Talk:Slavic speakers of Greek Macedonia: Difference between revisions

First Comments

Hmmm let me see - you use an irredentist qualifier for ethnic Macedonians who allegedly live in Greece. Or whose parents lived in Greece. First of all such an article should not exist. It is some form of POV fork of Ethnic Macedonians in Greece. Second it states some ridiculous numbers. Third it completely fails to represent the other POV - I've started calling it the real world POV. There's also a problem with copyright infringement - some passages look like taken as whole from somewhere. This impression is strengthened by the fact that ABECEDAR is always spelled with capital letters - looks like it was copied from another place. Now the next matter: No, you cannot call ethnic MAcedonians simply Macedonians in an article about Greece. There are other Macedonians in Greece as you know more than well. Summing everything up the article is upi for deletion. Given the fact that canvassing would lead the vote to only one possible solution (we already saw that on another place) administrators will have to take things in their own hands. --Laveol ^T 15:11, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Kosovski this is going to AFD before you can say Aegean ...--   Avg    17:07, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually one i wasnt finished creating the article yet. And two i will take your concerns into consideration. How is it irredentist? What are the ethnic macedonians who come from greece called?? - Aegean Macedonians. What should we say to the people who were born in Greece and identify as ethnic macedonians?? All population numbers are estimates. Please give constructive critism and the article will benefit. By copyright, i have copied a few sentences from another wikipedia page because they were saying the sae thing, is that not allowed?? Why shouldnt an article exist are you trying to tell me there has NEVER been ethnic macedonians in Greece, and they didnt have children? What about SNOF and NOF who were these people? What about the rainbow political party are they greeks? Stop removing every article and actually contribute to wikipedia. Oh, and please let me finish the article.P m kocovski (talk) 21:57, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

I think that this article shoud be renamed in Ethnic Macedonians in Greece. Makedonij (talk) 10:56, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Article up for deletion

Please tell me the viable reasons for deleting the page?P m kocovski (talk) 22:10, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

You mean apart from the fact that it was created as a POV fork? You're not naive, you know very well why you started this article.--   Avg    22:15, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

I didn't start it as a POV fork. I started it to inform readers of the Aegean Macedonians, and give some information about them.

Title- Aegean Macedonians

Please tell me if there is another title used by the ethnic macedonians in/from greece which is different to Aegean Macedonians?? if there is the page can be moved.

I guess "Ethnic Macedonians in Greece" isn't a possibility. Funny how you used the 200,000 estimate despite the other talk page. You folks all seem to lack reading comprehension. 3rdAlcove (talk) 22:17, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually it is a common estimate and it should be included it isnt definate. And the title would be appropriate because As you said it isnt really a possibility.P m kocovski (talk) 06:05, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I give up. 3rdAlcove (talk) 09:36, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

moved talk from AFD.

• What "Aegean Macedonians" means in the first place? It means the Macedonians who come from "Aegean Macedonia" (an already controversial term). Well it happens that there are 2.5 million people in "Aegean Macedonia" who are Greeks. They should also be "Aegean Macedonians", but they're not even mentioned to your article. Anyway, forgetting that, you've started an article detailing the Slavic migration to Macedonia and the Slavic culture in Macedonia, thereby automatically creating the connection that all Slavophones = Ethnic Macedonians. And on top of that you put in the mix dubious figures, controversial claims, irredentist beliefs. So to sum it up: POV fork.--   Avg    22:22, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

• No, it is a regional identifier used by ethnic macedonians to distinguish themselves from other ethnic macedonians. Greeks use the term Greek Macedonian, ethnic macedonians use the term Aegean Macedonian. AND no i am not implying that all the slavophone greeks identify as macedonians, the fact that they share a similar culture and heritage to the ethnic macedonians is UNAVOIDABLE. That is no reason delete an article because they have similarities to another group of people! Dubious figures, go and have a look at the many greek pages and then tell me about dubious figures. Oh, and if i was being irredentist there would be 1,000,000 ethnic macedonians in greece, that is irredentist.P m kocovski (talk) 22:36, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

• Since you mentioned it, Greeks use the term "Macedonian" and not "Greek Macedonian". This is how they identify themselves. Please have a look at Macedonia (terminology) if you have doubts about it. Now the primary reason to delete this article is that it was created to bypass the established NPOV in Ethnic Macedonians and Slavophone Greeks articles, since it uses data that was debunked/unacceptable in the relevant articles, plus it uses offending and controversial terminology.--   Avg    22:48, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

yes, they only use macedonians as a regional identifier, while their ethnicity is greek. Aegean macedonian means Aegean Macedonia- Regional Identity and Macedonian- Ethnic group. They should also be "Aegean Macedonians", What is this???? They should be Aegean Macedonians??? Then what is their ethnicity?. How ridiculous. And no this article was not designed to bypass the NPOV on Ethnic macedonians and Slavophone greeks. It has nothing to do with slav speakers who identify as greeks, but Ethnic macedonians from Greece who identify as ethnic macedonians. Offending terminology?? Please expain.P m kocovski (talk) 07:43, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

WTF?

It states 10,000 to 200,000 Slavomakedonians in Greece!!!!!!!!!!! Their party in elections hardly gets more than 7,000. Where are the other 193,000 "oppressed"?People who consider themselves affiliated to the citizens of FYROM aren't more than 10 -15,000.And probably even that, is an exaggeration.Some villages outside Florina.That's all.--Ioannes Tzimiskes (talk) 10:45, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Well according to Greek Diaspora there are 3,000,000 greeks in America, 700,000 in Australia, 370,000 in Germany, Canada in 450,000, 400,000 in Albania, 120,000 in South Africa and on Greeks there are 400,000 greeks in Biritan even when the source say only 300,000!. These estimates are all permitted on Wikipedia. Oh, and also since when is an Ethnic Macedonian forced to vote for the Rainbow Party? Why vote for a party which might not have any influence???P m kocovski (talk) 11:17, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

First of all if you check the diaspora discussion page i oppose the inflated numbers of Greek diaspora.Anyway Britain and Australia count only the Greek-born as Greeks and not the rest but that's not my point.My point is that 99% of the Slavophone community in Greece feels strongly Greek and they felt so even in the turmoil year's of 1904 - 1914 for the region.You can't just guess a number and put 200,000.I lived all my life in Macedonia and if there was such a great number i would have known. As for the Rainbow party,well if a minority of this size (200,000 even 1 million claimed by your government) is allegedly so harshly oppressed the least we should expect would be them to support the party for their rights. Wiki is an encyclopedia and numbers straight out of irredentist leaflets can't be allowed here. --Ioannes Tzimiskes (talk) 11:03, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually Australia counts ancestry, but i agree with you as well. Where there are official census figures they should be used. But in Greece there are none so only non biased estimate's should be used (they have been provided). Now, the figure of 1,000,000 is ridiculously high, i will agree to that. 200,000 is a more sober estimate. I think you will agree that somewhere between 10,000 and 200,000 is the true number of Ethnic macedonians. I do not think that the 200,000 figure should just be removed when it is sourced (+ many non macedonian sources put the figure at c.200,000) when some people percieve it to be too high. Rather having it as an estimate would be a NPOV as the official figures are unknown. But once again 1,000,000 is a ridiculous estimate. P m kocovski (talk) 11:59, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I have never ever in my life met any Greek citizen claiming to be Slavomacedonian.I made quite a few trips in the region and i live in Thessaloniki which gathers people from all Macedonia so isn't quite strange?I think the minority is found only in Florina region.I don't say it trying to downplay the number,and if it was the opposite i would also have stated but they are not even close to 40-50,000.200,000 seems like an extra-terrestrial number to me also.Anyway if it is sourced yes.But the source must be a serious third party one and even in that case it's simply a guess.Noone knows better than the Greek state itself.--Ioannes Tzimiskes (talk) 18:36, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

yes, but what is a good source? Can you see what i am trying to say? Also how can greek government be 100% trusted when they claim 3,000,000 greeks in america and 700,000 in australia (The real numbers are just under half of those). And if you noticed i did not use any sources from the macedonian government nor ethnic macedonian activists. 3rd Party sources have been used. P m kocovski (talk) 08:03, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

The 3,000,000 isn't a greek government claim.It's USA data.Anyway i saw that Britannica claims 1,8% of the population to be Slavomacedonians.I can't see where this number is based,and i disagree with that but nevertheless is accepted as a source.--Ioannes Tzimiskes (talk) 11:59, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

My mistake the Greek government only claims 2,500,000 . Ioannes, many statistics have the number of ethnic macedonians in greece at c. 200,000 this is usually the benchmark and they hardly put more. It is not only britannica but other sources to. P m kocovski (talk) 21:17, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Points of Discussion

This is the section where major points of the Article should be discussed. Please put your objections here so that they can be adressed.P m kocovski (talk) 11:19, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Point 1-

Article name Aegean Macedonians or Ethnic Macedonians in Greece. I believe some users have expressed concern that Aegean Macedonians may be ambiguous. That is a legitimate point and should be discussed. NB: crap about being offended or about irredentism is not worth taking note of. BalkanFever 11:34, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I think that this article shoud be renamed in Ethnic Macedonians in Greece,afterall it is talking about Ethnic Macedonians,or minority of Ethnic Macedonians in Greece.Makedonij (talk) 14:10, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

And why to delete it???I'm against that(deleteing)Makedonij (talk) 14:10, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I would like to make two points. First - This article should not be deleted. First it has references, and second it is analogical to the article Pontic Greeks. Second - about the naming it can be Ethnic Macedonians of Greece, because it shows that is it not only about those that still live in Greek Macedonia, but also in Republic of Macedonia, Canada and so on. Regards. --Revizionist (talk) 07:13, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

No moving until the afd is closed, though. BalkanFever 11:02, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Revizionist, if you don't think the article should be deleted, make your opinion known at the discussion: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Aegean Macedonians

I would repeat once again that I am against deleting an article that is backed with so many references. I must add that I am OK with both the name Aegean Macedonians and ethnic Macedonians of Greece as names of this article. maybe the second would be better, for it would be a conglomerate article about those people with ethnic Macedonian conscience that live in Greece, and those that are refugees in R. Macedonia, Canada, Australia and so on. Regards. --Revizionist (talk) 13:13, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Point 2-

My second point would be that if the Aegean Macedonians article is deleted, than we you may as well delete the Pontic Greeks article, for the articles are analogical. --Revizionist (talk) 13:14, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you,and i think both of them shoud stay!!NO DELETEING.Makedonij (talk) 14:47, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Kostas Novakis

Are there any RS about his self-identification? There seems to be no agreement on that. 3rdAlcove (talk) 13:05, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

This is an excerpt from a Dnevnik article. He calls his wife "Grecian". This is about a gathering of Aegean Macedonians in Bitola, where Novakis was a guest. BalkanFever 13:13, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I wonder if he really did call his wife "Grecian" in English or if it was simply translated that way. ;) "Aegean Macedonians" living in the Republic or in Macedonia, though? 3rdAlcove (talk) 13:20, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Aegean Macedonians is analogical to Pontian Greeks and to Cham Albanians. The name Aegean Macedonians refers to both the people that identify themselves as ethnic Macedonians and live in Greece, and those that live as refugees in R.Macedonia and in the diaspora. --Revizionist (talk) 13:58, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Interesting. What do you call an ethnic Macedonian not living in Macedonia (say, he lives in Epirus)? Btw, say a family moves from Macedonia to the Republic. After how many generations do you stop calling them "Aegean Macedonians" (until they forget, perhaps)? Thanks! Edit: Also, say, a family from the Republic moves to Macedonia, are they included under "Aegean Macedonians"?

