding mention of the scholarship fund. Also, it has to be discussed what is noteworthy to be on the abstract section. Actually, I may see room for improvements as follows:

• Bold Patrick Lumumba redirect notice at the top of the page. His name has been cleared off, he's been no longer a suspect for years and he's not notewhorty of a own page, so why his name has to be so evident at the top of the page? I propose to delete the redirect and its page.
• Media coverage section. It is correct to blame Italian and English "salacious" tabloid reporting on this case, but it should be added to complete the information that Amanda Knox family hired a PR firm to contrast this perceived misinformation that could have influenced the court case.
• Aftermath. What happened after? That is something that is of public interest and will contribute to represent this article not only as a simple news repository but as historical. That's why I would add on the lead about the Meredith Kercher scholarship fund as well as other events that could occur to parts involved in this case in the future.

Please partecipate on this discussion, the more the better. Thank you. --Grifomaniacs (talk) 18:52, 26 October 2012 (UTC)