Ah, and my question to BF was about whether they live in Macedonia or in the Republic now. 3rdAlcove (talk)

The same as you call a Pontic Greek that refuged from Trapezund to Kilkis. Or A Pontic Greek family that emigrated from Thessaloniki to Larisa. Or a Cham Albanian that emigrated from Vlora to Tirana. Regards. --Revizionist (talk) 14:27, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

You didn't answer the first or the third question, though. 3rdAlcove (talk) 14:30, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

As I said it is analogical. For example, as you will see in the Pontic Greek article, the Pontian diaspora includes both Pontic Greeks in Greece and both Pontic Greeks or people of Pontic Greek descent in the diaspora or other countries. Also a ethnic Macedonian that comes from R.Macedonia to Greek Macedonia is not an Aegean Macedonian - he is an emigrant from R.Macedonia in Greece. Everything you asked me is analogical with Pontic Greeks. Everything. Regards --Revizionist (talk) 14:36, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Man, stop with the 'analogical'. Ok, and what about the last question? How do you call an ethnic Macedonian living in any part of Greece other than Macedonia? Simply "Macedonian"? 3rdAlcove (talk) 14:42, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

We call all of them simply Macedonians. But as for regional and cultural heritage we call all ethnic Macedonians that have decent from Greek Macedonia - Aegean Macedonians. If an ethnic Macedonian from Greece lives in Athens, he is an Aegean Macedonian, for he has originated from Aegean Macedonia - that is why i say it is analogical to Pontic Greeks. If a Pontic Greek lives in Istanbul he is still a Pontic Greek, for his origin and culture is connected to Pontous. Regards. --Revizionist (talk) 14:46, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

See? When you drop the 'analogical', it flows better. What's the difference in culture between Macedonians from the Republic and "Aegean Macdonians"? 3rdAlcove (talk)

The answer will be given if you ask yourself what is the difference in culture between the Greeks in Albania and the Greeks in Thesally. For example, the language of the ethnic Macedonians in R.Macedonia and in Greek Macedonia is the same, the songs, rituals are 90% the same, but still there are several songs and dances that are specific for them - like Mori chupi Kosturcanki and so on. This is a conglomerate of both regional, ethnographic and historical identity, as it is for the Pontic Greeks. Regards. --Revizionist (talk) 14:59, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

You really love those Pontic Greeks, don't you? Thanks, specific songs do cut it. ;) 3rdAlcove (talk) 15:03, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Btw, are the Argeads considered "Aegean Macedonians" in the official historiography of the Republic? Or simply Grkomani? 3rdAlcove (talk) 20:20, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, i have just gone onto the greek diaspora page and added up the number of greeks in the countries surrounding the black sea. (where pontic greeks are from) And the total number was - 212,901 what does the article claim 3,000,000 (est.)!!! Does that mean there are 2,800,000 pontic greeks in greece!? P m kocovski (talk) 14:01, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

"Niel Simpson, Macedonia;Its Disputed History,Aristoc Press.1994"

Would the user who added the ref be so kind as to give us some info about it? Perhaps a website link, an abstract etc. 3rdAlcove (talk) 15:18, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

If you find the link on the internet good luck. But if you request i can give you the terminology in which the text was used. I have the book. P m kocovski (talk) 08:07, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Template:cite book is good for this. BalkanFever 08:14, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

The reference has been fixed. P m kocovski (talk) 11:13, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

(un)Yes, obviously can't find it. In any case, it doesn't state anything that looks like POV (well, a few estimates maybe, but who knows). 3rdAlcove (talk) 11:27, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I foundt it here but its just the reference not the text. P m kocovski (talk) 06:35, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

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Estimates

I changed the estimate back to 30,000. If you really feel I'm POV-pushing here, PLEASE take a look at the relevant discussion on the talk page of Macedonians (ethnic group) and don't start edit warring. Discuss, instead. 3rdAlcove (talk) 11:24, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually the discussion on Ethnic Macedonians talk page, has turned into a question of whether someone will be punched in florina, so lets discuss it here? Why do you keep reverting to the old Helsinki Numbers, when there are many other sources saying otherwise? P m kocovski (talk) 07:32, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Ok, like I said, only Britannica mentions 200,000 Macedonians and doesn't give its source. All the others use Helsinki which clearly makes the distinction between "M" and "M speakers". So, where did Britannica find 200,000 Macedonians when the others find 30,000 at best? B being a tertiary source should not be preferred (though it'd be nice to know whether it misinterpreted other sources -M vs M speakers- or simply used a yet undiscovered one). 3rdAlcove (talk) 14:27, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, the only source qouting the 30,000 is the helsinki monitor (as far as i can see), many others apart from brittanica use the 200,000. I havent seen any western sources in a while stating over 200,000. P m kocovski (talk) 10:13, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Delete article

Such article usually come together following a debate. This did not take place. Also, the article seems opportunistic and irredentist in inspiration. Please delete. Politis (talk) 12:49, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

AfD

• Reasons for deleting this article.
• On 17 April 2008 an international panel discussion was held in Brussels, at the European Parliament. Its subject was 'The Ignored Minorities of Greece'. It was organised by the EFA parliamentary group and concerned the "Turkish" and "ethnic Macedonian" minorities in Greece with speakers representing those communities. At no time, before, during or after was there any mention of 'Aegean Macedonian', neither did this term appear in any of the hand-outs or books available. This term is not a recognised term by the very people whom it targets. Politis (talk) 16:12, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Politis, if you want this argument to be heard, you need to make it at the Afd page, which is currently active. (Although, I'd say, it's really an argument for renaming more than an argument for deletion, and not a particularly strong one at that.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:33, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

If the people whom it targets do not use it, then the seriousness, relevance and appropriatness of the article is seriously flawed. We might as well introduce articles on 'Aegean Macedonians' in the sense of Greek Macedonians who live along the Aegean coastline, or 'Greek Pelagonians' for those who lived between Florina and Krushevo. Sorry, the topic is touched upon in other articles. Politis (talk) 16:47, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Well seeing as there arent any macedonians in other sections of greece it seems appropriate to name them so. Seeing as the greek community of macedonia(region) is mainly in Greek Macedonia, they only need to identify as Greek Macedonians. If you wish to create an article Greek Pelagonians then you are free to do so. P m kocovski (talk) 04:06, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

This should not be deleted

The Aegean Macedonians are infact a subgroup of Ethnic Macedonians but because of their experiences under Greece, have differences which cause them to be a subgroup:

1. Church affiliation (Macedonian Orthodox Church vs Greek Orthodox Church)
2. Last names (-SKI, -OFF, -OV vs -OS)
3. 1913-present history and experiences (Division of Macedonia)
4. War Involvement (ASNOM vs SNOF)
5. Aegean Macedonians have a different view and experience because of the affects of Hellenization after 1913, they even call themselves Aegean Macedonian or Macedonian from the Aegean

And Greeks, again "Aegean" is simply Geographic terms, like you state "Macedonian" is Geographic for yourselves. This portion of the ethnicity even fought a completely different war then the rest of the Ethnic Macedonians. Mactruth (talk) 19:29, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

You can say that at the deletion page: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Aegean Macedonians. BalkanFever 08:21, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, maybe it shouldn't. I'm starting to warm up to it, truth be told. It isn't as POV as I expected it to be and, with a single exception, M users seem to be cooperative so far. ;) 3rdAlcove (talk) 14:23, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Don't worry, btw. United Macedonians will prevail again. You folks already have more votes. Wikipedia article today, Aegean Macedonia tomorrow. *drumroll* 3rdAlcove (talk) 14:35, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh please P m kocovski (talk) 23:06, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Wow 3rdAlcove, Aegean Macedonians are the same as "Greek Macedonians." Aegean is the region, Macedonian is the ethnicity. They have a different history and consequences due to the division of Macedonia in 1913 and the Greek Civil War. It's the same as saying Macedonian is the region, Greek is the ethnicity, different histories because of different rulers etc. Mactruth (talk) 01:38, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Joke, folks, joke... 3rdAlcove (talk) 17:17, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

It's alright we know. P m kocovski (talk) 11:47, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Zigomanis

Hey guys,Zigomanis is Greek Macedonians not Slav.He is also member of the greek national team so be careful with what you write here.Wikipedia should not be a place for propaganda85.74.142.154 (talk) 22:57, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

There has been arguments whether Zigomanis is Greek or Macedonian, the fact that he is on the Greek national team doesn't tell us much about his origins/ethnicity. Please provide clear evidence that he is Greek. Mactruth (talk) 03:33, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Doesn't it give info about his self-identification? --Laveol ^T 06:46, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Deletion?

What the hell is going on? We have articles like Slavophone Greeks and Slavika and then Greek editors are calling this article a POV-fork. --Hegumen (talk) 10:35, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Article makes nonsense of the subject

This article is seriously flawed. Many of its sources are partisan, if not dubious. The people whom it targets (and the Vinozhito/Ouranio Toxo representatives) of the Slavophone Macedonians of Greece do NOT identify as 'Aegean Macedonians'. Even though the term with reference to a people only began in 1947 (or around then), we have a serious issue of back dating it. And now it seems that attempts to rectify the situation will be labeled in derogatory term. At the very least this article needs to re-written. I am only interested in facts and especially in bona fide, original source documentsUser:Politis

Yes and no. If you ask a greek from macedonia "What is your nationaility/what ethnic group are you part of? he will answer Greek. Similar to the Aegean Macedonians. P m kocovski (talk) 13:57, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I cannot speak for your encounters. But I have met, eat, drank and travelled with Greek (Slavo) Macedonians, including so called autonomist sympathisers. None of them said 'Aegean Macedonian', they all agreed on 'ethnic Macedonian' as opposed to 'Greek Macedonian'. In all their communications, Vinozito stresses 'Greek citizens and ethnic Macedonians'. [No one in Europe asks what is your ethnic group, just, 'where are you from']. Politis (talk) 18:09, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes you are right but if you speak to someone say in greek and he says he's from macedonia, you would assume he's a greek from greek macedonia, or a greek macedonian. Similar to an ethnic macedonian, if you ask him what village his from and he says Kotori/Lerinsko (Kato Idroussa ,florina), you say ah an Egejc (Aegean Macedonian) he says yes. Of course the political party would stress that they are Ethnic Macedonians because that is the WHOLE ethnic group, aegean macedonians are comparable to a subgroup. P m kocovski (talk) 22:48, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Something which I didn't realize at first is what INkubusse noted on the vote for deletion page:

"Aegean Macedonians" doesn't mean "Ethnic Macedonians in Greece"; it's the name for all Macedonians originating from Aegean Macedonia. Many of them live in EU countries, RoM and overseas countries. See Marek Jankulovski as an example.

The people discussed in this article are many and live all around the world. Their plight is well documented and therefor deserve an article of their own. As INkubusse noted, the term is not synonymous with Ethnic Macedonians in Greece, which needs to be a separate article in itself. --Hegumen (talk) 03:15, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Ethnic Macedonians of Greece as Revizionist suggested BalkanFever 03:19, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

I oppose naming the article "Ethnic Macedonians of Greece" (except as a redirect) because they are not known as such; the term is simply Aegean Macedonians and that's it. --iNkubusse^? 14:59, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

350,000

i noticed that there has been some edit warring regardind the numbers 350,000+ vs. 100,000-200,000. I placed the country sections below it so that i wouldnt be accuse of saying that there was 350,000 ethnic macedonians in greece. That is why the countries section is below to disambiguate, Just a comment. P m kocovski (talk) 12:36, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Polibiush: "This is an estimate, that includes the diaspora." Isn't the whole diaspora included in the infobox? If not, what other countries are home to the 150-200,000 remaining Ms? 3rdAlcove (talk) 18:43, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Opening Comment

"Aegean Macedonians" (Macedonian: Егејски Македонци) or simply "Aegeans" (Macedonian: Егејци) refers to those ethnic Macedonians who live in, or who originate from, the Greek region of Macedonia. Hi, i was just wondering if the opening paragraph is satisfactory or if it could be improved any comments? P m kocovski (talk) 08:32, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi, I have no strong opinion either way on the content, I'm just stopping in as an uninvolved admin, who is helping out in areas where there may be ethnic disputes (see WP:WORKGROUP). My first question though, would be, "Are there sources which make that definition?" Also, on the list of "notables", do we have sources for each of those names, which clearly state, "This person was an Aegean Macedonian"? If not, anything unsourced should be removed, per WP:V. --Elonka 19:20, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Excellent "Minority Rights" Source

I found this source which gives detail of the ethnic Macedonians in Greece (Aegean Macedonians or simply to Macedonians as "Aegeans"). The source states history, population, and other informative information. Please read and add to the article accordingly (I have been banned for 2 months from doing it) http://www.minorityrights.org/?lid=1513 Mactruth (talk) 02:59, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Aegean Macedonians as Greeks?

Do Greeks in the Diaspora really indentify as Aegean Macedonians? The Source is very dubious. Which macedonian calles the ROM, skopje?, slav macedonia?, Makedonska? (macedonian)? The last one would be like calling Greece, Greek and Turkey, Turkish! Also romania and "Magyarszag"? that is the term for Hungary in Hungarian! Who calls egypt the UAR , and turkey the Ottoman Empire? What a ridiculously sources piece of information?! PMK1 (talk) 04:42, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Looks like political editing

Lets no run around different terms. The source is from the "Australian Bureau of Statistics, catalogue no. 1269.0". It indicates that there were Greeks who identified as originating from the Aegean Islands and Aegean Macedonian.

Regarding the self-appelation, go to florina.org, the site of the representatives of the community. The authors of the website never refer to their community or to themselves as Aegean Macedonians but as ethnic Macedonians. Likewise when they go to the European Parliament, it is always as ethnic Macedonians. Therefore the information is correct and sourced. Politis (talk) 16:23, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Huh? The Australian source you give [1] is about countries, not ethnicities. It instructs Australian civil servants that if an immigrant tells them he was born in "Aegean Macedonia", they should count him as being born in Greece. The source contains nothing about whether it is ethnic Greeks or ethnic Macedonians who use that term. The other thing, about the term never having been used as a self-appellation in Greece, that's blatantly your OR and unsourced, and absence of evidence in one particular source (florina.org) is not evidence of absence, as you should well know. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:29, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

I think you are interpreting the instructions to Australian civil servants. If absence of evidence is a valid reason, then anything that lacks a source is valid. Obviously not, so prove it then that the term is accepted (a few one-off is not a source) as a self-designation within Greece and by Greek citizens of whatever ethnicity. florina.org are quite clear in their self-appelation and it is not AM. Also, most of us are not 24/7 on wikipedia, so assumptions and comments on what people should know are a tad offensive. Or one can resign from administrator and we can enjoy wikipedia. Politis (talk) 16:46, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

The task of proving anything is on you. As long as we have no specific sources either way, the question of whether the term is used in the specific context of self-appellation in Greece is not an issue for us. "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" is a general rule of logic, not a rule of wikipedia, so yes, you ought to be familiar with it. And the thing about what the Australian document means is obvious to everybody who can read. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:00, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

You source is also questionable when someone born in "Magyarszag" should be counted as born in Romania? [2]? PMK1 (talk) 01:51, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

It also states someone who says they are born in "Macedonia" should be counted as born in this country. Somehow, I don't think Politis will like that. BalkanFever 02:01, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Persecution and Discrimination

i am responding to selekousa's comments on the Slavophone Greeks talk page. I plan on using neutral western sources, not greek or macedonian ones.

• "By 1959 several 'language oaths' had been introduced whereby the inhabitants of certain villages would "renownce their Slavic dialect and speak only Greek"

in 1959 around Florina (Lerin) and Kastoria (Kostur) villages, were asked to confirm publicly in front of officials that they did not speak macedonian. Hugh Poulton-Who are the Macedonians, page 163.

Two elderly villagers told the mission of the 1959 sessions in three villages in which all villages were taken to a central square and forced to swear they would not speak "the slavic idiom" [ie. Macedonian]. - Helsinki Right Watch.

That is sourced from=>

The minority right groups reports: "[I]n 1959 in the villages aournd Lerin, Kostur and Kajlari the inhabitants were asked to confirm publicly in front of officials that they did not speak Macedonian.

We were not born yesterday selekousa, i nor the other users have to prove to you that these events happened. Some people will never understand. It is like denying the holocaust or the armenian genocide ever happened. PMK1 (talk) 07:00, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Since you failed to answer my comments (and you only saw the "oaths") let me add them here also so that the other editors could have a look.I am not the one you have to convince. Is everyone else! And the fact that this article is based mainly on strangely quoted sources and even in pure propaganda lies (such as the supposed Law No 87/1936) gives a hint of what this article contains.Distorting real facts in order to serve POV is certainly not the way to contribute. (Especially when in fact only 2 villagers say that the oath happened in 3 villages in one occasion. Were are the several villages??? Which villages around Kastoria, and Florina? Read more carefully below to see how the suposed sources are actually a Greek newspaper from 1959)The below text is from the talk page of Slavophone Greeks.

I do have the feeling that various sources are used to back up POV claims while in fact the source probably says otherwise or nothing about the specific subject.Just to demonstrate how sources were used in this article lets see some examples.

The KKE expressed its intent to "fight for the national self-determination of the repressed (ethnic) Macedonians".

The above text is supported by this source. “KKE, Πέντε Χρόνια Αγώνες 1931-1936, Athens, 2nd ed., 1946.”

Can we see the specific paragraph from this book? I somehow doubt that in 1931-36 KKE had any idea about the Slav-Macedonian plans of Tito.

And another passage :

Owing to the KKE's equal treatment of ethnic Macedonians and Greeks, many ethnic Macedonians enlisted as volunteers in the DSE 60% of the DSE was composed of ethnic Macedonians. It was during this time that books written in the Macedonian language were published and ethnic Macedonians cultural organizations theatres were opened.[21] According to information announced by Paskal Mitrovski on the I plenum of NOF on August 1948, about 85% of the Slavic-speaking population in Greek Macedonia had an ethnic Macedonian self-identity. It has been estimated that out of DSE's 20,000 fighters, 14,000 were Slavic Macedonians from Greek Macedonia.

The above paragraph is backed by these sources : "Η Τραγική αναμέτρηση, 1945-1949 – Ο μύθος και η αλήθεια. Ζαούσης Αλέξανδρος" (ISBN 9607213432).

Simpson, Neil (1994). Macedonia Its Disputed History. Victoria: Aristoc Press, 101,102 & 91. ISBN 0646204629. Both sources are used to back up more claims in this article. Can we see the paragraph that suggests the above? (Especially from the Greek book?)

And this

”However the situation deteriorated after the Communists lost the Greek Civil War. By 1959 several 'language oaths' had been introduced whereby the inhabitants of certain villages would "renownce their Slavic dialect and speak only Greek"

.[39] referenced by “ Denying Ethnic Identity: the Macedonians of Greece: the Macedonians of Greece, Human Rights Watch/Helsinki, New York, 1994” Again the reality is different. Acording to Vlassis Vlasidis - Veniamin Karakostanoglou [[3]] in their article “Recycling Propaganda:Remarks on Recent Reports on Greece's "Slav-Macedonian Minority” things were completely different :

“ Peasants in Greek Western Macedonia were forced to take a public oath, declaring they would never use their mother Slavic tongue again. Whitman says (p. 8) that such ceremonies took place in "several" villages and (p. 40 note 59) "in the villages around Lerin, Kostur and Kajlari the inhabitants were asked to confirm...". MRG-GR says in "many" villages, and Poulton that "villagers were asked to make public declarations" (p. 6). MRG-GR is drawing information from Greek newspapers, Malcolm from Poulton, Poulton from Andonofski (who also talks about "several" villages)25, Whitman from Danforth, Danforth from Stoyan Pribichevitch26, Pribichevitch from the American Consul General in Thessaloniki, and the last one most likely from the Greek newspaper Ellinikos Vorras (July 8, 1959, August 5, 1959, August 11, 1959). In fact such oaths were indeed taken by villagers after church service under yet unknown circumstances, probably at the initiative of local officials. Apparently they were discontinued once they became known to authorities in Athens. But the villages were definitely no more than three out of a total of 2,500 communities scattered in Greek Macedonia27."

And my favorite. The article says :

“Their native speech was banned in everyday use and even within their own households while personal names were also forcibly changed from Macedonian to Greek ones”

The reference given by the author is this : “Law No. 87 of 1936 Ordered all Macedonians to change their names to Greek names”. Unfortunately for this reference there was never a law for changing Slavic surnames to Greek ones. Acording to Vlassis Vlasidis - Veniamin Karakostanoglou [[4]] in their article “Recycling Propaganda:Remarks on Recent Reports on Greece's "Slav-Macedonian Minority” they are very clear :

Lois Whitman took for granted (p. 6 note 15) an undated report by the Association of Refugee Children from "Aegean Macedonia" which said that by Law No 87/1936 Slavic surnames had to be changed. Similar references are given by Popov and Radin. Still, all of our attempts to trace state laws calling for the change of surnames were in vain. And certainly the law cited is quite irrelevant to the subject mentioned.”

Seleukosa (talk) 16:42, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Just to protect some editors from embarrassment the Law No 87/1936 (that supposedly forced people to change Slavic surnames to Greek ones) is actually a law about the social security of the lawyers of Greece (free translation)

(here it is in Greek : “ν. 87/1936 περί ιδρύσεως ταμείου προνοίας παρ’ εκάστω δικηγορικώ συλλόγω”).

It is not enough not to be born yesterday. You also have to check the sources before you use them. Otherwise false information will appear.

Seleukosa (talk) 16:44, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

If the citation is misleading, and not in accord with WP:VERIFY and WP:Reliable sources, remove both the citation and the cited text. Factual accuracy is jeopardized, unless a proper source is provided.--Yannismarou (talk) 17:13, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Just for the record this is what Riki Van Boeschoten, "Code-switching, Linguistic Jokes and Ethnic Identity,Reading Hidden

Transcripts in a Cross-Cultural Context", Journal of Modern Greek Studies 25(Johns Hopkins University Press 2006) 347, writes about it "It was in this context that in 1959, on the initiative of local government officials, in some Slav-speaking villages a most peculiar ritual took place, in which the inhabitants gathered in the square and took a collective oath never to speak their native language again (Kostopoulos 2000:234–242). From a historical viewpoint, these ceremonies could be considered as only marginal episodes. (According to existing documentation only three villages were involved.) For anthropologists, however, they may appear as an important moment in Greek nation-building (Karakasidou 2002:195), or as a meaningful starting point to look at conflicting linguistic attitudes. The oath [...] was published in the Athenian newspaper Sfera on 1 September 1959. This was the text pronounced by the inhabitants of a village near Florina on 10 August 1959, standing in the schoolyard and surrounded by military and political leaders of the region." I have to note though that despite its marginality the whole affair was indeed disgraceful--Giorgos Tzimas (talk) 17:59, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Language Oaths

You have raised many issues, it is easier this way. One of the sources i used was the Greek helsinki monitor report. The statement was referenced by this <ref.Denying Ethnic Identity: the Macedonians of Greece: the Macedonians of Greece, Human Rights Watch/Helsinki, New York, 1994 </ref>. On page 40 it clearly states the information. It does talk to the two villagers, but then it has a reference to Minority Rights Groups, Minorities in the Balkans, page 31.. In Hugh Poultons, Who are the Macedonians? p.163. in 1959 in the villages around Florina and Kastoria were ... Basically the exact same thing.

What i find interesting is that your source does not deny these things happened. rather: In fact such oaths were indeed taken by villagers after church service under yet unknown circumstances, probably' at the initiative of local officials. Apparently they were discontinued once they became known to authorities in Athens., the way in which the sources are presented , aparently and probably, does not actually tell me YES, the oaths were discontinued, NO, they continued. I definately agree with the last statements, only three villages were taken to oath, that is not being challenged. Also when news of the oaths have been put into the media [Greek Newspaper] trying to claim they did not occur is very hard. The source does not add a reference at the end of the statements, but rather another comment originating from the authors. So unless sourced, It is the opinion of Vlassis Vlasidis and Veniamin Karakostanoglou that: "oaths were indeed taken by villagers ... probably at the initiative of local officials" and "Apparently they were discontinued once they became known to authorities in Athens" . PMK1 (talk) 03:04, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Native Speech

It is well known that the Macedonian language has been restricted in the past and some levels still aplly. Formal criminilization of the Macedonian langauge began during the Metaxas Regime. After creating the ABECEDAR primer, the greek government took a backflip and criminilized the use of the Macedonian language. Back then it was also known as "Slav-Macedonian", "Macedonian-Slavic", "Bulgarian", "Macedonian" or just "Slavic". Today linguists are of the opinion that the language spoken in West/Central Macedonia is Macedonian. During the time of the Metaxas regime, people could be fined or beaten for speaking the "slavic/local idiom". It is interesting that in "Hugh Poulton's, Who are the Macedonians? , p.88": "the greek representative to the league [of nations], Vasilis Dendramis, defended it [the language] on the gorunds that the Macedonian Slav language was "neither Bulgarian, nor serbian, but an independant language.

• The HELSINKI report says, that according to a president ot a town council, In 1936 the language [Macedonian] was banned by the Metaxas dictatorship and local were persecuted for using it. If you said so much as stop or go in the local language, you were fined and made to drink castor oil.
• Hugh Poulton's, Who are the Macedonians? , p.88 also claims that the language was forbidden, and that there were penalties, a reference to the Macedonian PEN centre is made.
• From a book by Peter Hill, an extensive writer on Macedonians, "The Macedonians in Australia" p.7, "With the advent of the Ioannis Metaxas regime, conditions for Slav Macedonians became intolerable. Their native speech was prohibited even in their own homes. Also "The second wave [of Maceodnian immigration to australia] occured in 1936 when the Metaxas regime too control in Greece".
• Neil Simpson, Macedonia It's Disputed History, p.66 "In August 1936 the Metaxas dictatorship came about, resulting in the restoration of the monarchy and the intenisifcation of repression [of macedonians]", " A law was soon introduced which forbade the use of the Macedonian language".
• The Rising Sun In the Balkans: The Republic Of Macedonia, International Affairs Agency, Sydney, Pollitecon Publications, 1995; p.33. "The Dictatorial regime established in 1936 under General Metaxas adopted a policy of forced assimiliation towards the Macedonian minority. The represssion on the macedonians minority in Greece was further stepped up. Macedonians were forbidden to speak their language in public and deportations to the islands became usual government practice."
• Macedonia: The Politics of Identity and Difference, Jane Cowan, p.57. "It was also in that era. The Metaxas regime, banned by law. One could be severly fined for using it in private conversations..."
• Ourselves and Others: The Development of a Greek Macedonian, Peter Mackridge, Eleni Yannakakis p.66. "the available information is enough to gauge the compulsary methods of assimilation adopted by Metaxas. These included, in the first place, prohibitions against the local slavic idiom"

PMK1 (talk) 07:56, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

The KKE

In response to this queery "Owing to the KKE's equal treatment of ethnic Macedonians and Greeks, many ethnic Macedonians enlisted as volunteers in the DSE (60% of the DSE was composed of ethnic Macedonians).[20] It was during this time that books written in the Macedonian language were published and ethnic Macedonians cultural organizations theatres were opened.[21] According to information announced by Paskal Mitrovski on the I plenum of NOF on August 1948, about 85% of the Slavic-speaking population in Greek Macedonia had an ethnic Macedonian self-identity. It has been estimated that out of DSE's 20,000 fighters, 14,000 were Slavic Macedonians from Greek Macedonia.[22][23]".

The first source ""Η Τραγική αναμέτρηση, 1945-1949 – Ο μύθος και η αλήθεια. Ζαούσης Αλέξανδρος" (ISBN 9607213432). " is from this page National Liberation Front (Macedonia), the text is "Owing to the KKE's equal treatment of ethnic Macedonians and Greeks, many ethnic Macedonians enlisted as volunteers in the DSE (60 per cent of the DSE was composed of ethnic Macedonians).[23]" and reference 23 is "Η Τραγική αναμέτρηση, 1945-1949 – Ο μύθος και η αλήθεια. Ζαούσης Αλέξανδρος" (ISBN 9607213432)." I cannot tell you any further information about the source.

As for the second source "Simpson, Neil (1994). Macedonia Its Disputed History. Victoria: Aristoc Press, 101,102 & 91. ISBN 0646204629." it was used twice in the quoted text. The first qoute [21] is from this sentence: "During the Greek Civil War many Macedonian language and cultural institutions were opened. Cultural and Theatrical groups were opened. Books and teaching instruments had been brought in from the newly created People's Republic of Macedonia. By 1949 over 10,000 Macedonians been enrolled at Macedonian language schools."

the second [23] => "There was a strong Macedonian autonomist wing in the KKE at this time, which is hardly surprising given that a large proportion of the fighters were from the Aegean Macedonia region. It is estimated that of the 25,000 fighters in 1948, 11,000 - 14,000 were Macedonian speaking. They were organised in the NOF, the National Liberation Front, which was the successor of SNOF ... "

In reference to your first queery this source "KKE, Πέντε Χρόνια Αγώνες 1931-1936, Athens, 2nd ed., 1946. ". is from the Communist Party of Greece page, which clearly states "In 1934, the KKE expressed its intent to "fight for the national self-determination, and ultimately secession, of the repressed Macedonians and Thracians, and to collaborate for this goal with the Bulgarian organizations of the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization and the Thracian Revolutionary Organisationunder a People's Republic were all Nations will found their self determinations and will build the common state of the workers...".[6]." the source [6] is "KKE, Πέντε Χρόνια Αγώνες 1931-1936, Athens, 2nd ed., 1946. ". I myself have not seen the source but i have used the same quotation. PMK1 (talk) 07:07, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Changing of Personal Names

It is well known that before 1913 Slavs in greek Macedonia had slavic names, eg Tošev, Stojanov, Veloski, Pandu, etc. You have challenged the source provided.

The law 87 of 1936 is directly referenced from the HRW-HELSINKI, denying ethnic identity, p.6. "The government changed place and personal names from Macedonian to Greek".

Peter Hill, Macedonians in Australia states: "Place and personal names were forcibly Hellenized and the native Macedonian dialects were banned even in personal use.".

• The Rising Sun In the Balkans: The Republic Of Macedonia, International Affairs Agency, p.33; "all personal names were changed from the original slavic ones to greek ones."

• Ourselves and Others: The Development of a Greek Macedonian, Peter Mackridge, Eleni Yannakakis p.66. " the practise of changing local Slav place-names in to Greek, which had begun in the early 1920's as a result of the settlement of refugees in western Greek Macedonia, was stepped up; and it seems that it was extended to the names and surnames of local inhabitants as well"

PMK1 (talk) 08:54, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't know what bullshit the HRW-HELSINKI says, but this is the exact content of the law 87/1936 retrieved from the Greek legal basis NOMOS, using my codes:

" Αρθρο 1.

     -1. Δια Β.Δ/τος προκαλουμένου υπό του υπουργού της Δικαισύνης,
   επιτρέπεται να συνιστάται ίδιον παρά εκάστω δικηγορικώ συλλόγω, εφ` όσον 
   ήθελε  ζητηθή  τούτο υπό της γενικής συνελεύσεως αυτού,  ταμείον
   προνοίας δικηγόρων, σκοπόν  έχον την παροχήν βοηθημάτων η περιθάλψεως 
   εις τα μέλη του συλλόγου και τας οικογενείας η συγγενείς αυτών, κατά 
   τα εν τω καταστατικώ αυτού καθορισθησόμενα.

     "Εξαιρετικώς δια  τον δικηγορικόν σύλλογον Αθηνών δύναται να προκληθή 
   το σχετικόν  Β.Δ/μα άνευ  αποφάσεως της γενικής  συνελεύσεως, εφ` όσον
   ζητηθή  δι` αποφάσεως του διοικητικού συμβουλίου λαμβανομένης δια 
   πλειοψηφίας  των 2/3 της ολομελείας  αυτού".

     *** Η εντός " "διατάξεις της παρ.1 προσετέθη  υπό του άρθρ.22 Α.Ν.1752
   (6.Δα.30) Πρβλ. και άρθρ.23 του αυτού Α.Νόμου.

     "Σκοπός επίσης των ιδρυομένων  Ταμείων Προνοίας  είναι η παροχή 
   ιατρικής και υγειονομικής περιθάλψεως εις τους συνταξιούχους εκ των
   μελών του οικείου Δικηγορικού Συλλόγου.  Οι όροι και προϋποθέσεις της
   παροχής της περιθάλψεως  ταύτης,  ο κύκλος των δικαιουμένων ταύτης
   μελών  των οικογενειών των, αι  εισφοραί  τούτων και πάσα αναγκαία διά 
   παροχήν  της περιθάλψεως  λεπτομέρεια, θέλουσι καθορισθή δι`  αποφάσεως
   του Διοικητικού Συμβουλίου του οικείου Ταμείου, εγκρινομένης δι`
   αποφάσεως του Υπουργού Δικαιοσύνης.

     Δια της αυτής  αποφάσεως δύναται  να καθορισθή  ότι αι εισφοραί 
   παρακρατούνται εκ της υπό  του Ταμείου Συντάξεων Νομικών καταβαλλομένης
   συντάξεως".

   *** Η ανωτέρω  εντός ""παράγραφος προσετέθη  δια της παρ.1 άρθρ.20
   Ν.Δ.3790/57.

     2. Το καταστατικόν   εκάστου τοιούτου ταμείου εκπονείται υπό της 
   γενικής συνελεύσεως του οικείου δικηγορικού συλλόγου και κυρούται,
   δυνάμενον να τροποποιηθή, δια  του ιδρυτικού του ως άνω ταμείου
   διατάγματος.

     3. Δια  του καταστατικού  τούτου επιτρέπεται : α) Να ορίζωνται
   εισφοραί  των μελών,  υποχρεωτικαί, τακτικαί  και έκτακτοι,
   καθοριζομένων των όρων και προϋποθέσεων καταβολής εκάστης.  β) Να
   επιβληθώσι τέλη καταβλητέα υπό`των κατά τον Κώδικα περί  δικηγόρων
   αρμοδίων και ικανών εις παράστασιν και εκπροσώπησιν των διαδίκων κατά
   την επιχείρησιν υπ`  αυτών εκάστης  επί μέρους διαδικαστικής πράξεως
   ενώπιον των δικαστηρίων η δικαστικών  αρχών  η ωρισμένων ενεργειών 
   ενώπιον των διοικητικών αρχών  και επιτροπών,  ως και κατά την σύνταξιν
   εγγράφων,  γνωμοδοτήσεων ή εξωδίκων κοινοποιήσεων.

     γ) "Να  καθορισθώσι τα καταβλητέα  τω Ταμείω Προνοίας υπό εκάστου
   δικηγόρου ποσοστά  της κατά  τον Κώδικα περί  Δικηγόρων εισπραττομένης
   παρά του δικηγόρου αμοιβής δια την ενώπιον των Δικαστηρίων η
   Διοικητικών Επιτροπών παράστασιν και συζήτησιν.  Το ποσοστόν τούτο δεν
   δύναται να είναι ανώτερον του (10ο/ο).

      *** Το εδαφ.  γ` αντικατεστάθη ως άνω δια του άρθρ.2 Ν.753/1948.

      ***ΠΑΡΑΤΗΡΗΣΗ
         Δια της παρ.3 του άρθρου 20 του Ν.Δ.3790/57  ωρίσθη ότι το
         ποσοστόν του εδ. γ` επί  της δικηγορικής αμοιβής, αποδοχών κλπ.
         δύναται να ορισθή μέχρις 25%.

     4.  Δια του αυτού καταστατικού θέλουσι καθορισθή αι πειθαρχικαί
   ποιναί  και τα πρόστιμα αι επιβαλλόμεναι κατά των αρνουμένων εδάφιον
   εισφοράς  δικηγόρων,  ανεξαρτήτως των υπό του Κώδικος προβλεπομένων
   ποινών, εν υποτροπή  του παραβάτου καθισταμένου εκπτώτου από του
   δικαιώαμτος συμμετοχής εις τα εκ του ταμείου ωφελήματα.

     5. Τα κατά  τας περιπτώσεις β` και γ` της παρ.3 τέλη καταβάλλονται
   επί ποινή  απαραδέκτου του σχετικού εγγράφου και της παραστάσεως του
   πληρεξουσίου και της παραστάσεως του πληρεξουσίου του διαδίκου, επί 
   ουδενί  δε λόγω  επιτρέπεται  να επιβαρύνωνται δια  τοιούτων οι
   διάδικοι  ιδιώται.

     Βάσει του παρόντος Α.Ν. συνεστήθησαν δια Β.Δ/των τομεία προνοίας παρά
   τοις κάτωθι  δικηγορικοίς συλλόγοις :

     Αγρινίου (Β.Δ.16/26 Σεπτ.1949, Β.Δ.24/30 Νοεμ.1950).

     Αρτης  (Β.Δ.3/8 Δεκ.1937, Β.Δ.21/24 Νοεμ.1939).

     Βερροίας (B.Δ.19/24 Οκτ.1938, Β.Δ.28 Οκτ./2 Νοεμ.1939).

     Βόλου (Δ.1/3 Ιουλ.1941, Β.Δ.10 Οκτ./27 Δεκ.1945).

     Γρεβενών (Β.Δ.3/7 Απρ.1941, Δ.17 Ιαν./19 Οκτ.1942).

     Γυθείου (Β.Δ.31 Μαρτ./4 Απρ.1941).

     Δράμας (Β.Δ.12/19 Απρ.1941).

     Ηλείας (Β.Δ.30 Αυγ./6 Σεπτ.1937, Δ.17 Φεβρ./7 Απρ.1943).

     Ηρακλείου (Β.Δ.1/30 Σεπτ.1950).

     Θηβών (Β.Δ.14/19 Νοεμ.1940).

     Ιωαννίνων (Β.Δ.30 Αυγ./6 Σεπτ.1937, Δ.26 Φεβρ./29 Μαρτ.1943).

     Καβάλλας (Β.Δ.12/19 Απρ.1941).

     Καλυβρύτων (Β.Δ.3/7 Απρ.1941, Β.Δ.23 Ιαν./23 Σεπτ.1952).

     Καλαμών (Β.Δ.3/9 Απρ.1937, Δ.17 Ιουν./17 Σεπτ.1942, Δ.3/28 Ιουλ.1943,
   Β.Δ.29 Μαϊου/15 Ιουν.1945).

     Καρδίτσης (Δ.16 Φεβρ./19 Απρ.1943).

     Καστορίας (Β.Δ.19/21 Φεβρ.1941).

     Κερκύρας (Β.Δ.19 Νοεμ./15 Δεκ.1945).

     Κοζάνης (Β.Δ.11/14 Απρ.1941).

     Κορίνθου (Β.Δ.11/16 Απρ.1941).

     Λαμίας (Β.Δ.26 Σεπτ./1 Οκτ.1937, Δ.27 Ιαν./26 Μαρτ.1943).

     Λαρίσης (Δ.21/24 Ιουν.1941, Δ.28 Ιαν. Δ.3/12 Σεπτ.1945).

     Λεβαδείας (Β.Δ.5/10 Νοεμ.1937, Δ.30 Ιουν./7 Αυγ. 1942, Δ.27 Ιαν./26
   Μαρτ.1943, Β.Δ.27 Νοεμ./8 Δεκ.1951).

     Μεσολογγίου (Β.Δ.11/16 Απρ.1941, Δ.16 Φεβρ./20 Απρ.1943).

     Μυτιλήνης (Β.Δ.12/19 Απρ.1941, Δ.16 Φεβρ./19 Απρ.1943).

     Ναυπλίου (Β.Δ.19/25 Οκτ.1938, Β.Δ.12/17 Φεβρ.1940).

     Παρνασσίδος (Δ.16 Φεβρ./19 Απρ.1943).

     Πατρών (Β.Δ.12/16 Φεβρ.1940, Β.Δ.3/11 Σεπτ.1948, Β.Δ.24/30
   Νοεμ.1950)."

And this is the sole article of the law. So, in order to get a bit professional here. If you provide the law you say, then ok. But until then, your arguments constitute OR, and are removed. According to my knowledge, Greece was the only country that did not adopt a law for the forcible change of surnames in the Balkans (something that Greek populations in other Balkan countries suffered). If I am wrong, I'll be happy to rebut me. About the oaths, I cannot comment for the time being; I admit I do not know the story of what happened, and I have to first check what sources say, before I speak.--Yannismarou (talk) 11:53, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

And please also provide the number of the Metaxas law that forbade the use of the native speech. What the X writer says does not matter to me, unless an official government text is provided to verify the X claims. We cannot mention laws and legislature we cannot provide (or mention inexisting laws as happened above with the surnames!)! Verify your sources, otherwise we have a problem with the whole section. If you argue that there was an official policy of the Greek government, please tell me how and when was the native language forbidden? Which legal texts provide for the prohibition and the fines you say? If you cannot mention any law or legal text (royal decree? ministerial decision?), do we then have to do with an unofficial practice?--Yannismarou (talk) 12:23, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

So, to sum up and, unless otherwise proved and unless further supported with legal texts or other similar material, using a language of PMK about the oaths, it is the opinion of the x or z writer and it is the opinion of the Helsinki Watch that the use of the Slavic languages was banned and fined, and it is not a fact beyond doubt what these sources say without any verification (about the 1936 law I have nothing further to say; unless the proper law is provided, it is a shame for Wikipedia that such a claim supported by an non-existing law appeared in the main text). Therefore, the "Discriminations" section needs rewriting. And PMK did you ever care about cross-examining or proof-reading any of your sources?--Yannismarou (talk) 13:42, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

• "Most Ethnic Macedonians were forced to learn Greek at night schools." Why is this presented as a discrimination? Is it a discrimination to learn the language of the country you live?! I was also forced to learn Greek?!!! What are you trying to say here? Please, give me an explanation.--Yannismarou (talk) 14:13, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

For Raso mk and others.Please read this: WP:CONSENSUS :..."silence means consent". I did not see anyone reacting here, so there is reason for the reversion of Yannismarou's night schools thing edit.If you have anything to say about this, oppose it or so, do it here and don't just revert reasonable edits.Oh, and "Macedonian Boy", a source claiming nonsense with no real reason is not a worthy one and nonsense sources don't protect something as meaningless as this. --Michael X the White (talk) 18:18, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Language Oaths

So as I can PMK1 actually don’t disagree about what really happened. Obviously this was not an official government policy, was not at all an extended action and happened only in 3 villages and was immediately stopped. (And with no clear evidence of how it happened and by whom) Helsinki Right Watch actually agrees and clearly says that the 2 villagers mention that happened only in 3 villages. By the way Hugh Poulton cites as source for his information Andonofski (who talks about "several" villages). Is this a source based on Slav-historiography or not? Is Andononofski neutral in any way? Bu the way read more carefully Vlasidis/Karakostanoglou article about how this information about the language oaths has circulated. “MRG-GR is drawing information from Greek newspapers, Malcolm from Poulton, Poulton from Andonofski, Whitman from Danforth, Danforth from Stoyan Pribichevitch, Pribichevitch from the American Consul General in Thessaloniki, and the last one most likely from the Greek newspaper Ellinikos Vorras (July 8, 1959, August 5, 1959, August 11, 1959).” So the facts are simple: “In 3 villages under unknown circumstances the villagers took oaths not to use the Slavic idiom. The practice was quickly discontinued when it became known in the authorities.” And that is all. Not an official policy, not an extended practice. As I can see this was already corrected therefore I want argue further. Seleukosa (talk) 17:04, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Metaxas dictatorship

• It is correct that the language you refer as “Macedonian” was known till 1946 as “Slavic”, “Macedonian Slavic” or “Bulgarian” (sometimes in Greek as “Slavomakedonika”). However I was unable to find any law from the Metaxas period that was targeted against the use of Slav-Macedonian. The only law that I could found at that time period was the "νόμος περί δραστηριοτήτων ενάντια στην ασφάλεια του Κράτους" (18/12/36). I can not know if this was used against any people who were considered as Bulgarians therefore danger, but certainly far more information should be found. YiannisMarou did an excelent job.
• Unfortunately the only sources seem to be again Helnsiki report with the testimony from a president of a community whose memory goes back to 1936 and can actually give a description. (A completely unverified claim.)
  
• Pulton uses a reference from a Slav-Macedonian source (hardly neutral),
  
• Neil Simpson reproduced the supposed law that banned the use of the Slavic language but there is no reference. (Probably again from a Slav-Macedonian source.)
  
• The Rising Sun In the Balkans: The Republic Of Macedonia, International Affairs Agency (is this an official Slav-Macedonian publication??) obviously not of any use but lets see for a moment what it says. “were forbidden to speak their language in public and deportations to the islands became usual government practice”.What are the references for these claims ????
  
• By the way Whitman also suggests the deportation of (the incredible number!) of 5,000 Slav-speakers from Greek western Macedonia during Metaxas' dictatorship. Whitman’s source is Poulton, but Poulton reference is to the official Istorijata na Makedonskiot Narod (History of the Macedonian Nation) (Skopje, 1969, pp. 271-275). Again a reference from Slav-Macedonian historiography.
• However I can not deny that Metaxas regime lack any tolerance. It was a cruel dictatorship. All democratic citizens were targeted (and every liberal part of society).After all Metaxas oppressed the rebetiko songs, the buzuki instrument, communist party and democracy in general.
  

There wasn’t any need for special laws against the Slavic idiom. Just like any other idiom (or dialect or language) it had no chances to survive against the official state language “which secures economic and social advancement.” Seleukosa (talk) 17:04, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Are you trying to tell me that the language was not banned? What kind of sources are you looking for? If you are looking for a specific greek law than i can be of no help, i do not speak greek. "There wasn’t any need for special laws against the Slavic idiom", well aparently there was some reason. I have produced 7-8 sources backing these claims up, are you after more?. Maybe interveiws with people from the time and how they got beaten and fined for speaking macedonian. PMK1 (talk) 21:28, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it is an issue if all your sources just reproduce "Macedonian" sources. Can you provide any source not using references from "Macedonian" historiography or sources?--Yannismarou (talk) 07:39, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Well yes i have, but every source seems to be inadequete for you. These sources: Macedonia: The Politics of Identity and Difference, Jane Cowan, Ourselves and Others: The Development of a Greek Macedonian, Peter Mackridge, Neil Simpson, Macedonia It's Disputed History. The book: The Rising Sun In the Balkans: The Republic Of Macedonia, International Affairs Agency, is not an official book from the republic of macedonia. I do not understand what references are you looking for? An official law which stated that the language was banned?. I presented a law but i did not know it was innacurate. I relied on the "HELSINKI report" to be accurate.

If you are trying to say that the language was not banned, then i must disagree with you. I have presented a wide range of sources which you do not like. The same thing happened between me and laveol a while back on another controversial topic. You have also quoted "van Boeschoten" as saying: this peculiar ritual took place "on the initiative of local government officials.". If you are using the Vlasidis/Karakostanoglou source she makes no reference to these "rituals". You are claiming me of using biased Macedonian sources, wihlre all you have based your point on is the findings of Vlasidis/Karakostanoglou, which you have then presented as your own findings. PMK1 (talk) 02:34, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

KKE

• About the source : ""Η Τραγική αναμέτρηση, 1945-1949 – Ο μύθος και η αλήθεια. Ζαούσης Αλέξανδρος" (ISBN 9607213432). " I can understand that you simply used it because you found it. I am trying to find it in order to verify if there is actually such a passage. I strongly doubt it.
  
• As for the Neil Simpson’s “Macedonia Its Disputed History” I am unable to find any sources about this writer. We can hardly tell what his sources are.
• But as you also have clearly stated the passage from "KKE, Πέντε Χρόνια Αγώνες 1931-1936, Athens, 2nd ed., 1946 is different. There isn’t any mention to “ethnic-Macedonians” but a reference to Macedonians and Thracians. (Who were the Thracians?????) And of course within the concept of a ‘workers state”.
  
• Already the KKE in 1920es had followed the COMintern and announces the support of and independent Macedonian/Thrace with in the concept of a Balkan socialist federate state.
  

You can see that in the Rizospastis newspaper of 23/06/1929 [[5]] were KKE calls to the “ethnicities of Macedonia and Thrace”. (no ethnic Macedonians and certainly no ethnic Thracians!! And certainly many ethnicities.)
And even the decision of the 5th meeting of the Communist party of Greece there is a clear reference of Slav-Macedonians (in brackets near the term Macedonian) and about their self determination. Further more Nikos Zaxariadis (secretary general of KKE)urges for unity among the Greeks and the Slav-Macedonians

"Στη Βόρεια Ελλάδα ο μακεδονικός (σλαβομακεδονικός) λαός τα 'δωσε όλα για τον αγώνα και πολεμά με μια ολοκλήρωση ηρωισμού και αυτοθυσίας που προκαλούν το θαυμασμό. Δεν πρέπει να υπάρχει καμιά αμφιβολία ότι σαν αποτέλεσμα της νίκης του ΔΣΕ και της λαϊκής επανάστασης, ο μακεδονικός λαός θα βρει την πλήρη εθνική αποκατάστασή του έτσι όπως το θέλει ο ίδιος, προσφέροντας σήμερα με το αίμα του για να την αποχτήσει.Οι Μακεδόνες κομμουνιστές στέκονται πάντα επικεφαλής στην πάλη του λαού των. Ταυτόχρονα, οι Μακεδόνες κομμουνιστές πρέπει να προσέξουν τις διασπαστικές και διαλυτικές ενέργειες που ξενοκίνητα σοβινιστικά και αντιδραστικά στοιχεία αναπτύσσουν, για να διασπάσουν την ενότητα ανάμεσα στο μακεδονικό(σλαβομακεδονικό) και τον ελληνικό λαό, διάσπαση που μόνο τον κοινό τους εχθρό, το μοναρχοφασισμό και τον αμερικανοαγγλικό ιμπεριαλισμό θα ωφελήσει.Παράλληλα, το ΚΚΕ πρέπει ριζικά να βγάλει απ' τη μέση όλα τα εμπόδια, να χτυπήσει όλες τις μεγαλοελλαδίτικες σοβινιστικές εκδηλώσεις και τα έργα, που προκαλούν δυσαρέσκεια και δυσφορία μέσα στο μακεδονικό λαό και έτσι βοηθούν τους διασπαστές στην προδοτική δράση τους, ενισχύουν το έργο της αντίδρασης. Ο σλαβομακεδονικός και ελληνικός λαός μόνον ενωμένοι μπορούν να νικήσουν. Διασπασμένοι μόνον ήττες μπορούν να πάθουν. Γι' αυτό η ενότητα στην πάλη των δύο λαών πρέπει να φυλάγεται σαν κόρη οφθαλμού και να ενισχύεται και να δυναμώνει σταθερά και καθημερινά". ("Επίσημα Κείμενα ΚΚΕ", τόμος 6ος, σελ. 337-338). (a raff translation : “In northern Greece the Macedonian people (Slav-Macedonians) are fighting bravely for the cause. There is no doubt that after the victory of the Democratic army of Greece and the final establishment of the revolution the Macedonian people will have their national restoration as they want it. …. At the same time the Macedonia communist should be careful of the separate movement of sovinists that try to break the unity of the Macedonian(Slav-Macedonian) and Greek people….Slav-Macedonian and Greek people can win only if they stay united.” ( “Official text of KKE volume 6 pages 337-338)

• However in the 7th congress of the KKE in 1950 the previous statement of Zahariadis was declared as “wrong”. Furthermore Partsalidis (a KKE official who would became secretary general of KKE) suggested that the 5th congress statement about autonomy of Slav-Macedonians was “a separate movement of Tito’s followers”. He also said that the term “autonomy” in Marxist ideology has the meaning of “educational autonomy”.

“Μ. Παρτσαλίδης ο οποίος αν και παραδέχτηκε την ύπαρξη των αιτιών που οδήγησαν στη θέση της 5ης Ολομέλειας, χαρακτήρισε αυτή τη θέση "αποτυχημένη προσπάθεια αντιπερισπασμού στη διαλυτική δουλειά των τιτικών". Επίσης υπεραμύνθηκε της θέσης για ισοτιμία, εμφανίζοντάς την ως τη μόνη σωστή. Τέλος, ζήτησε να μην χρησιμοποιείται από το Κόμμα η λέξη "αυτονομία" για τους Σλαβομακεδόνες, γιατί μπορούσε να παρεξηγηθεί και υποστήριξε ότι "αυτή η λέξη στη μαρξιστική ορολογία έχει την έννοια της εκπαιδευτικής αυτονομίας" ("7η Ολομέλεια της ΚΕ του ΚΚΕ - Εισηγήσεις - Λόγοι - Αποφάσεις", μόνο για εσωκομματική χρήση, σελ. 37-38). (7th congress of KKE –Speeches – Decisions, only for in party use page 37-38

• So as you can see KKE supported a Socialist Macedonia (for all its ethnicities) within a concept of a Balkan workers state. Later it sifted into autonomy of the Slav-macedonians only and then declared the previus decision as a mistake and explained that it meant only “educational autonmomy”.Seleukosa (talk) 17:04, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I will attempt a more complete translation of the Zachariadis' text so that users with no working knowledge of Greek can make use of it. "In Northern Greece the macedonian (slavomacedonian) people gave everything for the cause and keep fighting with complete heroism and self-sacrifice which causes admiration. There should be no doubt that as a result of the victory of the Democratic Army of Greece and the people's revolution, the macedonian people will find its full ethnical restoration in the way they [the "macedonian people"] themselves desire, today offering with their blood to obtain it. The Macedonian communists always stand in charge of their people's struggle. At the same time, the Macedonian communists should be wary of disjunctive and dissolving [divisive] activities cultivated by foreign-influenced chauvinistic and reactionary elements, in order to dissolve the unity between the macedonian (slavomacedonian) and the greek peoples. A split which would only benefit their common enemy, monarcho-fascism [Note:Greek communists typically identified royalists with fascists] and the americano-english imperialism [Note:The communists had declared both the British and the Americans to be occupying forces in control of the Athens government. In everyday use in Greece, then and now, the term "English" is used for every British citizen/resident, regardless of them actually being English, Scottish, Welsh or Irish]. In parallel, the Communist Party of Greece must radically act to eliminate all obstacles, strike against all "Great Greece" chauvinistic displays and activities, which cause discontent and uneasiness within the macedonian people and thus assist those orchestrating the rift in their traitorous activities, supporting the reactionary cause. The slavomacedonian and greek peoples can only achieve victory while acting together. Divided, they can only suffer through defeats. For this reason the unity in the struggle of the peoples should be guarded as an apple of the eye, supported and strengthened steadily and on a daily basis. " Dimadick (talk) 07:55, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

The report on Partsalidis views below can be translated as "Mitsos Partsalidis [Note:His first name was Demetrios, Mitsos is a commonly used nickname for it], though admitting the existance of the causes resulting in the position of the 5th assembly, characterised this position a "failed effort of diversion against the divisive effort of titoists [Supporters of Josip Broz Tito]". He also defended the position on equivalence, presenting it as the only right solution. Finishing, he asked that the term "autonomy" should not be used by the Party for Slavomacedonians, because it could be misinterpretated. He stated that "this word within marxist terminology has the meaning of educational autonomy". Dimadick (talk) 08:07, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I think what people say about the KKE is that it recognised that there are [slav] Macedonian people in greece. That is why many people fought for the KKE. Because the Greeks finally recognised that there was a (slav) Macedonian minority in greek Macedonia. PMK1 (talk) 05:04, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

In response to this comment "(no ethnic Macedonians and certainly no ethnic Thracians!! And certainly many ethnicities." from above. Apparently there is check out this and this. Apparently there are "ethnic thracians". PMK1 (talk) 05:08, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Changing of personal names

It is not a fact that the Slavophone Greeks had Slavic names. What is a known fact is that there was never a law that forced people to change their surnames.
The supposed Law No 87/1936 which is widely circulated is proven to be a completely irrelevant law. Never the less Slav-Macedonians keep citing it and people assume that it actually exist.
I want argue any more about that since obviously it was propaganda information and it has been deleted. I consider as valid the information from Vlasidis/Karakostanoglou that they were unable to find any such law.
As for place names, every ethnic state in the region change the previously multinational names. That happened in Greece, Turkey, Bulgaria, and Yugoslavia (especially in what is now FYROM). In Greece the names that were changed were Slavic, Turkish (in the villages of the exchanged populations) and many perfectly good demotic Greek names that were considered peasant or “bad sounded”. (Actually the law refers to “ξενικά και κακόηχα ονόματα”)
(again Yannismarou did a great job with the law.Seleukosa (talk) 17:04, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

• Bottomline : This article is certainly POV. It needs to be merged with the article about the Slavophone Greeks and we should try to keep only the parts of it that seems to be correct. (If there are any.)

Seleukosa (talk) 17:04, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Listen before the balkan wars these "slavophone greeks" could be hardly more than grkomani, after gree took control of macedonia then they would at least have some righ tot call themselves greek. Most slavic peoples have slavic surnames, in greece they were all changed to greek ones. simple. Of course you find the information from Vlasidis/Karakostanoglou that there is no law. Why wouldn't you?PMK1 (talk) 21:21, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

There is no law, because there is no law PMK1! And it does matter, because it was your sole concrete argument that there was an official policy, concerning the surnames, and the use of the native language. And if the surnames were changed this does not mean that they changed forcibly. Slavic surnames and local toponymes changed also in Peloponnese without the local populations to be obliged to do so. I'll give you a personal example: my mother's village was named "Lykouresi", which is Turkish or Slavic (but definitely not Greek!); one day the villagers decided to change the name. I personally disagree, but this was their free decision! Now, coming to owr case: the argument that "I do not speak Greek and I cannot find the laws" is ridiculous. I do not ask you to read the laws; I just ask you to search your "sources", and find there any number, any sample, anything from the Greek legislature, something that indicates that there was an official Greek policy of discrimination. Even statements from Greek officials or criticisms from international agencies' officials of the time are welcome. At last, find something concrete, and do not repeat what the X or Z writer says without providing any evidence (Oh, excuse me! You provide non-existing laws!).

Your argument that in 1913 there were X people in Greec Macedonia with Slavic surnames, and in 1960 there were Z says nothing to me. Please, proof-read your sources and show me that this was the result of an official discriminatory policy. The case that mixed marriages took place, especially after 1923, and this is also a reason Slavic surnames reduced in number did ever occur in your mind? And, yes, as Seleykosa says, what are your sources that all these people had indeed Slavic surnames (if they ever existed in large numbers) the first place? I can also tell you that in 1800 there were X Slavic toponymes in Peloponnese, and in 2000 there are Z. This also proves nothing, because it was not the outcome of an official policy, but a voluntary decision of free-will people, maybe interesting for anthropology research but not for human rights violations' irresponsible declarations. When Greek populations came in Greece in 1923 many of them had Turkish surnames (the -oglou ones). Many changed them, but nobody forced them to.

So, I want some specific information about:

1) How many Slavic surnames and toponymes existed in Greek Macedonia in the beginning of the 20th century, and in what percentage they were changed

2) Most importantly, I want some kind of indications that this kind of changes took place in a forcible way. Greek laws, presidential decrees, ministerial decisions, local authorities decisions, international agencies' criticisms. All this stuff is acceptable. Just give me the numbers or the names and I'll check the content for you.

And something I told you previously: Are you going to explain me why is a discrimination the teaching of Greek in Greece?

And, an advice if I may to: Please, do not make projections in Greece of what may have happened in other Balkan states. All cases are not the same. Respectfully,--Yannismarou (talk) 07:24, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

of course they are not the same, the greeks are obviously the most democratic and fair nation on earth. If you are looking at the slavic names changed to greek ones this page Former toponyms of Greek places has much information. PMK1 (talk) 13:01, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I read the page, PMK1, and it is indeed very interesting, but the only thing that I did not manage to find is any kind of indication of an anti-"Aegean Macedonian" governmental policy. The change of toponyms-discriminatory policy connection made by you is at least far-fetched.

And something else: I do not like to retort to ironies, but PMK1, I kindly ask you not to put into my mouth things I never said. Fairness and democracy were never an argument of mine. So, please, stick to what I actually wrote. I am the last to deny the oppressiveness of the Metaxas regime, but this oppressiveness targeted not the minorities, in particular, but a large part of the population in general. My opinion on the article is already known: I believe it should be incorporated into the Slavophone Greeks or merged under a new article, titled per Fut. My opinion on the section in question as long as the article exists is also clear: Accuse the Greeks of what they actually did; not on what you would like them to have done.--Yannismarou (talk) 18:24, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Oaths

And something about the oaths: PMK1, since you accept that your sources mention that the oaths were taken only in 3 villages at a limited level, why didn't you make that clear in the main text, and instead, you used the inaccurate term "certain villages", despite the fact that you knew the exact number? With the terms and the wording you used, you gave the Wikipedia's reader the wrong impression that this was a widespread phenomenon.--Yannismarou (talk) 07:29, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Does it really matter. I could have written in some villages, or in a few villages, or in 3 villages it is not really that confusing. I am not claiming in most villages or in all villages, or in the majority of villages or even in many villages. PMK1 (talk) 02:43, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

It does matter, but I regard this issue as resolved, so let's just go on.--Yannismarou (talk) 19:27, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Heading

Per the example set in the Human rights of Kurdish people in Turkey articles (where there are obviously more concrete evidence of human rights' violations!) I change the POV heading of the current section to "Claims of persecution and discrimination").--Yannismarou (talk) 08:00, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

As in the kurdish episode the "claims of persecution" is turkish POV. The kurds are clearly persecuted and have been in the past. "Claims of Persecution" is greek POV, when clearly measures have been implemented against the Aegean Macedonians. Think of better wording, as i have provided an example. PMK1 (talk) 12:56, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

A Turkish POV introduced by a Greek, because I rewrote the section in the aforementioned article, and I entered the heading?! Very interesting, PMK1!!! I think Garnet, and the other Turkish editors would be very proud of me! Anyway, the heading Tassos proposed is IMO fine!--Yannismarou (talk) 18:13, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

World War II and Civil War

• "However this situation was completely reversed during World War Two and the Greek Civil War when the Slavic Macedonian culture and language were allowed to flourish."

I think we should be very very careful with such claims, and avoid to articulate them irresponsibly. What do you actually say here? That the Nazi occupation forces (the ones ruling Greece during World War II), while torturing the Greek populations, allowed the "Slav-Macedonians" to flourish?! Do you realize what are you implying here?! Or maybe that the ELAS and the DSE forces again allowed the "Macedonian" culture to flourish? But when this happened (if it happened indeed), another part of the population, not ideologically in accord with the members of the DSE (whether they were Greek or Slavic speaking) suffered. And this of course was the case vice versa in the places controlled by right-wings. So, are we taking sides in a civil war saying that the good DSE forces helped the "Macedonians", and the bad "right-wings" persecuted them, after we have implied that the Nazi occupation forces protected them, while they were persecuting Greek resistance at the same time? Something is wrong here!--Yannismarou (talk) 08:12, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

if you took the sentence to imply that the nazis protected macedonians, that can be reworded. They did not help the Macedonians. But during the Greek Civil War most of the Macedonians had aligned themselves with the KKE. They allowed Macedonian language schools, over 10,000 students went to these, macedonian theatres, macedonian books, Macedonian plays etc. The culture did flourish until the KKE lost the civil war.

This sentence : *"However this situation was completely reversed during the Greek Civil War when the Slavic Macedonian culture and language were allowed to flourish." could be more appropriate. PMK1 (talk) 12:54, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes i would have liked them to be fair. If you are talking in relation to the Learnign greek at night schools. Many macedonians were forced to learn greek at night schools, even the grandmothers who were in their 70s. but my sources are not good enough, because apparently there was no laws, at least that is what Vlasidis/Karakostanoglou say. There are many sources which back up the claims that i have made. PMK1 (talk) 02:38, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

PMK1, what does this mean "he was forced to ..."? When you are in Greece you are supposed to learn Greek. In the same way, when you live in fYROM you are supposed to know Slav-Macedonian. That is what I tell you. I was also forced to learn Greek! The opposite would be a clear discrimination: Not to allow the minorities to learn the language of the homeland so as to keep them fragmented and not incorporated into the society. At least, that is how I see things, but again me prespective maybe flawed.--Yannismarou (talk) 19:14, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you in greece you learn greek, etc. But forcing grandmothers who are in their 70s to learn Greek in night schools is discrimination. This is what people call discrimination, but in reference to children learning greek at primary school, that is unmentioned. Also in regards to education the non-education in the Macedonian language is also considered discriminatory. Minority Language rights should be respected. PMK1 (talk) 04:58, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Again, let's say it did happened, and let's say that it is a discrimination, what is the purpose served by doing something like that?! I must say I have heard a long series of discrimination cases during my life, but this is the first time I read something like that. And how can you force a grandmother in her 70s to learn Greek? Dragginf her?! I just know the cases of Cappadocian grandmothers who came in 1923 from Turkey, and they never learned the Greek language, speaking till their death Turkish; which was never a problem for the Greek state.

And your last argument that the non-teaching in public schools of the Slav-Macedonian language in Greek constitutes a discrimination legally does not stand. Is in fYROM every linguistic minority (except for the Albanians) taught its language in public schools?--Yannismarou (talk) 07:45, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

None ever forced grandmothers to attend night schools (sic!!!).Facts are different. Let’s use common sense.

In the 1930 less than 10% of the Greek population regularly attended school. Most of the population could barely read and write. (Quite common in entire Europe in the same period.).The elderly and especially the rural population of Greece were almost illiterate.

So you want us to believe that the Greek state forced a small linguistic minority to attend schools and within a few years it manages to transform an illiterate population -including the elderly (!!) - in to pure Greek speakers. That’s why the slavophone grandmothers learn how to speak Greek!! And since Kathareuousa was the official Greek of the period the few Slavophone grandmothers actually speak Katahreusousa Greek (!). That’s what they learned after all.

Seleukosa (talk) 08:08, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

No, they attended night school to learn the language, not to read or write. It was common practise and many people from children, to adults to grandmothers were sent to night schools. @ Yannismarou, i do believe that most of the minorities have their mother language taught to some degree at public schools. I am aware that the teaching of Albanian, Turkish, Romany, Aromanian, Serbo-Croatian (for Serbs/Bosniaks) occur where there are minority language students. These ethnic groups (along with Macedonians) constitute 99% of all the ethnic groups in the Republic. I am not bieng pro-Macedonian or anything, but generally minority rights are very good. You also have misinterpreted me, the non teaching of the mother language (macedonian) can be considered discriminatory. Especially when the minority rights in europe are supposed to be the best in the world. PMK1 (talk) 07:05, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

This is what you chose to believe. Not real facts or evidence. Especially the part about "night schools". (probably people were working during the day and had only time to study at night.I asume!)Seleukosa (talk) 13:28, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

What nonsense, what I chose to believe. What are you talking about the minority rights or the night schooling? Why dont you read this interveiw of a man who was actually around when these things supposedly happened. PMK1 (talk) 22:26, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Interesting interview. However one comment:"If you were heard speaking Macedonian by the police or Korofilatsi as they called them in Macedonian, you were taken and punished." Hardly a Macedonian term. That would be the Greek Gendarmerie, "Elliniki Chorofylaki". In mainstream Greek an individual member was a "Chorofylakas", plural "Chorofylakes". However in the village dialects the plural was often rendered "Chorofylakoi" (χωροφυλάκοι, See: Example in an old song), "Chorofylatsoi" (χωροφυλάτσοι,See:A Worker's Song"), etc. Dimadick (talk) 07:45, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Maybe it is this form of Macedonian. To try an deny there are no greek influences would be ridiculous. The Aegean Macedonian dialects have greek influences, "Korofilatsi". Especially when refering to a government associated body, no? PMK1 (talk) 11:59, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Civil War aftermath

• "Many of the people who fled during the Greek Civil War were stripped of their Greek Citizenship and Property."

I think this was the case not only for the Greek Slavophones who fled from Greece, but all the exiled communists lost their citizenship, no matter if they belonged to a minority or not. And this is one of the greatest dramas and wounds of the modern Greek state; wounds not yet fully healed.--Yannismarou (talk) 19:30, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

yes i agree with you greeks, macedonians, vlachs basically every one who fought for communism lost citizenship. There is no reason why this shouldnt be written. The drama is that "greeks by genus" were alowed to return in 1982. Those who were not greeks by genus (Aegean Macedonians), did not have their citizenship returned nor their property. PMK1 (talk) 04:55, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

List of prominent "Aegean Macedonians"

I think we should be more careful, when we form such lists. There is no reason to include people there without being sure about how they self-identify themselves, or when it is obvious that they do not self-identify themselves in the way we want them to. In Daicos' article I read the provided link, and he states that he is proud to be Greek!

With Novakis, we have no verifiable source, saying he self-identifies himself as ethnic Macedonian. And as far as a communist leader (Tsapas I think) is concerned, I go to the relevant article, and I see no reference provided. I also have doubts about Steve Stavro,

For the time being, I remove Daios and Novakis, and I kindly request whoever adds names to this list to be more careful. I'm sure there are enough prominent "Aegean Macedonians| around the world. No reason to add persons who do not self-identify themselves as such.--Yannismarou (talk) 07:55, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

As I see Misirkov's national identity is also disputed. Not enough ground to include him in this list.--Yannismarou (talk) 08:32, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

And who's on earth is Steve Delianis?! If he is notable, why do I find nothing in google? Removed.--Yannismarou (talk) 08:35, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Did "agean macedonians" exist before skopje?

Don t run and revert me or erase this section. It s been a long time since I abandonned trying to reason nationalists (on all sides of the borders). And it s been a long time since I last considered expressing a POV on wiki about this subject. But I ve been reading a book lately, it s called: "Twice a stranger" by Bruce Clark who is a journalist (for the daily telegraph) specialised in near east and the southern balkans.He is from Northern Ireland, so "neutral" as one can be.

Greek and bulgarian "nationalists" or "patriots" (call them what you wish) whould often tease the "slavs from macedonia" nationalists (...not the albanians,that is) that such thing as "agean macedonians" did not exist and that if anything, they were "bulgarians". Moreover the seemed to be able to cite-source their POV (with historians,ethnographs , political analysts or simple travellers). And they took a lot of comfort in reminding that ottoman censuses mentioned greeks,jews and bulgarians..not macedonians. Also, they took even more comfort in reminding that "agean macedonians" were never "sourced" anywhere.

Bruce Clark knows more about southern balkans than all wikipedias altogether. Moreover, his interest is focused on the peoples themselves and their lifes and cultures and languages/dialects rather than on the "political" or "historic" issues.

I couldn t help come and dicuss the issue with you, here, after reading his book where he mentions BULGARIANS, GREEKS, JEWS and TURKS in the region of greek macedonia.

So my question is as follows: are "agean macedonians" the same thing as Bruce s clark s Bulgarians from greek macedonia? If "agean macedonians" really exist/existed why were they never mentioned in non-skopje sources and especially by people like bruce clark who FOCUSED on the peoples and their cultures? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.165.200.231 (talk) 17:54, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, the fact is that this is valid not only for Greek (Aegean), but for Vardarska Macedonia as well. All sources, including Ottoman censuses, speak about Greeks and Bulgarians only. --Laveol ^T 18:50, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

I was expecting more answers... Moreover,when i read that IMRO manifesto stated that the goal was to unite all ethnicities of macedonia region in one rebel movement "without being interpreted as that of bulgaria", or that we could "subsequently unite with bulgaria" , even that early appearance of the word "macedonia" was clearly not intended to designate a new ethnicity (the suposed macedonian one).Not to mention the language was bulgarian. I am not saying the citizens of fyrom don t have the right to self determination, i m just saying that, obviously, aegean macedonians is a term that shouldnt be attributed to more than thos 7000 lads, that voted for rainow party.

Thessaloniki is a big metropolis with a well recorded history.no macedonian ethnicities have ever been recorded there.let s not make up stories shall we. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.165.200.231 (talk) 22:41, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Why is this article still here?

I'm calling for this article to be deleted or at the very minimum merged with Slavophone Greeks as soon as possible. This is stalling for quite some time for no reason.--   Avg    17:15, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Why has it not happened yet?. By the way, a recent short documentary (in Zoungla) reveals Gruevski's grandfather as a Greek of Macedonia and nothing else, see [6] and decide. Politis (talk) 17:49, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

LOL, that's hilarious if it's true but it also goes to show how fluid ethnicity can be in an area like Macedonia, no? 3rdAlcove (talk) 23:41, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

The merge did not take place, because the discussion in Slavophone Greeks seems to have stalled. Therefore, I think the talk page of the aforementioned article is the best place to revive this discussion. About Gruevski: What is the difference, my friend Politis, if his father is Greek or "Macedonian"? Yves Leterme's father was a Walloon, but Walloons regard him as their worse pro-Flanders enemie! And who had told me that Sesseli has Croatian blood? Therefore, if Zoungla says that his father was Greek is unimportant. What matters is how his father self-identified himsel (something I suggest we'll never learn) and how Gruevski presents him. If these things have also any importance at all.--Yannismarou (talk) 08:40, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree with both of you. By the way 3rdAlcove, in Skopje they make a local pizza called 'Macedonian Pizza', as for its ingredients... they change 'according to what is available'. No kidding! Politis (talk) 14:25, 18 July 2008 (UTC)